Hi all,
This topic has been discussed on various other threads, but I MWM is at a stage in development where I thought a focused thread discussing and analyzing this topic might be useful. Or not, we'll see :).
What put me in mind of this was my son, who's 19 now and grew up playing CoH, has gotten heavily into playing and following the old Super Smash Bros. Melee game tournaments. I watched a few tournament videos with him and, while that game is VERY twitch, what made it so fun to watch was how wonderfully mobile and kinetic everything was.
This put me in mind of how and why people who loved CoH often talk about how much they loved the Superhero action in the game--even in PVP--though the controls were pretty tame compared to games today and even many other games of the time. I think it's at least partially because, like Super Smash Bros. Melee, there was high mobility and lots of gratuitous knock plus rag doll mechanics.
I can tell you that the very first time I played CoH with my friend who introduced me to the game, we were climbing an open flight of stairs in a mission and a mob came up behind me (and because I was a low level noob on a high-level mission I would have gotten ganked).
I saw my friend turn towards me, there was an explosion of light that almost turned my whole screen white accompanied by screen shake and a crack and rumble like thunder, and then the mob folded over jackknife and went flying over the rail, fell about one story and his ankle caught on a lower flight of stairs, and he hung upside down unconscious till he faded.
I was hooked.
So, I'd like to propose the things I think made the action so compelling in a non-twitch game and even in relatively non-twitch PVP.
1) Gratuitous use of the much-maligned but frickin awesome knock mechanics. Knock em high and knock em far.
2) Movement powers--especially combat movement powers like Combat Jump, Hover, and dash/spring/teleport attacks. Active, active combat animations.
3) Substantial "feeling" sounds--I think this is underestimated. The Crack-Boooooooom-Rumble Rumble Rumble of thunder or the heavy smacking thud of a super strength punch. LOTS of bass. Let me feel the crack and the bass.
4) Correct use of the also-much-maligned screen shake. NOT gratuitous use here, but used artfully to accentuate the feeling of, well, earthshaking power.
5) Large, screen-filling and even surpassing power effects. Novas that white out your screen for a second. Summoning storms that aren't one lame little cloud, but that fill the whole roof of an open room.
6) NOT using very fast movement animations in general (unless speed is an aspect of the power). CoH combat animations often seemed to be large movements and almost in slow motion compared to the animations in Champions, DCUO, and TSW--but the CoH animations were smooth and felt powerful compared to the twitchy little spasms of movement that they often use many games.
Now that I write this out, it makes perfect sense to me. Superheroes are larger than life, and so their powers should be large, over the top and dramatic. Go big or go home.
Agree? Disagree? Did I miss something? Am I way off or being impractical?
What'ch'all think?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
The knock back/up and ragdoll mechanics are something I don't think I really considered added so much to the action.
Now that you mention it, it made it so that when you used some powers, the effects could look different even if the amount of damage done was exactly the same.
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
I would prefer it if the KB/KU effects were influenced by the use of enhancments....if you want to knock foes around slot for it....let me decide if I want it or not.
As I understand it...not every power in CoT will root players so the game ...while not twitch....will be more mobile than CoH was.
Sound is important and agree completely.
As long as there is a way to turn it off....I personally hate screen shaking effects in games.
Sadly this is much harder to provide options for and as such might not be a good idea. White outs can cause monitor damage (or even eye damage albeit temporary) and large encompassing effects can be a severe cause of lag. Unless there was a way for the devs to make this optional in the video panel I would not suggest this one.....still there is nothing wrong with an impressive display of power that does not require a beastly gamin computer and insane connection speeds.
As we are going to be able to pick our powers animations from a list I think you will find your desires met.
Thanks for the detailed response, Island, and you brought up some good points.
OPTIONS are always good. Where possible give a way to turn things up, off, or down so that people can choose what they like personally. BUT, it's important to note that if it isn't built into the game in the first place, people can't choose it.
So, build in the awesome knock/shake/flash/etc. and give ways to tone it down? Sound right?
I will say that I've never owned anything even close to a beastly gamin computer and always had pretty standard internet speed, and I never noticed full-screen effects causing lag in CoH. It usually had more to do with how many team members had how many things were going on at once.
I can understand "screen whiteout" annoying people. I personally like the "fog of war" effect it causes, but I'm sure it bugs the heck out of some people. So maybe an option to turn down the particles or something?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
To an extent yes. But if it requires an entirely new mechanic which costs more than the gain from what it produces then no. I have no idea what kind of coding it would take to make large encompassing effects smaller and more manageable while still making them look ok (I know particle effects sliders help) so can't say if its easy or not to do it.
CoH did not have any full screen effects or powers which 'filled the entire roof'. But when you say 'it had more to do with how many things were going on at once' you are saying the same thing as I am....if it took a team of 8 all spamming powers for you to lag...imagine if a single power was as intensive as all of them being spammed...how much lag would there be then?
I am sure there is a way to do this but it would unlikely be with particles. It would require some kind of palette manipulation dial in the options as a whiteout effect is basically turning the entire screen to a single white color.... depending on how common this was (how many powers did this and how often they could be used) it could be a source of griefing or...as I said...eye/monitor damage.
