In a lot of the discussions here, there's the perception that purples cost "too much" on the AH because speculators artificially drove up the price of purples, thus hurting the game. At the same time, there doesn't seem to be much discussion about what a "proper" price on purples ought to have been. I personally thought that purples were not "overpriced" on the AH . . . at the same time, for many of my characters, I did not consider purples to be good value for INF.
To start, let's note that purples were available from vendors. You could buy them for 20 Alignment Merits per recipe. That was the developer-set, "appropriate" price. Using 20 AMs as the "proper" price for a purple recipe, if players were actively seeking AMs, they could earn about 2-4 a week per character (1-3 morality missions and a SSA). To get 5 purples (the 6th slot bonus typically wasn't great) it would take you 6 months to a year to acquire a set at that rate. Of course, that's just running 5 tips missions per day and 1 SSA per week, it isn't superhardcore grinding. And you could do that on multiple characters and save up for one set if you wanted. So that was the progression rate.
Considering that you could get a Performance Shifter +End proc for 1 AM or a LOTG +7.5% recharge for 2 AM, you would be better off buying Performance Shifter procs or LOTG +recharges, selling them on the AH, and using the INF to purchase purples on the AH at market rates. In other words, compared to the vendor prices for purples, AH prices were *not* overpriced.
Looking at the issue in more detail, for 100 Alignment Merits you could get a set of 5 purples from a vendor. For the same 100 merits, you could get the Performance Shifter +end proc, 5 LOTG +recharge, the Numina and Miracle uniques, and 8 rare sets (5 slotted) with 5 AMs left over. Of course, if you look at the market prices for the average rare recipe vs the market prices for the most valuable rare recipes (ie LOTG recharge and Performance Shifter procs) you could get far more than 8 rare 5 piece sets. Using the AH, you could likely completely IO-out a character with a relatively high-end, non-purple build for the same number of AMs it would take to acquire one purple set.
Of course, purple sets were "better" than rare sets. For some sets, you could see the difference in great detail. In terms of set bonuses, using Ragnarok over Positron's Blast would get you +1.5% more recovery, + 6% more accuracy, and +5% more recharge. In some builds that focused on +recharge, that could be significant. Additionally, Ragnarok would give you better enhancement values in terms of absolute value and (considering Positron's Blast lacked recharge) in terms of aspects enhanced. Ragnarok's proc had a greater value. And the set bonuses were not subject to exemplaring level rules, you'd always have those bonuses. If there was no tradeoff, if you could simply pick one set, you'd typically pick Ragnarok over Positron's Blast. But, as noted above, the tradeoff is that if you were starting from zero, you would get *way* more bang for your buck putting your resources into non-purple IOs.
If you exemplared a lot, purples were *fantastic*. The enhancement values were well beyond ED values at level 50, but when you exempted down your enhancement values were degraded, so having more than the standard value helped. If you had procs in low-damage powers (ie the ones you have access to at lower levels), purple level procs could really shine. And the set bonuses were great when exemplared. Having +50% recharge, +20% recovery, and +75% accuracy at level 1 was amazing. But unless you exemplared a lot, that really wouldn't play into your valuations for purples.
To me, comparing a well-thought out level 50 rare/uncommon build with no purples to a similar build with purples, the purpled-out build would be slightly more effective but not necessarily worth the cost. You'd have something like 8% more recovery, 30% more accuracy, and 25% more recharge. You'd have slightly better enhancement values on the purpled out powers, and your procs might be better. You'd be better when exemplared. And for those gains, you could have had 4 other characters with expensive non-purple builds. There were very few (if any) encounters in COX where a purpled build would have dramatically outperformed a high-end, non purpled build. Purples were for the most part a luxury for players who really, really liked a particular character. They weren't needed for effective builds or necessary to participate in high-end content.
The flip side is that, if you got a lucky purple drop, the prices of purples on the AH meant that you essentially never had to worry about INF again. Do I think purples were "overpriced"? In many cases, yes. But not because speculators pumped the price too high, but because I thought buyers could have made better choices as to how they spent their INF. Clearly the AH prices were "low" as compared to the prices set by the developers at the vendors. Speculators could set the price for something that no one really "needed" as high as they liked, but unless someone felt like purchasing it at that price, they'd have no luck.
I did not see the high price of purples on the AH as a problem, since no one was forced to buy purples and the cost of purples from vendors was even higher than on the AH. Ultimately they were status symbols for players who already had more influence than they knew what to do with, and the effect on gameplay was minimal. If the "ultimate" gear in COT is similarly expensive, but similarly underpowered as compared to price, I don't see that as a problem.
