In City of Heroes, defeated Foes were the source of Drops ... that were either useful, could be traded or were vendor bait.
So what did defeated Foes drop that would go into your Inventory?
[list][*]Inspirations
[*]Enhancements
[*]Salvage
[*]Recipes[/list]
For the purposes of what we're talking about here, I'm going to "handwave" Experience and INF for the moment, although I am going to circle back around to them.
So ... Inspirations. Those are basically going to get subsumed into the Momentum/Reserves system. In City of Titans these will no longer Drop.
Enhancements. There actually does need to a "market" for these types of things in City of Titans, but using a random drop system like City of Heroes did is rarely all that useful in practice. Now, admittedly, City of Heroes had WAY TOO MANY FLAVORS of Enhancements to wade through, ensuring that MOST of what would Drop for you would be [b]stuff you don't need[/b], resulting in a glut of vendor bait (needed to buy the next round of SOs every 5 Levels until reaching the Level Cap).
Salvage and Recipes were only used for Crafting ... and Market PvP. But the way they "worked" in game was essentially as Permission Slips, granting characters "permission" to create Inventions.
Here's what I'm wondering ...
What If ... City of Titans doesn't have Enhancement Shops covering specific Level ranges ... because Enhancements (or Boosts, or whatever City of Titans is going to call them) are ALL crafted by Players ... rather than being "bought" from an NPC who has an infinite supply of the buy, and Dropped by Foes that are always respawning and getting Defeated.
So instead of going and "buying" your Enhancements, you go to a Crafting Station and MAKE your Enhancements.
Alright, so instead of having TO/DO/SO/HO ... instead you've just got IO. Inventions only.
The major effect of going to an Inventions Only system means that Enhancements would only be MADE ON DEMAND rather than Dropping whether you wanted them or not. It would also mean that there could be a Market(!) for crafted Enhancements in which people who don't want to go to the trouble of making them can just "pay someone else" to do it for them.
Okay ... but how would these Inventions get made?
Well ... if you completely dispense with Salvage and Recipes, what are you left with for crafting materials? Reserves, Experience and Currency (ie. INF).
So imagine if making any of the Enhancements you needed simply cost you Reserves, XP and INF.
The Reserves cost would substitute for the Salvage and Recipes system and would represent "banking" a portion of your combat actions for future use.
The XP cost would be one of those voluntary things where you expend a fraction of the Total XP to your NEXT Level Up (say, 5-10%) per Enhancement you Invent. If this cost would put you below the threshold of having enough XP to be your current Level then you can't Invent another Enhancement until you've got enough surplus in your current Level to clear this requirement. NOTE: this would mean that the Level Cap wouldn't be Level 29 completed +1XP more like City of Heroes did, but instead the Level Cap would be a "Full Level" of XP that could be drawn down to "spend" to make Inventions with.
The INF cost is self explanatory. We know what "currency" is used for.
With such a "Invent Rather Than Vendor" system you'd have something where PCs at the Level Cap have a "sink" allowing them to burn off their excess resources in a way that can benefit the entire community of the game through the medium of a Market.
Set up the Inventions to be "Level Agnostic" such that they don't suffer Level Decay (like TO/DO/SO did) and you'll be able to get both a Supply and a Demand for these Inventions going ... AND have it be one where the NPCs [i]can participate in that Market[/i] in such a way as to be a moderating influence and overall "sink" for excesses of resources that the game generates so you don't wind up with flooded markets and hyper-inflation.
The virtue of such a system is that rather than dumping Inventory upon the PCs and then making it the Player's responsibility to "dispose" of all those Drops ... instead the Players have to be able to Plan Ahead and anticipate what they're going to need (or what the Market "needs" right now) and jump through the hoops accordingly [i]when it is convenient for them to do so[/i]. Also, without an Enhancement Decay system in place, Inventions are "eternal" ... barring some kind of Death Penalty system or other means of "destroying" Enhancements once they've been slotted (note: not required, but an option). This means that Inventions slotted at Level 1 could still be in use at Level Cap, because the Inventions themselves are Level "agnostic" in the larger scheme of things, leveling the playing field and consolidating the market.
An additional side effect of such a system would be that Inventory space could be kept relatively small (ie. 10 slots should suffice) since there wouldn't be all that much pressure to store massive quantities of "stuff" on your PC (except for really major Market PvP actions).
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This idea is going to send some forum posters right over the edge. But you already know that. You also know that there is some unknown percentage of the game population that simply does not want to craft at all. I like to craft when I choose to craft. Making it mandatory is not IMO adding fun to the game. All it does is add a time sink to go along with the currency sink
If you want to sink your time into crafting, be my guest. Just don't expect everyone to respond favorably to your idea
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
Or ... expect the crafters to do the crafting, and everyone else too busy to craft to go buy the products of the crafters on the Market (y'know, supply & demand).
As for sending people over the edge ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
LOOK OUT LITTLE DANCEING LADY! HE GONNA FALL ON YOU!
--Formerly Jorortis--
Note: Jorortis is still a character of mine and is still going to be in the super group, not Demirus, at least not yet...
... if you completely dispense with Salvage and Recipes, what are you left with for crafting materials? Reserves, Experience and Currency (ie. INF).
So imagine if making any of the Enhancements you needed simply cost you Reserves, XP and INF.
The Reserves cost would substitute for the Salvage and Recipes system and would represent "banking" a portion of your combat actions for future use.
If there is no salvage and there are no recipes, why bother calling it "crafting"?
Seriously. Why not just have a store in the center of the city that sells every possible enhancement for real world cash? Satellite stores could then be set up to offer a smaller selection of enhancements more likely to be in demand in the different areas and the satellite stores would accept only game cash.
One stop shopping, dig out your credit card. Bouncing from place to place to find what you need: spend your ingame rewards.
If you're trading in XP, Reserves, and Rewards, and getting enhancements in return why call it "crafting"?
I honestly don't see the logic behind this idea.
Is your sole intent here to create a crafting class and force other players to buy from them?
