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Discuss: Tech Update - Mission Missive

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: Tech Update - Mission Missive

Who would have thought a spreadsheet storage system would make that big a difference?

SPECIAL NOTICE: Nate and I are going to log into Paragon Chat tonight at about 10:15 pm EST to answer questions and discuss the update live in Pocket D! We're going to try to be on time but reality isn't always accommodating so don't give up on us if we're late.

UPDATE: 10:15 pm EST

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Rigel
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Congrats on clearing another

Congrats on clearing another hurdle and thanks to all of you for your hard work!

I'm a firm believer in not reinventing the wheel if it isn't necessary.

As an avid end-user and not very well versed in all the bits that went into the beginning and middle, I am still not real clear on how a spreadsheet is such an elegant solution to one of the problems you were having.

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Unfortunately, I am working

Unfortunately, I am working nights now, so even if I had the Paragon chat loaded I'd not be able to attend. :(

I like that you're planning on using the same system for MWM missions as for player-created missions.

And for that spreadsheet idea, feel free to pass on our spacebos to Gospodin Kokurin!

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

Congrats on clearing another hurdle and thanks to all of you for your hard work!
I'm a firm believer in not reinventing the wheel if it isn't necessary.
As an avid end-user and not very well versed in all the bits that went into the beginning and middle, I am still not real clear on how a spreadsheet is such an elegant solution to one of the problems you were having.

They are generic. So long as the formatting is set properly, you can make a mission in any tool which can produce a CSV file.

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Quote:
Quote:

This other system being discussed here is for custom crafting missions for you to share with your friends or in general.

Imagine ...

Imagine if in City of Heroes, there were Contacts who handed out Missions that allowed you to PICK your Invention Salvage Reward.

Need an Arcane Silver, but think the Market has been overrun by price gouging Ebil Marketeers? Go find the Contact who will let you run Missions that reliably award the type of Salvage you need as the Mission Reward.

Theoretically, you could even set things up such that the "Salvage Missions" are little mini-stories in and of themselves, with 1 Mission (Common), 2 Missions (Uncommon) or even 4 Missions (Rare) chained together as an expectation (ie. EARN your pay). This would then give a Content Oriented means of reliably acquiring Crafting components, without being at the mercy of the RNG or the whims of the Market's fluctuations in supply, demand and overt manipulations. Having an alternative means of supply ought to cut down on attempts to "corner the market" and engage in Market PvP for certain commodities.


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Hmm! Does this mean it should

Hmm! Does this mean it should be quite easy to troubleshoot and update/change missions?

Any chance that you'll log this Paragon Chat event so we can get a transcript of this event, since it sounds like it'll amount to an AMA?

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Any chance that you'll log this Paragon Chat event so we can get a transcript of this event, since it sounds like it'll amount to an AMA?

Considering how many of us will be unable to attend (for various reasons), this would seem to be a wise thing to prepare for.


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If it does turn into an AMA I

If it does turn into an AMA I'd have to change how we're doing it. Bi weekly AMA's would be way too much to deal with. This is just a chance to casually explain the update, and the update in particular, in person. Not meant to be hugely important, but meant to be done for every update if it goes well. Reaching out and being available.

Basically if it turns into a big enough thing to need a transcript, we'll have done it wrong. I may paraphrase any really important insights a lot of people needed in a comment here later though, if it proves relevant.

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desviper
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Good way to advertise ;)

Good way to advertise ;)

Did CoH have a transcripting system?

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desviper
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On the update: I feel like I

On the update: I feel like I'm not following. So the MS will be spreadsheet-based for easy sharing and storing?

To me, not s spreadsheet expert, I feel doesn't offer enough complexity.

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Its great to see that efforts

Its great to see that efforts are being made to ensure the tools for mission creation is open to players.

I am particularly happy with branching mission paths which adds to the replay value a considerable amount without costing the devs as much time/resources as creating multiple missions would. Or rather won't when the system is in place to offer those branches.

I am curious though....when you say that missions can be gotten in many ways, how intuitive will that be?

I would hate it if there were a bunch of tutorials you had to do just to learn how to get missions.

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Good stuff and great article.

Good stuff and great article. If MWM can integrate vendor/commercial-off-the-shelf/reusable code, that will be huge in earning value toward project objectives. Especially, if you can use resources to start parallel work toward other milestones. I particularly like the idea of missions that can be used by heroes and villains with just minor tweaks.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Good way to advertise ;)
Did CoH have a transcripting system?

Yes, it's called "the chat log". Ok, that captures *everything* that gets said in the channels, but at least you can read it afterwards.

Combine that with (for example) the CoH Chat log parser (I cannot believe that it is still up and running... I will buy the guy a drink when I see him in September), and you can quite easily filter stuff accordingly.

And there you are, will take a small bit of work to format it, but at least you will have the initial stuff present.

I won't be there though, as I refuse to have a Titan Account anymore

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Thanks again guys for the

Thanks again guys for the face to face in Pocket D....was informative and very enlightening on how happy the game will make me if even half the stuff comes to pass.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

This is just a chance to casually explain the update, and the update in particular, in person. Not meant to be hugely important, but meant to be done for every update if it goes well. Reaching out and being available.

If these events do prove successful then I have to wonder if it means I'll get the short end of the stick. If many people ask good questions during the chat it's quite possible they'll not be asked here. Without a transcript, we'll not get any answers here, either. I don't have Paragon Chat, I don't intend to get Paragon Chat, and since I'm in Europe I can't be online during the North American evening hours, anyway. If the intent is to share information, this is a very poor way to go about it. The whole "live and in person" effect of being in Paragon Chat is much better suited to PR.

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According to the Tequila

According to the Tequila signal, I should have Paragon Chat SoonTM. But (as I mentioned way up the thread) for the purposes of future Update Discussions, I'm in the same boat as Darth Fez. So if anyone who could attend can get a transcript posted... ^_^

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Quote:
Quote:

If these events do prove successful then I have to wonder if it means I'll get the short end of the stick. If many people ask good questions during the chat it's quite possible they'll not be asked here. .

While it sucks that you can't attend... these events are very similar to the Q and A's at conventions except its much easy to get into them. Any information gotten at one of these will be shared by the devs at some point... those that attend just get it earlier.

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Quote:
Quote:

According to the Tequila signal, I should have Paragon Chat SoonTM. But (as I mentioned way up the thread) for the purposes of future Update Discussions, I'm in the same boat as Darth Fez. So if anyone who could attend can get a transcript posted... ^_^.

I wont go so far as to promise to get a transcript, but I will try and remember next time

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It is indeed more PR than

It is indeed more PR than information sharing, hence the Paragon Chat platform. Most of what was said, has been released already in the forums or in an update, we were just telling it over to people who didn't know yet, or missed it. Real information releases will take place in other ways.