Great post, Young Tutor. I played the AH with the mindset that it was essentially an INF based PvP setting. Made a right killing doing it too. At the conclusion of CoX I was sitting on 67 Billion Influence liquid with an equal amount invested in several alts and some more tied up in ventures that would never see fruition. Not that any of this is important but I did want to speak on the cost of Purples in CoX. As you mentioned in your post, some people found the cost of Purple IOs on the AH to be cost prohibitive and wouldn't or couldn't buy any. But many, many players DID think they were worth the influnce and bought them in such great numbers that speculators like myself kept selling them for a hefty profit until the very end. This is all just a long way of saying that the Purple IOs were only worth what the good citizens of Paragon were willing to pay for them. The speculators, rather than driving the price UP any given item, actually helped bring stability to the AH in the medium and long run. Even with my billions in reserve, I would've been hard pressed to monopolize the Purple IO/Recipe Market (not that I didn't try once or twice).
The Devs were wise to allow unlimited Purple drops. If memory serves correctly, the Purple Recipes drops were in the neighborhood of 1 in 1000? Any level 50 player with a whisper of farming skill and a few AoE powers could run a creep map and get bewteen 1 and 3 Purples. This made it all but impossible for any one player to corner the market. There were rumors of NetherGoat and some others like PinkBunny banding together in a cartel to manipulate the Market but it was only rumor. Even if they did, I can recall any true Market shortages for 97% of all the items listed there (Alchemical Silvers would often be hard to come by Villian side as I recall).
As with any Market, it's smart to buy low/sell high and be just a little patient. I can't stress this enough. When the AH went live, I was worth about 12 million influence. That was about enough to fill out one level 50 toon with level 50+ SO enhancements. If CoT adopts a similar approach to its high-end gear, I suspect it'll be good for the AH and by extension, the game itself. Here's to new begginings. Cheers.
When Hell is full, the Dead shall walk the Earth.
I used to think that the AH should have had all kinds of controls to keep prices down. Then I realized that the only reason that prices climbed as high as they did was because people paid what was asked. Granted, you will never get a significant portion of 100k players to agree on anything, but if players REALLY wanted to bring prices down they could simply stop buying. Go out, play the game, collect the drops and build what you could. When the guy(s) hording Alc Silver don't see them moving at 50k per they'll drop the prices.
After the two sides merged (and boy but I was a BIG supporter of that!) Inf became a non-issue all the way around. I enjoyed the Market even on characters I didn't play much because with one lucky drop that character was set all the way to SOs. I remember, with great frustration, the pre-Market days when new players like myself would horde every Inf in order to upgrade Enhancements as they went red. Remember the early CCs where a big prize was a million Inf? Towards the end the CONSOLATION prize was a million and the top prize anywhere from 10-50 million.
Prices rise in the Market because someone is willing to pay it. In some cases this was because vets had a year's worth of Inf earned and nothing to spend it on. In some cases players bought Inf from RMTs and then dropped it all on the Market. I Crafted only to outfit my own character, not to horde Inf. Personally I felt that the drop and crafting systems could have used some changes but that's all done for now.
My goal in CoT is to have a game that casual players will want to play. I want newer players to be able to explore crafting and not get sticker-shocked at the AH because something listed as Common only ever has 3 for sale and costs a day's worth of Inf for a 2% benefit. I also don't want to have to pay more than a day's casual time for any sort of costume piece. Many made fortunes selling Wings recipes. No offense but I cheered when drop rates went up on something that helped me have more fun. I have NO problem with a piece of elite gear being expensive and hard to come by. I'd rather NOT have it gated behind a specific mission or accomplishment though.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
50k Alchemical Silvers.... More like 400k :P
When Hell is full, the Dead shall walk the Earth.
See, I was the guy (you know...THAT guy) who would see the prices spiral out of control like that and shrug. I'd go and hit the AE for an hour and earn Tickets. Then I'd convert those into Alc Silvers and then walk across the street to the Market and sell them. Prices at 400k? Ok...Mine are 350k. And hour or two later the price is around 350k so I'd sell mine at 300k.
Many considered (and referred to) the Market to be financial PvP. Ok, you want to throw your Billions of Inf around and bully the little guys? All right...let's play. My friends and I will all hit the AE for tickets for a few hours and convert them ALL to Commons. Then we'll drop them on the Market to undercut the elevated price. You have to drop your prices or be stuck with piles of inventory that won't move. When the prices come down, we do it again. As long as there is an alternate source for the item we never paid unreasonable prices on the Market. That's how many made their fortunes, charging a lot for something they controlled a lot of.
