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I'm honestly not interested in being fair to anyone.
I'm interested in the game being both believable and not hostile to anyone.
That means it's not necessary to represent every religion, equally
but to show each religion as much as you would expect to see them in a city in New England.
and above all not to make the game appear hostile to religion by excluding it.
This is important because we Know that religion can't and won't be totally excluded.
Even if it's minimized in the official content
There will be missions based on religious ideas
There will be players whose toons have religious themes
There will be villains who are religious figures.
There will be evil cults like the Circle of Thorns, or the Deep Ones (I dunno)
There will be graveyards that look like Christian graveyards
and a lot of them will be crawling with undead monsters
There will be aliens (which has religious significance to a lot of people)
There will be a LOT of magic
To try to avoid the subject is just ludicrous, and with so much negative stuff that will be there, it really puts religion in a negative light to not balance it.
So Keep it generic. That's fine with me.
We have no reason to care if the Church is Baptist, Methodist, or Presbyterian.
However there are some visual elements that clearly set certain groups apart.
Some of them should look Catholic and some should Look Protestant.
And there should be at least one Temple and Mosque that look like a temple and a Mosque.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram]Pentagrams[/url] are routinely associated (right or wrong) with Wicca and/or Satanism and the Yin-Yang is routinely associated with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daoism]Taoism[/url].
Now you and I can debate the merits of considering these things as being just as "religiously recognizable" as crucifixion crosses or emblems on Israeli flags but that is the very point I'm trying to make here - sooner or later people will start to nit-pick whether these things actually serve any constructive purpose in a MMO other than just being used as the foci of contention and argument.
As I said before it might very well be easier to leave these few particular symbols out of the mix. That'll still leave us hundreds if not thousands of other less questionable symbols to choose from.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Your notion that "religious balance" would be obtained by randomly throwing in a larger number overtly real world religious buildings and/or NPCs than CoH had is ludicrous and misguided.
Completely avoiding the symbolism related to ANY and ALL religions won't put any given religion in a "negative light" - it'll actually collectively save them all from becoming lightning rods of hatred and argument inside a fictional MMO game. Religion in general causes enough trouble and strife in the real world to let examples of it bleed into a game like CoT. The ideals of the separation of church and state save us from these things in American government - let's learn from that wise precedent and apply it to MMOs as well.
And with that there should be at least one Satanic temple, one Church of Scientology building, a building where the atheists meet on Sunday to feel sorry for everyone else, and a church for the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster]FSM[/url] as well. By the way there are people who practice all these things in modern day New England as well - why would you refuse them representation in the game?
Once you start down the slippery slope of including a few overt examples of religious belief in a game like this you're going to have to let all the rest of them in else you're going to piss somebody off. The only sane compromise is to not let ANY of it in the game at all - at the very least that will vaguely piss off everyone equally and we'll be able to move past this silly notion of "religious representation" in general.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Just remember what this thread is really about.
If religion is absent
I won't play it's that simple
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
+1
What if it was a Museum Now that was once a religious gathering place? ;)
Of course, anyone that wants to RP in it as being Active, its ok. ;D
Being technical here, but there are certain more religious sects of Taoism that absolutely do consider the Taijitu (what we tend to call the "yin-yang symbol") their primary religious symbol. And, regardless, balance is only one aspect of it's overall meaning.
Just for clarification. Doesn't really impact any argument going on here :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
If it's as "absent" in CoT as it was in CoH we'll both be fine.
If that somehow keeps you or anyone else from playing CoT that'll be your issue, not mine.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
No actually I was not happy with the way if was handled in COH
It really offended me
but back then I was different.
Now, No.
I'm not going to play a game that's openly hostile to religion
and as I said there can be no avoiding the subject
Religion WILL be mocked in this game
That's fine, because it's realistic,
But only if it's also portrayed positively to provide balance and realism.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
If CoT has/does "this" I won't play it.
I simply hate the premise of the question. Any one aspect has to be measured against a backdrop to understand its intent, purpose, execution, style, and purpose. Anpreemptive complaints without such context sounds like whining to get your way
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And I can always count on JayBezz to dismiss any argument offhandedly without examining it's merits
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Sadly, no. A friend of mine's sister is this way. She actively avoids learning and considers curiosity and education to be sins. She once said that anything that she wants to know, she'll wait until she dies to ask about, so she can ask God directly. As you might imagine, she's rabidly anti-science, home schools her kids, and refuses to even entertain the thought that learning and asking questions might be beneficial.
Sadly if you're going to equate the overall amount of "religious representation" in a game to a commentary on just how positively and/or negatively the makers of that game view all religion in general then I think you're going to need to be prepared for continued disappointment in the years to come from any MMO.
