I pledge "fly free" during the Kickstarter campaign, and am looking forward to downloading the game when it launches. I'm also a big collector, though; and I sure would like to have a copy on disc, complete with box, manuals; whatever comes with retail copies (assuming there will be retail copies; and I think it would be a mistake for there not to be). It would be nice if this stuff was offered on the cheap for those of us who are already getting the game. Since the retail package will probably come with one month free, the cost of a month subscription could be factored into it.
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While we do plan to have a physical box, the reality of the costs of producing them and shipping them out (and the hazards of having to store an inventory) are such that we're not going to be making any promises of special discounts on them. We may well already be selling them, when we do so, at as close to cost as we can manage while still meeting tax obligations and the like. I am not positive we'll be doing that, either, but physical products cost money to physically manufacture. We will keep your request in mind, however.
Our primary expectation is to make money off of people playing, rather than buying initial access to, the game. We will strive to keep the physical-stuff collectors in mind, though! We aim to serve our audience as best we can in as many ways as we can without sacrificing quality of our main focus: the game itself.
[color=#ff0000]Business Manager[/color]
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Well there's always adding a Donation button to this site and having the kickstarter backers be given the option to donate themselves up to the physical copy reward section. Alternatively when this game is set for release you could offer a special collectors edition for the kickstarting community to be able to buy. I get that people wanted to donate but didn't have enough time / you guys want everyone to have the same amount of access to everything as anyone else, but the guys who backed you made this game come closer to reality. More power to them.
"You don't want to know what happens after I put on the goggles" - Chandra Nalaar
With all the updates you inevitably have to do to keep the game running well, the read-only CD physical disk and printed paper game instruction manual will be obsolete like a moth after the game ships. I see no reason to make those except that they give the game an in-store presence in places like Best Buy etc. That said, I think CoV was THE LAST game I ever actually bought in a place like that, and that was like a decade ago by now. I could definitely see making physical swag like mousepads, mugs, t-shirts, stuffed plushies, action figures, Heroclix toys, etc, but the install disk and manual are A) not really what I would call "collectibles" in the first place and B) not things I personally think I need or would worry about.
On the other hand, if you want to put some thingy in the source code that allows you to make a "backup disk" to re-install the game or something I don't see why I wouldn't want that. You could then download the game on one computer and then make a disk and install the game on another computer, then you have two copies of the game on different computers, for example (laptop and tower) AND the ability to recover from catastrophic losses of data down the road. Then you could periodically burn a new disk when you feel like the updates are taking too long. It might also be nice to be able to put an up-to-date install program on a thumb drive I guess.
Frankly, I think if you're going to sell anything in stores, you should market it in comicbook and game stores, big box stores like Best Buy, and maybe bookstores and just make the physical object that get's sold a giftcard that contains an activation code and some amount of pre-purchased Stars to go with it or something. I think the cheapest form of container to sell a disk in is the simple CD-envelope, but those tend to make the game seem very cheap and small-time, to me, especially when there's no other advertizing for the game in the store. Or, you could go with the full cereal-box sized box, but those feel like a ripoff when you get them opened because all they have in there is the CD and manual, which stuff is WAY out of date like 3 months after the initial roll out, so that is a lot of money to print up and has a short shelf life like fresh produce, which is a losing combination.
With a gift-card type of arrangement, you could have cheap cardboard standees and posters in stores just as ads and then have the cards available at the counter or attached to the advertisement itself. I guess a cardboard standee with a supply of install disks in it wouldn't look bad either, but the disks themselves would still end up getting very dated very fast, so you'd basically be buying a disk that installs the software that downloads the latest version of the game, and instructs the customer to go to the website and make an account, and maybe has a unique promo code for free stuff that you get for buying the disk. That doesn't really give the customer anything that a gift-card can't give them. You just have the URL for the install on the card and then tell them to enter their card numbers when they set up their account. You also have the added security that the store has to "arm" the card when they buy it.
Then again maybe gift-cards are more expensive than CDs to make at this point, I wouldn't know.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
The "simplest" way to accomplish this is to just put everything they need within the main installation directory so you can just copy that one and have it run without needing an explicit install.
I have nothing against MWM making physical "swag" related to CoT to sell. But I would really, really highly suggest that they not bother wasting any time or resources on trying to produce a bunch of "retail boxes" to go out to brick-n-mortar stores. That distribution model is simply obsolete and would likely be far more costly to both MWM and the players than it would ever be worth.
Like Radiac mentioned I believe CoV was also probably one of the last computer games I ever bought as a "retail box". Anything printed (whether it be a burned DVD or paper instructions) will be obsolete almost the second it's generated. We now live in a world where a very large percentage of the potential playerbase of this game will be able to download this game in a matter of a few hours (if not a few minutes). Yes it's always possible a few folks who still live with download quotas may have a problem with this in 2016. But I imagine a few special exceptions could be made to snail-mail these folks some bare bones DVD-Rs for an initial install. Beyond that having the game on "physical media" is almost pointless for most people even as an "emergency backup".