That said, demand for transcripts seems high, so I guess I'd better see what kind of arrangements would work best.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

It is indeed more PR than information sharing, hence the Paragon Chat platform. Most of what was said, has been released already in the forums or in an update, we were just telling it over to people who didn't know yet, or missed it. Real information releases will take place in other ways.
That said, demand for transcripts seems high, so I guess I'd better see what kind of arrangements would work best.

This is always one of the problems when you have a "Limited audience" attendance. Those who are not able to make it would like to know what was said. YOU might think "nothing new was said", but for those who were not able to make it, a piece of information that you said could have been worth a lot. It also produces a lot more conversation about it.

If all you are saying is "This is a PR stunt", then I would *highly* suggest that you don't do it in another game. If anything, you set the precedent that someone from Heroes and Villains would be *totally* allowed to advertise/promote their game inside City of Titans...

Which you might not want them to do.

I would have gone for something like Twitch or google hangouts, even if you were using Paragon Chat as the background[1]

[1] And yes, you can quite easily log twitch chat, its called "use an IRC client" or Chatty (or something along those lines).

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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Why in the world would you

Why in the world would you think we'd do this in other games man? That's just bad taste. Give us some credit.

Paragon Chat isn't 'another game', as I see it. It's a social media platform very specialized for CoH players. As such, it's fair game (within reason - can't be hurting the quality of life of the people there) for all the successor projects. Paragon Chat represents the common point of all of us who once played. The only real game we'd do this in is our own.

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I have a transcript. It isn't

I have a transcript. It isn't complete and it changes format in the middle when I went to bed, but lemme see if I can post it as an attachment.

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"...be it through detective

"...be it through detective work, or creating mad schemes to conquer the world." Heh. This line got me thinking on an unrelated thought for the game:

Remember how in CoH a random NPC might pass by and say "Oh look! There goes (insert hero name here)! I heard he just sent the Circle of Thorns packing!" or stuff like that? Well reading this line from the update, I thought it might even be a little more personal if you're in your alter ego's civies and someone sitting next to you chats with you about your heroic identity. Example:

Jamie Catcher (Hero name: "The Handyman") enters a train and sits down.
Guy next to him leans over with a newspaper. "Check out this 'Handyman' guy. He may not do much detective work, but he gets the job done."

Just a random thought. And along those lines, neat things like how you follow clues (or don't follow them), in other words, the method you use, would have more than just moral implications on your reputation in the city. Such as people forming the opinion that you're a brick-head if you always go smashing into places instead of doing things a little smarter. XD

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Timothius wrote:
Timothius wrote:

Remember how in CoH a random NPC might pass by and say "Oh look! There goes (insert hero name here)! I heard he just sent the Circle of Thorns packing!" or stuff like that?

At the last City of Heroes Player Summit in the spring of 2012, there was a panel where the Devs were asking the all important question of "what makes something EPIC?"

Other people in line were mentioning stuff like Giant Monsters and Hamidon Raids and Incarnate Trials ... all the really big and flashy content. Then when it got to be my turn at the microphone, I mentioned this exact point that Timothius references, that random civilians would be talking about my character's latest exploits in Local chat (complete with word balloons). Even though it was functionally a "rinky-dink" thing and it didn't last very long at all, it still felt ... meaningful ... that the game world RESPONDED to your accomplishments in this sort of "man on the street" kind of way. It gave the immersive illusion that what you DID affected the game world, even if it was in some trivial, non-permanent way.

Suffice it to say, THAT feature of City of Heroes had better be put into the spreadsheet/flowchart for making Missions as a Standard Feature, without which your Mission is incomplete. You could even put the "twitter limit" on message length at 140 characters for the feature, just to keep civilian NPCs from "waxing poetic" with chat diarrhea.


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Quote:
Quote:

[Broadcast] Cheranne: a box price is good it will keep some of the goldspammers out.

[Broadcast] Shadow Elusive: that is the idea in fact

[Broadcast] Shadow Elusive: and the ones who do et it, will have paid us to ban them

I can tell you from direct personal experience of being on the tech support staff for Elder Scrolls Online that a box price did next to nothing to keep the gold spammers out. On launch day, the gold spammers were already abusing communications channels. Within a week, starter zones were basically overrun with gold spam chat messages. Within a month, zones were getting overrun by Bot Farmers using hacks.

The gold spammers and bot farmers didn't "lay off" until Wildstar launched 2 months after Elder Scrolls Online launched ... at which point most of the gold spammers and bot farmers "moved on" to Wildstar as the "new" game to try and exploit.

Assuming that a box price is going to deter gold spammers is a bit like thinking that tissue paper will protect you from hurricane force winds. It's a rather ineffective deterrent against scammers who steal people's credit card numbers and simply buy more accounts on somebody else's dime (ie. the rubes who do business with them).

So Elder Scrolls Online tried the exact method you were referring to. From my perspective "in the trenches" before, during and after launch day for that game, it was a demonstrably ineffective deterrent.


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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I have a transcript. It isn't complete and it changes format in the middle when I went to bed, but lemme see if I can post it as an attachment.

Thanks so much for this, Pengy! For those who haven't combed through the text, here are a few highlights:

  • There will be chat bubbles (Shadow Elusive, line 9)
  • Game cards--like gift cards for game time---are "on the table" (Doctor Tyche, line 171)
  • The ability to find player-created missions in the game world is working but isn't settled (Doctor Tyche, lines 239 & 255)
  • It will be impossible to be friendly with all of the game's factions (Shadow Elusive, line 695; Doctor Tyche, line 701)
  • Some good info about how content progression will be structured via story arcs, clues, and leads (lines 843 to 889)
  • Day/night cycle is working, but seasons aren't planned for launch (Doctor Tyche, line 901)
  • There are 4 "paths" [chains of story arcs, I think, but I could use some clarification] planned for launch (ConundrumofFurballs, line 915)
  • It's the devs' intention to build the game world with a realistic scale and density (Doctor Tyche, line 941)
  • Characters will not have independent finger joints (Doctor Tyche, line 1156)

The event wasn't really meant to be an AMA, but from what I gleaned from the chat log, it looks like it more or less turned out that way. As long as MWM is comfortable with it, I'd really love to see more events like this. It seems like a fantastic way to connect with the community and share more info with those of us who may or may not forage for facts about the game every day like a starving animal.

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I have a transcript. It isn't complete and it changes format in the middle when I went to bed, but lemme see if I can post it as an attachment.

Some highlights:

" Shadow Elusive: Ideas have also been batted around for how we might allow the player missions to be found in game rather than in a building. These are NOT confirmed, but we've discussed how we might achieve it"

Sounds cool, but how would this then allow one to find a mission they're looking for? The oldschool way of searching for a [contact]?