If so, I'm thinking that's essentially just another form of forcing people to play the game the way you personally prefer.
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I'm not seeing where this came from. Unless I'm misreading the OP, under the proposed plan anyone who hadn't just gained a level (and so doesn't have enough spare XP) could craft. Anyone who didn't want to craft could buy from other PCs or from NPC vendors...
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Redlynne has interesting ideas. I think those that promote an inclusive game should be adopted. Those that don't, shouldn't.
To me, this is an idea that does not promote an inclusive game
Loot in a superhero MMO is always going to be a semi-touchy subject because unlike the standard fantasy MMO paradigm of getting better armor or magic staves to get stronger there's a significant portion of the superhero genre where the idea of collecting "stuff" just doesn't have an obvious justification. Sure a gadgeteer (i.e. Batman) might benefit from better equipment, but how often did Superman or The Flash benefit from extra loot? So the key challenge is figuring out how to make a MMO game (a type of game which has historically relied on the acquisition of loot) fit with a debatably loot-unfriendly genre such as superheroes.
I think we can agree that CoH came fairly close to solving the problem of meshing superheroes with a loot-based game. Sure it had plenty of rough edges but I don't think CoT should be straying too far from the trail that CoH blazed. Some of the loot-oriented features that existed in CoH could (and likely should) be streamlined but I'm not sure eliminating the concept of "loop drops" altogether is a good idea.
I'd agree that we probably don't need multiple types of enhancements (like TO/DO/SO) and just settle on the equivalent of a single type (like CoH's IOs). I'd also agree that the idea of enhancement level decay might not really be that useful for the system. But no matter how important crafting becomes in CoT I think there should always be some kind of alternative for casual players that does not involve crafting either directly or indirectly via the market. A player should be able to have a viable character in CoT without having to be involved in the market and/or crafting at all.
Note that I said "viable character", not optimal. I would think that if you wanted to min/max your character that you would have to be involved in crafting and/or the market at least to some degree. The key here is that while many players might like to min/max their characters it should not be a requirement for everyone. The game needs to be flexible enough to handle both the power player and the causal player just like CoH managed to do for the most part.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I am not a fan of having "loot" as a reward in a superhero game of any sort. at least in the manner that said loot is in the form of gear that must be worn (head, chest, gloves, etc). it effectively hi-jacks a hero's concept from the player. CoH did a pretty durn good job, imo, of dodging the "loot" question. while it had enhancements, these enhancements could be looked at however the player wanted to in regards to the hero concept. CoH was able to make loot "generic" in a useful way...and given the information we have thus far it would 'appear' that CoT is going along this route as well...for which I say...Hurrah!
the only real "loot" drops in CoH was in the form of crafting materials. these I am ok with as it effectively leaves it up to the player to decide what they do with these items. given that casualness that CoH provided a player was not gimping themselves if they choose not to make use of said crafting drops.
regarding multiple types of enhancements...I actually kinda liked em, although I wouldn't have an issue if it was lowered...DO/SO/IO. I pretty much never used TO's and just waited it out till I could outfit with DO's. next came the big save for SO's (at least initially..after playing for years...well...influence wasn't really an issue...heh). IO's I picked up here an there, but honestly I was in no big rush for em as I was enjoying the game just fine with the enhancements I had slotted.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
I agree with Lothic and Whiteperegrine - I think COH did a good job with handling the question of "loot" in a supers game, and I wouldn't mind if CoT adapted the same concept.
Loot is a weird thing to me in this genre.
I've asked before about the ramifications for the alignment system, because it seems to me like we're robbing the people we beat, or at least tampering with evidence, but I've been assured that even though it makes no sense, there will be drops and they won't effect alignment.
That said I wouldn't mind if there were not drops. Or if only certain types of characters got drops.
I don't understand why there's this opposition to an inventor class as if this is somehow an elitist move.
It's not as if we're limited to one character per player.
Are we?
If you want an inventor make one, and let him send stuff to your other toons.
That's what I do in Dungeons & Dragons Online.
Mind you, in that game, anyone can craft, artificers are just better at it. But I have my artificer make all of my stuff, and send it through the shared bank to my other toons. That makes his crafting skill go up fast because he makes more stuff and they don't need to build up crafting skill before they can make the stuff they need.
Crafting just doesn't seem to suit every character.
I liked it when the Spider-man movie did away with the web shooters and gave Peter a web gland.
But No Drops?
Come on. Link isn't a crafter, but he gets bombs, arrows, deku nuts, deku seeds, hearts, and magic potions.
yes that's a different kind of game but characters who need it could find ammo on the right type of foes in this kind of world too.
and even if you don't need ammo, any hero might throw a grenade.
Finally inspirations were a nice touch, the name made it clear that they weren't a material object we were removing from bad guys, just some experience we could use later. Of course that made me think it was wrong to be able to buy them. I still do.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
The problem with making crafting limited to only one class of characters is that there are some people that only want to play one character. Ever. You will be penalizing those types of people by not allowing them the ability to craft their own stuff if that is the case. They will basically forever be at the mercy of the market or having to friend someone that is a crafter that will gladly craft anything for them. That could be a problem in and of itself based off of people like TMP who would rather not socialize with other people due to the experiences they've had in MMO games.
If you are having an issue with thinking that you are robbing someone after you've arrested them or tinkering with evidence, try thinking of it in the terms of you have been rewarded by arresting them. You do a great deed and you are given something in return for your services. It may not be the key to the city or some giant trophy, but it's a small token for your good deed. It just also happens that that small token is a missing piece you needed to finish designing some enhancement to make your powers better.
Sometimes I think people don't use their imagination enough, and it's funny considering there are a lot of people that try to "immerse" themselves into the game. Just goes to show that each person's ideas of "immersion" is different.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I realize that not wanting to team will cause me to miss out on some stuff, and I'm cool with that.
I would expect that someone determined to play only one character ever would be aware of the fact that he's also making himself miss out on a lot, and if that's what he's determined to do then he should accept the price for his choice. Just like me, he's chosen to limit himself in this way.