I have nothing against Crafters. I used to buy Purple recipes, craft them and then flip them. I saw nothing wrong with that because the profit was my reward for not being lazy. But when you and your rich friends get together and corner the Market on something that is sure to be in demand this upcoming Double XP Weekend and then raise the price through the roof, that bothers me. That is the main reason why I think that the Crafting System should be built in such a way that higher-level characters NEVER need items that are only dropped by lower level enemies.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Which ironically is why I tend to enjoy crafting systems from other MMOs compared to CoX stuff, where the *specific* loot was more according to level ie for low level leather armour, the leather was from low level mobs.
So if I wanted to craft something for a friend, I could do it myself, or just get them to hand me the materials (if they had them), so that I wouldnt necessarily have to go into the low level zones and gather it myself, and potentially ruin someone elses fun.
About the only time I did do that (the go into lower level zones) was when I was improving a craft that required mats from that zone. In WoW for example, I would tend to start my professions when I hit level cap, and buy the materials I needed off the AH. This meant that the money would go to the low level players (in theory at least) and help them out... and I would spend as much time *out* of the zones as possible.
One idea I had for crafting based, naturally, on CoH's system:
Premise: Rather than having a recipe demand [code]1x Ancient Artifact, 1x Luck Charm, 1x Clockwork Winder[/code], the recipe would require [code]2x Common Arcane Salvage, 1x Common Technology Salvage[/code] from the character's level range. This would remove the problem of having to store (or to go hunt for) lower level crafting materials "just in case" (especially for crafting items such as costume pieces).
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This would have worked better for CoX's system. Most other MMO's tend to do it so that the salvage is from loot that the recipe is for... although there might be some "common" stuff that can generally be bought from NPC vendors as they are used across the board (or at the *very* start of the crafting process).
CoX's though... there was *strictly* speaking no "level" for the loot... just that one side (or the other) could have a gap in terms of what you were sometimes fighting and what would drop as a result. so you could end up generally "short" on fighting the right mobs for what you wanted.
It also didn't help CoX in that mobs too far below your level didn't drop anything either... so even if you *really* did want to street sweep mobs for Magical loot in Dark Astoria (pre revamp).... if you were too high level, you were wasting your time.
Bear in mind the purple market changed significantly when converters came in and it didn't matter which purple you owned, with a bit of patience, you could make it into a more desirable one.
You could also do something along the lines of how base salvage worked to eliminate the "must have alchemical silver" issue, with the enhancements built from intermediate components for which there are multiple recipes.
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I joined the game when Base Salvage was still dropping but I wasn't part of a SG for ages so never got to use them.
Another way of dealing with the 'Alc Silver' issue was to have it so not so many recipes needed them and also make them drop as per its rank. Alc Silver was a common-white salvage but after a normal Cpl of days of faming you'd have 10 Clockwork Winders (common-white), multiples of other whites, 4 Gold (uncommon-yellow) and you'd be lucky to have any Alc Silver.
It never made sense to me that a common-white salvage was used by so many recipes that everyone used (EndRed + EndMod to name some) but was hard to find.
The Phoenix Rising Initiative Rules Lawyer
I have long been an advocate of segregating the Inventions by tiers. If a common salvage like Alc Silver drops from level 10-20 enemies that's fine. Alc Silver should ONLY be needed to craft stuff in the 10-20 range. That way the lvl 50s with tons of wealth won't have a reason to buy them for crafting purposes. Of course, people can still buy them to flip but I don't see a way to stop that.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
Strangely enough, this is what a lot of other MMO's do with their crafting systems, of "level 10 gear" requiring stuff that drops from mobs in that range, and the level 50 equivalent stuff requiring stuff that drops from mobs around the level 50 range...
CoX had the problem though in that this system wouldn't work, because if the mobs were too low level the mobs didn't drop anything...
Now saying that, CoX had so many different types of enhancements that this method didn't work, because that could potentially lead up to a exponential increase in the number of "recipes" that had different component requirements, even if it was a recipe that had a level range of 35-50.
Now, what could be done, using something similar to what was suggested earlier is the "2 common Magical, 1 Magical Uncommon" from *appropriate range*... so the level 35 version would use drops from level 35 mobs, the level 50 one would use level 50 drops.
You could even add in more unique drops that only drop from those high level mobs.
Personally I am in the mind that mobs should give drops no matter the level difference (so even street sweeping for drops is possible)... and making more variety in recipe components needed
Actually it did work in CoH. Many times I went to Ouro, exemped myself down to an appropriate level and went into old DA to kill zombies for mid level magic salvage.
