I couldn't reply to either of these posts (http://cityoftitans.com/forum/heroes-you-love-hate http://cityoftitans.com/forum/heroes-you-love-dont) due to wording in the titles, so I made my own.
So I mostly played as a hero for COX, but I would really like to explore what MWM comes up with for villain protagonists. I can think of many bad guys from different games and movies that you were cheering when they were defeated, but im having a hard time wrapping my mind around what aspects of a villainous character, would drive them to loathe any particular hero. Obviously stopping my bank robbery hurts my checkbook, but with heroes, there always seems to be a moral aspect to stopping a villain.What would a villain find morally infuriating with a hero?
Any thoughts?
charlieranger tried to start a thread and I couldn't reply to it.
I suspect it might be because it had the word Hate in the title.Heroes you love to hate
So I mostly played as a hero for COX, but I would really like to explore what MWM comes up with for villain protagonists. I can think of many bad guys from different games and movies that you were cheering when they were defeated, but im having a hard time wrapping my mind around what aspects of a villainous character, would drive them to loathe any particular hero. Obviously stopping my bank robbery hurts my checkbook, but with heroes, there always seems to be a moral aspect to stopping a villain.What would a villain find morally infuriating with a hero?Any thoughts?
Here's my response that I couldn't post on his thread:
Most villains probably consider heroes an occupational hazard and not much more, but if they keep seeing the same hero over and over it get's personal.
Some villains have revenge as their main motive from the start. Like Harry Osborn when he became the green Goblin.
and way too often we see villains who had personal relationships with the hero like family members (the Juggernaut) or who shared an origin (Black Adam) or who became supervillains because of the hero's actions (the Joker) or failures (Two Face).
finally there's The Punisher or Steel Head, vigilantes who kill instead of just beating up and arresting criminals. I'm sure that really gets on the boss' nerves.
I'm reminded of Garth Ennis when I read this post.
http://hawkscomics.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/does-garth-ennis-hate-super-heroes.html
http://www.comicvine.com/garth-ennis/4040-40644/forums/does-he-hate-wolverine-414391/
http://www.theouthousers.com/forum/the-news-stand/garth-ennis-superheroes-ww2-distasteful-t25255-15.html
And, in his own words:
"I’m starting to think that a good war story is one that doesn’t involve fantasy elements, which tend to trivialize a far more worthwhile subject. I’ve written this stuff myself from time to time, most recently in The Shadow, and I’m sort of wishing I hadn’t. Nothing spoils a good war story faster than some tit in a cape; whenever I see pictures of Captain America or whoever fighting Nazis, I immediately think of the line I gave Butcher in The Boys: “You never fought in the war, you cunt. And you’re a fucking insult to the lads that did.”"
Taken from: http://www.nerdist.com/2014/01/garth-ennis-talks-battle-classics-war-comics-and-more/
To answer the question, I don't like Wolverine very much. I think he's an overrated, one-note rage-on who gets old real quick, but I admit I haven't read many X-Men comics.
"TRUST ME."
Can't think of any heroes I dislike. But there are plenty of editors that have gone out of their way to make heroes unlikable
Hank Pym, you poor soul. The editors couldn't decide on a permanent name for you, so they decided to make you insane
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
Hmmm...I prefered Deadpool when he was newer. His concept is great, it's just become over done. It's like every writer/editor had to top the next. Which I'm sure is the problem with comics as a whole and why there's been so many issues. When his fourth wall breaking felt more insanity like and less actual fourth wall breaking he was better. It's gone overboard to crap. Also, I just doubt Deadpool can kill all of the Marvel Universe :p
I like Superman's cartoons and movies, but his comics never interested me. Probably going back to the top the others. Same with Batman. Though I tend to enjoy their sidekicks and spin offs. Nightwing and Supergirl (well, before New 52).
never been a fan of batman (although I enjoyed the Nolan movies). he's a normal guy, albeit extremely well trained, and he's taking out superpowered folks? some, sure....but a good many should be able to drop him like a bad habit.
never understood the appeal in Deadpool...probably just a generational thing given I am an old man. just not a fan of that type of humor in my comics I guess.
gambit...just annoys the hell outta me.
that's all I can think of off hand.
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Yeah I am also one of the few people it seems that does not simply like Deadpool. He is way too zany for my tastes and I don't really like the constant 4th wall breaking.
Other than that? I think Green Arrow and Wolverine were always pretty boring to me.
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
I don't like the heroes with really long complicated back stories, complicated costumes or goofy powers.
so I don't like any of the New Gods
Red Tornado
Sunfire
Firestorm
Captain Mar Vel
most of the Inhumans
Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy
Alpha Flight
or any attempt to turn Cat Woman into a hero.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
wait...you don't like Captain Mar-Vell? he's one of my all time favs, not to mention he is one of the only heroes to truly die in comics.
the rest I can kinda see. heh.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Well, like I said his background story is just too complicated and silly,
With the Negga bands and Rick Jones and all.