As for you're interpretation of loot, it has been suggested before but I find it a little difficult to swallow since we get the rewards immediately.
Besides my interpretation is more a humorous, Seinfeld type observation, than a complaint. Don't take it too seriously because I don't. Especially since I've been assured that it won't effect alignment.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Understood. The other draw back is the time it will take for a person to have to play their main character, then log out, log back in to "Crafter" character, spend X amount of time crafting, send items, log back out, log back in to main character, gather all the mailed items, equip items, then go back to playing their main character. It's just very tedious and time consuming. I'd much rather just have all characters have the ability to craft whatever items are needed than to have to have room for one specific character that can only do one specific task. Then have the constant logging in and out to play, craft, and equip. Time is money.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Very true. I do all that stuff in DDO and it's a pain. I can certainly see why other people might not want to do it.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Which, incidentally, is exactly what I was proposing in the first place. ANY character can perform the task of crafting Inventions ... provided they have the resources available to do so. I defined the resources needed for the task as being Reserves, Experience and Currency. Last I checked, I'm thinking that every PC in the game would have access to all of those resources ... although there could be specific circumstances in which a PC [i]might not have enough[/i] of one of those resources for a variety of possible reasons that can be attributed to Player Choices. I was expecting people to recognize that "deficiencies" of any of these resources on their PC would obviously be temporary conditions that could be resolved simply by playing the game (more).
Furthermore, I even stipulated that the results of crafting Inventions could be traded on the Market ... so even if Players don't want to have to do the work themselves, they can just go to the Market and pay someone else to do the job for them (ie. what "markets" are for). In other words, no one is "forced" to craft Inventions for themselves (and only themselves) ... although it would be possible for there to be a run on the Market resulting in a depletion of stocks. But then, that gets back to questions of Supply vs Demand, and it would be unreasonable to assume that Supply will remain zero forever while Demand remains greater than zero.
Now, I can certainly envision that for Roleplaying purposes, some Players may want to think of one (or more) of their PCs as being "crafter" types that do all the crafting work for all the PCs on their account. That's POSSIBLE, but not mandated by the game mechanics I'd laid out.
Furthermore, I can also envision the opportunity for having Crafting Badges which rely on counting up how many Inventions of each type a PC has created, and the offering of Resource Discounts based on how many Crafting Badges have been earned ... essentially creating an avenue towards making crafting a "profession" of sorts for those dedicated enough to pursue it. But, again, the game mechanics I laid out in my original post do not mandate such an outcome, but rather make it possible to do. And again, such a development would not "restrict" crafting of Inventions to specific characters, but rather reward those characters that make a hobby out of doing it.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I'd also prefer that if there's going to be crafting in CoT that all character types would have equal access to that system - I don't want there to be any kind of specific "crafting class" that has unique or favored abilities in that area.
As far as reconciling what crafting actually represents to each character I think it could be kept abstract enough that it would apply to any superhero character concept. One of the strengths of CoH that I hope will be carried over to CoT is that the enhancement (boost) system didn't technically represent "physical" loot. It was fairly easy to rationalize that enhancements represented martial arts "training" to the martial artist, better tech gadgets for the tech character, new magical knowledge for the magic character, and so on. With an open mind the crafting system can be shoehorned to fit with almost any character concept, even with the Superman-types who don't easily lend themselves to needing "loot" to improve themselves.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Agreed, Lothic. I'm angling more in favor of a "generic" system of "common" Inventions that are not only Level agnostic but also Origin agnostic so as to make them as interchangeable and tradeable as possible.
City of Heroes had something like over 100 SOs per Level, and a vendor who covered 3 Levels (say, 40, 45 and 50) had a menu of some 300+ individual Enhancements to scroll through. The Market was even worse, because of all the fragmentation involved in dividing up by Level and Origin before even getting to Purpose.
Now imagine a system where there's only [b]*10*[/b] types of Enhancements ... and they're all Level agnostic and have no Origin restrictions built into them ... and all of them get made by Players [i]on demand[/i]. That demand could either be because you've gained a Level and need to slot in new Enhancements, or because you've decided to change your build and are slotting for different purposes, or just because prices are high on the Market and you want to get in on the action (presumably by undercutting your competitors by a little bit so yours sell). So there would be a variety of "reasons" for demand to exist, and Enhancements would be generated to meet that demand [i]when and as it happens[/i] ... rather than having an endless supply of Enhancements Dropping [b]all the time[/b] whether you need (or want) them or not and then it's the Player's problem to find a way to "dispose" of them advantageously (ie. Vendor Bait).
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This is off tangent, but if there was a way to MOVE the global chat spamming of LTB (looking to buy) into the Market Listings, that would help, My Eyes! ;)
Simplest way I can think of to do that Izzy would be to put a Trade Chat window onto the Marketplace UI screen. Click the NPC to engage the Market Window and up pops a Trade Chat Box on one side of the window. All trade chatter can go there ... because if you're in a Market interacting with an NPC then you're there to Buy and/or Sell. Simple pairing of interests to comm system.
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Me Likes. +1
But I Still want a Craigs List market Listing of peoples WANTS... so SELLERS can Provide! ;D
Ummm, No Role Playing Allowed here though! :{
No WANT Ads for a Sexy Girl/Guy in Cat Unitard's for your enjoyment. :/
That's in a DIFFERENT UI window. ;D
That goes in the Personals section... And imagine the Missed Connections board.
"You had the most infectious laugh and a killer smile. I was the one dressed all in black lurking in the shadows. Send me a signal!"
Big banger looking for an explosive or fiery good time
Being able to put up "buy orders" which actually SHOW the sellers what prices people are looking to pay would help a lot.
Eve Online does it, so you know to sell at a certain station for more profit. Their market system is also ranged based so having buy/sell orders is essential to make it work. It also allows traders to actually *trade* in different regions.
