I'm not talking about the game's alignment system here
In my view the thing that separates heroes from vigilantes is killing.
I'll admit I'm more cool with Wolverine than with Punisher because he has an animal side that makes him go crazy. For him, it's more of a weakness (like his kryptonite) than an evil choice.
Plus he's part of a group that often keeps him on a leash. The Punisher on the other hand kills purely by choice.
Now the reason I'm starting this thread is because I stumbled across something online about the Punisher. Did you know that as of March 26, 2013 his official body count was 48,502.
http://www.comicvine.com/punisher/4005-1525/forums/castle-has-killed-48502-people-622604/
That's terrifying.
He's killed more people than any real serial killer in history
and none of the criminals he's killed had anywhere near as many victims.
I know he's upset about losing his family and all but the dude need help.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Vigilante definition - a member of a self appointed group that performs law enforcement functions without government approval and oversight.
Nothing about killing
Imagine how many people the typical WWII bombardier killed assuming they flew at least a few dozen bombing missions. I'm not trying to equate real life armed forces personnel as heroes, villains or anything else - just pointing out that there have been people in real life who have technically "pushed the button" to kill thousands of people in a context where it wasn't considered "murder" in the strictest sense.
At any rate it's actually kind of amazing there were people out there who spent the time and effort to tally up the kill count of a fictional comic book character over the years. One has to wonder how many innocent people Superman killed while fighting Zod in the middle of Metropolis in the latest Superman movie. Vigilantes like the Punisher might kill people "on purpose" but that doesn't mean supposed heroes can't rack up impressive kill counts on their own.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Batman's considered a classic "Vigilante" and he usually has a pretty strict code AGAINST killing.
Takes all kinds... *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Sounds like you're taking into account CoH's deffinition of Vigilante alignment which was wrong on so many levels, and I had asked for them to change the name before it went live.
Spider-Man is a hero. Spider-Man is also a known vigilante.
Also, don't take that number to heart. It includes war time enemies and doesn't include the fact that some of those deaths wouldn't count because of how time wonky things are in comics. He's still a vietnam vet when that would put him in it between 1965 - 1974 (figuring he was there at least a year before US pulled out).
He wasn't 18 during that time either...so let's go early 20s. He'd be in his 60's now. He has no powers. Just a normal well armed well trained man. He likely wouldn't even be in the game anymore at this point if not for wonky time.
It should have been clear from the Opening Post that I am Not using the standard definition of the word.
I'm using the word in a non standard, but commonly used, way, to talk about a certain type of fictional character and nothing else.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I think the clear point here is that regardless of anything else you can't strictly define a hero, vigilante, villain or rogue on the basis of whether they kill other people or not. It'd be pretty easy to come up with examples of all of these that both kill on purpose and don't.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think some people tend to look at things in complete black and white as well. If you are good you should never do harm to a single living being ever, period. If you are evil you should always try to kill everything that even looks in your general direction. It doesn't always work that way unfortunately. There will be times when for the greater good you have to "cull the population" so to speak. Not all times will a villain be out to kill, sometimes they just want revenge or their own form of justice.
A vigilante is not a typical "hero" in the sense that he is white. He is a hero in the sense that he is off white, dirty white, cream colored, eggshell, whatever color of white but not white you want to place them in. They still have a heroic code that they live by. Do not kill innocent, good people. Guilty, bad people on the other hand........well........
Vigilantes are needed because if there weren't any then sometimes things wouldn't get taken care of. Villains can still be bad while still staying within the limits of the laws. That makes them untouchable by the proper authorities and those that follow the law to the nth degree. Vigilantes on the other hand can see where justice needs to be served even though the villain followed all the laws. Sometimes laws aren't perfect.
A vigilante is willing to do whatever it takes to make sure something wrong doesn't happen again. Sometimes that includes killing if it absolutely requires it. If somebody kept killing innocent people, getting caught, thrown in jail, escaping, killing more innocent people, getting caught, thrown in jail, escaping, killing even more innocent people...........you see where that is going, eventually somebody needs to do something to stop that cycle. Obviously following the law wasn't doing it, so.......
