Let's talk about what we'd like to see in the form of pre-order bonuses. These would need to be offered for free to Kickstarter participants who donated $50.00 or more, since they are receiving the game for free. The reason I'm suggesting them, when there was already a kickstarter, is to entice the people who didn't get in on the KS.
In addition, I would suggest selling additional "head start bonuses," similar to what was offered on the Kick-starter, on the website until the game launches (or perhaps until it goes Gold; whatever). Why limit the donation time to the KS window?
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This would be nice. I only found out about this a few weeks ago and missed the chance to contribute to the Kickstarter. That said, I would donate with or without perks/compensation.. but perks would be nice.
SWTOR has something similar to what you mentioned, a "starter pack" that you can purchase for a character that includes a one time use XP bonus (1-3 hours), a quick travel pass (single use teleport basically) and your travel power at lvl 10 (normally lvl 15 for subs, 25 for f2p which alone made this pack an attractive purchase).
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Anything to stir up hype and notice I'm all for, but please don't limit it to pre-order, release it to the general public after an undermined time.
MMOs are all about the more the merrier
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I liked the concept they came up with in the Kickstarter to have "temporarily exclusive" digital items where certain things would only be exclusive for up to "four Issues or one year whichever is longer". I think anything that's offered in MMOs as "exclusive" should work under that model including anything offered as a "pre-order" enticement.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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What some MMO's are doing as well, is the ability to upgrade from the "normal" version to the "Collectors/Deluxe" edition at a later date without having to buy the whole game again..
That could be something to look forward to as well
I've very much a "subscribe for life" price. DCUO had one, which wasn't too bad, and I'd snap up two for me & my daughter in a heartbeat.
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I am not against a lifetime sub. However I still consider it one of the things that kept CO from getting more funds. And lifetime sub then they switched to lockbox had me feeling like they basically robbed me :p
Agreed.
Lifetime Sub, $300+, only benefits LARGE Studios.
If anything, giving out 2+ Year PrePaid plans at a discount, is more viable. ;)
From what I have heard, lifetime subscriptions/memberships are over all not a good idea when it comes to generating revenue. It's as true for gyms as it is for MMOs.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
Something I've suggested before which stops lifetime subs denying the game future money.
Have an offering which for an upfront amount of money grants you half price subs for life, paying for itself in say a tad under 2 years, but meaning that you still pay some money if you wish to subscribe, but giving the project an upfront cash injection.
With a $15/month sub with multi month discounts, you'd be looking at maybe a $150 offering instead of the $300 a standard lifetime sub would cost.
You could also offer some limited benefits if you have one of these but choose not to pay a sub at a later date.
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+1 and have a badge for it
Sounds reasonable to me.
Spurn all ye kindle.
agreed, that is something I would be willing to pick up and basically would happen if I liked the game enough.
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Do you foresee a need for an upfront cash injection, besides the Kickstarter?
... The avatar creator won't be free, so I'm assuming the answer here is yes. Any cash generated from that will likely go toward the game costs but server fees alone are greater than what was raised in KS. Kickstarter was clear that the funds there go to BUILD the game. Releasing it is another animal entirely for MWM the company.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I thought the costume creator was going to be free. Did I miss something? I thought it was part of the Kickstarter. If they received X amount of money then they'd release the avatar/costume creator before launch for people to play with to help tide them over until release......
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I am thinking that to develop a game along the lines of COH would take, at minimum, 1 million (and that is being way way way conservative with very little in the way of flash and substance)....and the kickstarter didn't break that mark. as such, I am assuming that more will be needed at some point. we also need to remember that this is a voluntary project, meaning that I would bet it's being worked on after the devs get home from their day jobs. at some point we will need dedicated full time paid devs versus voluntary part timers...which in a way is what they are at this time.
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That was my thinking too... So I wasnt expecting the 1st version of the standalone Avatar Builder to really have any of the Bells and Whistles that it might eventually have in later versions.
Where'd you see this? I definitely don't remember. Something takes over 16 months to get to even alpha stages for programming and people expect to use it for free?
It's such a fundamental part of the game's design.. that is likely giving away free eggs while waiting to sell the bird. If that is the case then it makes no sense for the company to release it before actual game launch.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
You're confusing me now. :/
I thought the Avatar Builder was going to be made free because of the HYPE it would bring. A type of Marketing Scheme. :{
Maybe you were thinking of raising additional funds with the Avatar Builder?
Thats a BAD idea, because you have to think of the Media coverage and how this will be viewed.
On the other hand, if you want to create a Donate Button inside of the Avatar Builder, thats cool.
And even have a Request a Feature Lottery (pay $20) button inside of the Avatar Builder. ;)
Only thing is, only the 1st 300 Most Liked feature requests will be implemented down the line. :)
This way, the Vets contribute and the Media doesnt look for Excuses to belittle CoT.
from my understanding they are going to be releasing the Avatar Builder prior to game release. As far as I know, it is going to be released for free as it was "paid for" during the kickstarter. I could be completely wrong though...
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Where are you getting this? "Paid for" in the kickstarter? It's not on any of the Kickstarter initial information and I've searched through the relevant updates.. still nothing. Not in stretch goals. No where does it imply that any content would be released for free. There is only mention on the boards from Tyche saying he'd LIKE TO offer the avatar creator to Kickstarter supporters.
I've been following the game monetization closely and sincerely doubt this is something I would miss.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
hence, "from my understanding"....and "I could be completely wrong". :p
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
I could have sworn I saw something that said that it was going to be free if they met a certain dollar amount goal from the Kickstarter. Perhaps we could get a Dev to chime in on this?
