Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it goes like this:

Heroes and Villains and CIty of Titans originally started as one project.
Due to some ideology differences they split into two groups, both using Titan City as their main city.

I don't see there being any issues quite frankly. The games aren't going to be copies of each other and I personally prefer the direction CoT is heading.

Hello there, Psikon here, though over on HaV I am volunteer Lore Writer Helix_Group. I came over here to introduce myself and show support to you guys. Let me give you my take on this: As far as I personally know, we at HaV bear no ill will to CoT or your Devs. We've acknowledge that you guys are doing your own thing and we're happy that you've progressed so much. I even hope that if or when HaV gets up and running, both games could do a sort of crossover event sometime. It would be really cool. But reading this thread (and especially that comment by Metal Mountain) I'm a little hurt by your attitudes towards us. Just because we're a little late on the development path doesn't invalidate our efforts. We're just as seriously devoted to keeping Paragon's legacy alive as you are. And we especially don't talk about you guys behind your backs. I'd expect this sort of thing from Warcraft or SWTOR or even LoL communities, but not from the CoX community. We're better than that. We rose above the traditional PvE vs. PvP vs. RP squabbles that other MMO communities always fall into and I thought that that mentality would last between both projects. But now I feel like you guys just look down on us over at HaV and it's not cool. That's not what CoX community was about.

/sigh I'm sorry to everyone in here if I sound rude. I really would like to extend an olive branch (though I think tacos are a better offering of peace) here. I don't really know what these "ideological differences" were, but it shouldn't divide us. We're still the CoX community. Two sides of the same coin. We shouldn't view our respective projects like DC and Marvel, but rather like 1602 Marvel and Ultimate Marvel. Classic DC and New 52. Same place, same time, but different course of events that shaped the universe around them.

I am happy to work with and hopefully play beside many of you in the coming years, but if we keep up this Us vs. Them thing, we'll be no better than any other MMO community out there. And no one wants that. Why be like any other MMO? We're the legacy of Paragon! One Community, Two Projects, One Goal!

So what say you, Heroes of Titan City? Will you partake of my taco of brotherhood and end these silly prejudices?

/offertacoplatter

Darth Fez wrote:

Psikon wrote:
/sigh I'm sorry to everyone in here if I sound rude. I really would like to extend an olive branch (though I think tacos are a better offering of peace) here. I don't really know what these "ideological differences" were, but it shouldn't divide us. We're still the CoX community. Two sides of the same coin. We shouldn't view our respective projects like DC and Marvel, but rather like 1602 Marvel and Ultimate Marvel. Classic DC and New 52. Same place, same time, but different course of events that shaped the universe around them.
I am happy to work with and hopefully play beside many of you in the coming years, but if we keep up this Us vs. Them thing, we'll be no better than any other MMO community out there. And no one wants that. Why be like any other MMO? We're the legacy of Paragon! One Community, Two Projects, One Goal!

"Us vs Them."
The interesting thing here, Psikon, is that there was no 'Us vs Them' thing in this thread until you brought it here. If you don't want an 'Us vs Them' thing then, please, don't bring it here. All we were doing here (Metal Mountain's post aside, I don't know who he is or what his beef is with HaV) is trying to explain why both project have a Titan City. If you want to help HaV and keep the CoH community together, help people understand the differences (and similarities) between the two projects. Coming here and accusing us of having a bad attitude is not the way to make me feel like I'd be welcome at Heroes and Villains. In the future, remember that it's rather difficult to take a diplomatic effort seriously if you disrespect the other party before extending your olive branch.

True. I did have a it of an overreaction, but Metal's comment was just quite a sting, especially as I am a volunteer who takes his contributions to the project very seriously. I should not have let one bad apple spoil the bunch. I am sorry. Also, you guys would be welcomed at HaV. Apparently we share a few forum members already.

Personally, I am currently involved with BOTH projects. However since I am involved with areas not fully underway yet, I have time to comment on both.

There's plenty of room in the pond IMHO. Honestly, when I discovered both projects I decided to hedge my bets and support both since I know a little bit about the gaming industry and how Real Life works. So I threw my flag to both camps. I honestly hope that both go well since it will give players a real choice. They can go with whichever game they feel best makes them happy.

Choice is a good thing.