Vigilantes want what goody-two-shoes heroes want, they are just more flexible in the ways they are willing to accomplish that goal.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Wait, that still has Spidey as a vigilante and he doesn't kill regardless of good or evil person. Vigilante is anyone who takes the law into their own hands without being part of the government.
Of course there's generally laws in place for helping out those in need. Good Samaritan laws that should actually protect Spidey, because he's saving people/stopping crime when he can. He tends to patrol more than he tends to actively investigate, though when he does investigate, yes, he starts trespassing.
As far as I'm aware, technically all costumed do gooders not employed or directly affiliated with law enforcement, be it local, national, federal or international, are considered Vigilantes.
I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.
Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
It should have been clear from the Opening Post that I am Not using the standard definition of the word.
I'm using the word in a non standard, but commonly used, way, to talk about a certain type of fictional character and nothing else.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I think he meant the Vigilante in City of Heroes. He should have said Anti-Heros like Punisher are Villains for the more common terminology.
The Anti-heros serve a role in our culture. Those that want to end the problem by removing it. Those who have no problem with the Death penalty. Who just want the cycle to end. It was a big drive during the 90's, but soon it became clear that those types aren't Heroes thus the label of Anti-hero.
-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Then I would suggest that you come up with a different word than vigilante, because you're using the word incorrectly
Lay your hands on me
While I'm bleeding dry
Break on through blue skies
And take it high
Yes, technically everyone who fights crime and is not a member of a civil or governmental agency is a vigilante. Vigilantes tend to tread the thin line of what is considered law already and more often than not cross that line and actually break laws to serve a perceived justice. Vigilantes, including pretty much all heroes will have some problems with some of the less open minded people in Titan City. I know there are some things in Lore touching on this subject and it may leverage into the choices you will make when playing.
As for the Punisher and any other anti-hero that kills (Wolverine anyone?), his entire story is based on killing bad guys and he's been doing it in almost every issue he's been in since 1975.
[color=#ff0000]Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer[/color]
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No I'm using as it's commonly used by comics fans in casual conversations and debates among themselves about comic book morality.
Honestly this is the first time I've ever used the word in this way without being understood, and I've been engaging in these conversations for more than 30 years.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
We kinda do understand. It's just not my understanding of the word and the genre.
We could always go to an online dictionary/wikipedia if you think it'll help ...
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
No that would just give the standard definition which isn't what I meant at all
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I think the problem here is that Paladin knows what he wants to say, but there isn't a convenient term for 'Heroes That Kill People'. So he chooses a close analogue, 'Vigilante', but others are objecting to his word-choice, rather than trying to deal with the subject.
What is it that separates 'Heroes That Kill People' from 'Villains'? Particularly if the body-count goes above 'a few'? A person goes on a rampage through a vicious gang of drug-dealing human-trafficking scum and 'arrests' hundreds of thugs. If we stipulate that most of them Died as a result, can we legitimately call the justice-seeker a 'hero'?
Be Well!
Fireheart
I understand what you mean paladin. vigilante = antihero / dark hero...a couple examples being Punisher and Shadowhawk. they were judge, jury and executioner when facing off against badguys. they typically hit folks that normal law enforcement can't or wont touch...but this was in general and not the over all rule.
the problem with these characters is that once they get popular with the public they will generally never change their ways. as such, their body count will be through the roff, especially if they have been around for years and years. I have never been over fond of vigilante types as it would seem that at some point the killing spree they are on would put them in the crosshairs of the normal hero.
in addition, where is the boundry that makes them cross from being vigilante's to becoming villains? is there such a mark? or is it all purely in the eye of the beholder? how many have to die (whether they deserved to or not) before the vigilante's are viewed as being villains?
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Ahh, i remember ShadowHawk...