It's like they kept trying different stuff and nothing worked
so finally they killed him off
and everyone pretended to care.
The only thing important about him is that his death was the first graphic novel.
Sorry
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
lol. no worries! we all have different tastes, I was just kinda surprised to see him listed was all. :)
in regards to character history...well, they all have complicated histories now, especially the more iconic ones that have been around for decades. although it is these very things that make the characters what they are today. they are a culmination of all their stories, both good and bad, that we see represented today. this applies to both heroes and villains.
in an ideal situation, we will see some kind of growth in the character...but given comics are set in a sort of timeless time period we rarely get to see this happen. Robin growing into Nightwing and Nova (Richard Rider) going from noob hero to leader of a galactic war are two examples of some growth we can see happening, but it took both of them literally decades to get from point A to point B. when we look at some of the big iconic folks, like Superman, Captain America, etc...actual character growth is virtually nil as the various companies do not want to advance the actual character growth as they may loose their appeal.
anyways...I'll hop off my box now... heh
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Oh, Pally. You hurt my heart.
You don't like Jack Kirby's modern interpretation of the core archetypes and tenets of human mythology? Done in a campy and yet also quintessential way?
Darkseid? Big Barda? Highfather? Orion? Kalibak?
How is this different from Galactus or the Celestials? Do you hate them too?
I always thought you were crazy, but OUR crazy.
Now, I'm not as sure :(
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Comic books are Melodrama
that means they're about action not character development.
I like melodrama
Not everything has to be a freekin novel
I don't like novels.
Folks like me (with Asperger Syndrome) don't handle change well
I've grown up with TV shows and comic books where the characters don't change
and I get to watch some shows over and over so even the stories don't change
and I get a lot of security from that.
and I need that comfort because it seems that everything else in the world changes
including things that even normal people don't want to change
You know, I used to be young
and over the years I've changed my home too many times
my family, & friends (got married, had kids, lost touch with some people, some people died)
my beliefs (became Catholic, lost faith in Republic)
My hopes, my plans, my jobs, it seems like everything changes too much
Comic books & games are therapy for me.
yeah they change too but the pace is a lot slower than in the real world
and sometimes when things go too far they can put things back the way they were
I like that.
Soloing is also therapy.
It slows the pace of change
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Galactus is different.
don't ask me why he just is
don't care for the celestials
just didn't mention them because this is about superheroes you don't like and I don't think of any of them as superheroes.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Well, you are technically correct, which, as every good bureaucrat knows, is the very best kind of correct!
Gods, Galactus, and the Celestials aren't perhaps technically Superheroes in the strictest sense. But they are part of the universe that Superheroes exist in and that gives Superheroes a raison d'etre.
Yet this thread has been illuminating to me as far as understanding where you're coming from. You used to puzzle me, but I see now why you like what you like and don't like what you don't like.
Rock on. We'll play together in CoT.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Let's not forget that the Batman may not be super in the traditional sense, but he has an entire corporation to design and make gadgets for him
Plus he has the kryptonite just for Supes. Dark Night Returns: It took me a lifetime and two fortunes to create this. Luckily, I had both (paraphrased, but in the spirit)
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
That's actually one of my favorite things about superhero comics :o
I have a strong disinterest in the X-Men. I got burned out on those guys around 1985* or so and outside of the Grant Morrison run and one or two of the movies, I can't say they have sparked any interest since then.
* Yes, I know. I'm old.
Probably better then being young. I am likely to be the youngest person on this forum (17, finishing high school this year and going to college and working jobs the next) and I feel like a idiot for not knowing what some people are talking about in the Superhero Culture sub-forums or in the gear/enhancement number crunching threads.....
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
I really hate the punisher, not the vigilante part but just the fact he has constantly hurt innocent people in the crossfire of his wars against the criminal empire, and has refused to help people when it was inconvenient for him, even if they raise him back from the dead. He reminds of a schoolyard bully and he's just so annoying with his pretentious "I'm the good guy" attitude after all the things he's done.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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+1
Yeah....he is certainly not a good example of a vigilante....
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
well the movie version of him was pretty good in that he didn't torture the teenagers who where mildly annoying, but rather embarrassed one them by making one them think a pink ice pop was a blowtorch, and that the villains deserved what happened to them. Not so much in the comic books....
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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I liked the Dolph Lundgren Punisher movie.
Haven't seen the new one.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
The Thomas Jane one is good, but not really representative of the original character at all, styled as like a modern day western. Punisher: War Zone is excellent except for the jokes and the way the bad guy is written.
"TRUST ME."
Disagree on all points, but I don't know what specific events or story arcs you're referring to. From what I've read, he doesn't constantly innocent people but goes out of his way to avoid them and invariably succeeds, and has only refused to help people when he feels (with however much justification) that they can help themselves. He also doesn't seem to regard himself as a hero at all, he just knows the mobsters he kills are willfully villainous. I don't see anything 'pretentious' about him at all.