As fun as it might be to hold a retail box of CoT in my hands for a minute or two I could very easily live without it in the long run.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I buy physical games way more than downloaded because in the event something happens to a console or account-based BS, I still have my game. Plus, especially with games ported to next-gen, there are ALWAYS emulation problems. Persona 4 (the Playstation 2 on PSN version) has one of the worst that can scare the hell out of you if you don't know it exists.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
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I'm fairly sure you're talking about console games. I'm talking more or less strictly about PC games. The "retail market" for PC games in brick-n-mortar stores effectively died 5+ years ago. As far as we know CoT will not be console-based (it'll be primarily Win, Mac and/or Linux based).
But it's actually fairly clear that even consoles are moving towards a "discless" future. There's already talk that the next gen versions of the PS and X-box are planning to go discless. Even if it takes another 5 or 10 years to finally happen I would prepare yourself for a physical media-less world in terms of all computer games.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Oh yes, I'm speaking strictly console. I haven't bought something for PC (Expansions do not count) since..
...when did DoW II Retribution come out again?
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Ya, I would HIGHLY suggest not going the physical disc route. Everything is online. Just look at Steam. A big reason why it's the favorite is that it is an all in one gaming platform that you can get games in matters of seconds and no physical items are necessary. You search the online store, purchase a game, download, and it's saved to your steam account. So you can go to any computer with Steam and download the game as many times as you want. There's no need for disc's whatsoever. To make it even more apparent that the world is going discless, the new MacBook's are coming without disc drives. CoH was also the last game(PC) I bought a disc for. I believe going the disc route would be a step back, and would waste a lot of time and resources.
I agree with others that if there were going to be any physical items, it should be in the form of collectibles. Such as figurines. I would love to see 3D printed action figures of Anthem, or whatever other heroes/villains you guys come up with. I am very much looking forward to the mousepad from the KS. If you're going to spend money on something, I would suggest using it towards promoting the game in ads, and just having a QR code that links to the website where you can download the game server. That's just my 2 cents
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
I would suggest just keeping it all in a digital format for the time being. don't waste resources on "physical" items until such time that the game is able to support such items of collectability.
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I agree with pretty much everyone here. Don't waste time putting game disks on store shelves, but other kinds of physical swag (CoT shirts, CoT posters, CoT toilet paper, CoT breakfast cereal, CoT - the Flamethrower!) could be cool once the game is up and running.
I think I had mentioned it in another thread, but making the image of a "box" available could allow those that really want the box on their shelf to print out and assemble one.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
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I like that Idea!
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
For those people who really need the full "old school" experience MWM could eventually provide *.iso files to download so that you can burn your own DvDs to put into the box that you made. You see kids, back in the old days people used to sell computer programs recorded on plastic discs and you'd buy them in these standalone buildings called 'stores' made of brick and mortar. This was of course before Skynet made it mandatory to have micro iPhones implanted into everyone's head to maintain permanent connectivity to the Internet and the human GPS monitoring systems...
On a slightly more serious note it might be funny to get a 3D printed version of a "retail box" for CoT. It'd be the perfect marriage of a modern technology being used to simulate a relatively obsolete one. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That does prompt me to wonder how costly it is to create 3D models. It would be an interesting form of merchandising to provide 3D models people can print out (which I'm certain has been mentioned two or three times in other threads).
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
You mean 3D prints of people's characters? Yeah it's been mentioned in this forum before. :)
I'm all for it and I figure in a few more years the combination of high quality prints with relatively low prices will make it possible for CoT in some form or fashion, even if it's organized as some kind of third party scenario.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
The price of 3D printers has gone down immensely, you can get some nice printers for like $500(at least on kickstarter lol). That's a great way to make profit. Create the 3d drawings of the will-be famous heroes/villains, game box, candle holders, coasters, pins, badges. Buy the machine to own it and make a bunch of items, can anyone say $$$$$
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
And then for the slightly older players, we can hold up our 3 1/2", 5 1/4" and 8 inch floppy disks and say that even before they thought of shiny plastic discs, we had to use these!
And some computers even made you try and use this: Holds up a cassette and player. But then no one here would admit to being as old as that, eh?
Challenge accepted! *raises right hand*
It was in high school, in a computer science class, but we did have a game on one of those cassettes!
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
Hmm. so.. the audio cassettes recorded Modem Noise? :)
In a manner of speaking. They data needed to record the programming was stored on "reel to reel" magnetic tape, which in this case just happened to be an audio cassette tape. Using PLAY to output the program from the tape back into the computer was not a 100% reliable operation.
[img]http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jasonevangelho/files/2014/05/Compact_Cassette_Maxell_XL-II_90_IMG_8469.jpg[/img]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
The number of times I had to manually stop/start the cassette player because the Remote Control part of the lead[1] had gone dodgy is unbelievable. I am surprised that I worked out the correct places for it as well.
[1] I had an external cassette deck for my computer, as it came with a built in disk drive. So the remote control lead provided the same functionality as if it was built directly into the computer. Not that the floppy disk drive was any more reliable.