I suspect that you're the type of person who would probably be offended to see a Satanic temple or a church to the FSM in a game like this just because those aren't representations of the "right" kind of religion and it would never even dawn on you that your insistence on getting "your" way here allowed everyone else to get "their" way too.
Sometimes it makes far more sense, in every possible way, to deny everyone equally than to let only some people have what they want at the expense of others.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Assuming an absence of #1, I'd expect a number of the others to show up, although not exclusively. As examples:
#2 - I'd expect there to be corrupt religious leaders as villains. (Plenty of those in comics) But I'd also expect good, virtuous ones as well. You may have Cardinal Riche or Minister Malice as villains, but you also have Father O'Keene from St Michael's or Rabbi Goldman who are staunch allies against supernatural evil.
#3 - Given the sheer number of real world religions, any fictional religion is going to resemble one in some aspects. I agree that steering clear of blatant parodies (unless that's an important plot point) is a good idea.
#4 - Again, I would expect some of these to exist, as they do in real life, but I'd also expect intelligent ones.
#5 - Being very influential on Western culture, I'd expect that Bible stories would be referenced regularly, religiously or otherwise. A huge number of cultural references derive from the Bible's text (prodigal sons, pillars of salt, fruit of the poisoned tree, etc, etc, etc)
#6 - Depends on the character. Throwing it in ad hoc wouldn't make sense. If the character's backstory supported their opinion, then it would. Likewise if their backstory supported their being approving of religion it would make sense, whereas if it was ad hoc, a random complimentary comment wouldn't make sense either.
Basically, not having a one-sided viewpoint, from any direction, would be good.
CoH also had several cross symbols, but other religious icons would have been nice, too.
Lothic as usual you make a lot of assumptions about me that are simply unfounded.
Remember this list:
There will be missions based on religious ideas
There will be players whose toons have religious themes
There will be villains who are religious figures.
There will be evil cults like the Circle of Thorns, or the Deep Ones (I dunno)
There will be graveyards that look like Christian graveyards
and a lot of them will be crawling with undead monsters
There will be aliens (which has religious significance to a lot of people)
There will be a LOT of magic
I wasn't complaining about those things being in the game
but I have said that they need to be balanced.
In COH the only representation of real world religions that you saw were in graveyards and player made content.
That was wrong because because it presents a negative view of religion as something either evil or dead or as a weird personality trait of a few looneys
I'm not just talking about MY religion
In fact the only reason why My religion even comes up is because this game is supposed to be set in a world very much like the real world.
You insist I'm going to be disappointed by any mmo but I know your wrong there.
Dungeons & Dragons does an excelent Job of presenting religion.
Take a hint from them.
They show a wide variety of alignments and religions and they aren't overbearing about any of it.
The church of the silver flame and the followers of sovereign host are both very prominent and there are other religions that are visible but not as important to the life of the city. The 2 dominant religions are for the most part presented as respectful rivals, each seeing itself as the true religion. And since they're the dominant religions there are corrupt officials in their organizations, but they're both a source of healing and comfort to the people of the city, and also a source of power to adventurers.
I was also perfectly happy with the portrayal of a variety of religions in Age of Wushu. Where I played a Buddhist monk who trained in the Shaolin temple.
In fact in that game you couldn't learn certain fighting styles without following the associated religion. I was cool with that because it was Realistic.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Paladin does actually have a point. CoH was very sparse for religious iconography, even in a generic sense. I'd not call it anti-religious, but with the only main religious elements being enemy groups (Luddites, Mu, Banished Pantheon, etc) it can be viewed as anti-religious less than just secular.
I rather wished they had a cathedral, or Mosques, or Synagogues in CoH, personally. The beauty of flying up to those buttresses...
For Paladin, I would actually point to our Kickstarter video, where we actually features a full gothic Cathedral. That was not accidental. It is unrealistic to have a city with no religious institutions. That does not mean we will be promoting any faith, be it Christian, islam, Judaism, Wiccan, Satanism, Buddhism, Hindu, or Pastafarianism only attempting to be accurate in the inclusion of it within a secular city.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
It would certainly have religious significance to the Raelians. And I seem to recall the Pope saying something about aliens recently, too.
The Pope said that believing in aliens does not automatically contradict Catholic teaching.
Some other Christians do have a problem reconciling themselves to the idea.
Fundamentalists in particular see something sinister in the idea.
As I pointed out on another thread, there was a time when saying you believed in intelligent life on other planets would cause most Christians (in America at least) to assume you were an atheist.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Thank you Doctor Tyche
and Hail Beard
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Yep, that was it.
Or just a heretic. In at least one instance in the past it led to the person professing a belief in there being other worlds (with associated people on them) being burned at the stake.