[img=300x430]http://i.imgur.com/Ojx4rRS.jpg[/img]
Hmm, i remember buying the 1st 8 or so issues, and stopped after that. :(
For Punisher, I think many realize he is a hero in the sense that he's taking on the bad guys. However his methods are obviously terrible. At least to some. Think on it. How many jokes have people made that Batman should've killed the Joker, when the police and other authorities have had ample opportunities too, but they still try to blame Batman for Joker being around and killing people, and if Batman did do it, they wouldn't think "He finally did it" they'd think "Batman has gone rogue"
Though, I think Punisher is the type who would've been stopped by other heroes, him being around once confronted by Captain America or Spider-Man just amazes me. :p
agreed, Brand X. Punisher should have been stopped ages ago by the various other heroes out there. given his methods it just seems a little off that the other heroes would not have taken him down yet, especially since he is not actually superpowered in anyway...just highly skilled. I personally view the Punisher as a badguy...his body count is waaay to high for my tastes to be anything but.....and if WP occupied a world with him, he's target #1 of baddies to take down...barring world destruction.
unfortunately, because the masses love to root for bloody "hero"...that guy who has no compunction about killing. we have to many examples of such vigilante types who became popular because of it...as such, real heroes will never take them down in the comics. to bad really...I think that would make those particular titles much more compelling...how does a vigilante face off against a hero....when the vigilante is soooo used to killing his targets and is now facing off against a good guy who just won't leave him alone....does he kill him? if so, what happens then.... oh yeah..that's a story arc I could get into...if done right.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Really? I wasn't aware of the idea in comics that all heroes would leave an anti-hero/vigilante that is killing villains or bad criminals alone. Hell I wrote that my vigilantes in one of the RP threads would usually have some heroes and police after them for the most part (Note: I said [b] some [/b] heroes would likely pursue and try to subdue vigilantes. I imagine other heroes might understand there point of view and leave them alone as long as they don't kill any innocents. Same thing with the populace and the police force).
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
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When I see him, he always comes off as strong as Captain America. Now if he stayed to a city of his own and not say New York, but then other heroes maybe keep Punisher for the cops to take down?
Well, the serum that transformed Bruce into the HULK came from Rogers right?
So.... lets HOPE ROGERS doesnt allow himself to ALSO get ANGRY... cause he might also turn into a 'ROIDED ROGERS! ;D
Almost as strong as Hulk.
Hulk's serum came from what little Bruce knew of the original perfected serum. :p
ohh.. So, even though it was an un-perfect serum, it still saved Bruce from dying from the Gamma radiation exposure, but it also perverted the wanted result of a semi buff super soldier. I think. :/
It was so much easier back when Bruce just got blasted with gamma rays
I hate retconning.
I mean I do it myself
you wouldn't believe how many versions of Paladin I've made
But when they take something simple and make it super complicated,
40 years after the fact
It's annoying.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Indirectly, this thread has hit precisely why we have the three-pronged alignment axis system.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Is that new canon? I thought hulk transformation came from being too close to a nuclear test.
But dude ...
Awe forget it I've done this before.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
On an earlier note. Captain America VS Punisher. [img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk109/DRDOOMSDAY-360/marvel%20universe/Punisher/PunisherVsCaptainAmerica2.jpg[/img]
-------------------------------------------
Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I think Hulk still got blasted with gamma rays, but I believe (in the movies) he was working for the military now, when the accident happened, in creating a super soldier.
As for Punisher and Cap. They come from different times. If Cap had come home, he'd been praised a hero no matter that war is war and bad things happened over there. Punisher came home to be spit on.
Then mob takes out his family and nothing is really done about it. The problem with Frank in a superpowered world is he wouldn't still be roaming around. If he was like Darkhawk, who crippled them but didn't kill, I think he might be, but Frank went after those who killed his family then kept on going. Personally, I think if he stayed in Spidey's city, he'd have been stopped multiple times over.