Wildstar has buy orders for its crafting/consumables market. You can, if you so desire, just decide to put stuff up for 15 gold an item. But you can also see what prices people are paying *NOW* to get it. They might have a buy order up for 12 gold. The vendor price might be 8 gold[1]. It is up to YOU to decide "do I vendor it" or "do I sell it to another player for 12 gold" or "do I wait for another player to pay 15 gold for it".
The thing is, this choice is yours to make. And giving you more tools to make this educated guess helps. The other thing to remember as well, is that chances are you *could* end up buying consumable stuff (boosts) off the market that other players have made, with materials that they bought off you[2]
[1] Prices pulled out of rear end. Just an example though.
[2] Actually had this happen a few times, where a guildie has bought stuff of the market to make me something. Turns out that the mats that they bought were from ME in the first place, so I just gave him the money back.
Am I the only one who liked the double blind system CoH had? I found it more exciting than just getting a listing of what people were asking. That doesn't mean I think there needed some more information. Such as more than just the last five sales listed. Historic averages would also have been nice.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Count me in the same boat as you Syntax. I didn't have any issues with it either. Mostly the people who were anti-market, didn't want to spend the time learning the market, or were casual players that didn't have the money to buy from the market were the ones that hated it the most.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
+1
More than a few devs also liked the double blind system and some were pros at working the market and enjoyed that aspect of the game. Suffice to say we would like to keep the spirit of that same type of play while looking for ways to improve upon it. Ideas along those lines would be much more beneficial (not that we don't have ideas of our own, but your input is helpful).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I was a very casual market user and I didn't have a problem with it, though I agree it would have been nice to have a bit more history available.
Spurn all ye kindle.
The historic average or last year's average cost is a good one
My suggestions would be this:
Have a history of the last X sells. (I'm going to say 10, but others may want more. Perhaps a poll would be best to figure out the number?)
Have a history of the "Average" of the sells for the past X weeks. (I'm going to say 2, but again others may want more.)
Have a MSRP to compare what the price is in the Vendor stores that may also be selling the same item.
Have Public and Private Auction slots. This way you can sell either to anybody or a select group of people if you so desire.
Have time limits set by the person selling the item if they so desire.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
hmm.. like this?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/AVdERhu.png[/img]
*deep sigh of relief*
I really liked the CoH system. It is the only auction house style system I have ever encountered that I could wrap my mind around well enough to enjoy using it. Nothing else I have tried my hand at has measured up.
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I also liked the CoH system, although count me in for wanting more than a 5-transaction history. Double-blind with a lengthy history would work for me.
I'm obviously one of the few who sees the danger of that line of reasoning. There is a majority here on the forums who will constantly say "do it the way CoH did" and there's nothing wrong with that inherently.. but the MMO player audience at large is not represented by this small forum audience.
Can City of Titans be a success by catering only to the whim of those that want things the City of Heroes way in-spite of the fact that City of Heroes had issues keeping itself afloat in terms of both population and money..
Nostalgia is good but I am a staunch fan of NEW systems that incorporate the best parts of the old with what is competitive today and more-over what will lead to greater success tomorrow.
When games released after City of Heroes came with their versions of gear/inventory/loot systems they cite having gear and loot as a major factor in time investment from players. What evidence shows that this is no longer the case? Is it best for the game or just nostalgic?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I believe the "last 5" history was a deliberate choice, to limit information, and was part of the PvP idea behind the CoH market. However, I don't have any definitive quotes or evidence.
Just my $1/50
Know thy users, for they are not you.
"Preliminary optimization is the root of all evil." -Knuth
[color=#FF0000]Coding Lead[/color]
a.k.a. Mr Sigma, Mr. Stochastic, Balancing Act, The Oncoming Storm
I want to know what your last 10 comments were worth. :-)
Spurn all ye kindle.
Twenty cents.
Know thy users, for they are not you.
"Preliminary optimization is the root of all evil." -Knuth
[color=#FF0000]Coding Lead[/color]
a.k.a. Mr Sigma, Mr. Stochastic, Balancing Act, The Oncoming Storm
One: I like Red's idea and I should have read this before posting my idea in another thread. I didn't get the Permission Slip reference in that one until now.
Two: Don't call it Crafting if the term bothers you. Call it Enhancing or Improving instead. Captain America certainly didn't have to worry about Crafting much...but Training? He was all over that all the time.
Three: The idea of a Crafting Class that players are 'forced' to buy from is ridiculous. This would be no more true than it was in CoX...even less so. 'I just got a new Power and I want a Damage Enhancement for it. Hey...I have all the Inf I need for it! I'll go make it myself!' Sure, those that LIKE making Enhancements for badges and so forth can do so but there would be no pressure to go to them.
I called the new 'Salvage' Improvement Points and you would accumulate them as you would Inf or Xp. They would consume no inventory at all.
I like this idea...
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
familiarity = comfort. this comfort meant that it "worked" at least for some of the folks here. are they the majority of MMO players out there? nope...but it is a measuring stick by which one can look at when making decisions.
please cite reference that CoH was having problems keeping afloat (monetarily). thanks. :)
in regards to population...most MMO's have issues with maintaining a healthy population. given CoH is off the fantasy genre path, it was to be expected to be lower. in addition, CoH did a few things that broke from the "traditional" MMO mold and the player base as a whole, from what I could tell, liked it very much. that said, there is a reason why people want CoT to emulate CoH...because it worked for them and they enjoyed the game. as such..they want that comfort back.