Your list is based on FICTIONAL representations of religion in a FICTIONAL game. You're asking for more REAL WORLD religious ideas/symbols in a game to "balance it out". That's almost the very definition of insanity. For God's sake (see what I did there?) let's keep real world nonsense out of the fictional game's nonsense shall we?
One more time the idea that including more real world religious content will somehow "balance out" whatever perceived "abuses" the rest of the game will inflict on the good name of religion is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong]not even wrong[/url]. But OK, I'm willing to give it a try just for giggles and laughs: I'm calling to see more Satanist temples and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boko_Haram]Boko Haram[/url] strongholds in CoT - I'm sure that'll solve every player's issue with this because it's agreed those are legitimate representations of real world religious groups. Shouldn't that be enough to solve your problem here?
Dungeons and Dragons was a pen-n-paper game created some 40+ years ago in an age where the standard arithmetic calculator cost hundreds of dollars and Pong was barely a working computer game. To use it as an example for how to handle religion in a modern computerized MMO is a stretch at best. Besides given how often religious fundamentalists have attacked D&D for "being the work of the Devil" and whatnot it's extremely funny to see it offered up as a "good" use of religion in games in general.
I'm glad you have no problem with accepting a game's pseudo-religious backstory. That doesn't mean I have to accept a game where the religious content is based on some other person's real world representations (instead of fictional interpretations) of it. And trust me: if CoT didn't nail its version of "real world religiosity" the exact way you'd want it you'd scream bloody murder for the game "forcing" you to accept some kind of perceived evil you would never tolerate in real life.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Incidentally, for the chest symbols we are looking into unicode, which means the religious unicode symbols will be included by default if we do use unicode.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
CoH properly kept religious symbolism to an absolute minimum in order to keep real world hatred and bigotry from spilling into the fictional game world in the form of excess griefing and/or spamming. Will you be adding strip clubs, abortion clinics and human trafficking dens to the game as well because afterall it would be "unrealistic" for those places to be absent? Sometimes as a responsible game creator you have to draw the line where it makes the most sense even if it's less than "realistic" that way.
I can appreciate the gothic splendor of a cathedral as much as anyone and I can even buy the argument that it would be reasonable to see one or two of them in a New England city. But be very careful how far you let little "nuggets" of religious symbolism into this game because this is definitely a case where having "unrealistic" secularism is going to serve you much better public relations wise than having players bickering at you about which religions are "more important" to be represented than others.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Incidentally nothing would keep you from putting proper limits on something like that as responsible game creators either. Just saying...
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I don't like having ridiculous grind for stuff. I mean, it's typical MMO practice to have loot in drop tables, but when desirable loot is held by a difficult boss and drops less than one percent of the time, the game becomes a chore. I've been playing Diablo 3 since it launched and ran a level 25 times that day for one item in a set of required items. The enemy who held the loot has a very small spawn chance and even smaller chance to drop the item.
It's just not worth it to me, and if a game keeps a significant amount of it's content behind things like this, I'm out.
Also, excessive "exclusive" content. Warframe does events that last a week or so that grant rewards that rarely, if ever, reappear. Most of us are employed, so it's not unreasonable to assume that we may be busy during the entire event's run. Kinda uncool.
Indeed, like 0FD5, very much not going to be included.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
It's funny but I didn't know off-hand that the swastika was one of the unicode symbols but after you pointed it out it really doesn't surprise me in the least. That's exactly why things like this must be taken into account. The proverbial slippery slope when it comes to these things is incredibly steep and incredibly slick.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
[center][img]https://i.imgur.com/1pmBHQH.jpg[/img][/center][br]
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia]Hagia Sophia[/url], İstanbul. It was originally a church, then it was converted into a mosque, and now it serves as a museum. It retains religious significance, but it's no longer the central place of worship it once was.
I wouldn't be opposed to something similar in Titan City, but there are certainly reasons to disagree.
What about the church of... THE METAL?
(RAWK!)
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
The plan is to create a whitelist, of unicode symbols we know to be safe to use. This way we can look into ways to expand it later on, perhaps different artwork or such. Start off with the basics, and grow over time.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Have a relative who is in a similar way. Cannot tolerate the concept of "wrong". A direct quote is "There is no reason for anyone to be wrong, what it right is always so *obvious*". Said relative does not enjoy fiction, for example, because there is always someone in it who is wrong about something, which is upsetting.
I guess writing a fictional story where everyone is always right about everything would be an interesting authorial challenge but hardly one that I'd like to attempt.
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team[/color]
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And despite the senible reclassifcation as a "museum" it still serves as a sticking point between modern Christians and Muslims about what its ultimate future should be. Old grudges die hard and such...
Quote from the wiki page you cited:
Do we really want this kind of nonsense (or even a fictional representation of it) in CoT?