"Doctor Tyche: Just saying, some of the ideas we've tinkered with include using air ducts or skylights"

Now that's cool, I can just imagine the jewel thief dropping from the skylight :p

"Shadow Elusive: Getting attacked by your own base is a pretty solid scenario"

/nerdboner

"Shadow Elusive: NOw, we have considered, as a epic archetype (like CoH's Kheldians), an inventor, who can craft any power for himself but has to keep finding the ingredients to use them"

O_o

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Quote:
[Broadcast] Cheranne: a box price is good it will keep some of the goldspammers out.
[Broadcast] Shadow Elusive: that is the idea in fact
[Broadcast] Shadow Elusive: and the ones who do et it, will have paid us to ban them

I can tell you from direct personal experience of being on the tech support staff for Elder Scrolls Online that a box price did next to nothing to keep the gold spammers out. On launch day, the gold spammers were already abusing communications channels. Within a week, starter zones were basically overrun with gold spam chat messages. Within a month, zones were getting overrun by Bot Farmers using hacks.
The gold spammers and bot farmers didn't "lay off" until Wildstar launched 2 months after Elder Scrolls Online launched ... at which point most of the gold spammers and bot farmers "moved on" to Wildstar as the "new" game to try and exploit.
Assuming that a box price is going to deter gold spammers is a bit like thinking that tissue paper will protect you from hurricane force winds. It's a rather ineffective deterrent against scammers who steal people's credit card numbers and simply buy more accounts on somebody else's dime (ie. the rubes who do business with them).
So Elder Scrolls Online tried the exact method you were referring to. From my perspective "in the trenches" before, during and after launch day for that game, it was a demonstrably ineffective deterrent.

It's not our *only* defense, not by a long shot. And they will still have paid us to ban them. Not much we can do about how they paid for it. And there are, for the record, also many other reasons why we chose to have a box price.

I'm not familiar with the real war plan for dealing with the gold spammers.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

" Shadow Elusive: Ideas have also been batted around for how we might allow the player missions to be found in game rather than in a building. These are NOT confirmed, but we've discussed how we might achieve it"
Sounds cool, but how would this then allow one to find a mission they're looking for? The oldschool way of searching for a [contact]?

LIke I said, we haven't confirmed any particular plans to achieve it, so I can't answer that yet. My point was that it was something we've actively looked into.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

It's not our *only* defense, not by a long shot. And they will still have paid us to ban them. Not much we can do about how they paid for it. And there are, for the record, also many other reasons why we chose to have a box price.
I'm not familiar with the real war plan for dealing with the gold spammers.

Pay to get banned ... true ... but only if you can afford to dedicate a moderator to the chat channels (preferably 1 each) in which the spammers will ply their trade. Having worked customer service for a company that had no plans or policy for dealing with gold spammers or bot farmers until well after launch, I can basically guarantee you that MWM is going to *NEED* a set of plans and policies for dealing with the threat. After witnessing the "gold rush" of a new game overrunning the support staff after launch, I can categorically state with surety that "Wishful Thinking" is NOT a successful strategy or plan.


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I think one just needs a good

I think one just needs a good /Report system. In every game I've played (except WoW), players are Rabid about reporting spammers. My best experience with GM/Mods was in Age of Conan, where, in regards to spammers, the GMs explained some of the Exploits the spammers were using to stay un-detected. Basically revolved around having multiple free accounts and character-hopping before the GMs could react to the report.

In CoT, the account name is expected to be part of every character chat, so it ought to be easier to Ban. The trick will be in capturing the offending broadcast in the report and protecting the innocent.

Be Well!
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I think one just needs a good /Report system.

A good /Report system is a major chunk of the defense against gold spammers, but it isn't a Be All End All solution. You're going to need to have more than that. You need to have humans making decisions, preferably in as close to real time as possible.

A lot of games have a policy against Naming & Shaming for actions that draw the Banhammer. It could be argued that gold spamming in public channels ought to be an exception to that. Why? Because in order for Justice to be DONE, it must be SEEN ... to be done.

I know that in Elder Scrolls Online, whenever a GM announced that they were going to be dropping the Banhammer on bot farmers in the zone and invited everyone to tell the GM where the bots were, the Players practically CHEERED en masse(!), since that action told them something that silence never could.


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It might, almost, be Worth It

It might, almost, be Worth It to have 'Ban Spam'. Broadcast notifications that "xxaccountxx has been banned for spamming, thank you for your participation."

However, yes, as you say, Red, it will be important for /reports to capture the chat-log surrounding objectionable chat, so it can be clearly established who said what. And to have certified human beings making the decision to Ban or Not to Ban.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Now you make me want to drop

Now you make me want to drop a literal hammer on someone.

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Quote:
Quote:

A good /Report system is a major chunk of the defense against gold spammers, but it isn't a Be All End All solution. You're going to need to have more than that. You need to have humans making decisions, preferably in as close to real time as possible..

I am pretty sure a good /report system includes those who read and react to the report.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Now you make me want to drop a literal hammer on someone.

Maybe a giant Graphical hammer plummets from the sky and crushes the victim? Voice from the heavens says, "You Are Banned!"

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I have a transcript. It isn't complete and it changes format in the middle when I went to bed, but lemme see if I can post it as an attachment.

You da penguin.

In addition to what others have posted, it's quotes like this that make it worth sifting through the background noise:

Quote:

[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: It's a crafting system, but for missions. Having a flowchart-based system, which is modular, is why it works

There's also this bit:

Quote:

[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: Anyways, why I asked about FFXIV, it is one of the games where we can compare a CoH-like story narrative structure against a later revamp.

[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: Story development is actually geared along arcs, where a story arc will run from bottom-to-top. They will interweave with others as well, but the goal is not to release "1-10 level content"

[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: one issue, then "11-20" the next

[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: As each path can interlink with the other paths, over time the available pathways becomes very complex, and unique, for each player.

Cinnder and I have talked a bit about the common quest hub approach, and having an over-arcing storyline that presumes the character is The One True Hero, versus CoH's story arcs. The latter is a much more elegant approach since the events of that story arc are important to that NPC and they tell a story. They are several related missions rather than a few pieces of unrelated fluff ("Those zebras are stealing my carrots, kill 'em!" "Those wolves are after my rabbits, kill 'em!" "Those bears are stealing my laundry, kill 'em!" "Say, have I mentioned there's a group of orc brigands in that cave down there? Kill 'em!"). I feel that such story arcs are much better suited to MMOs, in contrast to the more tabletop gaming style "save the kingdom (zone)" campaigns.