I too am in favor of trying new and improved processes to enhance something old and beloved.
regarding gear...it's a major factor as players are back in the tradition mmo mold of the gear rat race...they have to grind out certain raids over an over to get the gear they want to optimize their character. I dunno about you...but I personally do not consider the gear rat race a positive thing, quite the opposite actually.
as far as evidence goes? none available as far as I know. other than CoH there are very few "gearless" mmo's out there...the reason being that superheroes typically don't need +5 belts of dexterity, Helms of invisibility, cloaks of displacement, +3 greatswords, etc etc etc. gear is a staple of fantasy...but not superheroes. it is an unfair benchmark to use as you truly are compairing apples and oranges (fantasy needs vs superhero needs).
finally, what's best for the game....that which works and is fun. that's it. CoH seemed to have found the golden ticket in that regard, imo, but obviously not everyone likes the game as much as I did/do. if CoT can replicate all the best things (best things obviously being subjective depending on the player...heh) that CoH did...I believe they will be around for a good long while.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
If I am going to be a De-buffing Regen Scrapper, you better believe Im gonna equip a 30% debuff IO stand alone that when added to my diminishing returns will only give me 2% more. Im gonna be the best possible at what ever it is a I'm doing. I will make my De-buffing bleed to give me more de-buffing power. Even if I can equip an IO for 25% more damage.
I need others to collect loot so i can buy what I want, because I want it now!
this would cater to the market pvp crowd and really screw people that didnt have the needed resources but couldnt get them without the needed enhancements. not particularly a game that I would play. Is it city of titans or city of market cartel?
Personally I liked the way CoH did it. From the TO's to the DO's, SO's, HO's and eventual IO's. I didn't mind having to continually purchase better enhancements as my toon leveled up. It didn't bother me spending a half hour or more running around my current zone trying to find my origin store to pick up what I needed. Enhancement decay didn't bother me either... I think it would just be weird if they didn't decay. What's the point of having something level up with you all the way from min to max with no need to replace it. That just seems like it would reduce the need for the players market. As far as only one crafting class. Ahem supergroup base crafting table useable by all classes and characters with plenty of storage racks and personal vault space for plenty of items picked up from enemy drops! In my personal opinion I think CoH got it right and would make minimal changes to the system if any at all.
By accident, design, or (most likely) a combination of both, CoH got the feel of crafting for a Superhero game pretty darn well. The ONLY thing I didn't like about their crafting was that it was "themed" instead of generic for personal theme interpretation--which was really no big deal. Just an annoyance.
And maybe most people really liked that the sets were "pre-themed". If so, I'd be happy to put up with a minor annoyance for the good of the many. But MWM has stated that they have a general design philosophy for CoT of trying to leave things open to interpretation as much as possible, so I'm not too worried about that.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Got to admit that I'm not really a fan of Red's suggestion, to me it doesn't really seem to be crafting. Going to a location and paying a certain value of X resource seems more like a store/vendor to me.
I thought that CoH did manage to create a crafting method that was involved enough so that those who were interested could spend their time working at it, but easy enough to grasp that those (like me) without the interest could grasp it quickly.
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[b]Praxidicae - Vindicator of Phoenix Rising[/b]
Also, I would have spent extra time crafting IO set(s) if it meant I could Add an Effect that i normally couldn't get unless i chose another power, if i had access to it... Like Sealth. ;)
If only i could Toggle these extra bonus Effects Off or On when i wanted to. :P
You could. It was called a different build. Or use unslotters to remove the offending IO from your build.
Not fast enough?
And considering the opposition that people have posted previously about being able to "quickly change your build according to the situation" or "swapping gear in and out", then I think that changes like that might not necessarily be well liked in CoT.
But then that swings around to how easy it is in other games to generally add and remove effects from your character by being able to swap equipment around, unlike CoX where changing what you had was a destructive replacement.
Sure, it might mean that you had to carry around 2 or 3 different things that were "right for that situation", but it could be done.
Ironically, it is one area where "limited action set" or "gear orientated" games have the edge. You are expected to swap in and out according to the situation. Sure there might well be a "best fit" for minimal changes, but tweaking and adjusting is part of the game as well.
And most of the other games also have additional effects[1] that could be applied via consumables (that may or may not stack with each other).
So there are examples out there of stuff like this being worked into games... at least in those games as well if you want to NOT have the proc effect, you jsut used a different weapon/item piece (generally speaking two items of same level and rarity, an item with a Proc would have lower stats/and or base damage)
[1] Chance of AOE attack/damage spreading, Health steal, additional stat boosts, temp power consumables etc. Not just the normal "COX style of inspiration".
Crafting is City of Heroes relied on "going to a location" (ie. a crafting table) and then "paying a certain value of X resources" in order to craft anything. Whether it was a Temp Power or an Enhancement didn't matter. You went to a crafting table (or summoned one to your location) and spent Salvage and INF (and sometimes a Recipe) to make whatever you were making.
Location
Salvage (ie. "permission slip")
Recipe (another form of "permission slip")
INF
The system I proposed in my original post simply dispenses with the Salvage and Recipes while retaining the other two factors. The Inventory based system of Salvage and Recipes gets replaced with Reserves and XP (and INF gets converted into IGC).
The actual act of DOING the Inventing is pretty much exactly the same ... gather resources then go use table to craft. I just dispensed with the Inventory juggling system of Salvage and Recipes so as to use a "universal currency" that every character will have access to ... Reserves and XP.
The difference is that my system requires Players to actually [i]play the game[/i] in order to be able to craft things, instead of simply engaging in Market PvP to hoard enough "permission slips" in Inventory to be able to craft anything and everything you (or anyone else) could ever want. The City of Heroes system required you to "juggle" what you either HAD or what you could GET. My system requires you to "juggle" what you actually DO in order to produce crafted materials.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I personally liked the way CoX handled the crafting and loot drops and hope that it makes a return. I really liked how crafting was applied to enhancements, Base items, temp powers, and the incarnate system. Especially the IO and incarnate system that let me create sets with different attributes or different themed incarnate powers to increase my character customization. I was one of those people that spent all that time and inf to get all the IO crafting badges and the portable crafting table accolade.
What I would like however for the dev team to find a solution to the crazy super inflated pricing in the auction house.
These are my bases:
CoH Base
https://imgur.com/a/HbskR
Citadel Forged With Fire
https://imgur.com/a/9okUuf1
Cash sinks.
