I got this Idea from a discussion that was developing on another thread.
They were talking about how Statesman was superman, and Manticore was either Batman or Green Arrow, etc.. and I thought that's fine, I'm not above rehashing ideas in my own work.
I think most people can see that Last Crusader is Duncan MaCleod, and fills the same roll in my universe as Superman or Captain America.
Steel Head was created by one of my players but he's become a major figure in my universe even though that player moved away long ago. He's The Punisher with powers.
Der Übermensch is Captain Marvel.
Doctor Wyrd is Doctor Strange
Angry Alex is the Hulk
Captain Future is Iron Man (with an origin that involves time travel)
and Paladin is Spider-man
As far as super groups go the Knights of Saint George are the Justice League/Avengers
The Young Heroes are the Teen Titans
but the Vulcan's Heroes serve a unique roll as an official unit in the Birmingham Police force.
Who are the toons in your worlds that fill roles similar to major published heroes?
How are they different from the characters they're based on and how are they similar?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Well, Perfect Perry was conceived as the 'opposite of Batman', a happy, well-adjusted, white knight type, whose powers were completely self-contained. However, thinking about my other characters, I don't think any of them are quite like any mainstream comic hero.
Starlight Saint is an 'old bastard' reborn and given another try at life, only with cosmic powers. Kitten Dreams is... an ethereal construct that finds herself alive beyond her original program and becoming more 'real' as she goes on. Black Valkyrie is a rogue valkyrie that put her own principles ahead of the role she was expected to play. Astarte Tsovinaar is the 10-thousand-plus year old channel of goddess-power.
I can see fragments and reflections of these concepts in myth, legend, and comic books, but no obvious equivalencies.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Just remember, I'm not talking so much about heroes who are perfect parallels.
I'm really not even interested in total rip offs.
But just characters who fill a similar role in the universe.
For Example Superman and Captain America each serve as the paragon for their respective universes.
They're the inspiration and example all of the other heroes try to live up to.
Last crusader fills this role in my world. His Abilities and personality are really different from Supes or Cap.
Spider-man is a young loner trying to find a way to cope with the same troubles real people face, and the responsibility of his powers only makes things more difficult. Paladin is like that, even though his abilities are totally different from Peter Parker's.
Steel Head is a murdering vigilante just like the Punisher
Etc...
So it doesn't mean you're ripping anyone off just because you're characters fit into certain universal roles.
If it meant that, there could only be one original love song in the world, and all superheroes would be rip offs.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I think it was having those in CoH that made CoH better! We need that Superman type. The Batman type. The Doctor Doom type.
Yes, and no. While it is true that sooner or later every fictional character resolves back to one of Jung's subconscious archetypes, it is important to recognize each character has unique metaphors governing how readers (or moviegoers, or gamers, etc.) respond emotionally to that character.
Captain America is an everyman superhero. His metaphors are patriotism, honesty, honor, commonality.
Superman is an elitist superhero. His metaphors are divinity, courage, service, uniqueness.
Metaphorically, Spiderman pulls from both of those. Spiderman's metaphors are commonality, service, courage, and honor.
While it is possible (as in CoH) to create characters with specific roles within a group, doing so inevitably will lessen the impact those characters have. Consider CoV. Most of the characters follow as mirror images of the CoH good guys, but Ghost Widow is not the mirror of Warwitch, the two operate from distinctly different motivations and their link to the "living" group is also profoundly different. Warwitch has chosen to linger, Ghost Widow is bound by forces she acknowledges but does not comprehend. Two dramatically different metaphors despite the surface parallels. In the case of Ghost Widow in particular, for some reason her character broke free of the mold that traps Black Scorpion, Scirocco, and even Lord Recluse. Her character's link to Arachnos, her all-consuming sociopathy, and her need to dominate provide a metaphoric depth the others never quite reach. Ghost Widow is very much an anomaly in the CoX fictional universe and it is because she is an anomaly that she is also a genuinely unique fictional character.
Comic books have long been criticized for lacking depth because so many of their central characters are bound too closely to Jungian archetypes. It takes a thoughtful reader to recognize the unique roles played by characters such as Doctor Doom, Spiderman, or Professor X. Hollywood has in many cases added depth to traditional comic book characters (Doctor Doom, for example), but in most cases they have actually removed aspects of the character's personality in order to grant more screen time to someone else.