Banner was testing a form of the Super Soldier serum, the originals were all lost after Captain America was made. With Cap they used Vita-rays. Banner wanted to try Gamma-rays because he thought it would yield better results.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Those victims kind of stretch the definition of 'people'.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/magazine/how-a-mexican-drug-cartel-makes-its-billions.html?_r=0
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/15/world/mexico-drug-war-essay/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/feb/13/drugsandalcohol.colombia
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2013/12/cocaine_trafficking_horrors_users_are_complicit_in_the_atrocities_of_the.html
http://www.thesite.org/drink-and-drugs/drugs-trade/whats-wrong-with-the-drugs-trade-9800.html
http://www.thejournal.ie/drug-trade-map-1949981-Feb2015/
And last but not least: http://www.the-culture-counter.com/a-punishing-world-the-punisher-the-slavers/
... ;) So does anyone who wears a skintight silver suit to fight crime with their bare hands. Fortunately, superheroes do not exist in the real world.
I am against capital punishment in real life, but Punisher is my second favourite superhero. Comic books need a character like him to counterpoint superheroes.
"TRUST ME."
If he'd thought of sting rays he might have had something.
It wasn't until this issue of Daredevil (http://marvel.wikia.com/Daredevil_Vol_1_196) that I ever thought of Wolverine killing anyone purposefully. Did it change how I thought about him? Yes. Did it matter in the overall scheme of things? Not really. Characters like Punisher, Moon Knight and Wolverine are definitely a needed counterpoint to the Captain Americas and Supermans of the world. Just think if Batman wasn't so against guns. He is just one loose marble away from ninja assassin-ing the entire underworld of Gotham. The one underlying theme that makes the anti-hero still a hero is that they are self-sacrificing for the greater good and they believe fiercely in what they think is right.
P.S. How many people has Deadpool killed?
[color=#ff0000]Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
....so it is ok to have "hero's" being self appointed judge, jury and executioners...
I am against such "heroes", for they are not heroes at all and are really no better than the criminals they are killing. that they target only badguys while they go about their killing is not a shield they can hide behind and should be held accountable for their actions. despite how we feel, murder is still murder...whether the victim is some innocent civilian or some uber corrupt druglord.
could there be instances where killing a criminal is the only course of action? sure, but it depends on the situation and in most cases this decision should not be made on the street at the moment by an unsanctioned vigilante. that is why there is a court system in place, flawed as it is...it works and it should be used. no one is above the law and as such, those that violate the law flagrantly should be held accountable.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
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Welcome to SMASH street
Don't drive me into a rage Mr. McGee, you wouldn't like how I handle
If this is to be a comic book MMO, there should be room for knockoffs of every character written about in the game.
This is actually a big part of what I was talking about when I said that action heroes (a title that includes superheroes, vigilantes and a wide variety of others) know a lot that we can't know in real life.
After 48,502. kills have we ever seen a story where the Punisher found out that one of the people he killed was actually innocent?
I doubt we have or ever will.
If we did, it would ruin the character for most of the fans.
It might even cause the Punisher to change his attitude and actions.
If it happened and he went on acting like it didn't happen then who would still see him as a hero?
But killing that many people without ever making a mistake suggests an inhuman ability to identify guilty and innocent people
Like most Action heroes the Punisher represents God. He is the final judge.
When I ask for an inhuman level of certainty about the moral rightness of my action in the game,
Im not asking for any more than most action heroes have,
even this guy who everyone keeps saying doesn't have any powers.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I guess it boils down to this: The Punisher (and any hero/vigilante/anti-hero/villain) is inherently psychotic. Whether they are sociopaths, egomaniacs, dissociative, schizoid, etc. or all of the above, every one of them is driven by a desire to use their gifts to do what they deem right, no matter what anyone else thinks while dressing in outfits that separate them from society as a whole and hide their true identities. The superhero archetype (by that I mean all characters in the genre) is inherently what the human condition thinks to do, but does not or can not do. Action against perceived injustice is above and beyond society norms is what makes them exciting and entertaining.