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I was thinking something along the lines of: [url=http://www.independent.com.mt/articles/2015-02-23/newspaper-lifestyleculture/St-John-s-Co-Cathedral-Museum-to-usher-in-a-new-era-6736131074]link[/url]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ikSSXuh.jpg[/img]
maybe more stained glass windows to show how well UE4 can make the lighting look. :)
I think Assassin's Creed, whatever the latest one is... took 3 years on one of those types of buildings. :P
Hmm... i guess you might be right. :{
And nothing of value was lost ...
I've always wanted to see someone do pointed arch gothic architecture soaring "cathedral" with flying buttresses as the basic design for ... a shopping mall. And rather than doing it as a cruciform plan design (ie. linear), instead do it as a big circular structure with a central park/plaza in the middle of it. Alternatively, the center of the circle could have a cruciform cross in it so as to make the whole thing look like the astronomical symbol for Earth (or the [url=http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/sto.gamepedia.com/5/53/EarthSpacedockFromMap.png]old Earth Space Dock[/url] from Star Trek Online).
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Earth_symbol.svg/240px-Earth_symbol.svg.png[/img]
You could still do stained glass as the upper windows, but have it all be advertising and product placement themed images instead. Build it in steel, glass and poured concrete. Shopping would be on the ground floor and the 2nd level up from ground. The "catacombs" under ground level would be all the utilities and "steam tunnels" stuff.
Essentially a "modern gothic" architecture done up as a Palace of Commerce. Make the whole thing the size of a modern day football stadium as far as building perimeter and parking goes.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That is an awesome idea, Red. I'd shop there.
People who will be offended by some churches as background architecture will likely be as offended by magic. If the developers avoid promoting one religion as the true one, and from what I have heard until now they will avoid it, there is not much that should offend anyone. I am not a christian and even I think churches belong into the landscape of the city.
I think not, but the presence of such a building doesn't necessarily imply the need for the portrayal of such animosity in the game. Of course nothing could stop players from debating any religious influences they might perceive as a result of such buildings and how they're treated in the game world.
I guess it boils down to whether the game should be as politically neutral as possible to avoid conflict, or if the game should be inclusive of religious symbolism in spite of those with sensitive opinions. The debate falls on the age old spectrum of political correctness versus free speech. Frankly, I'm not really interested in debating it, but I respect your reasoning, and I trust MWM to use good judgment (no pun intended).
This question has in my mind already been settled.
I'm content with what Doctor Tyche has said.
But the controversy still rages so I'll weigh in again.
In the Book "Objectivism, the Philosophy of Ayn Rand" Leonard Peikoff described an experience
where he complained to Ayn Rand, that the main character in "Atlas Shrugged" was unrealistic,
and set an impossible standard, that made Leonard feel inadequate.
He explained that on a Romantic Evening John Galt did everything with style and perfection
but when Leonard was on a date in real life he had problems that Jon Galt never would
He fumbled with the cork in the wine bottle, he had awkward silences, and said things he wished he hadn't.
Ayn Rand explained to him that all of that might happen to John Galt also
But she left stuff like that out of the book because it wasn't wasn't important.
And it would have taken away from the picture she was trying to create.
In real life we ignore the insignificant
In art we eliminate it.
What would we be eliminating here? and why?
We absolutely can't include everything, so we make choices.
The choices we make in our art send a message whether we intend it or not.
Leaving out something that Should be there says Either:
we don't have the resources to include it,
(not the case)
we just didn't realize it should be there.
(we're not that ignorant)
OR we just don't want it there
(We're against it, We would eliminate it from the real world if we could)
The Devs will always have to be careful about what they include.
It's been repeatedly pointed out, that no matter what you do someone will be offended
The goal is not to make something so bland that no one can take offense
but to make something that offends as few people as possible
while still presenting what we want to see.
We want a game that feels real enough for us to immerse ourselves into
where there are endless possibilities
What I'm really hoping to see is the kind of reality we see in most media.
A world that's not perfect but that's PG-13 or R at worst.
And there's no need to think that religion is a "slippery slope" as Lothic keeps saying
The Devs have already made a firm and reasonable decision not to include Nazis
The same kind of resolve can be applied to other criminal and hate groups
even if they try to pass themselves off as a religion.
I don't expect to see the Westboro Baptist Church
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Why do otherwise sane and rational people turn evil? [url=http://www.spinnyverse.com/index.php?id=149]They read Ayn Rand novels[/url].
True story.
Even better yet, it's comic book TRUTH ... so you know it must be real!
Prize please ...
/em a "gimmie" hand
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Hmm...
Being somewhat masochistic and deeply fond of religious discussion, I'd like to weigh in on the possibility/unreasonableness of including religious iconography in Titan City.
I would very much like to see as many religious buildings as is practical. Each building should have the appropriate NPCs and those NPCs should provide missions and/or clues and leads that become missions. Naturally those missions should reflect some of the concerns of the particular institution.