But it depends on the writer, of course.
"TRUST ME."
1) Glad you're here! Too many of us old codgers haunting the forums like ghouls of Superheroes past. We need the young blood, Bledd.
2) I've read most of your posts and you are anything but an idiot.
3) Old is good. Young is good. Old and young on the same game is one of the things that made CoH great!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Really? ... I must have been reading the wrong punisher comic books.... the first one I read was this Christmas special where he pretty much goes up to a reformed criminal who's being santa claus for some children, punches him in front of said children, and then drags him around while he fights mobsters and then makes orphans build snowmen on top of a mine field... it was also my last... then after words I heard about frankencastle and how he refused to help universal monsters who where living in the sewers fight against a mysterious creature who was killing them even after he was raised from the dead by them... I think I'll try picking up a punisher comic again....
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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Yeah, a 1990s Holiday Special is not the best place to start and then finish with ANY Marvel character (the '90s were a strange place in comics, and I think Marvel got hit worst). Try Punisher MAX series. Seriously.
I think the thing with a character like Punisher is that given he is SO ultimately generic in nature, the writer really needs to both take his actions seriously and yet have him conscious and aware of his situation, ie how psychotic his life has become, how unlikely his success in his work has been, etc. That and ideally have some humour without just turning the main character (and thus the point of the comic) into a single running joke. Trouble is that's not easy, and its easier to treat him as Marvel's joke-character, a parody of generic action movie heroes of the 70s and 80s.
Imagine if DC had never (or very seldom) portrayed Batman as dark and brooding as he has become, but instead kept his lighthearted and comical interpretation from the 50s and 60s alive right up until today, as most people at DC were more conscious of the character's silliness (dressed as a bat with a teenager to fight crime without using a gun?) than they were of his potential for darkness and seriousness. I think that is for the most part what happened to the Punisher.
That said, I also think Grant Morrisons' Beardhunter issue of Doom Patrol is honestly the funniest superhero story I've read, and it's a pretty viscious jab at Punisher and overly serious characters like him, the main difference between it and Holiday Specials or Punisher visting Archie (yes, really) is that it's not just saying Punisher is dumb compared to other superheroes, it's saying that all superheroes are absurd on some level and he is no different (and that it's funny).
But yeah, read Marvel MAX Punisher, it's awesome.
"TRUST ME."
I'll check it out :)
Now as for other heroes I don't like, if we're allowed non super heroes, I'd go with the main character of assassins creed black flag. Usually I'm interested in stories of those games because of how honourable the main character is and how awesome his personality is. The main character of black flag? Total dick.
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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When it comes to superheroes, I get this feeling that for Punisher, who while normal is still above the normal character, even above the normal well trained soldier. Punisher is basically like Batman...a normal person who still makes the best military unity in the world look undertrained :p So, he qualifies as a super hero.
Superheroes seem to have a bit of an unwritten rule not to turn each other in outside of special cases, which Punisher isn't part of the special cases outside of various law enforcement agencies :p
So, Spidey will only try to get in the way of Punisher. Slow him down, but not leave him for the cops (as he should easily beable to).
I don't like the robin...
P: (screaming) The robin! Right! The robin! (rrrip!) There you are, any others you don't like, any others?
C: The nuthatch?
P: Right! (flipping through the book) The nuthatch, the nuthatch, the nuthatch, 'ere we are! (rrriiip!) There you are! NO gannets, NO robins, NO nuthatches, THERE's your book!
C: (indignant) I can't buy that! It's torn!
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
It's true that my likes and dislikes have changed over the decades of reading comics. (put me in the old-guy category, I guess) Writers, artists and prevalent themes changing have both saved and ruined characters for me. I've discovered that, for me, what makes a character interesting and therefore "good" to me is not their powers, but their weaknesses and the balance they need to strike between them, or the narrow breadth of their powers and how imaginatively they have to use them to be effective.
I've always had the common problem with Superman. He's just too powerful to be relatable. But, I love it when he is juxtaposed to Batman.
Hulk, likewise unrelatable to me. Also extremely 2-dimensional.
Green Lantern. A ring that can essentially do anything you can imagine? ::yawn::
Dr. Strange / Dr. Fate
SIlver Surfer. Get over your &#!+ already!
Never liked Superman, still don't understand the appeal. To me he represents the overly idealized concept of the "perfect person." I get how that would have been marketable until the 1950s, I have never seen a single iteration of Superman I truly got behind; not in comics, not on film, not in cartoons. His general "over powered" nature diminishes his appeal further.
Since I generally have a Marvel bias, I should point out I also strong dislike Captain America for nearly the same reason. While not over powered like Superman, he still represents the overly idealistic view of the world in general and USA specifically. Cyclops from Marvel almost falls into this trap is marginally redeemed when this aspect is actually written in as a character flaw, specifically when fighting with team mates. (Granted from I'm told current story lines of Cyclops are unrecognizable from what I grew up reading).
