This might have already been thought of and killed for being to complicated or whatever, but here's the idea:
Suppose your Blaster and your Defender both use basically the same ranged attack powers, like they did in CoX. Okay, but since the Blaster is supposed to be "better" at blasting, maybe they can put an extra slot into their blast powers. This definitely gives the blaster the potential to have stronger blast powers not only because of the added enhancer in that extra slot, but also because of the set bonus possibilities it creates for franken-slotting.
Another thing you could do is give different powers in a given set different maximum number of slots, or even different numbers of "comes free with the power when you take it" slots. CoX only gave us one built-in slot for each power, but you could make different powers more or less attractive in a build by changing that. Maybe one power is attractive at level 25 because it gives you THREE new slots right away, but then by level 30 it's less good and you want to respec out of it, etc.
Some powers could have fewer maximum slots, but have better inherent stats to the point that they're BETTER than a 6-slotted version, because they give you the same performance while saving you slots that you can then put elsewhere.
I feel like this becomes difficult to model and design but has a myriad of possibilities for the player at the build level of the game.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Hmmm, Could also be a way to further differentiate Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary powers--unless, as you said, it generates more complexity headaches than it solves by giving them another tweaking/balancing method in the game mechanics.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I think that this model would work *IF* (and only if) there were no "performance" differences between the primary/secondary/tertiary pools.
Controllers empathy set was weaker than the defender empathy set, and just like the defender secondaries were weaker than the blaster primaries.
Going for both routes at the same time can make it a bit more harder to balance out for the normal player. I have seen players complain about how complicated the EVE online skill trees are and how they affect your ship performance... and yes, I will admit that it IS confusing for the new player. Especially when you then start involving Links and ship roles it can make it difficult for the player to work out "which ship is best for the role".
Primary: up to 8 slots
Secondary: up to 6 slots
Tertiary: up to 4 slots
Seems simple enough, and would paradoxically make Powerset Proliferation less of a Robbing Peter To Pay Paul sort of operation, since there would be qualitative differences that are baked into the [i]structure[/i] of the potential slotting, rather than into the database entries for each Power. It ironically makes it easier to reuse coding while at the same time delivering differential results.
Me likey.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
It also has the property that it makes the Blaster have to use more slots in their blast powers in order to maximize for that, which means fewer slots to go into other stuff, in theory. That or you tend to take secondary/tertiary stuff that comes with more slots build in or just doesn't need slots period. In that sense it allows/encourages people to make their Blasters blastier and their tankers tankier by virtue of the fact that there is where you have the unique-for-your-class priveledge to go above the going rate for everyone else in the category that is most appropriate for you.
.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
This idea would likely serve to make the classifications feel even more distinguishable. And I think this is a good thing, one of the real pros of City of Heroes was that you had so diverse gameplay, depending on wich character you played.
Exactly. Take for instance almost any "proliferated" Powerset in City of Heroes where the Power went from being a Primary for one Archetype and it became a Secondary for another.
Tier 1 Super Reflexes: [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Scrapper_Defense.Super_Reflexes.Focused_Fighting]Focused Fighting[/url] (Scrapper Secondary)
[list][*]+13.875% Melee Defense for 0.75s
[*]-10.38 Confused for 0.75s
[*]+13.84% Res(Base Defense) for 0.75s[/list]
Tier 1 Super Reflexes: [url=http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/power.php?id=Tanker_Defense.Super_Reflexes.Focused_Fighting]Focused Fighting[/url] (Tanker Primary)
[list][*]+18.5% Melee Defense for 0.75s
[*]-12.975 Confused for 0.75s
[*]+17.3% Res(Base Defense) for 0.75s[/list]
The Tanker values were 4/3rds the values used for Scrappers, and that was baked into the base default values used for the exact same Powers. This meant that you couldn't used the exact same database entries. The data wasn't reusable. You had to have different "versions" of Powers for different Archetypes, which resulted in an unwieldy and difficult to reconcile structure of databasing this information on the back end. Basically, it was just messy.