For example,
A two hundred year old Catholic Cathedral with a Monsignor or Bishop, a couple Priests, a Deacon, and a couple Nuns.
A Synagogue with a Rabbi Elder, a couple junior Rabbis, and a couple Acolytes.
A Mosque with an Imam, a couple Elders, and some students.
A Satanic Black House with a Magister or Magistra, a couple priests/priestesses, perhaps even a Witch/Warlock or two.
A random Protestant Church, maybe call it "Independent Congregation of Titan City".
A Buddhist Temple with an Abbot, a couple Monks, and maybe a couple Priests/Nuns.
A Hindu Temple with a Brahmin, some Priests/Priestesses, and a teacher or two.
An Animist Shrine of some kind, possibly a small house-like structure on top a boulder or tree stump. This should not have any attendants, but perhaps a talking squirrel or badger that lives under the boulder/stump and only responds with recognizable language to someone who has first run a couple dozen missions with an ecological aspect.
Each place should have all of the appropriate architecture and decor. The NPCs should represent an ethically positive aspect of each religion and the associated missions should be geared toward defense against various groups prone to anti-religious violence. None of the religious institutions should have missions associated with anti-government operations nor should they be primarily anarchist in their focus. Let the fictional NPC enemy groups handle all the anarchist/criminal/violent anti-social content. As long as each religion is presented in a positive light with legal/socially acceptable mission associations, it shouldn't create more conflict than could be normally found in response to ordinary game mechanics. For me, the existence of commonplace religious institutions each with a concern for public welfare would add an extra layer of realism.
Additionally, from time to time leads/clues should have a religious dimension with a clear moral implication that puts the religion in a good light. In another thread I suggested a Muslim shopkeeper who quoted peaceful passages from the Qu'ran and provided a lead/clue to a terrorist cell/group/plot. Perhaps a Christian florist concerned with neighborhood anarchists, a Priest/Priestess in the Black House who spoke of compassionate humanism and gave missions/leads/clues to an underground group that practiced human sacrifice. A Buddhist grocer could offer missions/leads/clues to a group of evil Naga or Oni.
It's not a request or a demand. It might be completely impractical. That's okay. I'm just saying it would be nice, especially if done in a positive way that demonstrated the benefits claimed by each religion.
Although, with the full alignment system in consideration, perhaps each institution should have an even number of good/bad officials each with their own agenda?
Not to mention things like Magic shops with Wiccan owners, craft businesses run by Shinto priests/priestesses, so forth and so on.
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A well thought out idea Greyhawk.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
I had planned to stay out of this discussion, but since I find it steering into disturbing territory, I have to speak up.
I think Lothic has the right of it. Best to keep the whole religious thing to a minimum. However, if MWM is going to speak up in favour of including many religious organisations and NPCs, then I have to point to a key line in Grey's proposal that I would think is essential:
I would find portraying all religious institutions as only forces for good staffed by only good people much more unrealistic and offensive than not including them at all. If you're going to have all of these in the game because "they are part of the real world" then each needs to span the range of alignment, just like in the real world.
That of course opens up the floodgates for people who ascribe to one religion or another to be offended, which takes us right back to why Lothic has the right idea.
[EDIT: changed 'structures' to 'organisations', which is what I meant. I have no problem with buildings.]
Spurn all ye kindle.
Personally, I'd rather have any civilian organization, like a church, portrayed as strictly neutral/good. If we insist that they can be interacted with, then I would have them divorced from alignment and faction. ANY overtly positive or negative portrayal is certain to cause strife, particularly if there is any depth to it. Let all religious sites be filled with light and peace and Leave Them Alone.
Politics and Religion are pure unstable isotopes, guaranteed to burn everyone.
Be Well!
Fireheart
If "realism" is the main guideline I'd be very surprised to see something like the Washington National Cathedral in New England. Something akin to the Old South Meeting House is what I'd expect to see. Otherwise the Lakewood Church might be more probable than a full-blown cathedral. If equal representation is the goal it'd certainly make for a very busy city, since something as grand as a neo-Gothic cathedral for one religion ought to mean something more than a house on a street corner with a minaret on top for the others. If having neo-Gothic architecture is the goal then, as Redlynne pointed out, there's no requirement for the structure to have any religious significance.