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
From the Kickstarter:
" $50 reward
1,308 backers
Home Sweet Home - This includes a full copy of the game via digital download, a month of VIP subscription, and advanced account activation during the release weekend giving you a headstart on public play + All previous rewards."
By "full copy of the game" I take it to mean that includes the final version of the game, including the costume creator, when they're done. I'm personally expecting (and whether or not I have any right to expect this is a different question) that anyone included in this reward level, or anything above it, will get invited to beta test the costume creator when its ready to beta test and will get the final version when the final version of the game arrives. Everyone else who wants to beta test the costume creator might need to make a donation for all I know. If and when they do ask for more donations, I'll probably kick more money in anyway.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I'd have to look it up, but it came up before and a dev had said the idea was to make the avatar creator free and start selling costumes and such through the app as they were developed.
Honestly it would be a huge mistake to charge for the avatar creator. the only people who would pay for it, are the KS people, most of whom are already getting it with the game anyway. Make it free and it is the best advertisement ever for the game. We all have stories of people we hooked on CoH by just showing them the character creator.
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I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
+1
What this comes down to is the idea that MWM needs to monetize everything RIGHT NOW as opposed to the idea that good publicity leads to future buyers.
I think it would be a mistake to charge for the beta version of the costume creator. It would make a better publicity tool than a pay wall. Adding a DONATE button in the CC is a good idea, because it will get people jonesing for the game. Besides, there are some of us who missed out on the kickstarter and we want to contribute. Because the game and it's future are important to us
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
You basically want the Costume Creator for City of Titans to be a Freeware campaign intended to drive interest in the game under development. Providing information along the lines of "If you have enjoyed using this product and want to support us..." making it easy to donate funds to Missing Worlds Media, that's just good common sense. That way people CAN donate without being REQUIRED to do so, and they'll be able to do it through whatever channels MWM has been able to set up for the purpose ... in effect allowing them to "test drive" any sort of Billing System that MWM would eventually need to provide.
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The costume creator is functionally a demo of part of the game.
Why would you think they would charge for this? I honestly can't remember the last demo I paid for. Heck, Saints Row IV released a character creator for free before the game called Inauguration station and allowed you to save characters for use when the game was released and share with the community. There was no need to buy the game to use this....last I checked its still available on steam. Sure it was just a moderately updated version of the one in Saints Row the Third but still....free for marketing.
MwM may not have officially announced it to be free (although I do remember them doing so in a youtube video) but it has strongly implied.
The release of the costume creator by MwM is a marketing play not a monetizing one.
I fundamentally disagree with all of you. This is one module of the game at large. When they release other modules of the game they won't be free either.
I'm not talking about the "beta" but the costume creator IS a part of the final game. For many people it's a huge part of the final game. Giving that away for free is a huge mistake for three (3) major reasons.
1) MWM WILL need capital to release the game. The more of that capital they've earned the less they need borrow. Also sales are the greatest generator influence in terms of venture capital investment.
2) All development has value. Showing a devaluation of your first release without a second release already made only lowers the value of BOTH. You don't give away milk and then expect people to value the cow.
3) The costume generator is not some tiny module. This is a fundamental, proprietary piece of game tech to MWM. Many customers will use only this module long after they are not logging into the game. Why would MWM give away its potential for future sales.
I'm also in a giggle-fit to hear that the same people who were staunchly against free to play are now advocating its merits.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
from my understanding the character created would be in a beta stage...this means it is far from being complete (probably missing some costumes and such). in addition, to being Beta it would never get updated unless they bought the game. in my opinion, the CoH character creator didn't get to "Awsomesauce!" till a few issues in...and by the end it was THE best character generator (imo) on the market and it will be a long time until another games comes along and beats it.
releasing the Beta version free is a good move for a couple reasons...
1. FREE advertising, especially if it's as good at least as CoH was when it first came out. Word of mouth moves pretty durn quick on the interwebs, especially amongst the MMO crowd from what I have seen as most are in a couple at any given time. this isn't to mention that there are plenty of site out there that will do an article on it given the whole "spiritual successor" thing...again...free advertising and if they all in turn give good reviews of a Beta version...yeah...good stuff maynard!
2. if it is a Beta....that just it...it's BETA! you don't charge people to troubleshoot something you should be doing...the exception is to release it free.
Now if it is the final version, a lil muddier to say. if it was MY decision...I would release it for free. again, I am looking at the free advertisement it provides. will there be people who get it and never play the game itself...you bet...but you know that their friends are gonna ask where they got it and they in turn may choose to pick up the game. the more exposure to the public increases the chance of an actual sale. :)
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
People are allowed to change their minds with time and new information. And it doesn't necessarily mean some are completely for it, just that the alternative is completely insane and worse.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
From conversations had with the devs regarding my Kickstarter Fashionista reward, it is not a beta, it is a software release. Will there be an additional beta for this Avatar Builder's release? Likely. However the Avatar Builder is being released as a full product that will continually get patches and updates with additional functionality. One patch eventually including the Kickstarter Designs after release.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I would like to Pull in the casual iPhone gamers too. Eventually. :D
- 1st: they See the App in the App Store... and its 4.5 Stars, Plus its FREE. Curiosity gets them to download it. ;)
And they find out there's an iPAD version, which has more UI buttons to make it even easier to work in. Download In Progress. ;)
- 2nd: They Build a Costumed Character, and want to Save it, but there's only 2 FREE slots. But its says the Desktop Version has MORE Free Slots, and Other Features. Must Get It! :O Download In Progress. ;)
- 3rd: In the Desktop Version, not only does it have everything that the mobile version had, but also has a Danger Room, Test Powers - Dummy Area. And before you know it, they get antsy and want to try in on Real Foes! Full Game Download In Progress. >:)
- etc...