Unfortunately, they would have to have some that are "unavoidable" unless you seriously go out of your way to avoid them, which might well cost you something else (ie time if you want to avoid taxi costs in most other MMO's so you travel yourself instead of using taxi points)
Of course, you could just implement a barter system (oh wait, Path of Exile did this, and people just chose a *relatively* common but useful drop as a currency stand in instead)
Not to derail this thread toward player economy (we've had a couple of lengthy threads on that topic), but the main reason there was rampant inflation in the old game was due to several reasons.
The game was not designed with a player economy in mind from the start. As such the rate of currency (inf in this case) was not designed to account for trading items for currency. There weren't any sufficient sinks to drain currency out of the economy. Which means there weren't sufficient reasons to spend currency. The chief sinks were in game shops, negated by availability of the same items as drops. Crafting which was vasty outpaced by currency gains. And tailor costs, which was negated by tailor tokens. All three sinks were nearly irrelevant to veteran players who, by and large, were drivers of practically automatic inflation once the player market opened.
Inflation is practically inevitable. What we can do is regularly combat it inherently in the system design. This means setting up the appropriate rate over time earned with an economy in mind. Having an economy in place from the start. Placing, updating, and adding sufficient sinks in the game.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
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[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
There's also the "Level Cap Sugar Daddy" phenomenon to deal with as well.
I remember playing as a Level 2 in Galaxy City and fighting purse snatchers. Rewards were in the low double digits in terms of INF earned.
Then one time I Exemplared one of my Level 50 characters down to Level 1 to help a Newbie get oriented and learn how to play the game (they were street sweeping for some reason and wanted help). So I help them bust a purse snatcher and ... I get like over 3000 INF for it. I'm sure my lowbie Teammate earned low double digits of INF for that one purse snatcher bust.
When the difference in earnings between Level 2 and Level 50 is greater than 100x [i]even when Exemplared[/i] you're going to have inflation issues. In terms of "Bang For Buck" the path of least resistance swings hard over in favor of letting the Level Cap Character "earn" everything and spare yourself the effort of doing the same thing on your lowbie alts.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Fair point, though that is covered under the umbrella of setting up earn rates over time with a player economy in mind in the first place ; ).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I always liked that CoX was inclusive and not hyper competitive. Yes, at the end my perma-dom-without-hasten fire/fire/fire dom cost an absolute fortune in game, but the game had been around for many years by that point. The main thing I liked about CoX was that you could have an okayish build, get an okayish team together, and have a lot of fun.
So I guess I would like things to err on the side of readily available loot and accessible missions/task forces.
As long as those are satisfied, I am not too picky about the actual mechanics of how loot drops and/or needs to be crafted.
I'm actually in favor of the highest tier loot/gear not being tradable or purchasable and being bound and unique to your character and only dropped in unique situations
Mathematically it won't really be THAT superior but it keeps the playtime per character up which for me makes a world immersive (seeing familiar faces)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I understand where Redlynne is coming from. She wants a simple crafting system that is easy to understand and usable by everyone. That's fair. I think the idea of using reserves for crafting is an interesting one. There are some things I simply disagree with. One item that has flown under the radar is the level agnostic enhancements. Maybe this idea wasn't completely explained and that is why I'm struggling with it. But if you can buy max level enhancements at level 1, why buy anything else, ever. This would cripple the demand and drop prices to next to nothing. Which leads me to the why bother having them at all? If there is no reason or motivation to "earn" these items, why bother wasting time creating such a system?
I understand the argument for single unified currency that is the basic premise of crafting. Using that math you could argue that creating a crafting currency is just a sub currency of endurance. You use endurance to fire powers that deal damage or heal a target and you build momentum which is then converted into reserves. So why bother having the middleman of reserves why not use endurance directly, that's simpler.
Everything in MMO's or any RPG really boils down to the usage of the endurance equivalent. If you argue that we should use a simpler currency for any purpose that isn't endurance your argument is somewhat self defeating. The reason RPG's don't use endurance for everything is that it simply isn't interesting. It doesn't drive the game in any particular direction. People aren't going to work towards getting endurance to buy more endurance. But they will get a lot of loot to buy an enhancement that will let them hit a little harder and get some more loot to get another enhancement that will let them take a bigger hit and get more loot to propagate an endless cycle of virtual earning and spending.
At the end of the day I get your want for a simple crafting system, I really do. In GW2 every time I run into a ridiculous requirement for some new piece of armor or weapon to craft I curse that system's complexity. I want COT's system to be engaging to get people to demand rare items but not so difficult so as to make a player feel as though they will never earn enough to get the very best items in the game. It needs to give us something to work for.
I'm sympathetic to the root cause of simplifying the crafting system and bringing it to the masses. I don't think that gutting it of all the core concepts that you normally see in MMO crafting is a good idea. It's not going to encourage players to use it and it's not going to keep players that do use it engaged. If it's not going to do those things then we ought to just skip it entirely.
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It's that whole KISS principle thing.
Because there are two ways to handle things. Either you build a system where "churn" is inevitable and stuff needs to be "maintained" in order to "keep" it, or you go with an "eternal" solution where once you've got it it's good forever.
TO/DO/SO used the "churn" method. They expired.
IO used the "eternal" method. They were good forever.
The net result of the TO/DO/SO system, in which the Enhancements expired, was that EVERYONE was Resource Poor on their first character. That was because every 5 Levels you had to buy all your Enhancements all over again to stop them all from "breaking" every 5 Levels. This got exponentially more expensive the higher you got ... until hitting the Level Cap, at which point nothing ever "expired" ever again and the resource drain of replacing everything every 5 Levels disappeared. This then "overturned the churn" and made your Level Cap characters all become "sugar daddies" for twinking any and every alt you made.
Net results ... newbs are POOR and STAY POOR until they too can make it to the Level Cap and never worry about currency problems ever again.
My point being that the "churn" system is only functional so long as there is character advancement. As soon as character advancement stops, the need for "churn" stops. Indeed, the only way to keep any kind of "churn" going is to impose something akin to a Death Penalty that enforces "churn" via destruction of what would otherwise be "eternal" Enhancements. Yeah, guess how well THAT idea has been received, even if the penalty is -1 per Defeat.