- - - - -
[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
I saw this today on Cracked.com
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-reasons-being-offended-doesnt-matter-anymore/
It included a link to this, which is less relevant, but not irrelevant.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19922_5-prejudices-that-video-games-cant-seem-to-get-over.html
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
It should be noted that the National Cathedral is not the nations largest. Indeed, the US is home to the second largest cathedral in the world, Cathedral of Saint John the Divine in NYC.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Okay I'm a bit late to this but I'll reply:
With 1), I'd have no problem with including elements of religion in the open world for the sake of realism, but the trouble with putting religious buildings around is that for one thing you'd need to represent more than just denominations of Christianity in order to be fair and balanced, so you'd need a Catholic chapel and maybe cathedral, a protestant church, a methodist church, maybe a Greek or Russian orthodox church, a Southern Baptist and/or predominantly black gospel church, as well as a synagogue, a mosque, a Hindu shrine, a Buddhist temple, a Hare Krishnan temple, and other religious locations because if you leave most of those out, people will ask why the other religions are represented and not that particular one? Then you have the fact that if they are of note and interactive locations, if you have priests and rabbis, imams, monks etc as civilian NPCs, if an event happens, how would people react to them being killed and their place of worship destroyed? How would you feel if villains could burn or ransack churches or temples as part of some mission? That would likely be too controversial for the devs to allow to happen, which means people would instead wonder why only the religious buildings survive being wrecked and robbed in big events, which would be unrealistic.
The trouble with representing the clergy and other types of priesthood is that if you show them at all, the only way to avoid bias representation is to show both good and bad examples. This takes time and has to (ie should be) done organically as part of some storyline arc or event. And combined with the churches, all this religious representation will feel like overkill, it will have the opposite effect of representing people's real-world views if they get tired of having religion everywhere when they're playing a superhero game.
It may be that devs wished to represent certain extremist views and fringe groups but was bound not to actually make members of the real life religion villains, so they invented a fictional equivalent. I see nothing wrong with this as long as it is handled carefully, because clumsy writing would turn it into a strawman version of the real-life equivalent, while some people would call it a parody of not merely the extremists but the entire spectrum of the religion those extremists are a part of, for instance in another thread, you suggested a regressive and anti-scientific version of Puritans like the Amish, but some would see that as a parody of the Amish themselves, and similar religious groups. I suggested a modern day Spanish Inquisition, but you said some people would see that as a parody of elements of Catholicism. We all know real life Amish don't want to blow up Apple and most sane Catholics find the Inquisition reprehensible, but some people would still feel uncomfortable. The only way to avoid that would be to include non-psychotic Amish and Catholics for the sake of equal representation, but the problem remains that you'd need to do that naturally to avoid preaching, and if it's done too naturally some people would miss it and see only the negative representation.
Were there any examples of that in CoH?
I see no reason to forbid any villains from having a religion, same as with heroes. But I would also prefer that such characters didn't make their religion the whole theme and sole purpose of their actions, thus avoiding incidents like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF8mF3FVN0c
and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut7JlPeGNyM
The result of those things would be a character who has some ability or talents and wears an outfit to fight crime but also happens to be Catholic/Jewish/whatever, and this is sometimes reflected in their dialogue but isn't screamed or preached at you from the get-go. That's the way to handle it, IMO. The same should apply to any villain who has a religion, but this would mean you have a villain who sometimes spouts religious quotes for no real reason, ie the reason is he happens to be religious, and presumably thinks God is on his side (otherwise he'd be in jail, right?)
Of course, if you have a character who is meant to be a religious fanatic or has some Raputin-type antivillain philosophy which means religion IS partly the point of the character, then this should be treated with awareness in the background (and it should be clear they don't represent all religious views, only their own and the ones in their head).
Any examples of this from CoH?
I would suggest that just as some religious characters (that is, characters who happen to have religions, not who try to represent them at every opportunity) use dialogue to reveal their personal beliefs, and this would be the best way to handle it, then atheist, agnostic, rationalistic etc characters should not be forbidden to express this in their own dialogue, and if they are actively a dick about it, I would put this down to characterization. If they were rude about any subject matter, I would take this as characterization and, even if I got bored hearing the same thing, I wouldn't take offense to it. Likewise, if they kept trying to convert me or push their own religion, I wouldn't be offended, even if I got tired of them as a character. In fact, I would rather deal with NPCs and dialogue I don't necessarily like or agree with than hear the same thing all the time, since it's fun to be challenged and see opposing POV, as long as they're not dull ones. Isn't that partly the whole appeal of playing redside (besides blowing shit up)?
The only thing that would be a game-breaker for me would be complete lack of variety in this regard, or if the whole game ie the devs took religious beliefs for granted and assumed I (that is, my toon) shared them. Fortunately, I see little risk of either.
Lastly, one reason I can imagine they don't normally put religious symbols among the insignia choices in the costume converters of games like this is that they're open to misuse rather than use. You might not like what you wish for if you see very few people using them to create religiously inspired heroes but instead loads of toons running around called Jeezus Freek, Pope on a Rope or Captain Westboro, F12 line: "Down With This Sort of Thing." (or maybe "We'll do it live. Fuck it, we'll do it live! I'll write it and we'll do it live! Fuckin' thing sucks!")