Be nice to establish and design a more "reuse friendly" set of coding so as to not repeat this kind of "one off" deal for each and every Power in the entire game.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
This also has to tie into how many slots we are going to receive for all our powers. There could be some serious min/maxing done that might overpower some players over others. We also have to look at whether or not there will be Invention Enhancements that have Power Boosts in them. This could be a very tricky thing to implement. I think we will need more information and possibly beta testing to see whether or not this is a good idea or not.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
You could, for instance, give the Blaster's bread and butter blast powers a maximum of 8 total slots (so two more than what a Defender would get for that) AND an additional "built-in" slot that the blast power comes with when you first take it. So as soon as your Blaster levels up and takes Fireball, it already has 2 slots to fill, plus you have the ability to put 6 more in it over time. Whereas when the Defender would take it, they'd get it with only 1 built-in slot, and could put as many as 5 more in it over time to go up to a maximum of only 6. In this way the Blaster GETS more up front with his bread and butter blast powers, and can opt to invest more slots in them as well, if they want to. This also allows the Blaster to max out like 4 or 5 categories of enhancement in the blast power, say, damage, accuracy, recharge, AND endo cost AND whatever the secondary effect is (like chance to stun or whatever); whereas the Defender will only probably be able to get to the point of diminishing returns in like 2-3 categories or maybe just buff all of the categories but not reach diminishing returns in any of them at all.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
We might need to use smaller numbers. I have read developer statements where they said four will be the maximum number of slots a power can have.
Four? That feels stiflingly small to me.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
1 Accuracy
1 Damage
1 Endurance Reduction
1 Recharge Enhancement
1 Accuracy
1 Hold Increase
1 Endurance Reduction
1 Recharge Enhancement
1 Accuracy
1 Heal Enhancement
1 Endurance Reduction
1 Recharge Enhancement
Etc.
I don't see a big issue with it.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Well, don't forget, if I remember correctly, the slots have slots. In some cases more than one.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Wait, what?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Assuming a single damage enhancement does less than the maximum amount of enhancing that damage could be enhanced to do, then a person might want to put TWO damage enhancements in a power, which causes you to have to drop something else. And assuming that one Accuracy enhancement doesn't hard-cap your accuracy all by itself, you might also want two accuracy enhancements. Then you're left with no room to enhance recharge time or anything else at all. So it feels cramped, to me, that's all I'm saying. There will still be ways to game that system, don;t get me wrong, any system can be optimized for what it is, I just think a system where you get more than 4 slots would feel more free and offer more options.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Depends on your expectations then. I see a reasonably big problem with having too few customization options for how Powers can be Enhanced.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Crap, hold on, I'll try to find it...
Ok, here's what I meant- http://cityoftitans.com/forum/highway-danger-room
And this short thread: http://cityoftitans.com/forum/variable-augments
Augments AND Refinements of those Augments, more than one Refinement per Augment in some cases, PLUS some kind of "entire Power Set" slot too.
So we'll get WAY more mileage out of "4 slots" than CoH did.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Ohmygod, I totally forgot all about this. Thanks Empyrean.
For the record my take-away from this is that you might have 4 Augment slots and each Augment slot might have 1-3 Refinement Slots associated to it, thus giving you anywhere from 2-16 actual sockets into which you might plug various objects.
The bit where he said "swag won't drop from badguys" has me worried and excited at the same time. On the one hand it may bode well for the economy, on the other it is a change from what I'm used to, and we fear change. But as long as the game is fun and the builds are optimizable, I think it will be fine.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
While I agree with this, still leaves me think that everyone will be doing exactly what CoH did...following what's the best slotting. :p
Very few put anything else rather than 1 ACC/5 DMG int he beginning. They may have switched out 1 of the DMG for something else (usually an ACC), but that was about all they'd let their damage suffer.
Then it became 2 ACC/3 DMG/1 OTHER.
IOs changed it up a bit.
Brand X, the reason for the pre-Enhancement Dysfunction was the lack of a Diminishing Returns Curve. There was also the FACT, which I explained to Arbiter Hawk and Black Scorpion over dinner at the Spring 2012 Player Summit, that 1 Damage Enhancement equaled 1 Endurance Reduction PLUS 1 Recharge Reduction.