Consider, for example, X-men. In the comics, Professor X is not a particularly deep character. He has a small, precise role and we seldom see his dark side, or even his emotional life. There are only a couple of stories where these are brought to forefront, and those are post-movie stories that probably would never have existed if the first X-men movie had not shown him in a sympathetic way. Wolverine is Wolverine, always, even though we do see a bit more personality in the movies it seems to me much of that is the result of how Hugh Jackman plays the character rather than how it is written. One of the things that annoys me about the X-men movies is how Jean Grey is almost completely stripped of personality and overshadowed by the other characters. In the comics she was one of the few characters that both evolved over time and retained a surprising level of compassion.
When it comes to heroes/villains I create ingame, I work very hard at NOT recycling or reusing metaphors. I try to make each character unique, with unique motivations and unique priorities. Dusty Enalios and Dusty Remington were both Masterminds. Dusty Enalios was a delusional megalomaniac out to conquer the world while Dusty Remington was a poor kid from the wrong side of town framed for a crime she did not commit and struggling to make her way through the Rogue Isles doing as little damage as possible. Both were "Dusty", and both were Masterminds, but I would hope people came away from interacting with each one wondering if I was sharing my game account.
There is nothing "wrong" with recycling material. I'm not intending to suggest there is. Readers, gamers, moviegoers, and so on are not stupid, however. If a writer recycles old metaphors they will see it and in most cases, they will not respond well, unless the archetype is so completely integral to their worldview that they cannot imagine experiencing a fictional world without an example of that archetype.
One of the reasons Hollywood summer blockbusters have underperformed for the past decade is that Hollywood has fallen into a consistent pattern of "recycle, reuse, add more explosions" and moviegoers have rejected this approach in overwhelming numbers.
But this is all just the opinion of one writer and critic (me, of course!). Others will disagree.
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Does that apply to Transformers 4? ;D
I'd say less Summer Blockbuster and more Summer Action Movie.
This is the part I agreed with and the only part that hinted at you possibly getting the point.
Try to go in this direction and I think you'll get it.
The rest of that stuff was just messing up yer head man.
I should also point out that I very seldom set out to create a character who was based on another specific character.
Usually these characters just fall into these roles because it suits them.
When I do set out consciously to make a toon based on some established character, I always make sure there are major changes:
I mentioned that Captain Future is Iron Man with a time travel origin. A lab accident, sent him to the future where he mastered the technology of that time and returned home. Also, he's a lab rat not a billionaire playboy.
Overmaster Vlaad is Doctor Doom but if you read his story there's very little hint of it. The main things they have noticeably in common are ruling countries, wearing armor, and being corrupted by pride.
Defender, is a patriotic hero who fought in WWII, So obviously he's Captain America, but he was just a regular soldier during WWII, and after the war grew old, until one day he was transformed by a meteor that landed on his farm. He's much more powerful than cap, but he isn't the confident symbol that Cap is, instead his main function in the stories is to argue about Politics with Last Crusader. He's a conservative and Last Crusader believes democracy is deeply flawed and we'd be better off with a king. Still they agree about more than they realize, and Last Crusader is the one filling the Captain America/Superman role.
(By the way I honestly don't think there are any liberal heroes in my world. but there are plenty of liberal villains and parallels with the real world make it clear lots of normal people are liberal)
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Some of it can just be made easier to explain when you draw from established heroes.
When describing my name sake, I often say she's a cross between Spider-Girl and X-23, because she's an extremely agile regenner teen hero. There's more to her but it's something that helps people grasp a bit of an idea.
I'm not certain what prompted this, did something I wrote imply politics?
If so, or even if not, then to be bluntly honest and probably offensive I have to say that such a clearly divided PnP would appeal to me even less than standard ones. Forcing politics into a fictional reality where one faction is good and the other evil is a very good way to eliminate half your potential customers.
J. K. Rowling does an absolutely brilliant job of it in the Harry Potter series. I can count on one hand the number of people I've met who recognized how her heroes and villains encapsulate British politics.
R. A. Heinlein handled politics terribly. Partly because over the course of his career he went from radically liberal to radically conservative. As a result, the total body of his work carries more contradictions than political campaigns do when reduced to thirty second sound bites.
As a writer and a political conservative (which I assume has been apparent) I would never be so obvious as to make my villains liberal and my heroes conservative. If I wrote a story that was politically divided (or created such a game world), I'd make sure both sides contained examples of both conservatives and liberals. The internal conflicts bouncing off the external conflicts would make for some very profound fiction.