Ooooooh:

Quote:

[Broadcast] Canadian Maiden: Interesting....basically you are saying each update is an alts worth of content?

[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: about half an alts worth of content I'd say.

Also:

Quote:

[Broadcast] ConundrumofFurballs: for launch, we will have 4 paths: Hero and Villain North, and Hero and Villain south. Post launch? Time will tell...

And something I'd been wondering about for a while:

Quote:

[Broadcast] Canadian Maiden: well you brought up realism....so i would also like to know if face models are going to be photo realistic or will the be similar to CoH in that they have a more comic book feel....or both

[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: Face models are along CoH's methods.
[Broadcast] Doctor Tyche: And Cheranne strikes exactly why, Uncanny Valley

About zones:

Quote:

(11:42:19 PM) Mira Mho: Will you do Zones, ala CoH, or make it one big contiguous world?

(11:42:27 PM) Doctor Tyche: system requirements, too early to have a hard one set

- - - - -
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
Now you make me want to drop a literal hammer on someone.

Maybe a giant Graphical hammer plummets from the sky and crushes the victim? Voice from the heavens says, "You Are Banned!"
Be Well!
Fireheart

I suggested this a long time ago internally, but it was thought to be immersion breaking.

Orange outfits for costume violations (I was thinking Zig rather than Guantanamo) also didn't seem to be too popular.

Tech Team and Forum Moderator

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Plexius wrote:
Plexius wrote:

There are 4 "paths" [chains of story arcs, I think, but I could use some clarification] planned for launch (ConundrumofFurballs, line 915)

To clarify what a Path is:

Basically, at least at launch, it is a character's journey from start to max level. We have the four primary paths roughed out, and are in the process of getting them written up thoroughly.

These four paths focus on the basics of the game world. There is an easily defined line between North Titan and South Titan, due to the presence of Steward's Bay. There will be at least two alignments at launch: Hero and Villain. Given those four basic concepts, we have four paths which will be available at launch: Hero North, Villain North, Hero South, and Villain South.

Each of these paths have a number of story arcs with an overall common theme (Spandex Hero, Gang Boss, etc.), even if it's not apparent at first.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Conundrum of Furballs

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I have a transcript. It isn't complete and it changes format in the middle when I went to bed, but lemme see if I can post it as an attachment.

Thank-you for recording, assembling, and posting this!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B000APIPZC?ref_=pe_584750_33951330

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Quote:
This other system being discussed here is for custom crafting missions for you to share with your friends or in general.
Imagine ...
Imagine if in City of Heroes, there were Contacts who handed out Missions that allowed you to PICK your Invention Salvage Reward.
Need an Arcane Silver, but think the Market has been overrun by price gouging Ebil Marketeers? Go find the Contact who will let you run Missions that reliably award the type of Salvage you need as the Mission Reward.
Theoretically, you could even set things up such that the "Salvage Missions" are little mini-stories in and of themselves, with 1 Mission (Common), 2 Missions (Uncommon) or even 4 Missions (Rare) chained together as an expectation (ie. EARN your pay). This would then give a Content Oriented means of reliably acquiring Crafting components, without being at the mercy of the RNG or the whims of the Market's fluctuations in supply, demand and overt manipulations. Having an alternative means of supply ought to cut down on attempts to "corner the market" and engage in Market PvP for certain commodities.

Get out of my head...it's too crowded in there already!

I had the same thought but could only just get here. I'm a firm believer in alternate ways to do things including gaining rewards.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Why in the world would you think we'd do this in other games man? That's just bad taste. Give us some credit.

Considering all your other communication failures, I wouldn't put it past you.

Quote:

Paragon Chat isn't 'another game', as I see it. It's a social media platform very specialized for CoH players. As such, it's fair game (within reason - can't be hurting the quality of life of the people there) for all the successor projects. Paragon Chat represents the common point of all of us who once played. The only real game we'd do this in is our own.

Pure sophistry. Does this mean that as soon as Paragon Chat gain other lost features (like combat) that it doesn't become a "social media platform very specialised for CoH players". Or will it forever be something that you will allows to use.

Does this mean that Valiance Online would be allowed to hold similar things in early City of Titan builds. I mean, it isn't feature complete, so it could be viewed as a highly specialised Social media platform for CoT players.

The fact that you USE the term "CoH players" gives me the impression that you feel that ANY game that they play would be fair game.

I won't even go into the fact that you only ever mentioned the chat on this forum, and not your twitter page/both facebook groups/kickstarter update. Seriously, if you cannot even communicate stuff like this out you need to get your communication chain sorted out.

Take your time, work out what you want to do... if you are going to make an event at the drop of a hat, don't be surprised if it backfires due to lack of knowledge.

Lets put it this way, if you had said at another time "Hey, we are thinking of doing this in Paragon Chat", I would have been a lot more calm about it, and come up with the same arguments as to why you shouldn't do it...

Or if you WERE insistent on using it in Paragon Chat, what you could have done instead (ie streamed Paragon Chat over Twitch, and used Paragon Chat purely as a backdrop to the stream, with more of the interactions being over Twitch.)

Quote:

1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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Quote:
Quote:

Pure sophistry. Does this mean that as soon as Paragon Chat gain other lost features (like combat) that it doesn't become a "social media platform very specialised for CoH players". Or will it forever be something that you will allows to use..

I'm pretty sure that paragon chat will never be anything more than a social media platform.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

It might, almost, be Worth It to have 'Ban Spam'. Broadcast notifications that "xxaccountxx has been banned for spamming, thank you for your participation."

So long as such notifications come from an Admin source that cannot be spoofed (so people can trust in and rely on it), I agree that there is merit in the notion. It's kind of hard for people to claim that "the devs" aren't doing anything when they receive notices saying that "the staff" is actually doing something about the problem. Again, this falls into the "receive confirmation" notion that Shadow Elusive and I discussed earlier in another thread about the meaning of being a Community Manager. For most offenses, Naming & Shaming by MWM Staff would be considered inappropriate ... but for gold spamming? Nah, I think that Naming & Shaming to report banhammer action would be highly appropriate and appreciated. For one thing, it conclusively demonstrates that support staff are "on the case" and actively defending the gaming experience from what amounts to internet trolls.

[Admin@MWM] @account has been banhammered for gold spamming.

Fireheart wrote:

However, yes, as you say, Red, it will be important for /reports to capture the chat-log surrounding objectionable chat, so it can be clearly established who said what. And to have certified human beings making the decision to Ban or Not to Ban.

Indeed. The "ideal" functionality that I would want to see (as a chat moderator on staff) would be one where all that is required is right-click on the name of the chat message to open a menu of options. One of those first tier options will be Report Spam. Upon selecting Report Spam, a new UI window opens requesting an explanation of the type of spam being reported, with one of the options being Gold Spam (others could include Trade Spam or other varieties of spam, including a Describe In Your Own Words "freestyle" text description option).