And that's enough internet for today, but to play us out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVF_jpHclEU
"TRUST ME."
Simplest thing to do is to have "multiple doors" for the specific building, which are then "key coded" to specific Alignment Requirements in order to enter those doors. That way you can segregate the "good father" from the "bad brother" so that PCs entering the building don't see both NPCs at the same time. This then creates the design/story space necessary to tell more than one kind of story regarding the institution ... the "good" side, the "neutral" side and the "evil" side ... and then base the decision about which story is an appropriate one for your PC upon the Alignment axes values for your PC.
So rather than putting the contacts in completely different zones, you instead put the different contacts within the same building but behind different "locked" doors that only allow PCs of specific Alignment parameters to pass through.
Note that such a design/story structure would even make it possible for the respective stories to allow one "side" to triumph over the other, depending on how the respective stories are written. So the "good father" story arc could ultimately result in the expulsion of the "bad brother" in the organization, in effect removing the possibility of the PC ever "switching sides" and playing the "bad brother" arc as well. Likewise, the "bad brother" story arc could ultimately result in the downfall and removal of the "good father" in the organization, likewise removing the possibility of the PC ever "switching sides" to play the "good father" arc later on. Note that I'm relying on the notion of using Phasing Tech similar to what was done in Praetoria with how completing certain Missions in a specific way would permanently remove Contact NPCs from play [i]for your PC[/i].
Furthermore, the beauty of such a design/story philosophy is that not every "angle" of an institution needs to be made available when the building "launches" into the game. Such additions could be retrofitted onto the setting at a later time in future releases. In other words, so long as the Developers don't paint themselves into a corner, it should be possible (eventually) to play All Sides of a particular institution.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Gluke, You asked me for examples of what I Would find offensive,
Not just what I found offensive in COH.
So if I listed things that didn't happen in COH, that's fine, I wasn't talking about COH.
As for the 2 examples of silly religious themed characters.
I found both of them silly but not offensive.
When I first started playing COH I made a toon named Church Crusader
Because the names Crusader and Last Crusader were taken.
I played him all the way up to 50 but deleted him when shields were added to the game
When I remade him, with a shield, I found that Last Crusader was available.
Finally as I've said above I really don't have a problem with any of these things being in the game,
so long as they're balanced by a sufficiently positive view of religion somewhere else in the game.
It doesn't even have to be part of any story to satisfy me, though that would be cool.
I think I should point out that Methodists and Southern Baptists are both Protestant
(as are most churches, because Protestant includes all churches that aren't Catholic or Eastern Orthodox)
and you really can't tell them apart by looking at them.
Though a black church would make sense, because you can identify them by sight.
A lot of churches scattered around the city don't even need to be identified, by denomination.
For all we know a nondescript building with a steeple could belong to any Protestant denomination,
or even a Church of Scientology (which isn't Christian, in case you don't know).
I don't know how many SOUTHERN Baptists we should expect to see in New England
but personally I wouldn't expect many.
I would like to have the option to revived, after a defeat,
in a church or graveyard instead of just a hospital.
In Dungeons & Dragons online, there are characters called Spirit binders throughout the city
and if you ask one of them to help you, then you'll be raised where he is,
until you ask a different one. Something like that would be nifty.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I have to agree, CInnder. Portraying religions as an unalloyed good is just as unrealistic (and offensive) as portraying them as completely bad. If they are going to be included (not just as buildings and locations, but as contacts and plot elements), then a realistic mixture needs to be maintained.
If it was up to me, which thankfully it isnt, i'd make sure missions MWM makes dont include any religion.
But, still allow SOME elements in UGC arcs. This would need more scrutiny, as far as using an religious institution as enamy base for an indoor mission.. or just limiting them to lite inclusions in UGC, for things like talking to NPC Contacts located there Only.
+1
I am of the mindset that any and all religions should be completely avoided for otherwise just your just opening that lion's cage door and the lion WILL bite you when he gets out at some point...
there are scores and scores of stories that can be told without having to introduce religion into the mix. the moment you do...that's the moment you will get nailed for not portraying something 'correctly' or you put X religion in a bad light.
...and nothing says fervor better than religious fervor.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Paragon City had neither churches nor gas stations.
[b][i]Coincidence ...???[/i][/b]
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I don't think that it's sensible to remove religion from the game. The setting is in the US, which is predominately Christian (73%) with the second largest group being unaffiliated (atheist, agnostic at 16%). Then there's the comic books. Even ignoring the "gods" from various Pantheons, many characters have religious affiliations, pray, attend church, and some have even interacted with a representation of God at some point: Marvel's One Above All and DC's the Presence. It'd be stranger to not have a church here and there.