[color=#ff0000]Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
Or you could just say
Heroes do what we fantasize about doing
It's a lot simpler
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
It may be simpler, but brevity, clarity, and simplicity often leads to inaccuracy.
As always, I vote big tent game!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqulYLOYXU
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMcQdRLgVpMwXi_3yTCN5iA/videos
So why not have started the thread about the aspect of the character you wanted to talk about. Kind of open end it for anything if you paint a broad stroke then try and narrow the field after the flood gates are open. Just curious as to your thought pattern on this.
Because of the conflict between Paladin and Steel Head, I've thought a lot about this subject over the last 30 years or so.
I'm not able to spill all of that out at once.
nor was it my intention for the later post to narrow the discussion
only to add to it.
I've been reading other people's posts and if this discussion continues I will probably have other things to say.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I bet Sheldon Cooper would be pleased to find that, by this definition, he is a superhero to me. :-)
Spurn all ye kindle.
That scenario has happened, although it turned out he didn't kill the innocent person in question, but he considered suicide when he suspected it was. The question of this ha sbeen used in Punisher before, and was also part of the plot of the War Zone movie.
None of these things ruined the character for me.
Dude, I'm normally willing to give you the benefit of teh doubt with your naive and bizarre reasoning and very faulty logic, but honestly: do your research before forming such sweeping opinions.
Okay, fanboy rage over.
Not many people in-universe/s see him asa hero as it is. However, some (notably cops and victims of crime) don't deny that the world is safer for decent people with him in it.
Have you ever read a Punisher comic? It's fairly clear that you do not understand the character at all, from either an in-universe or a real-life perspective.
The Punisher is fundementally a good guy, he's nothing like the Biblical portrayal of a supreme being. And, as with Superman, you are superimposing your own personal beliefs on to a character written by dozens of people, none of whom intended what you would like to believe while doing so. Your attitude is called 'deluded'.
That said, you are entitled to think or believe whatever you wish, and if imagining the character is a stand-in for a god pleases you, go ahead. Personally, as an atheist, I see him as what he is: a fictional human being who kills people who continually hurt and kill innocent people, so as to protect those innocent people. But even if I were religious, the nature of the character wouldn't change.
Yes you are. Frank Castle in all his depictions does not have an inhuman level of moral rightness of his actions, he doesn't have an inhuman anything. His actions are homicidal, but his moral rightness is a level of certainty as human any other. I'm not saying it is morally right, but he is certain of it, which is why he does what he does and how he lives with it.
"TRUST ME."
Sadly Gluke
this is the last time I will respond to anything you say.
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Gluke wins!
[b]FATALITY ...[/b]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I'm sorry you all had to see that, but this is a fanboy matter. Superman and Punisher are my favourite and second favourite superheroes, I will not see them stealth-bibled, even in theory.
Paladin, I still strongly suggest you submit your character profiles to VO or Heroes and Villains for possible inclusion, as they're still fielding proposals. I'll be doing the same.
"TRUST ME."
As I recall, Frank was working for God for a while. Didn't he die, get recruited by angels, get armed from Heaven's Armory and come back to Earth to hunt the wicked? This didn't last too long, Frank being Frank, but for that brief duration I suppose it would be fair to say that he had an inhuman ability to identify the guilty.
But I agree Gluke, Frank does not (normally) have any superhuman ability to detect bad people. He just has good intelligence gathering and the benefit of usually going up against people who are trying to shoot him. (Plus he has the same power every superhero has .. writers who can shape the universe to fit the plot )
That's the real source of his power and it IS superhuman.
If it's not then where can I get me some writers for my life?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
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You ARE the writer for your life, son. That's what many Christians seem to have problems with, and it's one among many reasons I could never be a Christian.
I think some people also have trouble with differentiating between what makes sense and is morally justifiable in fictional terms and what does either in real life terms. In real life terms, Frank would be a psychopath, even if you could still sympathize or empathize with what caused him to become the Punisher and you are very conscious and informed about the kind of people he kills. He is still a murderer.