I hesitate to defend Wolverine as my views and impression of the character has little to do with how he is depicted today. The success of the X-Men films (and I use that term lightly) was the worst and best thing that happened to all the X-Men characters, Cyclops and Wolverine being the worst victims. While a massive boost in popularity and thus sales, the characters portrayed on film were not those of the comic books. The Frank Miller and Chris Clearmont treatments of Wolverine are the ones I recall most. A deeply flawed character who struggled to overcome some shortcomings and just flat out learn to live with the rest. Logan's failures and success with his own flaws was the primary appeal and made the best story lines. None of these themes are explored in any of the films.
hrmmm...I did just that in a Champs game (pnp) years ago...man...the other player was not happy when I turned him in for killing a flunky viper agent.... hehehe
as such, I think I missed that memo... :p
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
errr....what??? lol
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Paladin spent half his career chasing down Steel Head
Since Steel Head can teleport he eventually settled for exposing his secret I.D. forcing him to leave town and set up somewhere else.
I don't consider mass murderers superheroes.
That's like my main beef with the alignment system
also I don't like heroes who know they're in a comic book, like Ambush Bug or Some versions of She Hulk
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Probably Monty Python.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
errr....what???
Probably?
Oh so sad.
I thought you guys were Real Nerds, like me
Of Course It's Freekin Monty Python!
I feel so old and tired
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
That's because you failed your sanity check
Too many sanity checks
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Johnny Storm, the Human Torch. I always thought Johnny Storm was a real a-hole for the way he taunted Ben Grimm, the Thing.
Johnny could flame-on and flame-off at will, while Ben was an orange rock twenty-four hours a day. Johnny Storm was the quintessential guy who had all the advantages, but who still chose to pick on the guy with few advantages.
I also didn't like Superman. Back during Superman's pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths days, so much stuff had been piled on him to make him "super" that he was too weird and alien. He didn't need to eat. He didn't need to sleep. He didn't need air. He didn't have any significant relationships.
Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths, Superman was less powerful. He was technically born on Earth. He spent a good portion of his youth like a completely normal human. He had family (Ma & Pa Kent) and people who shared his life with. He loved to snack on Ma Kent's rhubarb pie at midnight. He also wasn't a Superman who pretended to be Clark Kent. He was Clark Kent who used the pretense of Superman to help people.
And, I hate that in recent years DC has gone back to the more powerful, but less human Superman.
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
I would have to say if there is a super hero I don't like it would have to be Coagula, everything about her back story, how she got her powers and her fight with Codpiece is just too much for me to handle lol
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
Avatar by lilshironeko
Worse, there's evidence him hitting his wife was a mistake, the artist misinterpreting the instruction "Hank hits his wife", as an actual hit rather than as intended -- an accidental bump or similar minor thing.
I hate it when the writer changes and writers come along and cr** on what went before to get rid of it. Legion of Super-30-somethings, Dr. Druid as active hero, the whole Dr. Doombot vs. Kristoff year-long thread, to name a few.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
Right now the hero I almost hate is the movie version of Wolverine. And I think Hugh Jackman is the biggest reason for it.
Truthfully I think both Jackman and the writers miss the appeal and core of the character with the storylines they have presented. What makes him so fun is not his tragic past or lost loves. Its his ferocity and tenacity which are reflected in his powers. He is (or was not sure if he has adamantium or not now in the comics) unbreakable, gets back up when knocked down and will tear you a new one if he needs to. You want to explore his flaws....then how about his anger....the beserker rage.
They could make a great Wolverine movie if they took a plot like in the Denzel movie the Equalizer or Keanu's John Wick and dropped Wolverine in the title role. Forget about the whole stealing his powers and lost loves....just give him a group he crosses paths with and ends up at odds with them.
I'm not sure I hate any character.
Batman fanboys, on the other hand, are another matter.
*grumble grumble grrr grumble*
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ironman has joined my short list of "disliked heroes". was never really a fan of the character from the beginning, although I like the "concept" of power armor. but the MCU pretty well killed him to me...and now it appears that marvel is going to make him their center piece versus spidey... which really is just another thing on the pile that they are doing, and have done, that makes me just ask...why!?!
right, ironman...not a fan.
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I have a strong dislike for Superman but most of that is the fault of the writers more than the character himself. They've been writing the same character for over 70 years now and they long ago ran out of stories. They've also changed the character so many times that his baggage train is a mile long. Way too many inconsistencies. Add to that is the sheer amount of power he has. I feel that character with is power level should be relegated to NPC status. He's not a character he's a force of nature.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I like Superman and his perfect ideal, as well as a clumsy but endearing Clark Kent persona.
Yes some earlier stuff was over-powered, like moving planets, sneezing out a star (as if it were a candle on fire), shedding off excess energy to re-energize a star, or worst of all, containing a supernova.
