The map of the city as last reported ...
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/content/state-game-june-2014][img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/103/284/d64910c54f8b6acccd09ca7edeb5d85c_large.jpg?1401934149[/img][/url]
By counting all of the differently colored districts of the city as planned, I get a total of 34 regions/neighborhoods, including the islands offshore. If I add 1 neighborhood "dedicated" to one of the 5 scale points along each of the 5 Alignment axes (total 15) and designate the largest island visible on the map as an Offshore Prison (think Alcatraz for San Francisco), that then leaves another 18 neighborhoods which haven't been given a definite Alignment orientation and are in effect "fallow" for later definition and purpose.
Of those remaining 18 neighborhoods, 6 of them could eventually be defined as Control Points, which would then make 2 Control Points per Alignment axis. This would then still leave 12 neighborhoods to act as blended buffer zones between various Alignments.
Alternatively, if a 1-10 scale for Alignment axes is desired instead of a 1-5, this could be done using 30 of the 33 neighborhoods, leaving 3 neighborhoods left over for use as Control Points ... plus the Offshore Prison ... for a total of 34.
Needless to say, there are additional middle ground options between a 1-5 scale and a 1-10 scale of Alignment axes possible (always remember to have an escape route!).
I've taken the liberty of annotating the above map with what I'd do pursuing a 1-5 Alignment axis set as a particular course of action.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EbKHWcE.jpg[/img]
As you can see, the city is essentially divided up into regions where the primary continuum is Honor, Law and Peace spread across adjacent neighborhoods. The basic rule of thumb was to make the 1-2 and the 4-5 zones adjacent to each other and make the intermediate 3 zones not have direct border contact with any of the above. That way, there's a certain "progression" between the neighborhoods when moving around the city.
Incidentally, each of the Alignment neighborhoods would have its own Hospital serving that specific Alignment setting (the other two Alignment axes are "accepted" there regardless of values). This would then mean that any PC in need of Hospital services could choose to go to any of the 3 Hospitals that serve the PC's respective Alignments.
Ideally what you'd want to have then is that different areas of the city (north, south and southeast) offer different "flavors" of storylines, with the Contact NPCs for each respective flavor of Mission residing in the appropriate neighborhood. Where those NPCs SEND you to go do your Missions would then use the starting point of the Mission giver NPC to inform the choice of where the Mission Door for that Mission ought to be, allowing for a level of continuity control. The default assumption would be that MOST of the time, the NPC would give you Missions related to a particular Alignment axis within the territory most representative of that axis … but that assumption need not necessarily be binding, depending on what the content creator has in mind for the needs of the storyline.
The Control Points (CP on this map mockup for brevity) would be neighborhoods that can be contested by the various NPC factions in the game, and as such the Alignment axes (all three of them) for those zones can be adjusted and changed depending on which NPC Group holds those Control Points.
Now the neighborhoods that I've defined on this map would essentially be populated by NPCs who all share that specific Alignment setting (think common denominator) … although the values for NPCs on the other two Alignment axes could vary, perhaps even wildly, in different areas within that neighborhood. So just because you're in a Peace 5 part of the city doesn't mean you couldn't encounter a Law 1 group of NPCs and a Law 5 group of NPCs in the same neighborhood (or an Honor 1 and Honor 5 group). Perhaps not on the same street corner (fighting each other) but all "living" in the same neighborhood nonetheless. All it means is that one of the 3 Alignment axes is "fixed" at that value for pretty much every NPC in the neighborhood, thereby determining the overall "character" of that specific part of the city, and what defines its reputation.
Mind you, I have absolutely no idea how MWM plans to distribute NPCs around the city, I'm just engaging in a little bit of a "what if?" scenario here to see if it might all hang together.
So … this would mean that for different Alignment settings, different PCs will have different parts of town that they consider to be their "home turf" and different regions that could be considered "enemy territory" (in effect). Note that for the purposes of this discussion, I would personally prefer to keep the Hero vs Villain distinction something that is Bio Text Meaningful yet Game Mechanically MeaningLESS. By that I mean that there would be no Red vs Blue division and distinction as far as the game mechanics are concerned. Instead there is the Honorable vs the Honorless, the Lawful vs the Unlawful, and the Peaceful vs the Violent. This system would completely sidestep the entire "white hat/black hat" divide of Good vs Evil and even Order vs Chaos and simply leave such interpretations up to a PC's Bio Text to mention/clarify.
Every PC in the game would have a variable recording the values of their three Alignments. I am likewise putting forth the notion that every NPC Group in the game likewise have values assigned to record the three Alignments of that NPC Group, and that all members of that group will share those Alignments.
Depending on how closely a PC's Alignments match the Alignments of an NPC Group, the PC may be a "natural ally" or a "natural enemy" of that specific NPC Group … or the NPCs of that Group may just have a neutral attitude towards the PC. My expectation is that while any PC can GO to any part of town ... depending on your Alignments (Honor, Law, Peace), different parts of town will be hostile/safe for you to move around in (ie. aggro on sight).
My default assumption is that the Alignments of your PC will be "checked" against the Alignments of the NPCs in the local area using a 1-5 scale similar to the one I've marked on the map above.
1 = Low
2 = Mid-low
3 = Middle
4 = Mid-high
5 = High
So take your PC's Alignments, "rate" them on the 1-5 scale, and then cross check against the environment NPCs. Do this for all three Alignment axes individually. If the differential on an axis is:
0 ... then the NPCs are Allies (and therefore, Friendly).
1 ... then the NPCs are Neutral (can be attacked, but won't attack you first and will become hostile if attacked by you).
2 ... then the NPCs are hostile and will attack you on sight.
3 ... then the NPCs are not only hostile and attack you on sight, but ALSO will not require an unblocked line of sight(!) to detect you. This will mean that hostile NPCs on the far side of buildings can be "tipped off" to your presence and move to engage you, even though they had no way to "see you" directly. Thus, there is "no hiding place" from the NPCs in territory that is this hostile to your PC aside from "empty" areas devoid of hostile NPCs.