Trail of Cheeeeese! ;D
Buy to play. App store is not free to publish so why lose money on it? The software being used every month isn't free. The labor isn't free. And That's all before the licencing fees from Epic and other publishing fees like Microsoft, Steam, and whomever else.
If this module is released free why then can you expect those same consumers to see the value of the other content. You dictate your worth.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Since its part of the Marketing Campaign, its seen as a Marketing Expense. I think. :)
Profit never generated is not expense eligible. The fees for actual profits are. Telling someone on a shoestring budget that spending money is expense eligible is absurd.
If it don't make dollars it don't make sense.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Agreed.
Well, some distribution channels, App Store, Steam Store, might not have an easy barrier of entry.
But Eventually, once they are making money, it's a possible approach. :)
You are of course free to disagree but I honestly think you are thinking very narrow on this. Calling it a 'module' does not change the fact that is part of a complete product. Its a sample of the larger game that can be used to draw in potential consumers.
This is true but it completely ignores the future. If the only concern was to get the game released then forget it then yes more capital now is best route....but if using the CC to draw in more paying players later than they get for release then borrowing might be the better route. If using the projections gained from free downloads to get a more favorable loan (yes banks do look at these things) then free is better. A free CC demo can generate more preorders. Just looking at the games release ignores the future of the game.
If you view a potential for marketing as devaluation then I do not understand your thinking. Without a generated interest then the game fails. Those on this forum are hardly enough to sustain the game and they will need more than just word of mouth to gain enough new interest to not only generate income but provide stores to carry the product, financial institutions to loan to them ect. Marketing costs money....one way to lower that cost is to provide a demo....such as the CC. One would argue that the Character Creator being free IS monetizing it.
I don't understand this argument at all. Are you saying that people will not play (and thus not support) the game on a whole by paying a subscription but will pay for the character creator? Do you really think there is a large enough playerbase to support a costume creator program? I just don't see it.
How is asking for the CC to be free advocating Free to play?
There is no evidence to suggest that giving it away for free will market bring more "word of mouth" marketing than a paid version would. Money buys better marketing than word of mouth ever would and there's little evidence to suggest that the paid application would not garner just as much word of mouth marketing.
You want it free. You're a consumer. Understood. But it's against the principles set forth by MWM.
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In what world do you expect a company to sit pre-revenue for ages when they have every reason to actually start collecting revenue?
And where is the money for launch going to magically come from? A second crowdsourcing campaign? Look at the numbers of the first one realistically.. do you think a second campaign would do better than the first? Enough to pay for a full game studio and server equipment and licensing needed to launch a game?
Assuming they do have an "Angel Investor" prepared to invest. What are the sales? What are the projected sales? How will the investor know how soon to expect a return on their investment? These cannot be answered by a company that is not pre-revenue.
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Missing Worlds Media has no leverage without sales. Period. All of this from a never before mentioned "expectation"? Well I hate to disappoint, but that expectation is unreasonable. The devs have been working quite a while of actual hours, blood, sweat, and likely tears to get to product release and you expect that to be given away? And for what so people can "talk" about a future game that may not even exist without the money that selling the Avatar Builder would bring in.
I'm seriously surprised to hear this from the community. Do you expect MWM to be a viable company, or slave labor?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I'm kinda scratching my head.. and the more i think about this, the more confused i get.
Its like... Lets say, City of Titans was an Amusement park or Circus, and people could Enter and Ride/Watch a number of rides/shows Freely,
but when they took the show on the road with just the mobile rides, they would charge people for Just Entering the Area where the Mobile rides were or the stage where the Performers might appear later?! o.O
That Aside.. it seems like a Missed opportunity to me. The mobile road show should be trying to entice more people to come see the Real Show at HQ. ;)
Seems to me a free Avatar Builder is the perfect hook to get folks to buy the game, because you get people to invest time in creating a character that they can't actually use till they plunk down their cash for the game proper. I can think of several friends who are on the fence about this game that would probably go for the box purchase if they had a character of their own design just waiting to do something.
Spurn all ye kindle.
A free version of the CC is NOT word of mouth...its direct interaction. It being free allows for a MUCH broader coverage than a paid version would. Its why car dealers allow test drives, why grocery stores have free samples and why games have DEMOS. And by the way there is a lot of evidence that free translates into more 'word of mouth' vs a paid version.
Lets get one thing straight.....I will get the CC if its free or if it costs 80 bucks. But I am already sold on the game.....I am not the one who the free version is for. Its for those browsing the demo section of Steam, or watching upcoming game reviews on youtube and give it a try. How do you not see this?
This world...you know the one where the game has to survive beyond launch.
How much sales do you reasonable think will be generated by selling the CC? Honestly....its a glorified dress up program. It could be the best dress up program the world has ever seen but its still a small niche program that I cannot see generating much income. Certainly not enough to outweigh the marketing benefits.
Game companies use demos as a way to datamine general interest in the game. They also use things like conventions to gauge interest. With these and other methods a game company takes the information and begins talks with a financial institute....blah blah blah.... If you are trying to say that MwM needs sales to get a loan.....well the relatively small amount of sales from the CC would not sway to many lending agencies opinions...but the amount of free downloads and generated interest would sway more. How much Shark Tank do you watch to think that sales are the only way to get a loan?