Foe requires 4 Brawl Hits to defeat. This means:
4 successful Hits
4x the Endurance cost
4x the Animation time
3 Recharge cycles
Adding 1 SO Damage Enhancement meant:
3 successful Hits
3x the Endurance cost
3x the Animation time
2 Recharge cycles
You just couldn't match up with that kind of performance advantage through use of Endurance Reduction or even Recharge Reduction. So 1 DMG = 1 END + 1 RCH. No wonder everyone slotted Damage first and foremost. And when there's no "downside" to just slotting more and more (and more) Damage, guess what people will do.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Yes, up to a total of 4 Augment Sockets may be assigned to a power, which improve what a power does (damage, protections, etc...). Then Augments may have anywhere from zero to 3 Refinment Sockets (which improve how a power does what it does - things like how accurate it is, the energy cost, the recharge time, and so on).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
What kinds of things do the Power Set Augments do/affect/improve?
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Power Set Augments are something that affects all the powers within the set, or in the case of Tertiary Powers, can be used for a global character effect.
And we can do all kinds of things, attack sets can get damage alteration, a recharge buff, a momentum gain buff, improved accuracy, a damage proc and so on.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I understood that. My point was more along the lines, that people keep asking for "make it so it's variable" between builds, but in no MMO have I seen that work, and that included CoH.
Even with IOs, while there was some variation, one still tended to try to hit a certain percentage of +DMG to a damage ability. You still had pretty much the same IO sets being used among all the various builds.
I don't see CoT being the MMO that changes that.
CO seems to do it a bit more than others, but that only goes so far and the game still lacks in the power use when compared to CoH (I miss having to use more than 2 attacks).
Assuming that Augments (the ones that go into a slot in a power) make the power itself more powerful, I can not think of many different types of Augments that would be able to go into a ranged, single target blast power. I mean, there's Damage, and....? If the power does chance to stun along with the damage you might have that as an Augment? Or would that type of thing be more of a Refinement?
If accuracy, Recharge, Endo cost and range are all Refinements, what does that leave for Augments? Am I going to just put 4 damage Augments in my most popular blast power, and if so, are there then different types of Damage augments to choose from? Like maybe the RARE Damage augment gives you THREE Refinement slots,the uncommon one gives 2, the common ones give only 1, and the cheapo-ubiquitous ones give zero?
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I would say that first you'd have to know more about the power itself to begin with before you decided what kind of Augments you wanted to put into it. Perhaps it has a base recharge speed that is already pretty fast. If so, then you might not want to put in a Recharge Augment. Perhaps it doesn't use that much Endurance, so no Endurance Reduction Augment. I would imagine Base Augmenting would be Accuracy, Damage, Endurance Reduction, and Recharge Rate. However, it could be Accuracy, Damage, Endurance, Hold. It just depends on the power and what all it is capable of and what the player determines are the best Augments to put into it.
Refinements will just go to make those Augments better. Perhaps improving the Accuracy even more. Maybe adding a Debuff into the Damage. Putting a proc into the Recharge to boost your Recharge even more. Etc.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Something along those lines (though maybe not exact).
This is more right than wrong. Not every attack will only do health damage and people may want to play up / build around certain aspects what those other things powers can do. And knowing what number of Refinment Sockets you will have will play a part too (See below).
Rechage, Endurance Cost, etc... are all Refinements, Augments don't improve those aspects of a power. This makes getting Augments with more Refinement Sockets more desirable but also requires some strategy when planning builds and assignment sockets around what type of Augments (that is what type with a number of Ref sockets) they plan on putting in the power.
Recharge, Endurance Reduction, etc.. are all under Refinements. If you have your generic Augment, it has no Refinement sockets and therefore you can't really make the power more efficient other than its main effect(s). Getting those Augments with Refinement Sockets is where the building really starts to get fun, if you have a power with 3 Augment Sockets, and have 1 generic Augment and 2 Augs with 1 Ref socket each, do you go for 2 Accuracy Refinements, 1 Acc and 1 En Red, or a Recharge, or...you get the idea.
There's even more to this than I get get into at this time, but suffice to say that there will be alot Refinements can do and will be desirable to get those multi-Ref-socket Augments.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Want... build planner.
If y'all could pre-release a build planner at some point like you're going to pre-release a costume designer, I'd be happy for a long, long time dinkering with costumes and builds till actual release.
Seriously. I got my look. I got my build. Lemme at the game!
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
me too! the costume builder alone would keep me entertained for days and days..."ooo....what about this idea for a look! or this! or even this! oh hell yeeaahhh...."
dunno if we will get a builder, or enough info to do paper builds just yet though (or even around the time the costume creator is released). given the information provided regarding the way powers, augments and refinements work it looks to be pretty in depth and could vary wildly depending on what augments one has.