4 ... then the NPCs are not only hostile and will attack you on sight and do not require an unblocked line of sight to detect you, but when they aggro onto you will also broadcast your presence to a large volume of effect, drawing additional hostile NPCs within the area to your location. In other words, the NPCs will actively attempt to bumrush and "gang up" on your PC when you're in such deeply hostile territory.
This would mean that when venturing into deeply hostile territory it would be possible to draw unwanted amounts of attention (ie. aggro) by openly walking the streets. If the hostility levels are high enough, the NPCs in the area will attempt to gang up on the PCs.
Run this Alignment cross-check against all three Alignment axes (Honor, Law, Peace) to get 3 "social" responses by NPCs to PCs ... Allied, Neutral or Hostile. If 2 of the responses are the same, use that response. So if 2 of the Alignment Axes result in a Neutral reaction, then that gets a "majority vote" in how the NPCs respond to the PC's presence (note that matching 3 Alignment Axes is merely a subset of this condition). If there's a 3-way split (ie. Friendly, Neutral and Hostile) then the NPCs are Hostile (ie. Hostile is "trump" in this circumstance). Such a design layout makes it possible to create "safe" areas for PCs with "neutral ground" in between, but then leaves "most" of the city's NPCs as being either neutral or hostile to the presence of your PC (thereby making Street Sweeping possible).
Implementing this sort of thing would require that NPCs use a dual track system for perception checking … one that honors Line of Sight and one that does not honor Line of Sight. Under conditions in which the NPCs are Hostile … AND … in which the Alignment differential producing the Hostile reaction is 3 or more, the NPCs would be allowed to use non-Line of Sight Perception to be aware of the PC's location. This would then create a behavior pattern of "the neighborhood is watching you" when venturing into "enemy" territory, where information concerning the whereabouts of your PC are much more difficult to suppress, thereby impeding progress and discouraging PCs from venturing into such hostile (literally) territory.
As far as implementation for all of this goes, it could be done in the following stages:
Alignment axis comparisons of PCs to NPCs: pre-launch
Line of Sight perception of PCs by NPCs: pre-launch
Non-Line of Sight perception of PCs by NPCs: post-launch expansion of functionality
Neighborhood Alignments determining available types of NPCs present: pre-launch
One Hospital per Alignment Neighborhood keyed to serve that Alignment: pre-launch
Control Points: post-launch expansion (minimum 3 to start, one in each region of the city), adding more later in future expansions
Options:
PCs attacking NPCs with an Alignment differential of 4 from themselves on any Alignment axis automatically flag themselves as PvP Enabled upon attacking the NPC.
PCs entering neighborhoods with an Alignment differential of 4 from themselves on any Alignment axis automatically flag themselves as PvP Enabled upon entering the neighborhood.
The most important distinction that comes about by using this plan is that although everything in the game is all happening in "one city" … different PCs consider different parts of that "one city" to be THEIR "home turf" in terms of safety and security. Also note that the intent of this design structure is to give each PC *3* places around the city they can call "home turf" instead of just merely 1 place. It's also a design which allows content creators to focus the stories and storylines along the Alignment axis that is most relevant/prevalent within that part of the city, instead of trying to make every story about all three Alignments all at once. In other words, it directs content creation into a "pick 2 out of 3" direction that becomes different in each location.
In essence, even though we'd have only ONE city ... there would be a lot of "cities" within that one city available to us.
And because there wouldn't be any artificial Red vs Blue divide keeping PCs segregated ... [i]Anyone Can Join Anyone Else's Team[/i] regardless of Alignment mismatching between Team members. Doing that then opens up the possibilities of using the Team Leader's Alignment axes for determining NPC reactions to any and all Team members ... which then allows PCs of opposing Alignments to, in effect, "grant safe passage" through what would otherwise be hostile territory for some Team members simply by changing the Team Leader. This would then give an incentive to creating Teams with a variety of Alignments represented on the Team, instead of just merely one homogenous setting.
Other possibilities include the use of a Secret ID function to move safely (albeit, non-superpowered civilian slowly) through intensely "hostile" regions of the city as an added layer of gameplay so as to reach objectives that could potentially be too dangerous to try and reach while in Super ID.
Even if all of this can't be done prior to game launch, I'd like to think that it would be worthwhile to try and build out towards realizing after the game launches.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Admitting that I only viewed the graphic and didn't read the WoT:
I don't like this idea of having certain districts for certain ideals/factions.*
I would like it much better if you showed this trifecta INSIDE a district, not for the entire game-map. Makes map design and content generation much more dynamic.
Usually the further away you go from the game start the harder the content is (also you have travel powers that are faster to reach this content easier). I think we both understand some basic game design so I wont critique the specifics but I will say that you've done a macro scale version of what I am thinking of.
A district should be VAST. it should encompass about 5 or more levels of content inside a single district. The entire City is going to encompass 50 levels of content. Also, I don't necessarily care for Control Points.. at least not at Launch. The concept of them only really works in endgame (where all characters are the same level, and the "rules" of them makes new programming needs that can definitely wait.
- -
Other than that I think we're on the same general page in terms of our desire. A 3 faction system in which you have a "safe" zone and satelite NPCs as mission-arc givers. Your missions/npcs will depend on your current (choosable/changeable) alignment.*
. .
*I am speaking specifically about PvE in this post. The only openworld PvP I advocate for is a self-flagging while out of combat system.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
A very well thought-out design paradigm.
I would definitely not favor automatic PvP-on flags for attacking non-aligned NPCs. Nope. Not even a tiny bit. In practice this would wind up being functionally identical to full-on, open world PvP complete with PvP thugs camping spawns that are prone to attracting non-aligned player attacks due to the rewards they offer or the need to complete badges.
I'm ambivalent about the idea of dividing the city according to alignment. Although you have spent a great deal of time working out the details, I'm not convinced this would enhance gameplay enough to justify the complete redesign of the city it would necessitate. Also, how this scheme would interact with player progression in a game based on player levels (which this one is going to be) concerns me. It would greatly complicate laying out the level progression through the city.
It is an interesting idea, but hard to justify. The resource/benefit analysis doesn't work for me. I wouldn't oppose this scheme, but neither would I advocate in favor of it.