And I just realised that I spelt disc the way in which it was spelt for the Amstrad range of computers....
What?? No punch cards?
Did that!!
My high school didn't have a computer, but we did live right near to the air force base (CFB Cold Lake). We were given permission to use their mainframe to learn Programming in Grade 12 (1977 for me). We got a Punch Card machine in the school and started to learn: Fortran. My final project was a picture of Snoopy dancing and a One Year Calendar under the picture. An insane amount of cards, but it worked. DO NOT EVER drop those cards!!!
When I went to college and they wanted to teach me Basic as in intro to Programming, I laughed in their face.
I have to admit though, learning how to write programs that can only fit onto a punch card, taught me how to write a very TIGHT piece of software.
Learning how to code in Machine Language and Hex was lot of fun. I don't ever want to do it again. Ever.
My first job out of High School was running tape and paper for a direct-mail company. By which I mean feeding an IBM 360 with reels of magnetic tape and Boxes of tractor-feed paper into a chain-printer the size of a refrigerator. Had to wear ear-protection, since the thing was so noisy.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I've played games that were cassette based on both an Apple II and a Commodore 64. They only held about 100kB of data and I remember them being very slow (i.e. taking like 5 or 10 minutes to load something that was probably only a few steps more complicated than Pong).
I've been involved with several "modernization" projects over the years where a large government program will basically start from scratch and rehost all of its software and hardware technology with completely new implementations all with the goal of supporting the function of the original program with more supportable systems. One of those about 12 years ago had us replace a system that was still using a CDC Cyber 175 mainframe computer built circa 1972. It was kind of mind blowing at the time because I was completely used to what was then current technology (computers from about 2002-04) and then I suddenly had to learn how to operate a system that was first powered up back when I was still in diapers.
This "machine" was a classic mainframe in the sense that it took up a room about maybe 4,000 sq ft with a floor beneath it that handled all of its AC and chilled water infrastructure. The code it ran was written in JOVIAL which was as you'd expect a nightmare to deal with. We reduced what that monster did down to a couple of 19-inch racks of SGI equipment. Today I'd bet we could host what that system still does on a mid-range laptop lol.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It's been proven by now that the game Magic: the Gathering is Turing-complete, meaning that it could be used as a form of processor of data, if one were to use various cards and so forth to represent that. Thus we could write a programming language that would allow us to program an MMO like CoT using only Magic cards and the rules of the game.
That or you could try to run it on people's smartphones. Either one of those is a good platform.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
If someone wants an idea how the market is going...
I finally bought Skyrin for my PC. It came in a lovely DVD box, but within it was just the Steam unlock code. Not even a disk.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Strangely enough though: I bought Deus Ex Human Revolution (which came out around the same time as Skyrim), and although it had a Steam activation code, and you needed to install steam, it still installed the full game for me.
Then again, at least it wasn't Metal Gear Solid 5: Which came with a DVD disc... which just had an 8 meg installer for Steam on it.
Part of this can also be down to how large the game is. I am sure that people remember the good old disc swapping from yesteryear when it came to installing games, and how one scratch can ruin your *entire* day. And as the largest capacity for DVD tops out at 9GB (ish) for a single sided disc, it is no wonder why companies are heading the way of digital distribution as game sizes get larger and larger over time due to peoples (developers and consumers) desire for better looking/sounding games (actual game mechanics doesn't require that stuff *par se* although they can open up some other alternative gameplay options)
This takes me back!
In high school, my best friend and I had the same computer... a Timex Sinclair 1000 (with a whopping 8kb of RAM) and we would load/save program noises over the phone as an ersatz modem.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
My first PC ever. Connect it to the TV antenna "port" using an adapter, plugging the cassette player/recorder into the Mic and speaker ports, and you were good to go.
how I miss those days. . . . . NOT!
I like my Terabyte hard drive, 64 bit OS, 4K graphics with a million colors. Them good ol' days of hacking away at your programs can stay right where they are; in the past.
I don't miss programming, I really don't. I'm just happy I don't have to de-bug 10K plus lines of code anymore.
One scratch? I had a floppy disk version of Windows 95. 38 3.5" floppies. Disk 18 was unreadable.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
We had cards about 7" by 3" with several rows of all the possible characters. You crossed through the character you wanted with a pencil and then fed a stack of cards through a graphite sensitive reader.
This was around 1977/78 at school.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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LOAD "*",8,1
LOADING *
READY.
RUN
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
[code]SYS 64738[/code]
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Yea, what was titanfall, 68GB or somewhere around there? Gonna need quite a few floppy disks for that..
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
I know people who have faulty disc 3 or 4 (depending on version) of Final Fantasy 7.... which means that you can play most of the game, invest quite a bit of time into it, and BAMN... no go for the rest of the game.
And as the games are no longer manufactured... welcome to ebay enjoy your stay... the game you buy might work on one system and not another (I know of one speedrunner who has 4 copies of disc 3 for Final Fantasy 7. Only one of them works on his console whilst all 4 work on a friends console just fine)