But normal stories should have fun with it. He does the Herculean tasks and things others cannot. In Superman Returns, nothing involved punching a stronger guy real real hard at the end as the music swells. It involved stopping the guy AND saving everyone in the process.
That's the way to write Superman. Screw the modern gritty crap.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
The best Superman story I ever read was some sort of Christmas special graphic novel. Superman had the hunger in some parts of the world thrown in his face and he decided to do something about it...personally. He called for donations of food and then carried them to hungry countries. In many places he was heralded as a hero which was true. In others, the citizens were so terrified of anything new or different that they just left the food to sit for the rats. In a couple of places others showed up to steal the food and when Supes tried to stop them they threatened the locals if he didn't leave. Powerful stuff.
The thing that made it good for me was that it could have been ANY hero doing it. There was no single act that Supes did that could not have been done by any other hero with strength and personality. The story was about the action taken, not who was taking it.
As I said, I don't dislike the character but after so many years of stories I think the writers have run out of ideas. Superman is not alone in this regard. Any long-running character will have the same problem. However any character that is presented as being able to do virtually anything as Supes has (between odd powers, super-science, super speed etc) bores me. It's too difficult to write him a challenge and it's too difficult for me to completely suspend belief.
When you have all of the abilities that Superman has it becomes difficult to justify not using them to solve every problem.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Gambit. he's annoyin and nothing special (to me at least)...but for some reason the masses love em.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Because he's a Hustler? ;D
I like Captain America, so fook Garth Ennis.
Seriously, comic books (or rather, the ones Ennis is talking about, those that adhere to the comic code and are intended for minors) turn EVERY topic into a cheap, brightly colored, flimsy, 2-D version of itself, and he's a comic book creator by personal choice. No comic intended to be approved for sale in the US to a young audience can possible treat horrible mature serious dark subjects in any realistic way while living up to the comic code. It's just not possible. War is treated in the "upto code" comics just like all other violent, adult, dark, and unsavory topics. Captain America comics cheapen and sanitize war only as much as they have to to satisfy industry standards of gore and violence and other titles cheapen and sanitize other equally grim subjects as well, like armed robberies where people actually get shot and killed/maimed/disabled and kidnappings where it's not the colorfully-dressed Boy Wonder getting taken away and strapped to the doomsday machine but someone's 4 year old daughter getting grabbed and vanished and sold into a life so horrible I can't even type it here.
What does Mr. Ennis want then? For us to ONLY have Captain America comics where Cap has to deal with his best friend getting his brains sprayed all over the page by a Nazi with a Schmizer while said Nazi is simultaneously shouting race-hatred and molesting a Jewish slave? As Alan Moore once said, as soon as you put the word "adult" on a comic shelf, nobody let's their kids buy it. It may as well say "full of tits and innards".
All code-approved comics trivialize and glorify violence while somehow magically making sure no human beings get seriously hurt because that's the industry standard they have to contend with. That's the standard, and as long as people want to see heroes actually doing anything heroic, they'll always end up trivializing and glorifying violence.
If you don't like it, fine, but don't tell me that all war comics have to be adult-level of gore and smut just to satisfy the requirement that "war is hell" and we should treat it with due respect. You can still have Cap fighting modern foes like Modok in a non-war-time setting without pulling some pious "You weren't even THERE, MAN!" bullsh1t about it.
I don't need all of my comic books to teach the same depressing existential lessons that all life sucks, all people are a$$holes, you can't win, there are no real heroes, only real monsters, and Captain America isn't going to save you if you have to go to war. There's room in my world for brightly colored, 2-D caricatures saving the day, even if that's not the way it would have happened in real life.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
"Super-strength is no joke. In the comic books someone can get tossed around or battered by a guy who can bench press a car and not end up in traction. The truth is, if something supernaturally strong gets its hands on you — you’re dead."
I think this is the crux of why Worm, a web serial written in a pretty dark super setting, has such a massive following (for a web serial, anyways). The characters are constantly being forced to deal with death and dismemberment, and injury recovery times are realistic outside of the powers that break those limits, such as regeneration, in which case it's justified. The main character is frightening, and not just because her power is bug control; she knows she has a weak power, and so she does everything she can to win, searching for and exploiting weak spots in enemy defenses, figuring out how powers work so she can better combat them. In-universe, Skitter is described as "Kind and generous to those she considers her subjects but prone to sudden and extreme violence against those she considers her enemy."
That sort of thing doesn't go over well when you look at basic comics. I think one of the worst offenses I've seen was when Batman is aggravating Darkseid in a movie, and Darkseid puts him through a wall! He doesn't even look injured after it, either, just kinda tired. But in reality when you hit someone with a set piece, whether it be a chair, a wall, or a car, you break before it does.
That's not to say this sort of thing doesn't have its place. Acceptable Breaks From Reality is a thing because it's important for us to enjoy ourselves from time to time with nonsense. But in my mind this sort of thing can still be realistically portrayed without it being considered "adult".