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+1
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Interesting ideas.
On an unrelated note, I'm going to link people to this post when they accuse *me* of being long-winded. :)
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Tying Levels to specific locations is the very definition of Disposable Content Creation. You do all the stuff in Zone 1 and the "graduate" to move on to all the stuff in Zone 2. You then finish up all the stuff to do there and "graduate" to move on to Zone 3. All this is doing is progressing your PC around the game world in an attempt to keep everything "fresh" as well as a way to introduce time sinks for travel.
Take a look at the map I posted. Now try to figure out how you're going to shoehorn 50 Levels of content (or even just 30 Levels of content for game launch) into those Zones. You've got 33 neighborhoods plus an Offshore Prison to do this in. So what have you got? 1-2 neighborhoods per Level? And then when you're finished with those neighborhoods, you just never come back to them because of [b]All Grey To Me[/b] factor?
There's a reason why my map doesn't include ANYTHING about Levels at all, because the design is Level Agnostic. So rather than being Level 30 and being directed to either Founders' Falls, Eden, Brickstown or Crey's Folly (all 30-39 zones) like Heroes were in City of Heroes ... here, you're just a Law 3, Honor 4, Peace 2 aligned PC, and your Contact NPCs could send you [b]*ANYWHERE*[/b] in the city, including what YOU might personally consider hostile territory (say an Honor 1 or a Peace 5 location as an extreme example) in order to do whatever your objective is, which could be something as simple as entering a Mission Door to get into an instanced Mission.
The key thing about this design structure is that rather than just playing in selective parts of the city because you're Level {blah}, instead you're playing in the WHOLE city pretty much from the get go after the Tutorial.
Now, the INCENTIVES to go places will be provided by your Contact NPCs who will send you out on Missions to do stuff, and those kinds of things can be biased in Near vs Far travel to objectives based on your Level (ie. are you grown up enough to go across town for this?) with the newbies "staying close to home" and the Level Cap PCs getting sent all over the place. The point is to use the WHOLE city as your stomping grounds, not just a minority slice of it, when you start getting up towards the Level Cap.
In other words, just because you're Level 50 doesn't mean that the only places to go for you are the Rikti War Zone, The Hive, Peregrine Island, (really) Dark(er) Astoria, The Chantry or The Storm Palace, simply because you're outleveled everything else in the game.
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On a personal note, I'm not all that keen on automatic flagging for PvP myself, either due to attacking an NPC or due to entering a neighborhood of a sufficiently opposed Alignment (ie. differential of 4). I simply mention them for the purposes of pointing out that you can't have your cake and eat it too on this issue, concerning the "keep out" factor against maximally opposed Alignments. I mention these possibilities as being the logical extension of the "capital cities" setup in World of Warcraft where engaging certain kinds of NPCs (ie. Guards) and entering certain locations (ie. enemy capitals) is on its own sufficient to get your PC involuntarily flagged for PvP. In most cases, these are adequate deterrents against Players engaging in a variety of inherently hostile behaviors without fear or risk of reprisal from opposing faction Players.
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Hmmm....I am rather intrigued by this idea of being sent to different areas of the city based on the alignment scale instead of the level....
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
Remember in the early days of CoH when the one TF would send you to Brickstown and if you flew too low (or, heh-heh, didn't have Fly at all...<.<) you'd get ganked by 5th Column warwolves?
*sigh* good times....
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
My only issue with this idea is that I'm aware that each neighborhood in the City is expected to have an underlying Theme. What if I want to operate out of 'Alexandria', but my 'Alignment Vectors' are not in sync with this, somewhat arbitrary, neighborhood-alignment plan?
What if I want to visit the jazz clubs down by the river, but I'm just 'too nice' to suit the neighbors? You suggest that they'll be able to 'smell' me a mile away and call in the enforcers to beat me up? Irrespective of level? What about my 'secret identity'? Will they 'smell' my alignment through a disguise?
Ultimately, this seems like a scheme that would result in there being parts of the city that I Could Not Visit. Not without spawning a giant zone-event. I'm not content with that.
I'm not against the presence of 'neighborhood alignments', but I think this application of the concept is too broad and too... forceful. The city should not be a battlefield of competing no-person's lands.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Well I kind of agree.
Spiderman operates normally in Manhattan. Dare Devil in Hell's Kitchen. Same City same company, even some of the same villains. Still the locations are different and provides different experience.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
There's also a whole side debate on why hospitals with differing respect for the law provide the same level of service or the honorless merchants provide the boost they advertised etc.
In City of Heroes, for the most part almost every single zone was filled with hostile NPCs. Some of the exceptions were places like Nova Praetoria, where some of the NPCs were Neutral to the PCs (regardless of being a Loyalist or Resistance) and maybe a couple others. But the default was that the NPCs in every zone were by and large hostile to the PC. The thing was, once your PC became Level +5 vs the NPCs, the NPCs would just ignore you from that point onwards ... in effect turning "neutral" to your presence (thanks to [b]All Grey To Me[/b]).
Even at the Level Cap, entire zones were filled with hostile NPCs.
The Hive.
The Abyss.
Rikti War Zone.
Grandville.
Peregrine Island.
The Chantry.
The Storm Palace.
Monster Island.
REALLY Dark Astoria!
Even at Level 50, the NPCs were still hostile and would automatically aggro onto you if you got too close to them ... and yet they weren't [b]No Go Zones[/b] for PCs. It was hostile territory, so you typically didn't want to go there [i]unless you had a reason to go there[/i] (such as, say ... a Mission Door, or a storyline), but there was never a sense of panic and "but I can't go!" weeping about the impossibilities. Hostile NPCs were a hassle, sometimes an annoyance, but rarely were they an absolute bar against entry (although the Rularuu could do a real number on unescorted squishies).
Heck, I remember a time when Level 1-3 PCs decided they didn't like their costume choices and had to go to ICON in either north Steel Canyon or eastern Independence Port. In order to get there, they had to either go through northern Steel Canyon (Level +15 NPCs) or through King's Row (Level +5 NPCs) and into Independence Port (Level +20 NPCs). In other words, seriously hostile territory! And yet, people did it. They didn't do it "casually" mind you, but they did it because they had a motivation (get to ICON).