I have no issue with anything you want included as long as there is some way to provide options for it.
I like this idea - it allows for every MORE power variation.
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men.
~Roald Dahl
Agreed. Options. And of course if any of the ideas are impractical or unworkable, c'est la vie. Can't have everything.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Nothing says you can't ask though.
Knock back and down are designed differently than they were in the old game and using an augment as a switch isn't going to work in the same way. It could, it would take a lot more work to have an augment change an effect altogether. That said, we do have 3 plans to work through in resolving the issues with knockback and down.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Well, I really hope that when I play I am not spending most of my time chasing after the guy I just punched.
C'mon man.... can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Sorry, I can't, at least until we see how things work out in testing. Part of this also has to do with certain mechanics in making knocks non-binary and if the basics work out as intended, layering some additional mechanics and testing those. The basics are that we recognize there are issues with melee characters and knock back effects and we have several ways we will explore in mitigating those factors.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Well that is enough to tide me over at least.
Knockback.
Fun for Range.
Lousy for Melee.
Terrible for Stand & Stick tactics that involve Planting The Flag and fighting in one place (i.e. Herd & Burn).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I never understood why people kept talking about chasing the guy they knocked back. I played a Martial Arts scrapper and my philosophy was this: you're rarely fighting one guy at a time. Knockback is so you can pound on guy B while guy A is picking himself up and running back across the room. Don't run after him, that's silly. You just temporarily put him out of the fight - get back a bit of stamina or pound his buddies in peace or something. It's soft control. I do not understand why everyone thought they had to run after whoever they just hit.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
When playing a Tank, i didnt mind players using Temp Staff power to KB one foe away.
Its only after i taunted 2 groups at once and have aggro that the rest of team is just about to lay down their AoE to DeBuff and Melt the 2 enemy groups and just as thats about to happen, a Fire/Kin comes along and also drops Bonfire, or an Energy Blaster with Energy Torrent. or a Storm toon use Hurricane while standing right beside the Tank.
And this Has Happened to me, where the player was asked Not To KB the enemy back, and that player would stop for the next 2 groups, but then Do It Again. >:(
Thinking back on this, its most likely that player was fairly young.. or just Trolling. ;)
It sucks that one player can ruin the play-style enjoyed by allot of others on a team.
But that's not really a problem with having knockback, it's the universal problem of teammates not following the strategy. There are always way to mess it up, KB is just one example.
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[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
The trick, of course, is figuring out a way to not let some kids and/or trolls spoil your fun, while not spoiling the fun of others.
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Well, I would like to suggest KnockDown as the Default mechanic, and as the player learns more, they can use KnockBack by holding down the power or alternate ways to get at the KnockBack. This way, n00bs are never a hindrance and seasoned players wont think twice about inviting n00bs, or joining random PUG's. ;)
Ex: By default Energy Torrent Moves across the ground, but as it passes a Foes feet, an extra FX that animates right under the Foe shoots upward where the Foes feet are. Sends the foe flying up, and knocking them down in the same spot. Like Foot Stomp.
But, if you change the Mechanic of the Effect to KnockBack, it works like it always did. ;)
In your singular example you would be right.
But:
Not all KB hits one foe
Some tactics require foes to be near you
PBAoEs can't hit a guy across the room
Runners get away
Powersets can require foes to be in close range as part of mitigation
Important targets now have a chance to do the thing you were trying to prevent
Some foes will stay at range and now shoot instead of melee
Does that help you understand why we might chase a target down?
Well the other major way to screw up stuff like this was to lock them down in place so that they couldn't move (immobs in CoX case). They could still attack you (sucky).
Or they were held. But if they were held, then they were not going anywhere nor doing anything... even then though, some "tactics" required a lot more knowledge about WHAT powersets you had chosen and HOW you had enhanced them.
Sure, from a point of view of "Knock em all way, don't care, I can still hit THIS coming towards you" might not necessarily be a problem... it is just then a chaotic mess. When solo, that is fine. For other team setups, it might make it a little bit harder.
Which some people like... others don't.
That is not to say that knock back is useless... it isn't. There are times and places when it can be *very* useful (I remember solo keeping back 15+ mobs from a single point with a high recharge bonfire just in the correct place, about the only time that I found that power *essential* for the team setup).
So ironically, in cases where teams don't necessarily communicate, or they have *Different* tactics for dealing for the same situation, it is a case of you NEED to communicate. Some do, some don't.
What about knock [b]ups[/b], will they be in and if so will they be treated as just a vertical "knock back"? If knock ups are just vertical knock backs then it should be easy to make augments that switches between them, right?
One of the things that I like in CO is that attacks with knock back/up effects generally deal more damage to knock immune targets, since they now take the full force of the attack instead of part of it being converted to kinetic energy which propels them. Will such a mechanic be in here as well?