But then, even though I am politically conservative I don't make a habit of demonizing liberals. Agree to disagree, as they say. Truth be told, I can argue the liberal viewpoint more effectively than most liberals can. I just disagree with it.
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Actually the comment wasn't directed at anyone.
It came as a result of me thinking and writing at the same time,
Then not taking time to examine it afterward (because I was getting ready to leave for church)
My thinking isn't always as clear as I wish it were.
I sometimes forget specific examples
Like, a lot of people would try to force the conservative label on Steel Head because he kills criminals,
though he does it because the justice system in a superhero world just doesn't seem to work.
There's no telling what his views might be like in a real world or what his views are on other issues.
Of course there are a Lot of people who wouldn't agree with me calling him a villain. But I do.
I also forgot that I have a villain called Rebel Yell who wants to revive the confederacy.
And finally I did remember one hero who's defiantly a liberal. Her name is gun smasher. She's super strong, bulletproof and can detect guns.
Making most of my heroes either conservative or apolitical wasn't a conscious decision I made
It's just an example of my own values creeping into my stories.
Most of my the heroes and villains are really not very political.
Earth man is the clearest example of a villain who's politics can't be glossed over. He's an Eco terrorist.
Most of my villains with political motivations are foreigners.
I have several Islamic and narco terrorists.
Of course using the words liberal and conservative in every political discussion, even when those words take on totally different meanings in different contexts, can lead to a lot of confusion when you talk about foreign characters.
For example, most people call Nazis conservative, even though they have a lot more in common with America's left than right.
So by that standard Overmaster Vlaad would be considered conservative, since he's a fascist.
Anyway, sorry I brought it up.
but it wasn't totally off topic.
We were talking about reusing old ideas in our superhero worlds and political Ideas can be included in that.
Anyone got a hero or villain based on a famous philosopher?
I bet someone does.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
No philosophers, just lots of goddesses:
Pele
Ishtar
Astarte
Inanna
Diana
Athena
Astrid
Brigid
Gaia
Hecate
so forth and so on. The various divine roles fulfilled by the feminine down through history fascinate me. Most people when they think of goddesses think of love/sex/fertility, but that is just a tiny percentage of the roles assigned to goddesses. Warrior goddesses outnumber love goddesses by a huge margin, but you'd never know it just by looking at contemporary culture.
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Nietzsche, the true superman
I have no desire to turn this entire thread into a political history lesson/debate but I did want to comment on this one point because I've seen others express the same confusion with the terminology:
Most people correctly call Nazis/fascists "conservative" because they were simply far more conservative than just about every other political denomination out there. It's a matter of proper definitions being applied properly.
Now the reason why a person might think the Nazis had anything to do with "leftism/socialism" is that they both in fact employ socialistic methods in their economic models. After all Nazis were literally self-described "National Socialists". But the major difference lies in who got the profits of these economic systems. Technically speaking socialists want to see the economy controlled by the government so that it can redistribute wealth directly towards the masses. On the other hand NATIONAL socialists want to see the economy controlled by the government so that it can redistribute wealth directly to the top party-favored owners of the means of production (land/factory owners, the proverbial 1% percenters). So while both systems employ government controlled economies as a means to an end they couldn't be more polar opposites when it comes to who benefits from the output of the respective economies.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Internet fail. ... We are talking hitler and nazis.
So reusing ideas ... Every story derives from A couple mythic archetypes...
Anyone here read Joseph Campbell's Hero with a thousand faces
For what it's worth I didn't mention the "H" word and Paladin mentioned the Nazis first in this thread. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Socialism
You have two cows. Give one to your neighbor.
Communism
You have two cows. The government takes both cows and sells you milk.
Nazism
You have two cows. The government takes both cows and shoots you.
Bureaucracy
You have two cows. The government takes both cows, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain.
Capitalism
You have two cows. Sell one and buy a bull.
[i]{seen on a T-shirt at university many years ago and remembered ever since because of the "it only hurts because it's true" humor value}[/i]
Of course, for me the real hilarity is the notion that the only way for Capitalism to "work" is by ensuring that someone (or something) else gets screwed for your own personal benefit at their expense. Funny how a lot of people don't quite make that connection, even when it's so explicitly obvious.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Must restrain self from debating history, politics, and economics ... must not take that bait ....