Getting around The Hollows at Levels 6-10 could be a harrowing experience ... and yet people still managed to do it. Heck, I even went Trick or Treating in The Hollows as a newbie that first year back in Issue 2!
There were Snipers in Crey's Folly, Founders' Falls and in Peregrine Island, and yet their presence didn't PREVENT people from going there. It just meant that you might need to be a bit more careful about WHERE you went in those zones, and how much you needed to be on your toes and paying attention to your surroundings.
Yes, the difficulty level that I'm positing with this idea [i]can go[/i] to pretty darn high ... but then, that's kind of the point isn't it? If it wasn't, no one would have ever played on +4x8 difficulty in City of Heroes, would they? And yet, for a significant slice of the population, +4x8 was considered the baseline "minimum" of performance expectations.
In other words, the system I've designed here can cater to everyone from the carebears to the hardcore, because it works on a spectrum, rather than on a One Size Fits All.
As far as "smelling you a mile away" ... that's an exaggeration. Perception RANGES of NPCs would be unchanged, so if an NPC can spot you 100 ft away, they can still only detect you at 100 ft distant. The difference is that the Line of Sight rule can allow "dead zones" to appear within that sphere of awareness, allowing you to get a lot closer, undetected if Line of Sight is blocking the NPC's Perceptions, as opposed to not blocking it. All the "Line of Sight not required" rule change does is eliminate those hiding spots within the already established Perception Range of the NPCs, allowing them to detect and aggro onto you (and your position) without requiring a direct Line of Sight to know where you are. After that, it's still a Pathing Problem for them to actually get into Line of Sight to engage you in combat.
This supposition also relies on a presumption that the "density" of NPCs will be so high as to leave no coverage gaps anywhere between them, and thus no place to hide. Is that a fair/reasonable assumption to make? I guess it just depends on the placement of Spawn Groups and whether any of them are "patrolling" the area, wouldn't it? That's more a matter of disposition of NPCs within the environment than anything else. However, I would say that I've never yet seen a game pack the hostile NPCs so tightly together as to leave "no room" between their overlapping Perception Ranges. My assumption is that the ... packing density ... of NPCs wouldn't be incredibly high and that as a result "seams" between their Perception Ranges would emerge, allowing (fleeting?) routes to move around between them to appear and disappear, creating a sort of "moving puzzle maze" for the PC to navigate. You know ... just like every other MMORPG out there.
As for a Secret ID ... I've been trying (and trying and trying) to get MWM to agree that having a non-powered Secret ID optional style of gameplay would be worthwhile and something which could be developed in a variety of ways, including "going undercover" so as to go places that would normally be rather dangerous for your PC. Even if that's all the Secret ID gets used for ... to [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Walk#Walk]Walk[/url] into places that are otherwise "too hostile" for you to normally enter, that would be enough to build on for additional content and features in the future.
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Simplification ... as well as Leveling The Playing Field such that there isn't any (Developer) favoritism towards a particular Alignment setting or axis.
Now, the Low Law Hospital might be an "illegal" Street Doc, but they're still just as competent (if not more so to compensate for the lack of funding and support equipment) as a fully staffed hospital building with 1000 beds and a budget running in the tens of millions.
A High Law Hospital is the one that the police go to and the place is just crawling with law enforcement.
A High Peace Hospital may be ethically opposed to "doing violence to the body" by cutting it open to perform surgery (ie. an extremist view of Do No Harm) and instead uses non-invasive tools and techniques to achieve the same results ... which could mean Magic or even Technology So Advanced It Might As Well Be Magic.
A Low Peace Hospital could be a "chop shop" run by Dr. [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Vahzilok]Vahzilok[/url] and be something of a Chamber Of Horrors filled with screaming "patients" that simply "gets the job done" and patches you up. Hey, you're ALIVE aren't you? Quit your pathetic whining or we'll sign you up as an Involuntary Donor!
In other words, just because the different hospitals in the different neighborhoods all serve the exact same [i]game mechanical purpose and function[/i], the setting, ambiance and environment around those facilities could be completely and entirely different, to better establish and support the notion that the "lore" of those facilities is informed by the types of neighborhoods they're found in. So the game mechanics are the same, but the facilities are different. In other words, I'd rather not have a One Size Fits All "[url=http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//5/53/KingsRow_CrowneMemorial.ogg]hospital[/url]" building that just gets repeated over and over and over again with only a name change on the outside because you're in a different [s]zone[/s] neighborhood.
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Fireheart's thoughts about walking into the wrong neighborhood reminded me of an interview Kevin Pollak did with Thomas Lennon (star of The State on MtV in the 90s as well as Reno 911). In it, Lennon related a story about his college days at NYU, when The State was in it's nascent stages, and described 1989 New York city as "So there I am walking around NYC in a not-for-irony yellow bowtie and a swaeter-vest and it was, like exactly, that movie The Warriors. Like everywhere you went the mime standing next to you was as apt to try to mug as anyone else. Like they could have filmed that movie just using people who were standing around at the time."
But I digress. Remember halloween in CoX, with the costumes? You could have temp powers that act as a disguise so that you can walk down the street safely in different types of neighborhoods. They could have a set limit on how long they last or number of uses like the jellomen or jetpack powers had and thus you could make them cost IGC to craft up and make the whole thing a small IGC sink.
Edit: That interview is on YouTube, under Kevin Pollak's channel "Kevin Pollak's Chat Show". There is much use of foul language, but Pollak has interviewed some really great guests in the last 5 years, and Thomas Lennon is one of the more entertaining interviews, to me, even more so if you remember and like The State and/or Reno 911, not that he talks all that much about either one.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
You mean like [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Freakshow_Disguise]this[/url] ...?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/x7RsxBR.jpg[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/V2KwwqV.jpg[/img]
Or like [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Arachnos_Disguise]this[/url]?
Shouldn't be that hard to do ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Hmm. Okay, I'm still ambivalent about the initial concept, but I do love this hospital idea. And it doesn't have to rely on the zone break down idea. It could simply be implemented as additional flavor befitting the theme of each zone.