In fictional terms, there is little doubt he is a good guy: he kills people only whose wilful actions have brought hurt, misery and trauma to others with not a shred of consideration, so they deserve to get equal treatment in the only language they really care about: lethal violence. He also does so without any hint of pretention, no cape, no colourful suit, no frills, no desire to be liked or even partly admired by anyone. He just wants to end organized crime one human per cent at a time, as much as he can, regardless.
He is thus a necessary character in the Marverse and also the one superhero (besides Superman, given how he seeks to minimize damage and often fights aspects of nature and disasters) I can really root for without any ironic awareness both of their absurd nature and the question of them doing more harm than good, since arguably most supervillains are motivated at least equally by the presence and actions of their heroic counterparts as by anything else, while with the Punisher's mob targets, you know that no matter what, they would still do what they do, since they do it for money and nothing else, to them it is simply a living they take 'pride' in to rob, extort, coerce, loanshark, intimidate, pimp, sell drugs and thus contribute not just to the addictions of users and other criminals and encourage them to commit crimes to pay for that, but also to fuel the drugs trade and even help fund the terrorist organizations for whom drugs become a viable way to fund their cause, such as the IRA, Al-Quaeda, etc.
You bear all that in mind and yes, there is no doubt the Punisher is a hero.
There's the fact that in fictional terms, it is just and rewarding to see such criminals who have what they call 'honour' and even refer to themselves as soldiers go up against an actual military campaign conducted by a REAL former soldier with real training, means and methods, and what happens? He steamrolls right over them. It deprives the mafia of every hint of glamour and pretension and shws them for the pathetic, callous and wretched thugs they truly are which, to me, is a definite plus in a superhero setting.
It's for this reason as well that I really hope the devs for this game will not neglect or under prioritize the more mundane and realistic villain content in favour of the magic, space opera, robots and crazy stuff: please give us conventional mafiosi, Sicilians,Yakuza, Russian mobs, Albanians, Mexicans, Outlaw Biker clubs, homeboys, yardies/Jamaican posses, Triads, you name it. Please don't stint on that.
EDIT: it's also a bit of a shame the original poster of this thread won't be reading, appreciating or conceding any of this, since he sulkily refuses to acknowledge my posts any more... oh well, I can only try. ;)
"TRUST ME."
I'm a Christian and I know I'm the writer of my life.
Born again, bible-pounding, faith-preaching, free evangelical Christian, to be precise.
I write my life. I am responsible for the consequences of my actions and the results of my choices.
Not a contradiction according to the Bible I read from. Just the opposite, in fact. Under the New Covenant the walk of faith is primarily a walk of personal responsibility.
I'd better stop there or I'll end up writing out an entire thesis on salvation by grace and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
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My novelty shirts: https://amzn.to/31Sld32
A story writer has a lot more control over situations, and characters than I ever could or should have.
He also has perfect knowledge of everything that's going on, and every consequence of every action.
A story writer can say all of those 40,000+ people you kille really deserved it and the world is a better place because they're gone.
Even God has expressed that he just can't do that (remember his reason for letting the wheat and tares grow together)
There is no way I can have that kind of control over my life.
Free will is Not the same thing as omnipotence.
Seriously I think my meaning should have been clear from the start
and it's kind of dishonest for you to take the argument in this direction.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I almost feel I need to point out at this point that Superheroes and comic books and games aren't real and are largely just for fun. And this is coming from someone for whom comic books had a real influence while growing up.
Yes, they are simplified and in many cases distilled representations of our perceptions of human struggles and triumphs, which can be and often is beautiful in it's own way. But, while a certain amount of seriousness and realism are necessary for it to be done well, at least as important is simple escapist fantasy. PEW, PEW, PEW. BAM! FREEM!!!