Okay, all better now.
Joseph Campbell accomplished for mythology what Jung accomplished for psychology, partly by drawing on Jungian archetypes and showing how mythology has always inherently understood the existence of Jung's categories and used them to explain human nature.
With Jung we stare into our dreams and see each other.
With Campbell we stare into our dreams and see ourselves.
Both men drew heavily upon Freud, the first person to approach dreams in an academic manner and the first person to write a book drawing parallels between dreams and mythology (or folk tales, or legends, etc.).
Superhero comics draw their strength from the same sources. Stan Lee, in particular, bridged the gaps between all of them by creating a series of everyman heroes cast from their normal life into heroic status by some kind of intervening event that sets them on the path to true heroism. One key difference between Stan Lee's heroes and Joseph Campbell's hero journey is that in Campbell's version the new hero must have a mentor to guide them the first few steps along the path while Stan Lee's heroes are inevitably thrown into the chaos with little or no guidance other than emotional and ethical foundations set in place by parents or guardians.
Joseph Campbell's hero is a product of destiny. Stan Lee's hero (as well as his nemesis) is in many ways a victim of destiny.
As an example of how I might tie all of this together into a character for a game like City of Titans, consider this:
I really like Spiderman. He's my favorite comic book superhero by a wide margin. In some ways, he's the only comic superhero I never stopped appreciating. So if I want to create a character based on Spiderman the first thing I do is break down the metaphors that I enjoy.
Science-based
Intelligent to the point of nerdiness
Shy around women, especially Mary Jane the object of his infatuation
Driven by guilt over the death of his uncle
Driven by duty to care for his aunt
First law of his personal honor code, "with great power comes great responsibility"
Then of course the standard hero stuff: defender of the weak, protector of innocents, compassionate for those less fortunate
Has a day job as a freelance photojournalist
Became a hero after being bitten by a radioactive spider (his spirit guide/overriding metaphor is arachnid)
Now I don't want to copy Spiderman, I just want to reuse the metaphoric foundation with a unique character
Keep the science-based origin and intellect, but drop the spider bite
Keep the guilt and duty motivations, but drop the uncle and aunt
Ignore the shyness because romance/ERP is not in the character's future
Transform "with great power comes great responsibility" into "power without service is cowardice"
Transform photojournalist into novelist (maybe science fiction novelist? romance novelist? SF romance novelist? <-- keeps the MJ allusion!)
Transform gender (because I hate staring at male computer models for hours on end)
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Mactana Latrodectus (scientific name for Black Widow spider is Araneoidea Theridiidae Latrodectus Mactans)
Mactana was born in Palamunai, Sri Lanka. She was eleven years old when a tsunami swept over her town leaving behind nothing but broken lives. Officially, her family is recorded among the missing because none of their bodies were ever found. The only surviving member of the family was Mactana's older sister Teyci who worked on a janitorial crew in Titan City cleaning the offices of the rich and powerful. Teyci was more than happy to have her sister with her, bringing her to the United States as a refugee and getting her enrolled in local schools. Mactana quickly learned English and once she had caught up with the rest of the class, also discovered she had a genuine love for science, especially chemistry. Her quick mind and command of scientific concepts earned her a full-ride four-year scholarship in the Chemistry Department at the Titan University, including a small monthly stipend that allowed her to leave the care of her sister and enter the adult world.
Unfortunately, Mactana did not fare well at the university. Her natural beauty and quiet charm quickly had her surrounded by admirers, both students and staff. Unable to deal with the sudden onslaught of so much personal attention, she withdrew inside herself. Alone in her room with nothing to occupy her brilliant mind, she began writing stories about adventure as one of Titan City's thousands of masked vigilantes. On a dare from one of her literature professors, she submitted a story to national magazine and was rewarded with check equal to twice her monthly stipend. Mactana had discovered her calling. After more than a hundred short story sales and two full novels, she dropped out of university in her junior year to devote herself to writing full-time.
One afternoon on the way to the local Speedmart to pick up some groceries she was caught in the crossfire when a convoy of chemical trucks was ambushed by Aethir Pirates. During the ambush one of the tanks ruptured, pouring a burning mix of toxic waste over her. The pain was so intense, she blacked out. She woke up several days later wrapped in bandages, but feeling perfectly normal. She tried to sit up, but the bandages were wrapped too tightly. As she struggled, her sister laid a hand on Mactana's arms, catching her completely by surprise. When her sister spoke, she could hear the familiar voice but she couldn't understand a word. A nurse came and administered a sedative, sending Mactana back to sleep.