While I'd love to see a superhero mmo that had heaven and hell at war and not try to do some cop out of "we want to appease everyone so we'll say it's all here at once" CoT is probably not the best superhero mmo to take these big steps. Really, they should be the mmo that plays it safe for the most part.
Now that said, we need some great church buildings. Buildings with crosses and gargoyles and all that imagery to take screenshots at!
gargoyles Cool
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I'm not even dabbling my toe into this one...
Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...
Thread derailed.
:)
Yes. We need buildings with gargoyles.
If they put churches in then I want to see Buddhist temples, too. And Hindu ones. I also want to be able to start my own religion.
"TRUST ME."
Hey a Buddhist temple would be the perfect base of operations for a kung fu hero
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
A buddhist or shinto temple actually would fit into the territory of the five dragons.
I met more than one person in CoH who's hero/villain's backstory was that they were the head of their own religion.
So, no problem there :).
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Agreed. Put it in your bio. After that, it's all just [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality]Cult of Personality[/url] stuff.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I think they should take that step. Maybe not right away but after the game is popular enough to get away with this sort of thing. It'd be cool to get some Ghost Rider or Spawn style story lines.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMcQdRLgVpMwXi_3yTCN5iA/videos
Just as a historical side-note, this kind of thing also brought about the demise of Underdog. A completely harmless and innocent cartoon character. When his powers were nearly exhausted, or he had been beaten up badly by the villain he could give himself a little boost.
"The secret compartment in my ring I fill
with an Underdog super-energy pill!"
(He also only spoke in rhymes ::shrug::)
This was in the mid-late 60's and a big parent's group raised a stink about "encouraging drug use."
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
*headbangs*
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Lothic something I forgot to mention before
I was never talking about the Dungeons & Dragons Pen and Paper game at all.
I was talking about Dungeons & Dragons Online the MMO which is more recent than COH.
Dungeons and Dragons may have been the target of the misguided 1980s "Satanic Panic"
but they weathered that storm quite well and continue to be one of the top RPGs on the market
My comment only address your claim that I would be disappointed by any MMOs handling of religion. Which I knew was not true, so I mentioned 2 games that I knew had handled it to my satisfaction.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Actually Dungeons and Dragons kind of profited from those accusations. It was free publicity for them and silly enough to not be believed by most of the target audience. I am willing to bet that quite a lot of teenagers picked it up to shock their parents.
Well anyone can do that, dude. I want ALL OTHER PLAYERS to have to worship me.
Acutally, while this began as a joke, I wonder if this could be do-able for a villain under the Conquerer path: to actually have themselves declared a priest/chief priest of their own religion, either a genuine cult worshipping a real demon or god you can make a pact with/get fed to, or just a being that exists only in words or the imagination like real-life gods (and let's not start that debate again, but you all know what I mean) or to just be sham to make make money out of believers (like many examples, biggest being Scientology)?
"TRUST ME."
You're talking about a PBVoE Emote. Everyone within X radius of your PC will do {insert emote here} in your presence.
/bow
/worship
/dance
/camera
/yougetheidea
Set it up as a Temp Power (because nothing lasts forever...) and then key the "right" to either obtain and/or keep the Temp Power to some sort of accomplishment (that needs to persist).
Want all other Players in the game to /worship you?
Take over ALL of the Control Points in the entire city ... and hold onto them (good luck with that!).
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Lots of private schools banned d&d because of those stories too
My friend's mother gathered all of his D&D books and burned them.
funny....my parents actively asked me if I would be interested in playing and offered to take me to the hobby shop where there was a group that played every Saturday and Sunday.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Because it means you're less likely doing drugs and drinking and they'd know where you are!
probably...heh. although, my parents were pretty open minded across the board. they also believed that it helped stimulate the ole noodle (math/writing/imagination/etc)...versus just sitting around watchin the boob-tube or some such. heck, I haven't watched "TV" for over 20 years now. commericals? what's a commercial? :p hehe
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Me and my two buddies were an odd trio. Back in high school in the 80's (yes, I'm old) we played sports but weren't jocks, read comics and played D&D but weren't ridiculed for it, had girlfriends, and were kind of wild and partied a lot (too much).
I guess nobody ever explained the steriotypes to us :P.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
The stereotypes didn't apply in the 80s that's what I loved so much about that time.
I graduated in 86.
I played several PnP RPGs and read a lot of comic books.
I did a lot of nerdy stuff like Art, kung fu and Academic Bowl,
I wore a tie to school every day
(even though it was a public school with hardly any dress code)
but I was real popular.
Everyone in school new my name.
A lot of other kids started wearing ties after I did.
It was Hip to be square.
I only got bullied by one guy and he was a dangerous thug that bullied everyone
until he quit school and went to prison.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
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