Simply not true. Now before you get huffy, I am not saying that if MwM had another game released they wouldn't have more power to borrow. I am saying that sales are not the only way to get that power.
You greatly over estimate how much money the CC would bring in I think. And again, the free CC would not be so people would talk ...it would be so they could try it. Actual interaction. What you are suggesting....selling the CC... would be relying more on word of mouth than giving it away free. Remember the Avatar Builder is the GATEWAY to the actual game. Sure some love that gateway....but it is not the game MWM is selling.
Do you want 10 bucks now or 100 later. That's what is being discussed.
And I am shocked that someone thinks selling the perfect marketing tool is a good idea.
Lets just pretend this was going to be released for free to everyone.
The character creator will require a download.. so there's the raw download server.
You will likely desire to log in - that's an authentication server.
You want to have your saved designs so you can upload them into the game - that's server space and consistent backups.
There's server maintenence for all these actions.. and I'm assuming you expect MWM to continue tweaking, fine tuning and perhaps even releasing NEW content to the Avatar Builder so those are man hours.
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Where do you expect the costs for all of these to come from? From the tiny less than $700K earned from the kickstarter for a full game? Should they siphon off their actual game creation budget to give away a free avatar builder? Should the devs, rented servers, rented server space, and maintenence crew all be "volunteered"?
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And this is just to run the avatar builder module.. Not even speaking of the costs of getting a full MMORPG running. In no feasible world will this be free to everyone. I think Nate has expressed that it would possibly be free to the Kickstarter donors (I can't remember if a minimum level of donation was required or not) but that is not free to the public.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I assumed it would be a program stored on your computer. Why would I need to log in to a server just to create costumes? I also assumed you'd save those creations as a file on your computer, not a server. I think you are over thinking a simple costume creator program.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I've already confirmed from the devs that it will be patched software that will require authentication (so those with Kickstarter exclusive costumes keep them exclusive). That means it will not be a stand-alone, offline product.
Will there be the ability to do some offline functionality? I hope so. But as a module to the larger game it needs to be online.. otherwise how can you even beta test the infrastructure of how it renders in-game. How can you see what game factors effect it (things from the map server). This is before factoring in offline settings and customer service for different platforms (how is it performing on Mobile? How is it performing on Mac OSX? How is it performing on PC? Oh we better patch in a fix.. )
Crowd Control Enthusiast
This is a ridiculous argument. You talk like the CC will solve these problems when you know full well that sales from it wouldn't even scratch these issues and MwM will need alternative release capital regardless of if the Cc was free or not. The value of it being free FAR outweighs the value of it being sold.
By the way...here is an alternative way they can get an infusion of cash before release and still keep the CC free....go to 31:00 min mark in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmsNThG5JAE
They are discussing ALOT of ways to make money for release. The cash store they discuss would be negatively impacted upon if the CC was a pay to use program.
I agree that the argument is ridiculous, but do not concede my point. You've provided no logic to support your claim that
Its an unsubstatiated and irresponsible claim.
When they refer to the costume creator as a "release", that is a software release, not a "giveaway".
1) the money generated from software sales is more than the net loss given to the alternative.
2) ANY company with ZERO dollars in sales cannot rationally go up to a funder and give a projection of repayment. There is NO valuation for that company outside of selling it for parts (asset liquidation). Having sales, is a pre-requisite. It's non-optional when it comes to getting external funding.
3) You've yet neglected to even attempt to support your logic strain that implies that the additional sources of revenue would be negatively impacted by the primary source of revenue. MWM has stated multiple times that people who've spent money before are more apt to spend money with you again. That's one of the statements from Nate Downes and Chris Hare as well as the business manager here on the boards. Why would they all have this same assessment and then somehow accept your argument that not releasing for free somehow is a detriment to the secondary sales?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Are you asking me to go and find data mining based on other games use of a free demo to bolster interest vs the use of a paid demo to bolster interest in an upcoming release? If you cant draw upon the history of promotions, giveaways, demos, samples, sales, buy one get one free, coupons, test drives and a bazillion other offers that start up companies use as marketing tactics then what good will data mining do you.
How about you answer a simple question.
Is marketing free?
So you looked for something that would support your argument and decided ....I don't need to hear more right.
I never said they called it a giveaway. I said they talked about, among other things, adding the cash store in the CC release. That was the ENTIRE point to my statement. That the broader reach there is for the CC the more chance to earn based on the cash store.
How did you come to this assessment?
Contrary to Shark Tank this is just not true. They may not get favorable interest rates or may need to sell shares but funding is not only generated by sales figures. Market assessment endeavors provide projections that lending institutes use. Media coverage will also influence funding. Look at the history of the Segway. It got much of its funding by huge media buzz.
I assumed you would understand that if more people have access to the cash store more people are likely to use it and that more people will download a free program than pay for it. If you don't understand that then I dunno what to say.
Things are not as black and white as sales=sales. Nate, Chris and MwM in general is not stupid enough to think they are. This statement was in regards to why the game had a cost and was not free and it was in relation to the paid subscription service and it was in regards to the future of the game....
Because the value of the CC being used as a marketing tool outweighs the value of it being used as a revenue source. That is my argument. I draw upon the history of demo programs for games as the reason I believe this. Is it fact...no ...but neither is your assumption that a pay to own CC will solve the companies release issues...or even generate any revenue at all.