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
I dislike any character that can, at a whim, drastically alter the landscape of the title without any checks or balances.
One scene from Civil War really hit it for me: Dr Strange was meditating (like he ALWAYS does) and someone asked him why he didn't stop the war. "You can end all of this with a thought," was the quote I believe. However Strange knew that he couldn't do things that way because nobody would learn anything. They'd just have the same problem all over again later. So here is this guy with pretty much unlimited power but he has the wisdom NOT to use it. Sentry was agoraphobic. If he hadn't been then he would have done pretty much anything he wanted to and there goes a dozen story lines.
On the flip side, the writer that first decided to give Superman robot duplicates of himself should be shot. 90% of the great things Supes does is through a feat of strength...saving planes and sinking ships etc. So now you have an army of robots that can do that for you. Ok...so why leave the house? Why has Superman NOT become the busiest guy ever because now he really can be everywhere at once? When the idea was created the writer should have put in a limiting factor that kept it from dominating the story. But then again the writers of ST NG had the same issue.
I prefer the street-level heroes most of the time because their story doesn't have to encompass the entire world every month. If they can save a few lives or keep a city block from blowing up then they had a good day. The fact that they can't take over the world if they get mind-controlled means that some of the mega-powerful villains won't even consider them a threat.
However there HAS to be some level of progress for me to be interested in a character. They can't remain frozen in time forever or the stories will get stale. No other type of fiction works this way so I'm used to characters getting older, kids growing up, people retiring. I think that this is a natural progression of life and that comics should reflect it. Sure, you can slow the pace down a bit (because otherwise most characters would be gone in 3-5 years) but characters need to change a bit I think. Otherwise it just gets repetitive.
The first time I saw Black Panther activate his armored nano-suit and fight Dr Doom I was floored. Here is the Black Panther, a jungle hunter, basically Tarzan with a cat theme, fighting DR DOOM! And he did WELL! That was when I realized that, given the backstory of the MCU, there was no reason NOT to have a super nano-suit for what for years had been a minor character.
If the writers of the various forms of media can't come up with new stories for existing characters then I think it's time for new characters. Batman needs to retire and become the old guy from Batman Beyond, helping the new young guy learn the ropes. Superman needs to get a hobby, restore Kandor (if it hasn't been already), return to the future or whatever. Let someone else have a chance with NEW stories and NEW challenges.
Trying to make a character last beyond their allotted time is like trying to make Elvis look good at 300 pounds in a gold lame' suit. It's sad and people need to move on.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Like Lobo or Squirrel Girl, they are not meant to be taken seriously, and should only be used in comedic situations. The problem comes when they are not.
How would you even use Squirrel Girl non-comedically? "Oh no, Thanos has a glove with 72 Cosmic Icosahedrons and 14 Trans-Reality Silver Hearts on it. Bettter call squirrel Girl!" It is just stupid on the face of it.
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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.
Oh come now. Just because it's stupid to call them up against Thanos doesn't make them stupid characters. I wouldn't bother calling daredevil or Captain America to fight Thanos either and they're not stupid.
But yeah I probably wouldn't ask Squirrel Girl to help against even the Scorpion so she's dumb.
Just saying your example was too extreme.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
No, the example is bang on. Squirrel Girl exists to mock "lol my guy Doom is so invincible that any time anyone other than Richards beat him, it was just a doombot. Sometimes it was a doombot when Richards beat him, too." "Oh yeah? Well my guy Thanos is totally invincible, end of story. Every time he appears to have had a setback, he was just jobbing. No, even if that doesn't make sense, he was still jobbing for some reason. [i]Especially[/i] if it doesn't make sense. Ooh, ooh, and now he has this power-up, like from a bad video game or something. It makes him even more invincibler, times infinity!"
When comic writers start pulling that Villain Sue rubbish, Squirrel Girl and the Watcher need to be there to take them down 30 or 40 pegs. While armed only with a squirrel.
There was a story in Spiderman (forget which title) called 'Something bout a gun'.
In it Spiderman disarms a crook near a school but when they go looking for the gun its gone. Turns out one of the kids who saw the fight grabbed it up because he was being bullied. The entire two parter was about Spiderman trying to find that gun before something bad happens...when he does figure out where it is he talks the kid down from hurting the bully.
It was the single best Spiderman story ever IMO. The story was about what makes someone heroic....about victimization....about acceptance. Brilliant.
I agree completely that stories do not need to be world encompassing to be engaging though I don't care if the hero has the ability to change the world landscape or not...just what drives them and the choices they make.
Movies, TV and Books all use the stasis aging gimmick to keep telling the stories long past when the character should have aged. Not just superhero comics.
James Bond (both book and movie), Simpsons, Mac Bolan, Remo Williams, ect ect ect all never seem to age but the stories they are involved in are relevant to the time when they are written. Heck.....Archie has been around since 1941...that's 74 years of teenage development.