All knocks are different effects, that is different vector altering attacks. The goal is for each to have thier own non-binary effect (if we can get them to work as intended). Because of these non-binary effects we are not tying any bonus damage to knock resistant targets. One could as easily argue that the knock resistance target effectively diffused any of the kinetic impact and thus took no additional damage after all. I can't go into more details, but part of this is connected to the combat mechanics and how protection powers work toward various effects.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
In hindsight, this thread was destined to become a "pros and cons of knock" thread to at least some extent--which is ok because it is relevant and does need to be discussed.
But don't forget the original topic of the thread: What constellation of things creates AMAZING SUPERHERO ACTION in an MMORPG that is not "active combat" or "twitch" focused?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Well, Sometimes (but not always) it's the HORDE of enemies coming at me, as I pound them down, one by one. Sometimes it's the look I imagine on their faces, if only they could See me walking right through their defenses, except they're all clueless and asleep. (Boy are they gonna be surprised when Police arrive!) Sometimes it's that glorious moment when my Buffs and De-Buffs finally synchronize and the fight tips strongly in my Team's favor - all of our bars are going Up, while the enemy is going Down. I also get a thrill out of a well-executed Snipe - Boom! Headshot! One enemy down, while the rest frantically look around saying, "What the heck just happened!?!"
I guess I'm saying well-designed powers make a big difference in my experience of the game. Those things that let me do my Thing, or gain the leverage to make a success from a difficult situation. Tactics and Strategy, when the Plan comes together. So, environment or terrain and positioning that makes a difference and has an effect on the outcome of the encounter.
In open content, easy ways to share effects with other players and rewards for completing the objective, without requiring a team-up. Simple, effective ways to join into teams, both on-the-fly and with careful selection. By this, I mean a player ought to have a way to say "Can I join you" and get immediate response and a way for team leaders to examine a roster of available characters and select the ones he wants.
Team members ought to be able to say, "Oh, there's my friend!" and toss out an invite, which then gets ratified by both the invitee and the team leader. And, if the leader is AFK, then the other teammates ought to be able to ratify the new member into the team. Teams ought to be able to invite other team(s) to consolidate into a larger team, without forcing one team to disband. Perhaps this crosses through the 'League' interface? Still it should be as simple as click > invite > accept.
These 'ease of use' features can help make super-hero action more amazing.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Kind of like how the open groups in Rift works then (or at least how it worked when I played Rift a few years back. Made the public events really easy to group up for, as you dropped in and out of teams almost automagically
Wildstar has a similar system, although it isn't automagical from the get go. You can set up a team/league with just a couple of people to start it off, and then leave it "open". The invite system also went two ways. You could either invite people on a case by case basis, or THEY could send an invite to join your group.
((I believe that there was an addon to do an "auto accept" version, where if you sent a tell with a code word, you could get auto invited by the group leader)).
I am in two minds about the "group can allow a new player without the leader doing it". I have no issues however with people from WITHIN the group being able to throw out invites (infact, it isn't all that uncommon in other games, or at least the games that i have played).
They normally allow this for the raid setup, but it can be easily adjusted for smaller groups as well (ie anyone can invite, only Raid Leader/Assistant can invite, Only leader can send out invites).
However, if a group is set as "closed" then I would say that asking for people to be able to send invites would be automatically declined.
This would be similar to the "auto decline team invites" option that CoX had. You could send the invite, however it would be *automatically* declined by the other side if the group was closed.
On top of that, being able to right click the name in the channel AND the actual character model to invite to team would be useful as well (small QOL feature here).
This does pretty much start to remove the power of "who gets in" from the group leader. Yes, people can go AFK, but typically if they are AFK for a prolonged period of time, that content will not necessarily be completed/started without them.
This is more in line with the league interface. And would be in a general ability of how to join up two disparate groups as well (ie less than full team size, but two teams being together).
It is one thing that I enjoyed from Wildstar. They actually made it surprisingly easy to get grouped up (or to arrange groups on the fly) compared to City of Heroes.
The public events would mean that you could start from a 5 man team, and then enlarge up to a 40 man raid group all for a public event, and all you had to do was just let people send a "request to join" invite and it would build up.
Yes, part of that is due to addons, but in general even without those ones, it was something that made the public open world events *easy* to jump into (and out of, even if you didn't know what you needed to do).1
It would also be a nice QOL feature to send any Invites players on the team make to the Team Leaders Chat Log saying something akin to: "@Global1 wants @Global2 on team. [Send Invite Now]".
Or close to that. ;)
I was thinking of something similar, a notification window: "soandso invited suchandsuch to join the team." Accept / Decline." Along with a menu option to auto-accept and auto-decline team-based invites.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Makes sense to me.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Sounds good.
I was just thinking about Large Raids and how often those popup prompts would show up. I guess I'm scared I'll be overwhelmed with a steady stream of Dialog Invite Popups one after the other. :<
But if i look at a Listing of Invite requests, chat log in this case (but a separate Dialog showing A Grid Layout Listing of Invite Requests might work too, with all sorts of useful info on that player, i.e. which toon they are presently on, what Security Level, which Zone, etc...), then I can Scan the listing and just Send Invites to those I Deem Worthy. ;)
+1, I really like these ideas.
QOL and ease of teaming suggestions are a totally different aspect of making the action fun than I was originally thinking of--but a very important part!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)