Here is more to consider. What about the negative response to what is effectively a demo of the upcoming game being sold do to the games financial situation? What if I buy the CC and the game....I have effectively paid for the same product twice. Do I get a discount when I buy the game after buying the CC? How will the media respond to this?
In any event, I have stated my position on this.
0+(Revenue-Cost) > 0+ (0-Cost)
You are attempting to input a variable of marketing cost savings but you cannot "save" on something you've never purchased. There will indeed be a cost for customer acquisition assessed to how MWM attains their customers. There will be a retention rate for those.. but you cannot calculate the "savings" on either of those costs until the cost exists.
I've worked extensively in Venture Capital for digital products and digital marketplaces. I know what I'm talking about. The company as of this point has only the revenue they collected through crowd-funding. Those funds are not enough to buy what is necessary to release the game. On this we agree.
The Avatar Builder has and will continue to have costs associated with it. On this we agree.
Is it smarter to A) add recurring expenses to your pre-revenue company who needs more revenue than what it currently already has or B) collect revenue which can lessen the revenue needed to complete the objective AND be leveraged for an influx of revenue from 3rd party investors?
IF for some reason you went with A, you still need revenue. Your suggestions have been to "do more crowd sourcing and wait (until an unspecified date) to generate sales LATER (through more volunteer labor) in the StarMart. Do you expect a second crowdfunding campaign to get MWM to the funds neccesary to release? If not (which I expect) then you are left with 3rd party investment (Venture Capital). The FIRST thing a venture capital company will ask is "What are your sales". When you come back to them with "We have zero sales" then there is no more conversation. IF they are nice (which they aren't) they may ask you the retroactive question "Why didn't you sell your first product release instead of giving it away?" at which time you as a company have no answer to except "we wanted to save money on marketing". Did you save money on marketing? Did you "save" money at all? No. Then you're left with a product hemorrhaging revenue and no "Company" to do anything about it.
For City of Titans to succeed then Missing Worlds Media must FIRST succeed. That means treating itself as a business and making decisions based on the needs of the business first and the products it sells second.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
No I am saying that the value of the marketing is greater than the value sales of the CC would generate. I have said this MANY times....you are choosing to ignore that. The cost of customer acquisition is NEVER an exact science but it can be predicted based upon market evaluations, the most simple example of this is those questionnairs you fill out sometimes.
I have seen 'Secret of My Success' with Michael J Fox so I know what I am talking about.
Those costs are there even if the CC is not released to the public at all. What we disagree on is the VALUE gained by either selling or making it free.
It is not this simple. Its not a choice of A or B. The CC is not the ONLY option for generating funding required for the release of CoT. And to top it all off I strongly disagree that selling the CC will generate much revenue at all.
You talk about the added cost of releasing the CC, servers, updates and maintenance for example. All of which need to be secured BEFORE the CC can be released. If they get to that point then there is no reason to use these costs as an argument against releasing it free. If these are already in place then you have to look towards the future in regards to its release.
You said you have venture capital experience? If you do then you know full well that sales are not the only way to get a Venture Capital Company to invest.
The biggest problem in your thinking is you treat this like a traditional product. It isn't. Its selling entertainment, like a movie. Venture Capital institutions have invested in movies for a long time and are now investing in games more and more. When they do they use a different metric than traditional products to make the decision to invest as there is not a physical product to sell at that time. The idea that Venture capitalists are unable to make this distinction is Ludacris.
But lets just say you are right (you're not) ... venture capital companies are not the only way to gain funding from a 3rd party. Simple lending agencies are a possibility (in case you don't get what I mean....local bank) for example. In Lloyd Kaufman's book 'Make you're own damn movie' he talks about how private investors should not be overlooked...even goes so far as to specifically point out dentists as a good target. How about shares?
What about the other avenues MwM has discussed to generate revenue? T-shirts, mouse pads, ect. The cash store in the CC? Advertisment collaberations with other companies like Nivida or Razor? You know the things that every game company does to ease a games release.
While this is a great Obi Wan type of statement, it ignores that right now the product is the business and cannot be separated.
A software company whose primary revenue comes from crowd-funding and selling mousepads is a merchandise company. If you expect to be funded to release your software you need to show your software sales and solid sales projections to show that the investment will be returned at a great enough profit to make the investment worth it.
If MWM's "plan" for financing their game launch is begging private investors for large sums of money with no sales history or "winning the lottery" then it is in for a reality check, and so are all of the people who wanted MWM to succeed.
The software releases will not be free. The sales in the StarMart will not be free. The other modules being developed will not be free. Missing Worlds Media is a company, not a charity. If you, as a patron, cannot get behind the this vision there are other products you can patronize.
- -
There is NO customer if you do not sell the software, thus there is NO savings in any "customer acquisition".. you're not making any money. Even giving them a storefront (access to the StarMart sales) is not a sale. It's a portal for sales. The devs have already contested that they believe that portal is more valuable with cost than it is for free. They disagree with you.
Marketing costs are not correlated to cost of goods sold UNLESS you have sales and can show cost of customer acquisition and customer retention. Because there is no customer, there is no correlation. How the module is marketed is completely separate from the cost of the module.
- -
Missing Worlds Media will have, no doubt, a myriad of products to sell, both digital and physical. But what they do NOT have is capital. They have no income. You want them to continue as a no income "company" and the only justification you give for it is a non-existent savings that has a cost. It's bad business. And when businesses fail their products suffer. This will be true about every software release from MWM and every other company that wants to thrive in the Digital Software economy. IF MWM could "afford" to lose more money there may be more options.. but they dont.