Upon clicking OKAY on the Report, the system automatically includes the name@account (and character ID and location of character when the message was sent) and text message (plus its channel) that triggered the Report in an automatically generated ticket that gets delivered to support staff at MWM for review and possible action. You WANT to have a Human In The Loop for making decisions based on established policies which can set thresholds for how many reports are needed before summary action against the account can be applied, rather than relying on an automated system. Why? Because automated systems can be manipulated and "duped" by a sufficiently large collection of Players operating (maliciously) in concert to game the system.

Duplicate the above parameters for reporting other forms of Harassment on the personal rather than broadcast level and you will have created a powerful tool that generates automatically formatted support tickets which can be easily datamined in aggregate to search for patterns and trends.


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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Pure sophistry. Does this mean that as soon as Paragon Chat gain other lost features (like combat) that it doesn't become a "social media platform very specialised for CoH players". Or will it forever be something that you will allows to use.

You mean if Paragon Chat becomes a business?

If the Titan Network people have a problem with MWM doing this in Paragon Chat I'm certain they'll be in touch. Don't assume that there is a problem or a fight and, most of all, don't try to fight someone else's fight for them.

- - - - -
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote:
Pure sophistry. Does this mean that as soon as Paragon Chat gain other lost features (like combat) that it doesn't become a "social media platform very specialised for CoH players". Or will it forever be something that you will allows to use..
I'm pretty sure that paragon chat will never be anything more than a social media platform.

Yup. Even with PvP, if they can pull that off, I'd call it that. Heck, I think that was the maker's intent to begin with. Hence my own approach. Once we have our own game though, we'll probably stop using Paragon Chat anyway. And of course, if Tony or Codewalker were to ask us to stop for whatever reason, we'll respect that and back off.

But considering how popular it's turning out to be, I don't expect that. My little casual meet greet and question session has attracted a LOT more attention than I'd expected. Demands for logs everywhere, team members asking to hop on the next one, and once a copy of the log was made, suddenly it's prompting lots of activity here too, which is awesome. And the event itself went very well. People enjoyed it, and I think we made a very good impression simply for making ourselves available in such a fashion, which was the original point.

I'd thought this was something me and the author of the update would do each time, but at this rate, I'm going to need to reduce the frequency to make the larger size of the endeavor more manageable. After every tech and art update I think, but we'll bring Lore along too and take questions on both. Put the two together. And of course next time we'll have an official log taker, and provide the file in the Discussion thread OP. Possibly also on our social media accounts.

I fully expect Valiance to make use of the Paragon Chat platform as well at some point. We've had no trouble getting along until now, I don't anticipate any trouble arranging not to step on each others toes. As soon as I heard about Paragon I knew, this was going to turn into the number one former player watering hole. And that meant I, as community manager, was going to need to pay it a lot of attention. I actually try to log in as Shadow Elusive periodically, if people who miss the Q&A's want to look for me

--------------------------

Community Manager
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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

But considering how popular it's turning out to be, I don't expect that. My little casual meet greet and question session has attracted a LOT more attention than I'd expected. Demands for logs everywhere, team members asking to hop on the next one, and once a copy of the log was made, suddenly it's prompting lots of activity here too, which is awesome. And the event itself went very well. People enjoyed it, and I think we made a very good impression simply for making ourselves available in such a fashion, which was the original point.

{singsong voice}

Called it!

{/voice}


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anytime a player base is able

anytime a player base is able to touchbase with devs in a real time setting it is ALWAYS going to be a popular event, even if the news being passed along is bad news. the potential for 'new' information, or information that expands upon some previous news, is something players will always be seeking. as such, realtime meet-n-greet type gatherings will be popular and generate a lot of awareness within said player base. this in turn spills over to forums associated to the game itself.

I personally am looking forward to the next time. :)

regarding this particular meeting I liked the news regarding the possibility of an option to turn OFF the alignment warning system when selecting missions. it allows for a more freestyle/organic type character in regards to alignment. with the option turn ON it allows for direct control on the part of the player to ensure that their character is of the alignment they want (superdoper good guy, ultra evil man, etc).

if this option becomes available I know I would probably run with it OFF more than on. makes for a more exciting and immersive feel to the game...where choices have an actual consequence. :)

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Quote:
Quote:

And of course, if Tony or Codewalker were to ask us to stop for whatever reason, we'll respect that and back off. .

You could always ask them if they mind....who knows they may offer to help promote the Q and A.

Regardless...I like the idea of you guys doing this every so often. Like I said earlier its like the Q and As you get at conventions but its much more open.

As far as this past one...the things I am most happy to hear

Quote:

Shadow Elusive: The lead sysetm will allow you to spontaneously acquire missions by beating up or interrogating mobs. Or other ways.

My absolute favorite feature from the KS updates (other than animation decoupling) is still in the works. Not hearing anything more on it from its update till now had me a bit worried it might have been dropped. Glad I was wrong...and that its even better than I originally thought.

Quote:

Doctor Tyche: A single building, or complex, may have multiple entrances.
.

Even if they just drop you in the same start point of the mission, multiple entrances allow character to enter in the one that suits the character type.....Tough guy busts in through the front door, sneaky guy uses air ducts ect. Even better is if the entrances offer different start points.

Quote:

Doctor Tyche: Bases will use the same map construction core as mission maps
.

Presumably this means if you can see it in the game you can put it in the base...including npcs and multi level maps. BIG joy at that idea.

Quote:

Canadian Maiden: Interesting....basically you are saying each update is an alts worth of content?

Doctor Tyche: about half an alts worth of content I'd say..

Given that playthoughs will be different based on a characters alignment and faction favor and that branching storylines are being used....this keeps the game fresh much longer.

Quote:

Doctor Tyche: day/night is working already. Seasons not planned for launch, but on the plate for later on. Zone themes are planned. And arcs will adjust due to inputs.

Arcs being affected by different inputs....that's so unbelievably awesome.

Quote:

Doctor Tyche: We are aiming for more realism in both density and scale.

This was in regards to the city as a whole.

Quote:

Doctor Tyche: It's not like CoH, where you have Kings Row as one map, Steel Canyon as another..

The city itself will have a more natural flow to it than the jarring war walls of CoH

Quote:

Doctor Tyche: Face models are along CoH's methods.
.

I like the comic book feel so was happy to hear this. Not really interested in seeing the pores on my character.

Quote:

Shadow Elusive: We are aiming to be friendly to lower end builds. That's as specific as we can get.

This is in relation to a computer build.....the fact the game won't be only for high end machines is very nice to hear....too many games now tend to push that envelope and it limits the appeal.