To me, this thread just seems to be crossing over into argumentation about individual personal religious beliefs, which is fine, but probably not necessary and maybe not even appropriate on a video game forum?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
+1 to Empyrean.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Yes Empyrean I think you're right.
I'm sorry I started this thread.
I won't post on it again
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Acknowledged, and I'm sorry if I sounded judgemental. I just meant living one's life according to any single source of moral code can end up with a person deferring personal responsibility for their actions, statements and decisions since they were following their interepretation of the "rules", and I've encountered this a lot in Christians of various denominations, but also Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. I'm pretty big on personal responsibility.
"TRUST ME."
I should take some blame for that, although I did stress that there is a world of difference between fictional morality and real life morality, thus a 'vigilante' could be seen as morally right in the first but not in the second, and that applies to just about all superheroes since they are shown as above the law. You can (and maybe should) reflect reality in ficiton to some extent, but there is no point trying to apply real-life morality 100% to fiction like superheroes because it defeats their whole purpose.
This was in answer to the OP's comments on Punisher (and god) and also this, that may have inspired his post: http://www.comicvine.com/punisher/4005-1525/forums/castle-has-killed-48502-people-622604/?page=2
"TRUST ME."
Not always, a story can develop naturally and end up going in a way the writer didn't originally intend.
But thye can and should leave a question like that open to the intepretation of the reader/viewer, not just preach their own opinion.
Nope, but Sodom and Gomorrah spring to mind.
I seem to recall the alignment system severely worrying you precisely because it might not afford you that level of control over your toon.
If you recall, it was you who brought up vigilantes, Punisher, God and morality with respect to all of them, and all I've done is directly address the points you raised.
"TRUST ME."
No worries Paladin. This might not have been the best choice of threads, but, it happens, I've had some stinkers.
And the fact that this didn't turn downright ugly is really a testament to our forum community.
Proud to be part of it.
Y'all rock.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I could only imagine how this thread would of panned out on say the Champions Online forums. That forum community was pretty bad and was partly the reason why I quit playing the game. The City of Heroes/Villains community kind of spoiled me that way.
You also got a lot of morons in the Wildstar community (sadly) and of course World of Warcraft's is infamously bad. You would get a lot of people who saw things in a biased version of black and white (whichever side they supported did no wrong while the other side did everything wrong) in regards to discussions about the actions of each faction on the opposite sides of the spectrum. It didn't matter that both sides pulled war crimes in say a game like Wildstar (what happened to the Aurin and the Mordesh purposedly creating a plague that drove lower class Dominion farmers insane was parts of that)....no it just mattered that it was the side you supported.
And of course these people would ruin a interesting discussion. I actually like how I can discuss things and not be blasted immediately by a ignorant idiot here.
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
what!?! NO! say it aint so!!! [I]**world crashes**[/I]
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
Just like we shouldn't judge all Muslims by the acts of a group of extremist morons, Gluke you shouldn't judge all Christians by the acts of extremism morons. Or said another way, don't let the views of others make you think all those that are in the same group have the same view.
Now back to more fun topics....
Punisher was also a Frankenstein Monster! There was a story in the Ultimate Universe where the punisher shot an innocent and he turned himself in demanding the Police Punish him. I don't know if such a story happened in the main universe or not.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
But I like judging people. It makes me feel superior.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
True but still a good idea not to judge. That goofy sidekick always seem to cause trouble at the wrong time because they are so underestimated.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
I wouldn't consider Ultimate Universe to much. If I recall, only Ultimate Spidey really did well out of the Ultimate titles, but besides that, the other titles felt like they were changed for shock and awe reasons and suffered from terrible writing.
Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch an incestuous couple? Okay. Wasp telling Captain America it's love and love is normal? That fell into bad writing :p
Is the whole concept about characters like the Punisher to be morally questionable? To inspire thought about what is accaptable for a freelance hero to do and not? He is somewhere between hero and villain, just doing what he does. It is up to us to draw the line. At least that is the way I see it.