- -
You bring up loans.. Traditional banking, unsecured lines of credit require sales. Secured lines of credit require putting up assets as collatteral.. MWM has none or very little actual assets that dont depreciate within a year, and even then only as many assets as they can buy with the money they already raised.
Credit Cards.. what credit history can MWM possibly have as a company less than 2 years old? Do you expect the volunteers to use their personal credit?
That's not a hypothetical. It's happening now. If the company doesn't have any income and runs out of money for even what they're doing now to develop the game then there is no company, and thus no game. The business model speaks for itself. MWM is spending money every day that it exists.. the longer they go without sales revenue the worse their financial prospects are from cash on hand to loan potential to VC potential. ALL aspects of the financial situation get worse and there IS a finite amount of funds the company can access.
- -
This whole notion of a "free" Avatar Builder is completely out of left field and not in touch with the reality of where Missing Worlds Media is now. Until MWM has a publisher, get VC financing, or "wins the lottery" (aka until circumstances change) this is where we are.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
JayBezz,
- You want to go for the Cash Grab now, even if it turns out its 1/10th of what it could have been later?
- Did one of the MWM Devs run off to the Caribbean Islands with all the assets? ;)
- Do you see the standalone Avatar builder as a Product on its own? and Not so much a Preview of the game?
- .... edit later with more ....
if the avatar builder is free now it will be free for the duration of its existence. there are no future sales for something that is free. all the assets for a virtual studio depreciate within a year. this includes computers, servers, and other hardware. These assets have little resale value.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Would you be this hard up if we were talking about an online or magazine ad? For the game to be successful, the word has to get out there. Heck, this costume creator release may generate multiple industry publication stories... How much would similar ad space cost? I see it as an upfront marketing/advertising cost.
It is common to take ads out in preparation for a new game's release before that company has received a dime of revenue...
Apples and oranges. releasing a product for free is not equivalent to marketing. their only correlation is when it's juxtaposed against the future product releases (which won't happen without sales revenue)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
No a software company is a software company that uses mechandise for funding. And if you still cannot understand the concept of Entertainment investment then how do we continue.
They already have (crowdfunding)....and seeking private investment is not begging. Using exaggerations like 'winning the lottery' only weakens your position. You imply the only avenue for funding is Venture capital inventors and the CC being sold. These are not the only ways to get funded. I have provided other suggestion (many of which MwM have said they are considering) that are much more viable in the short term than sacrificing the marketing potential of the CC by charging for it. I have also tried to point out your mistake in thinking that this is a traditional product when it is clearly an entertainment product. Explaining that Venture Capital Institutes understand the difference and have other ways to measure the value than sales. You simply ignore this.
its always a good idea to tell someone to leave when they don't agree with you...really sets you up as an intellectual. And NO ONE is asking for them to be free. We are asking for the DEMO of the game to be free. The demo being the Avatar Creator as far as we know. If the Avatar Creator is going to be a standalone product then the potential pitfalls are greater than the potential gain (IMO) as I spoke about earlier (which you ignored).
Seriously? You're gonna quote outdated concepts from before the notion of digital goods?
And I already said that those costs you spoke of are already there...regardless of if they release the CC or not .....read that clearly...I am not saying if its free or not...I am saying if it is released AT ALL. Servers, updates and matenience is already a cost for MwM.
No....I am gonna say this again and hope you can finally understand what I am saying.
I want MwM to pursue OTHER avenues of revenue as the rewards for making the CC free outweigh the rewards of it being sold.
Please stop talking like this...the character creator...is not the ONLY option for revenue. It isn't. You say so yourself in the above quote....
First and foremost, if MwM is the personal company of the people involved in it...then yes they should be looking at personal investment. As any startup company owner does. I mean if the game is successful its not like they are not going to profit.
But that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about small business loans. They are not ideal and likely to be unwise but in a desperate situation they are an option. Small business credit is available to startups everywhere.
And how about government funding? This is a facet of the arts and as such may qualify for grants.
None of what I am saying is a surprise to the financial aspect of MwM and I am sure they are looking into all these and more I havnt thought about.
I would like to know how you know 'where we are' in terms of finances. As far as I know we are speculating here that MwM is running out of money...that they are not working on other sources of funding ect.
Regardless a financial snapshot of right now is not something you want to base decisions off of. You need to look at the bigger picture.
Where did they say this.....give me a link because I have not been able to find this statement anywhere.
MWM's kickstarter is public knowledge. The cost of the Kickstarter is percentage based (i'd have to go look to find that percentage). The licenses for Unreal and Maya are two license they've announced as well as photoshop. There is likely an option to buy the license but if MWM can't afford to buy the license then they are paying recurring subscription. There is a "monthly burn" cost for those recurring subscriptions. They have bought the domain names and web-hosting for this website that have monthly costs.. They are spending money every day.
What money have they raised after the crowdfunding? There has not been a second crowdsourcing campaign. There have been no software sales. There have been only sales of t-shirts as revenue (that comes with a cost of goods sold from whatever vendor they are using).
The longer MWM takes to have sales revenue the greater the "pre-revenue cost" there is. And without HAVING money they cannot leverage money for interest incurring accounts nor secured loans. The sooner the company becomes revenue positive (even if not profitable) the better the company's financial options are.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And what if the sales for the Costume Creator don't do anything to pull the spreadsheets into the black? Wouldn't that be a signal to potential investors that the game is probably not going to earn much, if at all?