If you read many of the early comics you see how the characters were based on ideas rather than how cool they are. Spiderman is a combination of teenage angst and wish fullfilment, Superman is the ideal man, Captain America is Americas fighting spirit and so forth....
Its like the greek myths....your heroes were created to give object lesson on the morality and religion of the time. Its why they endure....and why superheroes endure....its not so much the individual stories, its the overall concept of that hero.
When the comic explores a character to its fullest OR society changes in such a way that the concept behind the character is no longer relevant then the character must change or become stale. Its one of the major reasons why Superman still has a hard time finding an audience in todays comics....his core concept is outdated.
The biggest issue with the changing of a character is public reception. When a character becomes so iconic that to change it is akin to blasphemy then the character gets stuck in a rut and is unable to move on due to public expectations. Again...Superman suffers this catch 22 the worst as he is the most iconic hero in comics.
As I explained...its just as much the fault of fans as it is of the writers for the stagnation of some characters. But there is another aspect that I think is at fault here. Currently things change so much quicker than they did before in North America.
With the 24 hour news, 1000 TV channels, easy internet access and massive media output there is just not enough time for a character (new or old) to be given a chance to express itself properly before the issue they are trying to relate to has been explored extensively by other media...in sound bites usually.
None of this makes new characters a solution as they too will...in short order no less, find they are plague by stagnation. This will only result in a steady stream of new characters replacing older ones with the only draw being getting to know the new character. The stories will essentially be the same as we have seen before.
The biggest boon we could hope for in comics is a new Alan Moore, Geoff Johns, John Romita, Frank Miller, Steve Dillon or, of course, Jack Kirby. A new writer/illustrator who understands how to tell a story in todays world that explores current issues without being preachy or underdeveloped. There are some to look out for to be sure (do a simple search to see who they are)...but none have really stood up and given us definitive works yet.
When they do, its just as likely that they will use the old Icons as they will new creations. So don't put Spiderman, superman or Batman out to pasture just yet.
All of them.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Good points. I admit Ennis' point about trivializing war in Captain America can also be applied to crime and law enforcement in general, which would undermine the whole genre of superheroes, not least his own work on Punisher (who targets realistic mobsters and criminals), which therefore seems hypocritical. But I think he treat the whole issue of the realities of war very seriously, for him it is basically sacrosanct - it may be relevant here that he is an outspoken atheist (as are most of his main characters, if not all of them) and as such he is happy to satirize and deconstruct elements of authority, the establishment, religion and the clergy, but when it comes to the sacrifice of soldiers and the lives of ordinary people, THAT is where he draws the line. It strikes me that is a rule with his work, and if so it's one I share 100%.
I may seem harsh here, btw, but make no mistake Ennis is still one of the best comics writers ever, I can't recommend his Hellblazer, Punisher MAX, Preacher and Hitman series enough.
"TRUST ME."
How come? And which one do you dislike least?
"TRUST ME."
I don't like Spiderman that much, but it's more neutral than anything else. He is insanely popular, but I never felt like following his series.
"TRUST ME."
Because they constantly get in the way of my greatness.
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Why don't you like Catwoman? I want to like the character more than i can due to the way she is often written and used artistically: as shallow and as over sexualized eye-candy. I read most of Catwoman volume 3 in the 2000s so I can recommend that, the Will Pfeifer run especially, but most of her 80s and 90s stuff that I've seen I didn't like. As for what Frank Miller wrote, I didn't really object to her written as an ex-prostitute in concept, but Frank Miller usually treats any subject matter in an exploitative way, I don't like his stuff for that reason, and don't get me started on Sin City.
"TRUST ME."
Oh moan moan moan. That never stopped Lex Luthor, it never stopped the Arkham club, it shouldn't stop you either, brother. Need to try harder, is all.
"TRUST ME."
I have been reading Worm recently (got to the Slaughterhouse 9 arc) and yeah I will agree with that. Skitter is probably one of the best protagonists in a hero world(along side the Undersiders) that I have read in a long time. Other then the superhuman characters still feel human and vulnerable despite having powers (hell there has been a few really powerful heroes or villains that have died up to the point I have gotten in the story....). Capes or parahumans as Worm calls them are not invincible. Even some of the most powerful characters in the setting have weaknesses. The only characters that comes close to this are Eidolon, Scion, and the Endbringers and even then those characters still have there limits or reasons behind why they are damn near invincible .
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
FOOL! It is within the very nature of villains to continually bemoan the heroes who dare to threaten their plans and prevent them from total global domination. Why else do we scheme their inevitable downfall?
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
This is called Liefeld Syndrome, and here is the cure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkiBYAF5fcA
THINK CLEARER, BROTHER. The fire rises.
"TRUST ME."
Counter example http://youtu.be/qi86yeXB9pI
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Kay, I see. That's how you want it then, huh? A PVP-off?