If Supply is going to be more or less "constant" then Demand is ALSO going to have to be more or less "constant" as well. And the only way to keep Demand in any way "constant" is to have either some form of Item Degradation (which TO/DO/SO did) or have some other form of sink in which the crafting results get used for something besides just slotting up your character's Powers. Making the Enhancements be Level agnostic just simplifies and streamlines both the market and the database, so we don't need to track 50+ different copies of the same Item like we saw in City of Heroes.
Simplify.
Simplify.
Simplify.
All I was really addressing here was the [b]Production[/b] side of things. Deciding on the [b]Consumption[/b] side of the equation is a different question and answer. Yes, they need to balance out (roughly) but you've got to start somewhere (chicken 'n' egg problem, and all that). Once you settle on how "stuff gets MADE" in the game, then you can set about deciding how "stuff gets USED/consumed" in the game, and begin the requisite balancing act to move towards a functional in-game economy.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I don't know that this is a chicken or egg type problem. (eggs were first) Since 'we' are creating the system we can weigh both production and consumption at the same time. We can and should analyze if from multiple perspectives to make sure it's A) fun, B) engaging C) serves other game systems in a productive way.
I agree that between TO DO and SO's there was a lot of extra "stuff" in the mix that wasn't required. They probably could have stuck with a simpler approach to enhancement classification, because the variation was dependent on the lore more than anything else. It really wouldn't have made much of a difference to the lore if TOs and DO's ceased to exist. Alternatively, they could have invested in a different vendor UI that sorted out the enhancements to make finding items a little easier. I'm sure the database size was not much of a constraint until they released the auction house. Even then database entries are pretty light I total storage. The way the AH worked also limited the need to keep large amounts of data in memory since you only needed to know the last 5 sale prices the highest 10 non-fulfilled bids and the lowest 10 non-fulfilled sales. (the maximum number any single character could un/load from inventory at once) These is more true for COH than some other games, like GW2, where the prices for every item can be seen and there are potentially millions of a single item for sale. Bit of a tangent there.
I agree that simplification is a noble goal, but like I said in my last post if you take it to extremes why bother having the system at all? Progression and equipment are usually features of games where a little bit of complexity can pay for itself. In some games these systems are incredibly deep with pieces of equipment having dozens of different types with varied stats and aspects and slots that can deeply change the way a character plays out. Since most of the equipment in COT is going to be cosmetic then it stands to reason that there will be a little complexity involved with enhancements.
Frankly I was totally fine with the way COH did enhancements. Originally and then when they saw players ask for crafting and endgame they added inventions to help address both. I think they did a good job. They fulfilled the task and added some depth that was missing at max level. I don't think having everyone be poor at the beginning is a terrible thing. It might even encourage charity. High level players can look at the starving newbs and say "I remember being poor when I was new. It gets better. Take this bit of inf and buy some SOs." That lack of funds can also be used as a pair of floaties. It prevents newbs from diving too deep too early and overwhelming them with the vast array of slotting options since they can only afford the basic stuff.
I understand your points and you make some good arguments. But I agree to disagree.
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I certainly agree with this A through C and I'd like to suggest D) fault tolerant as another goal for the system. I'm not sure what that would look like, but if there were features of the system that added resilience, or at least a way to find/track/correct problems, this would make it healthier.
If, for instance, there's a sudden flood of IQ-36XS Modulators on the market and the system could Flag that spike, it might be someone selling off a stash, but it could also indicate a new exploit to investigate.
Addressing the original idea, and I'm not sure if I did before, I can see how 'loot' might only be found at the end of the... episode, when one has a chance to turn from 'arresting' trouble and actually look into the... mystery-box. Presumably, in the process of the... adventure (chaos and panic) one would not have Time to rifle the... subjects pockets for loose widgets. Even if one Were to do such things in some way, it would be intensely embarrassing to be Seen doing it, so that accumulation ought, really, to be a background process. In a way, I might almost suggest that all such 'non-volatile' rewards not show up until one is back at the secret lair, going over the after-action reports. Anything that might be immediately useful should certainly drop straight into whatever limited 'live' inventory a character has on their person, but the rest really ought to be delivered by UPEx to the base for sorting/processing/storage/enjoyment.
Be Well!
Fireheart
The most frustrating thing in NW is dropping such an item on a character for whom it's useless for the third time, when you can't get it for the life of you on the character that needs it. Bind to account not character.
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team and Forum Moderator[/color]
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I think you should clarify some of the assumptions you are presenting this system under, such as: Are you assuming a level-based Enhancement Expiration? In general, I agree that "vendor bait" loot system is to be avoided, unless there is going to be a relatively robust market system, which I somewhat doubt because that's honestly distracting to the goal of this particular game.
Using XP for non-permanent gear is not, IMO, going to sit well with most people. XP is for levels and other [i]permanent[/i] benefits. Gear is [i]usually[/i] transitory to some degree or another.
So we're left with "crafting" with Reserves and IGC. Here's the thing about that, if you can make anything you want/need with a liquid asset, how is that any different than just having a shop? Thematically, there may be differences, but mechanically, it just becomes another version of a shop. This is not to say that I'm against having a single-point shop for all my needs, and honestly I think the importance of crafting in an MMO is overrated, but this is not crafting, just reflavored vendor.
Crafting, within this sort of context, requires collected materials that can be consolidated by an individual to create an item. There are several aspects of this definition that give crafting particular characteristics, but the big one is that the materials (I'm including "blueprints" or whatever here) have a somewhat variable scarcity and demand, which means that some item crafting becomes more, less, or not profitable based on the direct and indirect actions of the player community. This in turn creates a real, if limited, supply and demand environment. Without this sense of market, then it's either not crafting, or it loses the aspects that make it an interesting addition to the game.