Trying to monetize what should be seen as an advertising expense would be a disaster. You might be willing to pay for a costume demonstrator, but average Joe Fanboy will want to kick the tires first. Last time I went to the car dealership they didn't make me pay to look at a car. Car dealerships don't get those cars on the lot from manufacturers for free either
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
No. The Costume Creator does not need to bring MWM "into the black". The phrase implies that the company will be turning a profit which I have no expectation that it will turn a profit from the initial software sales.
But if it has zero sales it has no option for 3rd party funding. Zero sales is a MUCH worse problem than low sales.
If, for some reason, MWM releases a sub-par product then it has failed in its prime objective. No sugar-coated spin is going to make a bad product into a good one.
- -
Your assertion of "should be" is one i fundamentally disagree with.
The software release is not a "demonstration". If MWM wanted to give a demonstration they could do so at MUCH cheaper a cost. If MWM wanted to market their game they could do so at much cheaper a cost than what a free software release will cost.
Also, not that it matters, but a dealership model is not a direct sales model and they have fundamentally different objectives. MWM is using a direct sales model. You will not be buying City Of Titans content from anyone but Missing Worlds Media. I could go into why this matters to the cost of goods sold but I'm sure it'll be received in the same way as all accounting jargon (*see previous thread posts). But however unreceptive the audience it doesn't make it any less true.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
And it's right about now that I'm glad that JayBezz doesn't have Segev's job.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
HA!!
And Radiac.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Money may be the hottest topic on these forums, but let's keep it cool, folks. Remember that we're all in this together despite any differences in opinion.
agreed...especially since most of this all is just guess work/possibilities given we are still a long ways out from release. :)
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A few things I've noticed in this thread.
One, there is a speculation that MWM is "running out" of money. At our current burn rate, we still have well over a year left with just the KS funds, just as expected. We've actually had a slower burn rate than we anticipated when we did the Kickstarter.
Two, there are people who seem to not understand what the Avatar Builder is. It is not a standalone entity, absolute and independent of any other part of the game. It is integral with the game itself.
A better way to think of the Avatar Builder app is as the game, with features locked-off. Admittedly, when the AB is released, these other features will not be in the public build, but will be hooked in to it, so as they are finished, the AB expands accordingly. Once everything is done, if you've unlocked everything in the AB, you will have the game already. The mobile versions will not have the RPG aspects, but will still have managing features included (auction house, base builder, supergroup management, mission builder, etc)
So yes, this means the AB is "free with game purchase" because it is the game. But it means AB is not free for all because it is the game. And, if you'd recall, you *can* launch the game in a local-only mode, although you'd have no missions but the ones you made yourself, or you can play on a private server with friends missions that they have made.
Since the full game is locked only on the main server, there is no practical way we could block someone from buying the AB and doing just this, and truth is, we encourage this. I fully want to see a dynamic community of private missions, quests, and such run on independent servers out there.
Now, since we can ship it with features locked, it does mean we can ship a less expensive, AB-only release, for later unlocking. Instead of buying a full game, you then pay the difference between the AB and the full game so as to have the full MMORPG.
Any questions?
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
It still worries me. I would buy the Avatar Builder. Most of the people on these forums would buy the Avatar Builder. But we are just a tiny minority when it comes to the pool of possible consumers for this game. If you demand that "game agnostic" potential consumers pay for it, and it leaves a bad taste in their mouths, then you've just created a potential sales disaster
Since there's no way for me to "see behind the curtain", it's a little hard to understand why a smaller stand lone version of the AB wasn't considered. Does creating your own personal look have anything to do with choosing your own powers as well? And if so, why? Plus, this leaves a potential Pigg Diving nightmare scenario out there too
In my mind, I can envision a million ways this could go wrong but only a few ways it could turn out all right. Word of Mouth is just so essential in the gaming world, where any publicity is definitely NOT good publicity
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
so to be clear, the AB, which is being released prior to the games release will need to be paid for and it will be a large download as it contains the rest of the game (or at least the parts that are finished up to that point)? hrmm...as a fan of CoT I'll do it...but the casual MMO player out there? I kinda doubt it. given the unfortunate direction that MMOs have taken people will want it for free...to many folks out there claim poverty, but really, they just don't want to spend the money. as such, I suspect the only folks who will pay for this product will be the diehard fans of CoH....majority of the rest will wait for the release of the game. so, unless the AB is pretty durn awesome (and given it sounds like your gonna charge for it) don't be surprised if the reviews are not all "sun and roses."
as a side note, I suggest not putting a "donate" button in it if your going to charge for it.
like Hornet, I am a lil surprised that it wasn't set up as a separate entity unto itself...how is it gonna work for Ipad's and other devices? you have the whole game on your ipad??? man...if that is the case I seriously doubt anyone would download it given the game will eat a good chunk of the memory for most devices out there.
I dunno...but whatever. it's your world...live it. I'm just throwin popcorn from the peanut gallery here.... :p
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
i see. So the AB, for the Desktop At Least, isnt meant to draw in new types of players from other games so much? :(
Hmm. :{
Well, besides those that are prevy to CoH/V and that might be in the VO or H&V camps. ;)
What is the likelihood of Champions Online, DCUO, or Marvel Heroes players paying to get a glimpse of the AB?
a) Somewhat High
b) Moderate Interest
c) Not Likely
I honestly dont think we will get too many buys from those. :{
Honestly, the original idea was for the AB to be free with pre-purchase, as a way to experience some aspects of the game early. But, some of us felt that asking folk to pre-purchase so far out felt bad, so this was the compromise we'd come up with.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Might I propose that you possibly create a downloadable Costume Creator that is separate from the game? One that would be more limited than the one that people could pay for. One that is stored on a person's computer instead of having to access a server. This way people could play around a little bit with it to help generate some buzz for MWM. It wouldn't have to be big, just enough to tease everybody and give them a small sampling to wet their whistle with.