[img]http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/whiteperegrine/84183/69278/69278_original.gif[/img]
This sounds good. So basically you'll want to get the rarer Augments that have the higher number of Refinement sockets int them BUUUUT they might not enhance the Damage as much (or the Slow or the Defense Debuff, whatever the power "does" etc). Or maybe they're just strictly better than the "less Refinement slots" kind.
But the important thing that is a somewhat new wrinkle is that the powers' Augment slots will only accept Augments, and Augments will only come in a limited variety of flavors in terms of what they do for the power. A blast that does hit point damage and Slow will be able to slot Damage Augments and Slow Augments, but no Augments in the game will actually buff Accuracy, Range, or other "parameters" of how the power works. In short, Augments only Augment what the power actually does, whereas the Refinements affect HOW the power does it, things like Recharge Time, Range, Accuracy, Endo Cost, etc. Also, no power will have any Refinement slots of its own, they will be the result of getting the right AUGMENTS (the ones that come with one or more Refinement slots built-in).
That being the case, I can see not needing more than 4 Augment slots, but BOY HOWDY do you want those Augments that have the 2-3 Refinement slots in them.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
This...so much this. I -still- play with Mids and Icon a lot, and we don't even have a game for that anymore (negotiations notwithstanding, I was still playing with those long before they started). Even if it's with early stuff, as far as builds goes, and I have to change my theoretical builds a million times as things are updated before I actually get to play...I'll take it.
For the last year, i've been busy, but before that, i would hop onto Mids Designer and do the same. ;)
For some reason, I HOPE we Dont initially make CoT soooooo complex that we really Need an Augments Designer/Planner. :/
But that could be just me. Well.. initially at least! ;D
I don't hope that we need it, but if it was given to us I'd play with it anyways...if only because it's been mentioned in other threads that a theoretical build planner may or may not be able to allow us to set things up to automatically place slots and pick powers when we level, if we would like it to happen. It would certainly make my testing experience faster, when we get to that stage. I'd totally push for cap in an attempt to break the game for them, and that would help me help them get some hard numbers for things like that.
Need and want are two different things.
Most people who played CoH never even heard of Mds. Yet the system was complex enough that it was worth using Mids to optimize and refine if you liked (which I did). YET this optimization and refinement gave you just enough of an edge to be worth it, but not enough that people who didn't use it felt slighted.
CoH really achieved a good balance in that way.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I think people have already requested some kind of Plan Builder for CoT. I hope the Devs will make one that hopefully will be released shortly after the Costume Creator, but closer to Launch of Beta testing.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
Part of me agrees, because a dev-supported tool would have better odds of being accurate. But on the other hand, it's more work for them. So another idea would be if the devs released the data tables, and licensed their use for tool development, and let the various hobbyist-devs out here work up their own tools. Competition! And the various hobbyists could support different platforms, such as web UI, phone OS, and desktop OS.
Even better if there was a standard (e.g. XML) character file format so players could easily move their data between the different tools.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
Not sure if anyone brought this up yet (I'm just replying to the OP) - but the different "tiers" of powers - Primary, Secondary and Tertiary - will ALREADY have modifiers built-in IIRC (at least form what I've read). For instance a secondary power could do 75% damage, a tertiary 50% damage or something like that. Further restricting slots would be a bit too much of a nerf I think.
IIRC the devs have said that they have no plan to make a build planner for the game - but that they would work with peeps who want to make one themselves. Though that could change as the game evolves I suppose.
Not necessarily, Interdictor.
Let's assume (for the sake of argumentative illustration) that Powers are defined in Database 1 and the "tweaking" of that information is controlled through Database 2 so as to adjust those Powers to match their Primary/Secondary/Tertiary formulations.
One of the tweaks that could be done, if Powers have a differential in Max Slots would be to also adjust how many "free" Slots those Powers begin with when taken. In City of Heroes, EVERY Power (that could be Slotted) began with a single Enhancement Slot.
So what if that assumption is no longer operative?
What if Primary Powers begin with 2 free Slots?
What if Secondary Powers begin with 1 free Slot?
What if Tertiary Powers begin with ZERO free Slots?