Quote:

Canadian Maiden: I am assuming the game will include a respec of sorts...will it be a complete respec or just power/augment selection

Doctor Tyche: not a complete, but more complete than CoH

Doctor Tyche: Recall, we have Specializations for classes

Doctor Tyche: So, can't swap primary powerset, but can secondary. Add in multiple builds, and you see the potential?.

Nice to see more options in regards to not only the respect but that multiple builds are planned.

I haven't been able to find it in the chat log but it was asked if the Costume creator is still on the plate for this fall and it seems it is.

If nothing else....this Q and A reaffirmed my interest in this project and has me chompin at the bit for its release.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

In CoT, the account name is expected to be part of every character chat, so it ought to be easier to Ban. The trick will be in capturing the offending broadcast in the report and protecting the innocent.

Like Burner Phones...?
A Burner Account? ;)

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I have a transcript. It isn't complete and it changes format in the middle when I went to bed, but lemme see if I can post it as an attachment.

Thanks VERY much for picking up this dropped ball, Pengy!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Pengy wrote:
Pengy wrote:

I have a transcript.

Much Grass, Pengy!

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Avatar courtesy of Satellite Nine.
If you can't see an image I've posted, please let me know!

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Nice to see more dev to

Nice to see more dev to player exchange, sorry to see the choice of Paragon Chat as the venue. I would have preferred to able to participate on more neutral ground. I give those guys over there a very wide berth out of respect that our world views differ radically and my presence would most probably be seen as that of a troll. I keep pushing for more MWM independence and the forging of a unique identity. What I get is more of a steady diet of this notion that displaced CoH player equals The Titan Network equals the core identity MWM. That is a shame. At least the transcripts will be useful.

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Quote: I keep pushing for

Quote:
I keep pushing for more MWM independence and the forging of a unique identity. What I get is more of a steady diet of this notion that displaced CoH player equals The Titan Network equals the core identity MWM. That is a shame. At least the transcripts will be useful{/quote]

Considering this was intended to be a spiritual successor to CoH for displaced players and that The Titan Network is the most visible gathering spot for them it would be foolish to not consider that a source to get the word out. Your conclusion that MWM = Titan Network seems a bit undercooked as the marketing machine of MWM has not even started yet to show it has its own identity.

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Quote: I keep pushing for
Quote:

I keep pushing for more MWM independence and the forging of a unique identity. What I get is more of a steady diet of this notion that displaced CoH player equals The Titan Network equals the core identity MWM. That is a shame. At least the transcripts will be useful

Considering this was intended to be a spiritual successor to CoH for displaced players and that The Titan Network is the most visible gathering spot for them it would be foolish to not consider that a source to get the word out. Your conclusion that MWM = Titan Network seems a bit undercooked as the marketing machine of MWM has not even started yet to show it has its own identity.

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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

Nice to see more dev to player exchange, sorry to see the choice of Paragon Chat as the venue. I would have preferred to able to participate on more neutral ground. I give those guys over there a very wide berth out of respect that our world views differ radically and my presence would most probably be seen as that of a troll. I keep pushing for more MWM independence and the forging of a unique identity. What I get is more of a steady diet of this notion that displaced CoH player equals The Titan Network equals the core identity MWM. That is a shame. At least the transcripts will be useful.

More a proof of concept for the format than anything for continued use. We proved that the use of an avatar chat system did give the access and interest with few drawbacks.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Does this mean what I think

Does this mean what I think it means Tyche?

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Does this mean what I think it means Tyche?

Of course Islandtrevor, but where will we get rubber pants at this hour?

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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LoL. I forgot to include does

LoL. I forgot to include does this mean what I think it means in relation to the end of this year. Yes I'm fishing but my hope is if I keep it vague enough you may confirm my thinking even though we both know everyone will get it anyway.

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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

Nice to see more dev to player exchange, sorry to see the choice of Paragon Chat as the venue. I would have preferred to able to participate on more neutral ground. I give those guys over there a very wide berth out of respect that our world views differ radically and my presence would most probably be seen as that of a troll. I keep pushing for more MWM independence and the forging of a unique identity. What I get is more of a steady diet of this notion that displaced CoH player equals The Titan Network equals the core identity MWM. That is a shame. At least the transcripts will be useful.

my only concern with this is that it seems to want to foster a "Us vs Them" mentality. personally I hope all the projects work and speaking for myself I will try them all out and the one that fits best will get my long term patronage. hopefully, that will be City of Titans, if not...so it goes. none the less I think we all should be encouraging of all the projects currently being worked on and avoid this idea that one is better than the other or we should avoid X for Y reason. part of the charm in the CoH community was the openness and willingness to help one another and I believe this should spill over into the various projects.

will individuals have a project the prefer over another? you bet! yet, we should not become so closed off that we start to foster a level of antagonism towards one another. to do so will cause the entire community to break down and become the exact opposite of what we are/were....and then we are nothing more than another average MMO out there with a buncha closed minded folks haunting various forums.

regarding the choice of venue. I believe it was one born of convenience and given it wasn't meant to be anything official it was a cool place to casually to a lil chitchat about the recent update, in a much beloved known location. I suspect that given Dr. T's remark above that once they get the character creator up and running for CoT they are/will considering holding all following gatherings on their own lil chat server...which would be immensely awesome! once that happens (assuming it does) you will have the unique identity your looking for.

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Quote:
Quote:

I suspect that given Dr. T's remark above that once they get the character creator up and running for CoT they are/will considering holding all following gatherings on their own lil chat server...which would be immensely awesome! once that happens (assuming it does) you will have the unique identity your looking for..

Dagnabit White....you spoiled my clever way to get Tyche to confirm this.

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Dagnabit White....you spoiled my clever way to get Tyche to confirm this.

ask a clever question, get a clever answer...that typically still leaves room for doubt and questions. given I suck at dancing I tend to be more plain spoken....plus, less chance to be miss understood in the world of the interwebs. :p

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

does this mean what I think it means

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Of course Islandtrevor, but where will we get rubber pants at this hour?


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Wasn't really mad white...

Wasn't really mad white....was joking...my attempt to get tyche to confirm this was pretty blatant

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never even entered my mind

never even entered my mind that you were. :)

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It's as Peregrine said.

It's as Peregrine said. Paragon Chat is free and theoretically available to all (and legal, amazingly enough), making it an acceptable temporary measure. But, the moment we have a viable platform of our own? Over we go. Right now there's not much for us to be independent with. It wasn't supposed to be a high enough profile event to warrant twitch (that is the other part Peregrine got right, the style we were aiming for).

Now I know it simply won't stay casual, we need to re-assess the whole idea.