Grayfigure wrote:

Psikon, thanks for coming over to put in a few words of support. I can understand the gut reaction to defend what you love, and I can take your comments in the spirit of how they were meant: hey, we can both co-exist, shouldnt be an issue. We all react hastily sometimes, it happens. I have nothing but hope that, with those from the same CoH community backing HaV as well, it will stand as a testament to what a community can truly achieve when they stand together. If anything in my post seems to alarm or demean, please understand that I did not mean it that way, and Metal Mountain's comments besides, i hope that nothing in this thread strikes you similarly. It comforts me to see that the same community I'm proud to be apart of is also spearheading HaV as well. It means that great things are on the horizon for our community. Great things indeed.

Thank you for the kind words and I again apologize for my initial post as being confrontational.

City of Titans is happy to share the name of the in-game city with Heroes and Villains.

Of course, send me a a private message about it and we can begin, or maybe organize another RP Thread! :)

I spent some time reading around on the HaV forums, and I was pretty turned off by the negativity towards CoT. From a supposed volunteer who left CoT to work on HaV who bases CoT any chance he can, and Golden Girl. This post she made really irked me..it was in response to a member of HaV asking about CoT...

Golden Girl:

"They're two separate projects by two separate groups of CoH players - HaV is creating a spiritual successor to CoH - not sure what the other group are doing."

Right...this is the main reason I'm supporting CoT instead of HaV. Nothing but negativity and false information over there.

[b](Please note that I am not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to take sides, nor am I privy to the likely vast amount of background to this situation.)[/b]

The main problem I have is not with the direction of either project, or the people involved, but the fact that there are two projects in the first place. Most people only have room in their schedule and wallets for one MMO I would assume, therefore if both projects get off the ground people will be "choosing sides". Perhaps both of them can take in enough money to keep going and keep growing, but they'll both be taking in less money simply because there are two games going for something relatively similar. Less money means less content, slower content, and/or worse content, not to mention greater vulnerability. Let me paint a ridiculous picture for you:

Let's go back to when WoW first came out, but instead of one MMO, it was two. They were each unique in their own ways, different battle systems, different engines, different stories, but they all had the same basic fantasy stuff. Blizzard still had the same employee pool to work from, so they had to split the teams up. Both release near each other, and both are successful (because it's Blizzard). Some people manage to pay for and play both, and have a good time doing so, but the vast majority simply chose one and stuck with it. Suddenly the line dividing them is deeper than the one between Horde and Alliance, it is a line between games. Perhaps this strategy allows Blizzard to catch more players than a single WoW would, as they can hit slightly different segments, but the cost of maintaining and developing two WoWs far outstrips the extra income. Further, as one would imagine from having a split employee pool, both games ship with and create less content than the single WoW. This makes both games less compelling, and subscribers on both games tend to lose interest. Splitting into two games hurts both games, and causes them both to wither and die.

I'm sure I don't have to point out my meaning in any of that, however, let me show you all a list of possible outcomes:

1. Both projects never see the light of day: Perhaps neither team had the staffing required to make it through, they couldn't both secure the required funding, or some other catastrophe happened. Regardless of what happens, the greatest chance of success lies in unity, something that this split harms.

2. Only one project makes it out, or both make it out but only one succeeds: Congratulations, we have a successor! However, the split caused thousands of hours of volunteer time to be effectively wasted on something that was doomed to failure. That time and energy could have been used to make the one MMO better, but that chance is forever lost. The quality and potential of the MMO has been hurt, thus placing it in a weaker position on the market and making it a lesser game than it could have been.

3. Both make it out successfully: Players get to choose which one they want to play, because expecting everyone to play both sides is unrealistic. Each game has a smaller player base than one game would. As we've already observed, the potential for animosity is real. Humans do try to take sides naturally after all. Both games get less money than they would have as the only game. Fewer people can be hired. Less server power and bandwidth is available. Less content can be made. Quality and deadlines can and will slip. The problems one indie superhero MMO will encounter are only made worse by the reduced staffing and funds the two will have. Both are more likely to die, sooner, and having worse content than they would have as one.

Let me know if I've missed anything.

I've also heard it thrown about that some people may be worried about CoT failing, and that failure making the whole idea of a CoH successor unviable. Well if that's what you're worried about, then leaving it with fewer people is a horrible way to ensure that it doesn't fail. The best way to ensure that a dam doesn't break isn't to split the team and resources building a second dam, it's to have them working on the first dam.