As she slept she dreamed her mother came to her. "Be at peace, Mactana. You have been given a great gift. But remember, power without service is only cowardice."
The next time Mactana awoke she felt renewed and somehow changed. Colors were more intense. Sounds were more revealing. She knew right away her sister was in the room. She could hear two nurses down the hall, one male, one female. They were discussing problems they had working for one of the doctors who never listened to them and always complained about poorly written charts. The bandages covering her body were just as tightly wound as before, but she herself felt different. She could feel a fire burning inside her, a fire she could control. With a thought, she burned away the constricting bandages and sat upright.
Her sister screamed. The nurses came running into the room. Mactana realized she was completely naked. In addition to the bandages, she had burned away the bedding. Blushing furiously, she covered her breasts with her hands and began stammering out an apology. Her sister looked horrified. The nurses looked amused.
"Third one this week," one of the nurse's remarked casually. Her nametag said, "Hazel".
"What on earth was in that truck?" The other nurse was named "Steve".
Teyci fainted. Mactana watched her slid out of the chair and onto the floor, too embarrassed to do anything but stare.
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So then, the topic of the thread was about reusing old ideas. This little story illustrates how I do it.
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Remember with Peter it's "With great power comes ALL the responsibilty"
Think i didn't butcher a rather recent quote in Amazing Spider-Man. :)
I re-use some story ideas from various different types of superpower media and usually just try to spin it in a different way for my characters. Although for the case of my anti-hero Deluder...in his backstory I don't really elaborate on ZETA (the mad scientist organization that essentially irrevocably changed him in body and mind) because the group is pretty much a concept heard many times over
Marionette was based off a porcelain doll which I think isn't an original idea (Several of Batman's Rouge Gallery has doll based villains). Gravemire was my spin of a necromancer hero (who I could not imagine would have a nice backstory what so ever). Dread is not a original idea either, he was based off of several villains (Scarecrow especially) or anti-villains power wise. His backstory was meant to be a completely different spin on how powers like that materialize though.....
Formerly known as Bleddyn
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WCqnt88Umk]Do you want to be a hero?[/url]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/nyktoss-character-cove] My characters [/url]
No disrespect intended, but he sounds pretty propogandistic. I'm not averse to the idea of a ruthless conservationist or whatever, but there should be more to the concept that just a demonized strawman version of a political/philosophical/ethical etc stance. For example, Poison Ivy is effectvely an eco-terrorist (and it is this aspect that makes her relatively sympathetic as a villain), but she is equally known as a femme fatale. She is a character with some depth and complexity, who could even be viewed as an antivillain (it also annoys me somewhat that she is locked up in Arkham, when she is not demonstratably insane. There is no delusion or conventional irrationality in her motivation, she just cares more about her plants than she does the law or human life, for the most part. Same for Mr Freeze, at least prior to the New 52. They were both criminals, but not insane.)
Likewise, Animal Man as written by Grant Morrison was an eco-terrorist, and yet a complex character and still heroically motivated.
...and the thread was all going so well.
I have several characters I'll be submitting to CoT (and possibly VO) inspired by philosophies, but not based on actual philosophers themselves. You may not like them a lot, if they're accepted, but hopefully you'll find them interesting.
"TRUST ME."
Earth man wasn't really described and I'm sure that having his whole story reduced to his costumed name and the label eco-Terrorist might make him sound a bit like straw-man foil. But there is more to him that that.
so here is what my book "The Knights Of Saint George" says about Earth man and his group of villains:
Defenders of The Earth
The Defenders of the Earth are a group of environmentalist who wage a violent war on those whom they hold responsible for pollution.
WARNING: Don't use this villain team unless you're willing to deal with politically charged game content. If you or your players are environmentalists, please remember that it's not their motives that make these people villains it's their methods.
All of these characters, are classified as villains because they're part of a terrorist organization, but these are complicated characters, and most of them are people you could like if you got to know them. Just like superheroes they believe they have a mission, which sets them apart and justifies their actions. What makes them different is that they're not trying to protect people but “the environment”, and their targets are not criminals but law abiding citizens.