It would make the original concept more palatable, though. Carrying the distinctions this deeply into the design paradigm has very good potential for creating a wide variety of entertaining and interesting zones.
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That's essentially the idea ... harmonization of the "character" of the neighborhood with the things in it.
For example, in Paragon City, Steel Canyon was supposed to be the "financial hub" of the city. But the only way you'd know it would be to scoop up some badges/plaques that said so (and read them) or figure it out because one part of the zone was the [url=http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//c/c0/SteelCanyon_CopperDistrict.ogg]Copper District[/url] and there was [url=http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//a/a7/SteelCanyon_SilverLake.ogg]Silver Lake[/url] and [url=http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//a/a4/SteelCanyon_PlatinumLake.ogg]Platinum Lake[/url] and [url=http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//8/85/SteelCanyon_BronzeWay.ogg]Bronze Way[/url]. I suppose those kinda sorta add up to being a "financial district" ... sort of ... maybe?
I don't know about anyone else, but that doesn't exactly sound a whole lot like the Steel Canyon that I "knew" as a Player. The Steel Canyon that I saw was mostly concrete slab buildings that were all depressingly Totalitarian Grey.
The thing is, in City of Titans, I'd really like to see the neighborhoods around the city all have THEMATIC elements to them ... and I'm not talking about how Skyway was all Bridges To Nowhere as its theme of verticality gone wrong. I'm talking about how certain neighborhoods around the city ought to have particular thematic elements to them [i]that just so happen to coincide with Alignment axis issues[/i]. This means that there's a "violent" end of town, and there's a "gangland" part of town and there's the "smugglers' island" off shore and so on. In other words, instead of trying to cram pack EVERY theme into EVERY neighborhood, so as make everything uniform (and boring!) ... instead there are different parts of the city that in effect "specialize" or are more oriented towards particular "genres" of content creation and storytelling.
You can see that sort of thinking reflected in the annotated map I made.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EbKHWcE.jpg[/img]
A lot of the Law vs Lawless stories would be happening on the east side of the city, where the city's police HQ is located and is trying to clean up the docks to the north. This is a blue collar working region of the city and includes some of the old factory facilities dating back to the 19th century. The southern end of the city is relatively peaceful, but across the river to the west there's been a lot of violence recently and it simply isn't safe to walk the streets over there. To the north of the river is the city's financial center where there is plenty of wheeling and dealing. White collar crimes are most likely to be types of stories told up here, as well as the activities of organized crime syndicates, including prostitution and gambling dens (among other things).
As you can see, even from as minimalist a sketch as that paragraph, you can probably already start to get a "feel" for what the city ought to be like, and what sorts of stories "belong" in which parts of town. It isn't an absolute sorting, mind you, but it ought to be some decent guidance in terms of where things will probably go down, and what sorts of influences ought to be at work in different places.
It's kind of like knowing what the Pirate Code means ...
[youtube]b6kgS_AwuH0[/youtube]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Okay, but what was described in the OP was not just a matter of avoiding the aggro-radius of stationary locals. That gave extended aggro range, right through walls and obstacles, such that one could be aggro'd by NPCs that were invisible, who could then call a cascade of unfriendly neighbors down on the PC. There was no suggestion that one only had to avoid the faction enemies in the distinctive costumes, but that even the civilians on the street had faction and alignment.
And a lack of zone-levels meant that even at level 50, one could expect to have to fight for the right to breathe the air.
As I said, not a bad idea, but I don't think this is the right implementation.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Do you mean this part?
I don't see anything there about extending ranges. Trust me, that's a wrinkle I would have added if I'd meant it to be there.
Closest thing I can see to a backdoor way to range extend would be the "battle cry" Aggro Shout on the differential 4. Depending on where the balance team of Devs decides to put that, the PBVoE on that might not alert that many additional Foes ... or maybe it will, depending on the spawn group density of the area where it happens. For clarification, I was thinking in terms of the broadcast radius being somewhere between 1x to 2x Perception Range for the NPCs, with 1x being the place to start playtesting and seeing if it would need to be ramped up or nerfed down. Mind you, that PBVoE would be centered on the Foe NPCs, not on the PC, meaning that it would still functionally increase the volume of space the PC needs to be worried about drawing aggro from, thanks to the "leapfrogging" configuration of relative positionings.
The thing you wouldn't want to have happening is a chain reaction of aggro that draws the entire population of the neighborhood. In other words, condition the broadcast "shout" of aggro communication on being within Perception Range of the PC.
I would also point out that any sort of differential 4 situation is going to be a 1 vs 5 of maximal Alignment opposition AND require that the other two Alignment axes NOT be either both Neutral or both Friendly. I for one would expect a maximal opposition "you don't belong here!" situation to result in the NPCs "border guarding" their own turf against the incursion by the PC.
Again, that's a question of Foe NPC density and placement. It's also assuming that there aren't any NPC vs NPC battles going on (ala Croatoa) which could keep them distracted. So for example, in a Peace 5 neighborhood, there's almost no street battles of any kind going on, and if you start a fight the Neighborhood Watch will turn out to chase you away. In a Peace 1 neighborhood, not only is it every man for himself but there are active gun battles in the street reminiscent of the Rikti War Zone happening CONSTANTLY. The NPCs are actively patrolling and fighting against each other all the time ... try not to distract them (ie. draw their fire) by "existing" too hard near them when they get done with their current target of interest and are looking around for something else to kill.
My baseline assumption is that there will be "room to breathe" even in deeply hostile (to your PC) territory, but even then, you're still going to want to watch your step. Safest way to travel through deeply hostile territory would be either:
Stealth
Deception / Decoys to draw NPCs away from where you want to go and/or be
Be where the NPCs aren't (which often means maintaining altitude above the fray below)
Secret ID going "undercover" to penetrate "enemy" territory
Team up with someone closer to that Alignment and let them be the Team Leader, giving you "safe(r) passage" through the neighborhood
So it's hardly as if Players would be completely helpless and without options. In other words, choosing HOW to deal with venturing into rabidly hostile territory would be just as much a part of playing the game as actually going there.