Or perhaps have some kind of a small Costume Creator set up on the Forums that people can hop in to and play with a little bit? Again, a little tease can go a long way.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
If we had the resources to, I'd be fine with it. But the reality is, every additional product we introduce takes away from the core game. That means money spent to support it that will not go to the game itself, money spent on servers to host it, on marketing to promote it, on technicians for technical support.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Hmm... some valid points. :)
Still, I wouldn't worry Too much about asking people to PreOrder for the Full thing, especially the ones that helped in the Kickstarter.
As long as people see Updates, mainly tech oriented, no one will demand for their money back by the games 1st release, i feel. :)
People with Think of PreOrdering as a 2nd Kickstarter. ;D
Basically the Avatar Builder is a pre-purchase of the game with only the Avatar Builder unlocked. Seems much fairer than taking full priced pre-orders for the game so long before its' release. A smart and responsible application release and people will be excited to see that their money is actually going toward the game's development.
My full support.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I know this isnt funny, but every time i read you're reply in this thread, i just want to yell "OBJECTION". ;D
Sorry, had to say that. :{
But, I still lov ya! ;)
And it does not preclude pre-orders either, only offering a part-way stage as an option.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Um...well, since you did ask...
How soon?
Just paid off two credit cards. Got money in the bank. I'm ready to go! (^_^)V
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Thanks for the info, Doc. My only question would be: given that you said you can ship the game with other features locked, is there any reason not to leverage the marketing/demo 'hook' of the AB as many people have suggested by allowing a free download of the game locked to allow access to the AB only? Then, once people are hooked by having created their characters, the only way they could unlock the playable game would be to buy it. It wouldn't have to be a separate product, so as to minimise any extra development effort required beyond simply disabling the "Enter Titan City" button on the last screen.
Spurn all ye kindle.
The "still have access to the game in offline or private server" element.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Which is why I keep pushing (elsewhere) for the devs to simply release the data needed for a character builder app, and not use their time writing and maintaining their own. And if they want to integrate builders with the game, simply provide documented APIs (file formats, REST, XML-RPC, whatever) as needed.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Thanks for the reply, but I don't quite understand. If the free download provides access only to the AB module and everything else is locked until the player actually pays for the game, what is the problem?
Spurn all ye kindle.
How do you lock it? Through an online server. If you never check with that server, you never get locked out.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
The simplest way I can think of off the top of my head would be that the free software has the "Enter world" button disabled until the player pays for the game, at which point a tiny "patch" is downloaded to enable the button.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Ehhh, The bigger problem is the Size.
I'd hesitate to download 3-4GB of data just to try the AB portion of it.
Sidenote: I actually did like (i forget which game it was) seeing a very thin download progressbar in the corner of the screen while i was still playing the game, and I could start playing after just a while. :D
I wonder how they did that. :|
Hmm.. maybe they used an LOD loading system? Lowest quality textures, lowest quality mashes downloaded 1st? :/
I'm dumb...but if it can't be locked for the Free version we are talking about...how is it going to be locked with the paid version??? I must be missing something here....
also, I will ask again...what about the IOS versions? how are they being handled....not sure I want to download an entire game just to use the AB. lotsa memory to be used just for access to the AB. :/
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According to their own kickstarter, they will be releasing an Android and IOS version of the avatar builder. It was part of their stretch goals (along with a Mac client at launch).
Color me intrigued as to how they will now do this, especially seeing as both iOS and Android are quite possibly more limited in terms of size than other games.
In effect, each platform is its own effort, its own build. So yes, this means we have four builds to make this work. Android and iOS will not have the full game integrated, but as they are independent builds, with their own people working on maintaining such, so this is not a major headache. And the mobile app will have more than just costume construction. But we knew this going in, and those have been planned for from the beginning.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Another example of "build it right in the first place!" in action.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That is good to hear. I was worried due to how you put it across originally
I was livid. Nearly Rage Quit COX.
Pre-Ordered and got Sands of Mu. Excellent starting power and still viable for end game content. Then it was given away free. Preordered CoV. Got the Archtype Soldier/Widow/ect. with an additional free power. F2P players got the free power later.....
Please do not marginalize the incentive for kick starters. I didn't know about the Kick starter campaign, so I missed that. Id be happy to pre-order. I would like something special for placing my faith in something only read about on a forum and seen videos of. What ever that special thing is, please do not give it away for free. Ever. Please do not make it an in game accomplishment. If you do, don't make it equal or close to equal to what I earned in the Pre-order.
Some CoX players had the "I Win Button". That was a real ability that killed everything on the server. It was a dev power given to certain players with an understanding that it would never be used, but awesome to have.
Like a movie I saw with an armored Lamborghini on the 53rd floor of a building, locked up, never driven, just so someone can say they have it.
Paying to have content early is a pretty common digital business move....
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Avatar by MikeNovember
So Doctor Tyche said earlier " you can just buy the AB module and pay the difference later for the actual game later if desired". Well one question that no one has asked is, how much would you have to pay for the AB module itself, cause if it is.. say $15 for the module then yeah that would be pretty crazy, but it were around $5 then I'd say a lot more people would be willing to cough it up if the reviews were good.
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