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The size changes the

The size changes the implications of using Paragon Chat you see

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Fireheart
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I see Titan Network and

I see Titan Network and Paragon Chat as useful resources for the community. We should enjoy them!

Assigning ulterior motives is of no value.

Carry on, MWM!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

islandtrevor72 wrote:
Does this mean what I think it means Tyche?

Of course Islandtrevor, but where will we get rubber pants at this hour?

Troz!

(insert pithy comment here)

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Personally, I hadn't even

Personally, I hadn't even realized Paragon Chat was a thing, so thanks for bringing that to my attention :D ... Needless to say, I installed that and fooled around for a while. Thanks for Chugging along guys!

Stalkers don't die: They simply... Disappear.

Shard (not verified)
Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Hmm! Does this mean it should be quite easy to troubleshoot and update/change missions?
Any chance that you'll log this Paragon Chat event so we can get a transcript of this event, since it sounds like it'll amount to an AMA?

That's a component. The bigger is it's going to make it dead simple as an interchange format between toolchains and the server. The biggest formatting issue we should have are dropped/extra columns which should be readily eyeballable.

Shard (not verified)
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

In CoT, the account name is expected to be part of every character chat, so it ought to be easier to Ban. The trick will be in capturing the offending broadcast in the report and protecting the innocent.
Be Well!
Fireheart

To clarify. The account name will not be part of every chat. The Global will. This is an important distinction. Precisely how visible the global will be remains to be seen. I presently expect that they will be a disabled toggle by default easily seen by mouseover or similar action to preserve screen real estate.

Battle plans and enemies... :)

Shard (not verified)
Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

I suggested this a long time ago internally, but it was thought to be immersion breaking.

There's nothing immersion breaking about Ortillary.. Except maybe survivors.

Alternately - You didn't think we'd give WarCabbit a hammer and not expect it to be used?

Shard (not verified)
Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Considering all your other communication failures, I wouldn't put it past you.

Dude.

Gangrel]
Pure sophistry. Does this mean that as soon as Paragon Chat gain other lost features (like combat) that it doesn't become a "social media platform very specialised for CoH players". Or will it forever be something that you will allows to use.
[/quote[

This was a one-off. It was done for many reasons, not all of them obvious.

[quote=Gangrel

wrote:

Does this mean that Valiance Online would be allowed to hold similar things in early City of Titan builds. I mean, it isn't feature complete, so it could be viewed as a highly specialised Social media platform for CoT players.

Given that we have historically had a pretty good relationship with them, I would not considered it out of the realm of possibility - should they choose to do so. I daresay that Golden Girl would be welcome as well, should she choose to do so.

Gangrel wrote:

The fact that you USE the term "CoH players" gives me the impression that you feel that ANY game that they play would be fair game.

That's an.. interesting.. leap of logic. Let me suggest something a teensy bit more likely. There's a pretty reasonable expectation that the folks most likely to be aware of and interested in Paragon chat are folks who are going to overlook the ancient video engine, lack of gameplay, and somewhat convoluted install to get it in place are those with a sense of nostalgia for CoH. This simplifies, pretty sanely, to "CoH Players."

Gangrel wrote:

I won't even go into the fact that you only ever mentioned the chat on this forum, and not your twitter page/both facebook groups/kickstarter update. Seriously, if you cannot even communicate stuff like this out you need to get your communication chain sorted out.

Sometimes a limited audience is limited for a reason.

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Shard wrote:
Shard wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
In CoT, the account name is expected to be part of every character chat, so it ought to be easier to Ban. The trick will be in capturing the offending broadcast in the report and protecting the innocent.
Be Well!
Fireheart

To clarify. The account name will not be part of every chat. The Global will. This is an important distinction. Precisely how visible the global will be remains to be seen. I presently expect that they will be a disabled toggle by default easily seen by mouseover or similar action to preserve screen real estate.
Battle plans and enemies... :)

Quite right, I completely blanked on the proper term, 'Global-name', which will, of course, be associated with a person's account, but only in MWM's internal records.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Shard (not verified)
Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

I keep pushing for more MWM independence and the forging of a unique identity. What I get is more of a steady diet of this notion that displaced CoH player equals The Titan Network equals the core identity MWM. That is a shame. At least the transcripts will be useful.

Aside from the big Venn Diagram overlap, I have to say I find this more than a little bafflling.

Are you suggesting we should avoid known hangouts of a non trivial chunk of our anticipated audience, particularly the one where the project was originally spawned? Just hunker down in our forums and social media accounts and pretend the enter customer base is already here and forget where we came from?

I'm not sure what you think we should be doing differently here.

Shard (not verified)
islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

LoL. I forgot to include does this mean what I think it means in relation to the end of this year. Yes I'm fishing but my hope is if I keep it vague enough you may confirm my thinking even though we both know everyone will get it anyway.

I believe Dr. Tyche has already confirmed the truth. Rubber pants will be in the initial costume set.

Shard (not verified)
whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

I suspect that given Dr. T's remark above that once they get the character creator up and running for CoT they are/will considering holding all following gatherings on their own lil chat server...which would be immensely awesome! once that happens (assuming it does) you will have the unique identity your looking for.

I can not confirm there may or may not be an issue in Jira about this particular topic with a due date assigned to it. Nor is there a related party barge.

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Shard wrote:
Shard wrote:

islandtrevor72 wrote:
LoL. I forgot to include does this mean what I think it means in relation to the end of this year. Yes I'm fishing but my hope is if I keep it vague enough you may confirm my thinking even though we both know everyone will get it anyway.

I believe Dr. Tyche has already confirmed the truth. Rubber pants will be in the initial costume set.

I knew it! We are getting a Fly Fishing mini-game. :D

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Zip it. Zip it good!

Zip it. Zip it good!

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Shard wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:
LoL. I forgot to include does this mean what I think it means in relation to the end of this year. Yes I'm fishing but my hope is if I keep it vague enough you may confirm my thinking even though we both know everyone will get it anyway.

I believe Dr. Tyche has already confirmed the truth. Rubber pants will be in the initial costume set.

I knew it! We are getting a Fly Fishing mini-game. :D

Fishing? Did someone say "fishing mini-game"? Pretty sure I made a suggestion along those lines awhile back. ;-)

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This article was simply

This article was simply brilliant. I have been trying out other games as I wait for this game to debut, but wow.

This was an amazing update because it explains the forward thinking and process transparently (with regards to the way the game is being put together).