Consider that on Virtue server, and some of the other servers as well, there was the Taxibot Super Group that provided Recall Friend services to Players (usually lowbies) in need. The Taxibots were very much appreciated in The Hollows! It doesn't take a whole lot of foresight to assume that something similar might crop up in City of Titans for the 1 and 5 Alignment neighborhoods, and maybe even for the 2 and 4 neighborhoods too (you never know).
In other words, just because a neighborhood would "normally" be rabidly hostile to your PC, don't automatically assume that there's NO WAY for your PC to get in there [i]relatively[/i] safely. Indeed, the whole Team Leader = "free passage" clause would probably do a fair bit to encourage teaming, even if only for a momentary convenience, helping to counteract the natural tendency of Players to self-segregate into soloing anything and everything.
Overcoming an obstacle by cooperatively working together with other Players in the game? [b]Working As INTENDED[/b].
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Math error: not all zones on the map will be open at game launch. So you'd be spreading 50 levels across those. So around 2 levels per neighborhood.
BUT you could do it like CoH did initially, with multiple zones per level range. For example, Atlas Park and Galaxy City had the same level range (before they blew up the latter). King's Row was kind of the oddball. Two zones per level range gets you three levels per zone. Three zones per level range gets you about five levels per zone.
Haven't read the rest yet, so I'll refrain from commenting more and assume that you dealt with the "how to keep low level folks from getting smeared by high level street mobs" problem, which is the primary reason for assigning level ranges to zones.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
If there is to be open world PvP, which is very big IF right there, there is only one way to implement it(*). Players with opposite flags can not interact in any way or form. They can not damage each other, they can not heal nor (de)buff. Also, as soon as an NPC is affected by a player it gains that players PvP state, for as long as it remains in combat state (so even buffing a NPC would put it into combat state even though it would not actually attack). This means that once a PvP player attacks an NPC the PvE players nearby don't have any way to influence that battle =unless they voluntarily flip their PvP switch= Then after a, say, 30 second delay they are PvP flagged themselves and are able to attack PvP flagged players and NPCs. Getting rid of the PvP flag again is essentially the same process but takes more time and has some restrictions on where it can be done (so no flipping out of PvP if the battle goes bad for you). NPCs of course start in a 'neutral' state that allows them to be affected by anybody, regardless of PvP flag, but once in combat state they are limited in the same way players are to interaction with only players (and NPCs) that are similarly flagged. NPCs don't have the 30 second delay and flag instantly on aggro.
(* unless the developers -want- players to be tricked into involuntarily flagging for PvP in the hope it will stick and they will somehow miraculously like it, as I suspect bioware does for SW:TOR).
It is fixed easily enough. If you want Alexandria to not be deeply hostile to you, fix your alignment (I believe the idea was that you could influence it through your actions after all)
Keeping your alignment close to 3 on every axis would keep the alignment distance with every zone at a maximum of 2, hostile but not hazard zone levels.
[quote=FireheartUltimately, this seems like a scheme that would result in there being parts of the city that I Could Not Visit. Not without spawning a giant zone-event. I'm not content with that.
I'm not against the presence of 'neighborhood alignments', but I think this application of the concept is too broad and too... forceful. The city should not be a battlefield of competing no-person's lands.
[/quote]
Entering deeply hostile territory could also be solved by having non-line of sight triggering only once you enter combat, and its radius scaling logarithmically with the number of enemies on your aggro list (i.e. quickly at first, but slower and slower as enemies are attacking you, but it will never stop expanding completely).
The idea is that if you're careful or have a disguise or some form of invisibility you may sneak into the territory and as long as you are not spotted (i.e. attacked) you wiill be able to sneak through. But if you get into a fight then your enemies will simply call for reinforcements...
Right, but there is a vast difference between any particular Faction having Alignment and applying that Alignment to an entire Neighborhood/Region/Zone.
In the case of Factions (Gangs, Corporations, etc) one simply has to avoid being aggro'ed by NPCs wearing that distinctive livery. In the case of Neighborhoods, the civilians come boiling out of the sewers to eat your brains. You cannot Not aggro the ground beneath your feet, if it has Alignment.
CoH did have zones in which the Factions had essentially taken over. They were called 'Hazard Zones'.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Correct, which is why I feel that you're overstating what I'm proposing.
Honor 3 neighborhood contains NPCs with Honor 3, Law 1-5 and Peace 1-5.
Law 3 neighborhood contains NPCs with Honor 1-5, Law 3 and Peace 1-5.
Peace 3 neighborhood contains NPCs with Honor 1-5, Law 1-5 and Peace 3.
In other words, the neighborhood Alignment system I was outlining would define ONE value on ONE of the three Alignment axes, leaving the rest as variables. It basically would "fix" one parameter and leave the other two parameters "free" to run the gamut of possibilities.
If the "neighborhood is against you" then that's going to be a part of town you'll want to watch your step in (gee, big surprise, eh?). But the key point is, the neighborhood [b][i]won't be "against everybody"[/i][/b] ... or at least, it won't be against all PCs equally, simply because different PCs can have different Alignments. In other words, one PC's "trash" is another PC's "treasure" since the way the Alignments "line up" will be different for different PCs. That way, you can get a really good mixture going.
Which then begs the question of ... if you go into [b]deeply hostile territory[/b] why WOULDN'T you expect that to happen?
Or to put it another way ... in World of Warcraft, if you're playing an Alliance PC and you walk into a Horde Capital City (ie. deeply hostile territory) ... why should you expect to be allowed to just wander around, completely unmolested? Why are you NOT expecting city guards to start bumrushing you when you start swanning around an enemy capital city?
Or to give another example ... if you're playing [b]Robocop[/b] as your PC and you [i]casually stroll into a drug factory[/i] would you expect a reception to your presence to be something as hostile as this?
[youtube]h16e5Bm2m3M[/youtube]
When the NEIGHBORHOOD HATES YOU and would like nothing better than to see you get blown to bits, why would you NOT expect a hostile reception to your presence there if you show/flaunt yourself openly there? You can still go there, of course ... just [b][i]don't expect to be greeted as a "LIBERATOR" when you do[/i][/b] ...