That is not to say this is an entirely bad idea. There are aspects that I think have some real strength to them, primarily having all Enhancement type items crafted by players. This would work best IMO if all drops are "salvage" type materials rather than ready-to-use items, and most of the real core recipes are permanently known to a player, and they can buy/find temporary recipes with IGC and/or Permanently Learned recipes with Stars. I would note at this point that we are very close to how EvE Online operates in many aspects (though they embrace the aspect of 99% of loot will be sold, even if usually through to the player market rather than NPC vendors). If we are going down that route, we should examine what EvE did well and poorly.
Specifically with regards to schematics: Eve utilized a system where there exists both Originals (BPO) and Copies (BPC) of schematic items. BPOs were persistant and could be used indefinitely by whoever owned them. BPCs had a fixed number of "licenced" uses before they were consumed. Additionally, you could use BPOs to *craft* BPCs. This was not a free process, and required time and items, but if the listed item was popular, it would probably be more worth it for the BPO owner to sell BPCs rather than actually create the item.
The advantage of this system is that it created drops of value, [i]even if the item it created is not something you use[/i].
The disadvantage of this system is that it created, largely arbitrarily, a powerful concentration of wealth based on RNG drops.
In CoT, there will likely be the issue of saturation if recipes exist in BPO status, as the game will not have the predatory mechanics that are so associated with EvE, thus we are either stuck with BPCs, or we limit BPOs to being bought with Stars in order to limit prevalence without arbitrary distribution. Note: If BPOs are purchasable with Stars, I would assume some availability of BPCs through a vendor and/or drops.
And I realize I've gone 90 degrees out from the original proposal. Sorry for tangent.
I'm 180 out on this point partially because of the point Minotaur made above: What if that is useless to you?
Additionally, I think that trade builds communities, while exclusive items, distributed by RNGesus, creates resentment and isolation.
Of course, if everything will be crafted, then a high-end, Bound item can exist without being useless Vendor Bait for the owner or preventing trade (just trade the materials instead of the item).
I get the impression that you're more expressing a fondness for the "classic" high-end drop system where you complete a Raid and get dank gear, though, which is pretty exclusive from a "everything is crafted" mechanic.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
I kind of like where Redlynne is going with this. Let me take it one step further. All the people you save (if you are good) or bad guys you subjugate/impress (if you are evil) will want to pay you back somehow. This has always been in the game, conceptually, as influence that can be leveraged as a currency. But since we have the luxury of starting over with a new system, we can take that concept to the next level. What if those people actually volunteered to provide services for us, or discounts or what have you. What if like in the TV show ARROW, we save a brilliant inventor who then will make custom cool stuff for us. That would be a great story arc we would want to complete in order to unlock that support character. And there could be all kinds of support characters we could unlock who would all be able to supplement our ability to "craft" stuff, like potions, mojo and fetishes, armor, weapons, and enhancements, etc. And then we could use Radiac's idea (from another thread) of an XP-based progress bar until item completion (assuming all the special ingredients are available.) We could call it crafting even thought we wouldn't actually be the ones crafting it....
... unless...
..unless we wanted to play a crafting-based character instead of an action based character. Forge of the X-men comes to mind. I'm going to leave that idea out there for now since I haven't thought that through yet. FFXIV does a fine implementation of dividing crafting classes from gathering classes from adventuring classes.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I personally like and would like to keep some amount of randomized item drops in the game. It was a sweet moment in the game when something awesome dropped at random. It didn't happen often, which frustrated people, but when it did, it was good. And for the randomness to mean anything, you kind of have to have a lot of not-very-good outcomes (like buying a lottery ticket and winning nothing, or like $2 or another ticket really often, etc) so that the few times when you do get something really good, it feels like winning the jackpot.
I would have three tiers of gear you could equip.
Top Tier would be very rares that you can only get at random as drops, need to be crafted at great cost after that, and either last forever or for a very long time.
Middle Tier would be rares that drop more frequently, need to be crafted, and will eventually expire and need to be replaced. This would not be level based, but based on use. For every time you activate a power, you use up all of the gear in that power a little bit, until eventually those gear pieces will expire and stop giving you any benefits, needing to be replaced. Different ones would have different expiration rates, some would be longer lasting, others would be more short-lived, but perhaps more powerful while they last, etc.
Bottom Tier would be stuff that isn't terribly powerful, doesn't drop at random, and can be easily and inexpensively crafted using only the most commonly available salvage components. This too would have an expiration factor.
I would also try to put in a way that you could gamble IGC on getting gear in some way, if the game still needed a sink.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I took the original post to also include the idea that there would be only character crafted items available. If they have game impact then you will end up with miserable experience of Horizon. As its economy was only player based, we had a situation where hardcore players out-leveled all the gear and then the hardcore crafters gouged everyone as a few of them per sever had the time to level. Most of those were basically supported by a guild that was smart enough to realize they should pull the resources for the designated crafter to must power level. The players that really got screwed were the middle level ones that never had gear and had to pay ridiculous prices for stuff as inflation tends to be more aggressive than the discounting system. A good crafting system can actually help keep a game solvent long after you have run every mission 3 times.
I think this idea is bloody brilliant in theory, now in practice that is another thing you would have to see.
I think by also driving people to becoming crafters or some players to focus on being crafters also can draw the community together, for example when I played SWTOR the issue we fell into at launch most if not all the major crafters on my server that served raid guilds, who were at the time obviously the only ones able to produce the best gear wouldn't trade outside their guilds, likewise I was the only armoursmith in Serenity in SWTOR at least our only listed maxed out one, so i got dibs on all recipes by driving everyone to needing to involve themselves with crafting or with a crafter, it makes an interesting market as long as guilds don't hog all the crafters.
Now I would suggest that a Crafter builds XP from crafting so they can level up their character and still have a functional line role in late game content.
EDIT: 2 - In addition I would suggest that any enhancements aren't level rated this should hopefully reduce the ability for them to not be usable by everyone, materials I would suggest all remain the same for the most part or you could use the materials that you get from the hardest zone to make the low rank stuff or you still get those mats even in the hardest zone.