[b]tl;dr The mere fact that CoT and HaV exist hurts both of them in terms of staffing and funding, making both less likely to be the successor we want.[/b]

Kill-Term wrote:

tl;dr The mere fact that CoT and HaV exist hurts both of them in terms of staffing and funding, making both less likely to be the successor we want.

This.

And the odds of extracting ourselves from situation like this without some sort of acrimony are slim. Inter-factional conflicts, historically, always seem to be the bloodiest.

If I may quote from the great poet Neil Peart:

It ought to be second nature
At least, that's what I feel
Now I lay me down in Dreamland
I know perfect's not for real
I thought we might get closer
But I'm ready to make a deal.

Zanton wrote:

Kill-Term wrote:
Cut for space
Now, I understand that both teams want to create a spiritual successor to CoH/V. My main question is, why not work together to create a single hyper-MMO with enough awesome to burn out the sun? Not directed at you, Kill-Term, but to the devs in general. Why not? I mean, I get that it's not as easy as just up and doing it, but still, even if you don't, there must be some degree of inter-game activity. Maybe do it like the two companies that run TERA Online in the EU and NA zones?

The two groups originally started as one group. There was a clear difference in style, vision for the project, and ways about doing so. GG split from the rest of the group ,who became MWM, and worked on her own with HaV. Both sides have clear differences, and some members on both sides fiercely hate the other.

There is chance that they could rejoin and work together again, but it has been around a year since this happened. I know some members of MWM said they would be willing to bring GG into the fold, given some compromises, but there is no guarantee that this would ever come to fruition.

RottenLuck wrote:

It comes down to this.
H&V wants to keep the core mechanics as close to City of Heroes as possible with out infringing IP issues. So basically a Clone of City of Heroes. So you have the basic same experience in H&V as you would CoH. With named Contacts and Supergroup bases. Areas for PVP separated from PVE Areas.
City of Titans going to build in a similar style, but is willing to change modify or build new features and mechanics that City of Heroes didn't have or couldn't have. A good example is the PVP system ideas for CoT. Building powers from the start for a PVP mechanic even if it only used for PvE. Or the Player House / Private base / Super group base system. As well as other features.
Those are vastly different views. Both are good views but different directions. So it's recreating CoH as much as possible. Or Creating the next generation Superhero MMO Inspired by CoH.

I will support and play any and all that provide me with the CoH-flavored experience and with some assurance that the game will continue to operate as long as it can raise money for hosting. Fully-proprietary games that are operated solely as a means of extracting money from players are no longer acceptable to me.

I will never again devote time, effort nor cash to a game operated by people who will shut it down just to show who's boss.

Thus far the MWM crew have demonstrated that they understand how to be gracious. That's one of the things I need to see to be enthusiastic about the product.

My take:

From what I understand, HaV is saying that the "temporary exclusives" given by the kickstarter is unethical. Bonuses given out for being at the right place at the right time before everyone else is as well.

Now first off.. It's just cosmetics. Step back. Take a deep breath. Cosmetics. No real impact on the game, nothing that says "HA! I can beat you because I have this!". Just. Cosmetics. When you start arguing over cosmetics, you've pretty much lost all respect from me. (That being said, I do agree with people in CO saying that they should all be given the costume pieces unlocked from power replace devices that were removed from the game years back.)

Secondly, for the most part they'll be released into the game after a set amount of time anyway. So.. the unethical statement is null and void.

There will be those who cannot support their own, they can only tear down the other. Leave the tearing on other forums, it is not welcome here.

One of the reasons I joined these boards was the overall positive message from the devs and backers. It was also why I became a backer myself. This is the first kickstarter I have supported. I believe in the message that much.

Lets not change that =)
I fully plan to support any of the projects that remain positive and supportive of the entire community. I just don't want to see a "well support us OR them"... because I will always choose to support the group that doesn't make me try and choose them at the cost of another group.

MWM the city itself was always going to be named Titan City. Like an earlier post stated this was chosen before the split of Plan Z and the Phoenix Project. The name of the Game however wasn't chosen till later.

Personal "nails against chalkboard" bit. I hate it when people say that H&V began as the same project, which split. Golden Girl quit, and decided on making her own project. There was no mass exodus of people, no divisive point, no forcing of anyone out. She quit and decided to make her own project.