And note that under the rules that I proposed, assembling a Team with a diversity of Alignments in it would potentially mitigate very nearly all of these problems ... simply by handing off the Team Leadership "star" to whoever most closely match the Alignment of that neighborhood, granting "safe passage" to everyone else on the Team (ie. use Team Leader's Alignment values to determine NPC reactions to all Team members).
Need to go where it's really dangerous for YOU to go? Get yourself a "guide" and Team up with them.
Doesn't help the soloists much, but then people who insist on playing solo deliberately and actively decline to accept a lot of the benefits of Team play ... so there you go. Whose fault is that?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I expect Awful Kerfuffle's Drug Factory and Thug Emporium to be Instanced, actually. I don't expect all of Ironport to be united against me.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Then don't do things that piss off all of Ironport.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Just like in Elite Dangerous: You can do stuff that affects your reputation with a multitude of factions, and infact get so bad that you cannot dock at the LARGER stations.
Outposts though? Dock there, just be quick whilst you do your business.
So pissing off the Empire, Federation and Alliance is relatively easy to do (lots of smuggling goods into their stations for example). But you can also be nice and safe and just sell exploration data/hunt down the wanted criminals and that can increase your standing with them accordingly.
Of course, killing criminals drops your standings with THAT group, so you will never actually be able to be loved by all.
Unless you went 100% pacifist.
Let's unpack this into its component parts to examine the underlying assumptions, shall we?
Instanced vs Neighborhood.
Agreed that the Robocop vs Drug Factory example best describes an instanced Mission scenario. But then the expectation is that ALL NPCs within an instanced Mission are supposed to be Hostile Foe NPCs, by definition (except for hostages, rescues, escorts and so on). So when you enter an instance, the basic underlying assumption is that anything and everything (with severely limited exceptions) inside that instance is going to be opposed to your presence and behave with a Kill On Sight behavior pattern.
Why is it "wrong" to extend that type of behavior pattern [i]out of the instance and into the larger open world[/i]? Why must such hostile reactions be *confined* to only happening inside of instances?
With respect to not expecting all of "Ironport" to be united against you ... I guess that depends on whether or not your Super ID is [b]THE RUST MONSTER[/b] or not, wouldn't it? I mean, seriously ... if your superpower is to RUST everything around you, would you really expect to be warmly welcomed in a place called IRONport, that's made of IRON and relies on the strength of iron alloys (steel, etc.) to keep everything in working order and everyone safe.
PC: Hi! I'm [b]THE RUST MONSTER[/b].
NPCs: Welcome to Ironport! Hope you enjoy your stay!
Uh ... no.
If the mere *presence* of your PC [b]is a sufficiently big threat[/b] to the health, wealth, safety and security of the NPCs in Ironport, and this fact is either "known" (because of your reputation) or obvious (because of what you can do) then the reaction of the NPCs is going be rather decidedly negative and they're either going to want to chase you out of Ironport or otherwise "put you down" so you're no longer a threat to them.
That means that if [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Blue_Steel]Blue Steel[/url] goes for a stroll in Bad Guy Central Town™, they aren't going to roll out the red carpet for him and welcome him into their midst. Blue Steel isn't going to be "welcomed" in gangland where the criminal element "rules the streets" AND has everyone in that neighborhood ON THEIR SIDE ... including the civilians and informants.
Remember, we're talking about maximally opposed Alignments here. This is opposite ends of the Alignment scale brackets.
Perhaps this example of "the neighborhood is against you" will be a better example for you when it comes to tracking your movements ...
[youtube]UdjwKKDPpUU[/youtube]
Note that literally everyone you see in this clip *except* for James Bond is a non-combatant NPC for MMORPG purposes, and yet there's a LOT OF THEM passing information about an incursion into "their territory" by an unwanted intruder. James Bond goes to Harlem (in the early 70s). What kind of reception should he expect? Think he'll stick out like a sore thumb? Why would that be?
Of course, there are going to be a variety of different ways to successfully move around in what is otherwise "hostile territory" for your PC. That could mean everything from getting yourself a "guide" to safeguard you from the locals to being very very stealthy (so no one perceives your presence in the first place) to simply moving through very very fast so that you're in and out before anyone can react to your being there.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/4EDhSx3.gif[/img]
Or you could just fight everything you come across and "sweep the streets" like a BAMF™ because that's just the kind of In Your Face character you play. The choice is yours. Just don't screw it up and get in over your head.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I'm not saying that a community such as Harlem, or Watts, or Waco, or any of the Chinatowns, or any other cohesive community would not develop a defensive attitude towards an outsider. I do object to the thinking that an entire zone would express a consistent 'Alignment' and be able to sense the presence of a mis-Aligned intruder. Your examples generally show an organized Faction in action, while Johnny-on-the-street is ignorant or oblivious to the presence of both the Faction and their target.
You also insist that there is a zone for every alignment variation, while I'm trying to say that every zone is likely to have a variety of alignments. Most of which will be ignorant or oblivious, or simply 'Neutral' to most alignment variations. People just want to get through their lives without having to deal with such things.
I think many people who propose ideas for this game can become so attached to Their Big Idea, that they're willing to ignore the fact that life just isn't that neat.
The block around a powerful Faction-hidout may express support for that Faction's alignment, either through agreement, or sheer fear of contradiction, but the civilians (and even the thugs) are not going to swarm a police cruiser or wandering hero because of that.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I don't think the original idea was for -civilians- to attack the heroes/villains entering a neighbourhood.
And there are plenty of real world examples of walking into the wrong neighbourhood as a perceived enemy of the dominant faction being met with violence. Once upon a not so very long ago time in Los Angeles wearing the wrong colour shirt in the wrong neighbourhood could get you shot.
Bagdad at the height of the (still ongoing) civil war had neighbourhoods violently resisting any faction perceived as opposing.
France, the UK and now several towns in the USA (most recently Baltimore) had inhabitants of a neighbourhood react violently to the presence of police (and other representatives of authority like e.g. firefighters, or reporters) when the tension in those neighbourhoods reached a boiling point.
These are just examples of how what Redlynne is proposing is not that far-fetched.