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So...the problem was not that level-based crafting tiers limited what the various levels needed but that some enemies (normally gray) didn't drop anything.
So fix THAT problem instead. The tech exists to make every mob con at whatever level the game wants. Rikti enemies all conned the same no matter what your level. So why do we EVER have to outlevel a mob?
One of the main reasons to street-sweep below our level was for TFs. So...fix the TFs so we don't have to DO that and the problem is solved.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I believe that having high level recipes require low level salvage was done on purpose. The goal was to provide something that high level characters, who have tons of influence and a high earning potential, want from low level characters so low level characters can sell things to them to spread out the wealth. It worked too; if you just stuck all your drops on the auction house for 1 inf as a new character, you made way, way more inf from high level/rich characters buying your drops than you did from running your missions. That made it trivially easy to buy normal DO and SO enhancements, where without that downflow of inf from high level to low, a lot of characters wouldn't end up with enough to even buy a full set of standard enhancements.
Yep, there *was* a way around it, but when you were in Oroborus, you were not "level 50", because the game limited you to the level that you would have been (with a slight bonus).
Could a level 50, without using Oroborus do it? Could a character of ANY level actually do this without having to resort to the work around of using Oroborus?
You see, I find *this* interesting, because although there was a work around in place, people *still* complained (even on these forums) that Alchemical Silver was too expensive....
Which is interesting because there were work arounds to avoid this problem...
So is it a "dumb player" or a "crap work around" situation?
Personally speaking, I have no problem going street sweeping killing mobs to gets drops... it gave me something to do in the outside world, without necessarily having to be in an instance...
It was *any* grey enemy never dropped anything... compounded by the fact that if your salvage was full, you wouldn't actually even *get* the option for salvage to drop. The 2nd part is another matter though.
I never mentioned TF's, so I am not sure why you decided to bring this part up...
*shrugs*
What I was thinking of was more along the lines of what other MMOs do... if you defeat a mob (and it has a loot table attached to it), you stand a chance of getting salvage from this. This would work if it was *several* levels above you, or several levels below you... you stand a chance of getting something off it.
Experience gain would obviously diminish towards zero if you were too high above the mob level, and if the mob was too high level, there would be a cap as to how much you could get from it.... (ie possibly have an XP gain equivelent to at most +5 to your level).
The situation with sidekicking is interesting though... would you get loot based on your *actual* level or loot based on the *mobs* level?
Personally, I would go for the latter, because that means that mob defeat = loot according to mob.... and that it doesn't require any special checks for what happen with exemping/sidekicking.
For the mobs that would con the same to *all* players (ie GM's), I believe that those would have special loot attached to them, that could form the basis for crafting "extra special" stuff...
Please note: THere is a difference between "not outlevelling mobs" and "All mobs give loot no matter the level of the character"... I am going for the 2nd option. "Not outlevelling mobs" suggests that you get money/XP/loot relevant to your level, no matter what level you are.
Agreed.
If I am carrying a jamming device, it doesn't matter if I get knocked out by my next door neighbor or Superman...I drop the jamming device either way. Whether Superman can use that device for crafting something he wants is another matter (probably not). My next door neighbor (a ordinary human) gains experience and influence / acclaim for winning against me, an equal. Superman gains no experience or acclaim, since he learned nothing new, I had no power for him to absorb, and no one is impressed with the fight.
Outleveling mobs serves a very valuable purpose - demonstrating that we grow significantly more powerful. If I level up to max, it would be very disappointing and immersion-breaking to face levelless ordinary thugs - they'd be dangerous, when logically they shouldn't give me a scratch. Keeping them at level 1-15 maintains that gameplay experience.
Bit of both but mainly the former, but there were other exemping team based options (just do a lower level TF against foes that drop magic stuff, MF/Hess/citadel/Katie for example after they changed council to drop both types) or AE (tickets->random mid level magic common salvage). You could also simply use another of your characters that was the right level to get them, wasn't like I was short of level 30s at any given time.
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I thought the AH was great, I played the market very well. The only thing I didn't like was the inf cap. Can we not have one? Two billion seems like a lot but at one point that was just 4 or 5 purples and I occasionally lost a few million from bad quick math (Asian fail) with all the IOs and impossible bids I used empty auction slots for. At least maybe toss it into "escrow" then you can access after some time, anything is better than just having it vanish because I absentmindedly hit "Get All Influence".
Back on topic... if an item is being inflated on the market like Alc Silver that, as Minotaur mentioned, had many ways that anyone in or above its level range could get without a significant time sink, then there is really is no problem. CoX was about options to me, you almost always had more than a couple.