Pair that up with my formulation above of having a max limit of 8/6/4 Slots for Primary/Secondary/Tertiary and you've got your built in advantages for the different rankings of Powers. The Database 1 entry for how the Power(s) WORK can be kept uniform and organized, but how those Power(s) can be Enhanced and "grow" are then defined by Database 2 following the "rules" for Primary/Secondary/Tertiary so as to yield different results from re-usable data that is easier to tweak and balance broadly.
Not saying that's how MWM would [i]have to do it[/i] ... just saying that's how *I* would want to do it, structurally.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
We have camps on both sides of that fence. For those on the side of dev supported tool, the appeal is a more accurate tool that can hook into live play for when the build needs updating (after a new level is gained) to load the build from the tool. And it goes the other way too when looking at a character's build in the tool to see the current live build and the planned build.
Then there is stuff like having a badge tracker built in too. And there are more ideas for how this could plug into the Avatar Creator and some other low hanging fruit as extensions from the game.
There is the possibility for a dev tool that is open for player modification.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I never used Mids. Not even once. I preferred trial and error and multiple respecs. But I would not demand others do things this way.
It would be convenient if the game incorporated a build designer, and it would be very enjoyable for both a costume designer and a build planner to precede game release. I'm sure I would get good use out of such tools.
But I'd still use a lot of trial and error. For me experimentation and discovery is a major part of the fun. Getting it wrong, for me, is just another way of getting it right.
Yeah, I'm eccentric that way.
And Brand X, just FYI, not "everyone" slotted their powers the same way. I always slotted for improvements I wanted a particular power to have. Sometimes that meant damage, sometimes that meant leaving damage untouched but slotting to maximize a side effect such as Stun or Knockback. Enhancements were where I did my strategic planning.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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This is a good point I hadn't thought of, and the player created tools in CoH were awesome, so maybe it does make more sense for the devs to just be supportive of player created tools.
I don't think it's eccentric at all. Like I said earlier, my experience was that most of the people I played with had never even heard of Mids or build planners. I think you were more representative of the majority of players.
And I think this was common too. More common than min/maxing from what I saw.
Due to the incredible variety of powers and the presence of REAL control powers, I'll bet there were relatively less min/maxers in CoH than in most other games out there.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
If this makes you eccentric, then so am I. I'd be happy for those who like to plan if such a tool were part of the game, but I would not make use of it myself. For me, planning out a build would be like reading a summary of the key events in each chapter of a book before starting to read the book itself. In fact, there were many times in CoX where I wished I had a toggle to hide all the powers that were not yet available for a character.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Heh, beat you to the punch, Cinnder :P.
But from my experience, y'all are more representative of the majority of players in CoH, so maybe the devs should just support us weird build-actuaries in making a tool and not waste time doing it themselves--they have enough to do!
And if the CoH community is any example, it'll get done and done well without the devs having to provide anything but info.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I didn't use MIDS til late in the game (late 2010, I think). Once I did, I was very happy with it. Between mids and alpha slot, I felt like I had 3 extra slots per power in my gameplay.
IMHO all you need to do is redefine "dev supported." Instead of developing (and having to maintain) your own tool, publish some kind of interface which third-party tools can use at runtime.
For example, for the baseline information on powers available, icons, stats, etc., that could simply be a static file that exists at some known location in the game installation, would be generated from the real databases dev-side, and would get updated with everything else.
When someone needs to respec, give them the option of loading a file (dev-defined format, preferably based on XML or YAML) which would be generated by a build planner. You'll need to parse and check the data (server side!) to make sure it's not doing anything disallowed, but that's still simpler than writing the whole tool.
To look at a live build on, say, a website, just provide a URL (REST style?) which can be used to download the build data file; fan sites could then pull that in and display it or use it however they want.
Those would be great candidates for URL and/or transfer file interfaces.
This seems like more trouble than it's worth. There's always going to be some cool thing people will want to do that will require changing the tool on the devs' side of the fence. You'd have better luck shipping a libCityOfTitans.so/dll (leaving the UI and such to the third party developer), and I'm not sure what that would offer over a file format definition.
P.S. the new UE4 licensing system might allow more code/API sharing between MWM and third parties than I'm assuming here, too, which would make the library or framework options be more viable.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
That's me; always 60 seconds late!
Spurn all ye kindle.
I think we do not have to worry about something like Mids. Let me quote Warcabbit on this topic:
(Quoted from http://cityoftitans.com/forum/highway-danger-room if you want to read it in context.)