For myself I think the best way to implement this is by increasing the aggro radius linearly depending on how far your effective alignment deviates from that of the zone. However, the assist radius doubles with each step away from the norm.
This would allow you to try to sneak through a neighbourhood, or use a disguise, but if you get into a fight then you will draw a much larger crowd of your enemy and its allies than you would in a zone that is more similarly aligned.
This would mimic the suspicion any outsider would be met with in a zone that is partially controlled by gangs or vigilantes or law enforcement. It would also mimic how the noise of a fight would draw more enemies that are nearby but perhaps just around the corner or making a deal in a back alley. and of course modern gangs have mobile phones and whatsapp too, so before rushing in to assist their gang / vigilante group / law enforcement fellows, they will send a message calling for more reinforcements.
I am even in favour of if you take too long to win the fight, more distant, and much more heavy hitting, enemies start showing up who had to travel longer distance and had to gear up with the heavy equipment. That must happen slow enough that there is a decent chance for players to actually finish the fight (and must scale to the amount of 'fast' and 'slow' archetypes). The idea is, however, that there are parts of the city where you can find yourself overwhelmedif you don't make proper preparations (unlike most games where the only relevant metric is level). Incidentally it would also make controllers a valuable asset as they can shut down part of a fight, or prevent it entirey, and make it less noisy (i.e. drawing less reinforcements), allowing a group to make it through an enemy zone avoiding getting into messy fights.
And of course, if your character is much higher level than the zone, that will sharply reduce both aggro radius and assist radius (all the way to zero if the difference is big enough, meaning the enemies will actively avoid you and not engage no matter what). No sane street level thug would think of attacking superman, not even if there are two hundred of his fellows. They would know 'this guy stops exploding volcanos for his day job and blows up moons in his spare time for funsies... today is a good day to call in sick...' A quick turning the gang jacket inside out and 'ganger Bahbstard' becomes 'boring civilian Bob'.
Right, but that is another example of the Faction having alignment and territory.
What I got from the initial post was an arrangement where the individual neighborhoods, the 'zones', each had an assigned alignment. Only people with a particular alignment would be completely comfortable and safe in that area. My response to that was that the plan was too broad in application, too fixed in interpretation. I did not imagine that the citizens of the city, or the powers that be, would arrange things that way.
They're going to be more mixed-up. Faction territory (and aggression) is likely to be more fluid - responding, in some ways, like Redlynn's suggestion of 'control points', to pressures applied by Super and civilian forces.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Add in the fact that I was just taking the idea and running with it and seeing where things would logically go if taken to their conclusions. The key point though was that SOME areas of the city would be reliably "one thing" [i]out of three things[/i] yet still retaining a mixture on the remaining 2 out of 3 parameters for Alignments. Likewise, the areas of the city which are "dangerous" to MY PC may not be the same regions that are different to YOUR PC, creating a sort of replay factor for alts with different Alignments. That way, you don't get just ONE city, but in effect MANY cities all at the same time, with the big difference being WHO YOU ARE as opposed to being strictly limited to WHERE you go (because you're a "hero" or a "villain").
And the beauty of it was that the system I was proposing offered ... guidelines ... for merely half the neighborhoods, while the rest could still be more convoluted, complex mixtures, up to and including neighborhoods with shifting loyalties that could be fought over (ie. Control Points) ... and even then I still had parts of the map left over and held in reserve for additional options.
In other words, I wanted to take the training wheels off the bicycle. ^_~
And just like learning to ride a bike, I figured that there'd be some necessary "learning to ride" for the system, but once everyone got used to it, would find that they could pull some pretty interesting stunts once the training wheels had come off.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
And the "it only specifies one axis" part is a deliberate yet [i]unnecessary[/i] restriction. You can get similar effects by restricting two axes to a tight range (say 1-2 or 4-5) and letting the third run free, as well. For example, Peace 4-5 + Law 4-5 for a wealthy neighborhood, where Honor could be all over the place but the residents get quick, significant police support and intervention (Law 4-5) and place a premium on maintaining the status quo (Peace 4-5).
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Yes, that would be a tighter application of the basic idea, where certain areas certainly Do expect and express a particular set of alignments. There certainly could be 'bad' parts of town, where being 'good' would bring out the muggers in force, or vice-versa. Still, I expect the aggressive response would come from one of the Factions, and not the citizens themselves.
And, even those restrictive areas would not necessarily recognize a threat in the visiting PC, unless they engaged in disruptive behavior, whether that be peeing on a fire hydrant, or cleaning up graffiti, or knocking over some local asset.
Be Well!
Fireheart
This would be a distinction between Combatant NPCs and Non-combatant NPCs, which I could certainly support. It is, after all, how City of Heroes handled "civilian" NPCs who could not be fought.
The distinction that my proposal added is that in deeply hostile territory, such Non-combatant NPCs could (in effect) pass information on to the Combat NPCs, thereby "justifying" the ability of the Combat NPCs to "see through terrain/obstacles" in order to know where your PC is. Game mechanically, all that's going on is removing the Line of Sight restriction to Perception on the Combat NPCs. Lore-wise, what's going on is that "the neighborhood is watching you" and passing information on your whereabouts and movements from the Non-combat NPCs to the Combat NPCs, improving the "awareness" of the Combat NPCs in such a way as to PERMIT the "No Line Of Sight Detection" method as described by the game mechanics.
Bear in mind that such behavior would only occur in deeply hostile territory, as opposed to anywhere and everywhere.
I take the broader view that a PC's Alignment represents their "reputation" in Titan City (ie. what they are "known" for). The Alignments don't necessarily result in an amplitude of fame/notoriety, so they're more of a WHAT or a WHERE measurement on the continuum rather than a HOW MUCH meter.
If it helps to think of a rainbow of colors, the Alignment scales determine where your PC falls in the spectrum(s), but don't determine how brightly your PC "shines" in those colors. Thus Alignments would give you a "hue" value, but not an "intensity" or "brightness" value, if that makes sense to you. Any sort of "intensity" or "brightness" would be determined by something like Level or even better yet by something as simple as what the Player writes in the PC's Bio.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]