YOU GOT IT. You're all witnesses. Come beta day, there's gonna be bits of green cape ALL OVER TC. I don't have my redside name worked out for this yet, but when I do, I'll be back here to let you know. Me and Lord Nightmare are goin to war, may the worst sumbitch win.
"TRUST ME."
Where do i reserve the Tickets at? ;)
None required, you can watch it from base, live, Hell it'll be bouncing all over the server, you wont even have to move. Counter counter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmVnHOWI7I4 Preliminary verdict: bye bye, Doc.
"TRUST ME."
C-C-C-COUNTER BREAKER! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk0kufx74Io
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
Okay you got moves, Doc, but that ain't nothing, THIS is what's gonna happen to your green ass once we're live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAdniWncWu4
"TRUST ME."
Forgive me for a second but.. The Nightmare didn't quite catch your name.
What is your name?
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
I tol you, fool, I ain't decided on a name yet. I got a few ideas to work on, maybe something like a Donald DeFreeze expy (Google is your friend, use them) but Hell we got months to go, there's no hurry. Besides, when beta is replaced by the game proper, it's all gonna be moot. You're gonna have to move real fast to get Lord Nightmare before anyone else does, ESPECIALLY now you've announced it to the internet. I'll bet there's few gamerboys who liked 'Lord Nightmare' before you, you're not the first and won't be the last, and you're gonna have to race em to get registered on the character creator first.
Me, I'm going to wait till after launch and think of something extra clever so no-one else will use it first. I'm working on that. But when I got it, you can be sure, Nightmare, I'm COMING FOR YOUR ASS.
Lol, that's Killer Croc, Adewale Akinnouye-Agbaje. I'm already thinking Suicide Squad might be better than Batman v Superman, looks truer to the source material, but we'll see.
If it was Adebisi that broke the bat, that b!tch woulda stayed broke, know what I'm saying? lol, in fact fcuk Pena Dura, he should've just sent Christian Bale to Oz, he wouldn't have been climbing out of there in a hurry.
Damn, I miss Oz. That show was awesome.
"TRUST ME."
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfRr1Rcu5fw]IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS![/url]
[B]Revenge is motivation enough. At least it's honest...[/B]
Roleplayer; Esteemed Villain
[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg[/img]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLvnyOkOEOs
"TRUST ME."
lol on second thoughts Donald DeFreeze was just a lowlife, not nearly badass enough for my intent. Anyone got suggestions, name me the worst historical POS you can think of?
I thinking of a psychotic leftwing fascist of some kind (I am a committed liberal btw, but rightwing nuts are old hat, and there's too many in real life as it is...) trying to reform the world by killing most of it like a Maximilien Robespierre expy with guns, but we'll see. (interesting article here: http://www.thenation.com/article/remembering-left-wing-terrorism-1970s/)
My second vill in CoH was a transgendered Peaches expy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pDV1NN_hi4) whose name I won't divulge as I wanna use it again, but this time as an anti-hero, blueside. Well, she's coming for you too, Nightmare. It's goin to suck to be you pretty soon! Peaches is legend, btw.
This game is gonna be good.
"TRUST ME."
Well dude the reason I don't like her is partly summed up by the reasons you gave for why you can't like her.
Also I just think she's better as a villain.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Ah, I understand. In that case I do like her character, just not the way she is sometimes (too often) written. By the same reasoning I don't often like the Riddler because he is often written as just a poor man's Joker, a petty trickster instead of the real intellectual giant he is supposed to be. Thus I love the character concept, I just can't name many stories where he is really done justice, hence not many stories in which I like him. Do you see?
What is your favourite Catwoman story, could you recommend any good ones with her as out and out villain?
"TRUST ME."
Red Hood.... at first he looked like he could make a great batman villain as there where some hints that the trauma of being tortured to death by the Joker and then being resurrected in the Lazarus pit broke his mind. Then of course they tried to make him an anti-hero with his own comic book and super team and now it's like he's constantly shifting between a dime a dozen boring brooding emo and those annoying teenagers at the mall who think their intimidating by dressing up like juggolos who all collectively had a bad day at a hipster convention...
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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The metro looking ones, heroes should not look like something off of teen nick or females, unless they are females.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Yeah, who wants a superhero who looks like a frigging train, right? OMG, THAT'S NOT REALISTIC!!!!
"TRUST ME."
Transform, check your finish, and roll out.
There were two heroes I did not like. Moon Dragon and Mantiss. The bald woman and the lady who referred to herself as "This one".
Too weird for me at 15 years old..
Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese
Deadpool. But I hear they pulled off a good movie. Maybe I'll talk myself into going.
Edit: And that's not fair. Nothing too terribly wrong with the character or the odd direction they went with him, he just became the victim and darling of some very, very bad writers. And, in some cases, fans.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Yeah that's something worth pointing out with characters like say Red Hood/Jason Todd although of course he isn't the only one.
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]