Gray conning mobs dropping loot seems ok to me, if maybe their chance to is slightly diminished (hey, it can't always be that easy).. possibly because you are just so much more powerful than them that you wind up destroying some of their things in the process of killi-er, arresting them. I mean if my lvl 50 is swinging a giant hammer at a now practically defenseless lvl 10 minion... I think it's likely I broke the glass vial of mutant DNA in his pocket.
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I'd definitely support a reduced drop rate of salvage when fighting grays. And good points regarding the other ways CoH allowed for salvage; I used AE tickets in a few cases where a common surged over 200K, it was a nice way to get a few of what I needed and toss the remainder up for sale.
I've found myself content with the Marvel Heroes (Diablo) approach.
You will get used to gaining purples as drops from boss battles, but even though they are usable to your character they're not usually what you're looking for (the specific unique you need to fit your build). I've found that as a casual player (no more than 5 hours in a week) I can wait about a month to get the thing I really want. And the ones I don't want I can always leave for a friend.
But their loot is character based so it takes playing that character to get what you really want. I think it should take about 6 months after endgame to get the actual final gear you're looking for by playing and less if you spend $ to buy it.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Considering that people had all kinds of work-arounds for the Inf limit, having one does seem a bit silly. Maybe just a limit based on the number of digits? 9,999,999,999 maybe?
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
It technically was based on the number of digits. In beta, if someone accumulated more than 2^31 Inf, they wrapped around to -2^31 and got stuck there.
For me, the AH was a facet of the game that would provide me with something to do while I waited for certain events to begin.
If only I could have been as successful in the stock market, I could have bought NCSoft and given us our game back and still have enough loot to keep me in pizza and pop-tarts.
How much was a purple worth? For me, they were without value. Worthless, in terms of dollars and inf. But not without value in terms of time. At least once a week, I'd farm for purples. Sometimes, I'd get a couple. Sometimes, I'd get nada. But, I always filled up with SO's that I would sell to vendors and salvage that I could use to craft and put for sell at the AH.
In the latter stages of the game, with those ...hmm, what's the term..those packs that showed the cards flipping like a game of video poker...whatever they were, they certainly made inf making very easy, if you were inclined to do so. If you were VIP, some of those packs were free, if I recall correctly.
The crazy thing was the PvP IOs. The willingness of some folks to spend a billion inf, or even 2 billion inf really surprised me.
The Hero/Villain merit system was certainly frustrating for me when I'd forget when the last time I'd run the arc for a merit. Either way, with all the characters I had, it was pretty easy to run the first arc for a hero merit on several characters in an hour. I can't recall my best time, but I'm pretty sure I was getting the merit within 10 minutes, maybe 12.
Heading to ouros for reward merits and converting to hero merits and then finally converting hero merits for any PvP IO and then using a converter to hopefully change them to a set that yielded a higher inf average, well that's a lot of work/fun, depending on your perspective. Either way it took time. Given that I'm working full time now (wasn't then) and I try to get to the gym several times a week, I'm pretty sure I would have to be one of those "casual" players. Logging in on weekends for a couple-three hours, and being lucky to see the game at all during the week - that's going to be very strange for me. I'm sure I'll be hoping that the good loot is as easy to get as it was in CoH. Either way, it'll all be good, as long as I have something to market.
Those who have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing. - John Cleese
Well, purples were a time investiment. As a PvPer I needed multiple sets of purples AND PvPIOs...now I had the funds (on shutdown close to 40 billion inf liquid (Not much) and a base with dozens of purple and PvPIO sets)) but the whole market thing was exceedingly boring for me and I only did it to get the stuff I wanted/needed for level 50+ play.
They had it right when they allowed us to buy purples and such with real money, but sadly they blew it when they made them bind on pickup. Anyways, in this game I hope you have the same system; they can drop from any mob level 47 (?) up and PvPIOs from player vs. player combat.
Heres how I got decked out with the latest and gratest purple sets.
I would go to an influence farmer and buy 2b influence for $4. That was influence cap on CoX. I would buy my purple for 2 billion influence. I did this with 6 different accounts, then traded all of them to my main account. Im beefed out without the heartache of grinding, as at the time my time was limited.
To fix this: lets us who want it now be able to buy it now, but have it as a non-gift-able, non-trade-able items. Nothing to flaunt around, show off and make F2P players jealous. Same exact stats as what is earned in game, but toon/account bound.
This should put the funds back into the CoT coffers, not a F2P account.