Flyfree

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

At the last City of Heroes Player Summit in the spring of 2012, there was a panel where the Devs were asking the all important question of "what makes something EPIC?"
Other people in line were mentioning stuff like Giant Monsters and Hamidon Raids and Incarnate Trials ... all the really big and flashy content. Then when it got to be my turn at the microphone, I mentioned this exact point that Timothius references, that random civilians would be talking about my character's latest exploits in Local chat (complete with word balloons). Even though it was functionally a "rinky-dink" thing and it didn't last very long at all, it still felt ... meaningful ... that the game world RESPONDED to your accomplishments in this sort of "man on the street" kind of way. It gave the immersive illusion that what you DID affected the game world, even if it was in some trivial, non-permanent way.
Suffice it to say, THAT feature of City of Heroes had better be put into the spreadsheet/flowchart for making Missions as a Standard Feature, without which your Mission is incomplete. You could even put the "twitter limit" on message length at 140 characters for the feature, just to keep civilian NPCs from "waxing poetic" with chat diarrhea.

It has both its good and bad points — although the "through the eyes of" filter may help alleviate some of the worst downsides.

It would also reduce one of the main concerns that immediately jumps to mind here: unlike the missions themselves, where someone has to specifically select the mission and run it in order to be exposed to the user-generated content, if it isn't filtered this would increase the "audience" to the entire player-base, or at least those that might ever wander nearby.

Consider, for a moment, what happens if a gold spammer creates a set of missions and runs through them, just to get it broadcasting… or worse, creates a set of missions that *other* folks run, without knowing (until afterward) what will happen. From a technical perspective, trying to make the system able to support "flag this as spam" on messages spoken by random NPCs would require a pretty non-trivial amount of "under the hood" work.

I can't speak to exactly how much, or any sort of "is it worth it?" evaluation, but I can say that it turns what is otherwise a fairly simple extension of NPC AI (even "limit to only the players in range" isn't all that difficult, as it is a basic engine concept) into a much larger thing, probably an entire sub-system of its own, because the built-in pieces are really pretty simplistic in how they approach it, and don't include any straightforward way to tack metadata onto the message that stays with it.


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DeathSheepFromHell
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Shard wrote:
Shard wrote:

Minotaur wrote:
I suggested this a long time ago internally, but it was thought to be immersion breaking.

There's nothing immersion breaking about Ortillary.. Except maybe survivors.

+1 for propagating the meme :)


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My personal take on the whole

My personal take on the whole question of gold spammers, et al:

Have a 'ban' channel that can be subscribed to. Not to name and shame, simply to provide visibility into what is otherwise a *completely* opaque process.

Alternatively, and even better, have tickets in the support queue *expected* to be a two-way communication, even if that communication is expected to be a "form letter" for stuff that only really needs the relevant names / etc. filled in. Plan for it in the tools up front, with support for features such as:

  • Large recipient headers
  • "Private" address mode available to at least staff (i.e. not showing the full recipient list, at least to non-staff, only their own info)
  • Filters to easily "box up" a group of complaints that are related
  • The ability to take a group of complaints and apply a single action to them at one shot
  • The ability to auto-reply to ticket requests filed about an already-dealt-with problem with a "the reported user is banned" or whatever
  • … but still keep counts of those reports, for statical analysis reasons if nothing else

(yes, I did my time in the trenches, why do you ask?)

Ideally, store at least a week's worth of chat history in "slow access" storage (i.e. "it is okay if it takes a second or two to find the thing requested by ID" or "it is okay if it takes a few seconds to find everything matching X") and simply include a reference to the unique ID of the original message in the report. That not only lets you see the line involved, it also allows search *around* that line for broader context in cases where the admin feels it is warranted. It also prevents falsifying logs.

Sound like a tall order? It is. Unfortunately, it is also "what is necessary in order to have any hope of effectively dealing with gold / level / etc spammers" when they can be showing up at rates of one every few *seconds*, especially during the initial rush.

Frankly, also support "locked to private messages only" and "locked to messaging admins only" as valid states short of a full ban, to allow for mitigation of damage at extremely high speed, even if the humans are only able to process and evaluate the reports at a saner pace. No technical solution can solve a social problem, but it can certainly help with mitigation and damage control.


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That all sounds like the

That all sounds like the voice of reason and experience. I had to report a gold spammer last night (in another game) and, while the 'click on the name and select report' function was well done, I had to report each of eight instances, separately, as 'gold selling' and as 'spam'. Meaning I might be accused of spamming in my own right, since I couldn't 'box up' all eight messages and report and flag them as a unit, had to report each one twice.

Worse, I doubt I was the only one tagged by this 'abuse bot', nor the only one to report it, and I could clearly see from the @handles involved that it was a throw-away character on a throw-away account. And this was a game with a 'buy the box' subscription model. It makes me wonder how the gold-sellers can stay in business.

Anyway, I approve of the rough model for ticket resolution described above. Well done, DeathSheep.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

And this was a game with a 'buy the box' subscription model. It makes me wonder how the gold-sellers can stay in business.

Simple. They "buy the box" using somebody else's credit card number. That way, they aren't paying their own dime to buy it, somebody else (ie. the mark) is. When you're in the "business" of scamming people, how big of a hop, skip and a jump is it to getting someone's credit card info to make your own purchases using their card?


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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

Zip it. Zip it good!

;)

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Dang it.... why cant i just

Dang it.... why cant i just subscribe to a Blacklist that gets updated by the playerbase? :P
If an account gets flagged XX+ times by players that aren't mostly in one SG, it's good enough for me. ;)

As long as its not on by default and can be Opted Into by any player, MWM cant be made accountable. >:D

MWM wouldn't have to do as much then. Well, besides keep adding filters to make it better for us, and Moderators. :D
Filter by a few fields...
ex: account creation date: < 1 Week, < 1 Month, X Months, < 1 Year, X Years... etc...

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It sound similar to what many

Edited to replace the word 'games' with 'fans'

It sound similar to what many FPS fans do. Those are seldom run by the actual game company so why not set one up yourself Izzy....I'm pretty sure you would know how.

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Maybe someday. :)

Maybe someday. :)

But I rather work on, or help someone integrate TTS with the Chat Log, and NPC Text dialogs.

And have it be a separate application that runs in the background (system tray) which turns text from CoT into Synthesized speech. So that UGC created Stories can have a way to Copy the NPC text from the dialogs and the TTS Synthesizer thats running in s separate process will check the Clipboard for the XML'ed formatted text, with details on how the voice should be synthesized, besides just Male1, Male2, Famele1, Female2... like Age, Pitch, Accent, Dialect, etc... once the TTS SDK's add those options.

Yes.. this means all the Richtext (RichTTS) formatting tags wont be visible in the NPC text dialogs, but will eat up a little more space reducing the amount of your UGC stories. :/

But, it will be much more immersive.. since a UGC creator might also specify a type of background music loop for the mood and it can change from Paragraph to paragraph through RichTTS. Well, RichTTS isnt a standard, just something im hoping becomes one oneday. ;D

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