If players are tempted to side with the Defenders of the Earth, let them. The group will want volunteers to participate in clean ups, protests, and in producing and distributing literature. They publish a newsletter called Earth News. Eventually players will be asked to help attack some polluter, logger developer etc... When this happens, be sure to describe the crimes being committed, the damage being caused and the people being hurt. If the players are still on board with this, have a few more attacks take place. You can up the anti by having law enforcement or other heroes show up, to try to stop them. At some point, have them plan to destroy a whole factory, while it's operating. If the players suggest attacking when it's empty, point out that it runs 24 hours and that the people who work there know what they're doing.
Don't let this be the only thing going on in the game. Have these missions spaced out so this story can go on for a long Time.
Earth Man
Jerry Mac Arthur is an environmentalist. While meditating in the forest, he had a vision of the Earth calling out to him for help. He volunteered and was given powers to help him in his war against pollution. Earth Man is the leader of the defenders of the Earth.
Earth Man was created for my game and appeared in the 3rd issue of the second Paladin comic book series. In that book it was mentioned that he was leader of the Defenders of the Earth but none of the other team members appeared.
Solar Power
April Hightower is convinced that since her super powers can safely violate the laws of physics, every home in America should be able to do the same thing.
Whale
Whale escaped from a research facility somewhere in the Caribbean. No one knows much about him. They're not even sure if he's a mutated man or whale. He can speak English and Spanish but doesn't speak either very well. He says there are no others like him.
Geo
Jake Red-Earth discovered his power while working in an iron mine. He hated working in a mine, but his family was very poor and he didn't see any other opportunities. Long ago his family farmed and hunted on land that the mining company ruined. Now he can't even fish in the lake near his home.
Animal Girl
Amy Pritchert is an accidental runaway. When she first got her powers, she turned into a bird. Thinking she was dreaming, she flew as far and as high as she could. Then she turned into a cat and ran though a forest. Coming to a stream she turned into a fish and swam. By the time she realized she wasn't dreaming, she couldn't find her way home. Friends she met at a shelter introduced her to the Defenders of the Earth.
Amy would like to go home some day, but not right now. This new life still feels like a dream to her, and she's not ready to wake up yet.
OK so Solar Power is a bit of a straw-man but she's the group airhead.
Geo is the most sympathetic character of all. It's hard not to be on his side.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I wouldn't say any of my characters were politically motivated, at least not in the sense where it defines them as a character, but that's mainly because I'm not politically minded myself. In fact, the only character I ever had that was happened to be a fellow named Alpha Male, who had taken over Seattle and renamed it Nova Roma, setting up a form of autocracy or benevolent dictatorship, or at least, that's how people saw it. In reality, he just had Super Charisma in addition to enhanced strength and the like. Still, people were happy under his rule, with government spies from the US just disappearing because they liked it so much.
The system of government wasn't exactly like Rome, as there wasn't a form of democratic rule. Instead, to be in-charge of Nova Roma, one would have to adequately surpass Alpha Male in a series of challenges to prove that you were better than him in every respect, which none bar one (my players at the time) had accomplished. Typically, when a new challenger would come about, he would talk to them 'man to man' and use his charisma to make sure his potential successor sees the same kind of world he does, so that whoever takes over continues the dream.
Turns out, Alpha Male was one of my most successful villains.
In regards to reusing things, i guess I do that. My main is a character concept used and adapted over the last decade, I think, having been made in a very poorly written Teen Titans fan fiction.
In his current incarnation, I hoped to take the Superman dynamic and flip it around a bit. He gained his amazing powers in a traumatic event, and instead of being liberated by it, he was traumatised, and still sees a therapist. Despite having invulnerability and super strength, he's still a skinny, pale teen with zero muscle definition. He's kind of like Spiderman in the nerdy outcast sort of way, but he likes being on his own and is far from a socialite, with the addition of his powers not giving him the confidence to suddenly become awesome.
In short, as his book incarnation, he's friends with a girl who actually wants to become a superhero, and has the power to do it. The relationship between them can be defined as "What if Jimmy Olsen gains powers greater than Superman?" though, I'm sure it's been done in the golden age when Superman was, well, kind of a dick.
Other than that, i don't think I have much in that regard. I want to refrain from making to many characters until closer to the game's launch, as I'll likely be an RPer, and from past experience, I have a habit of sticking with my main.
I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.
Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
Alpha Male seems to be built on a concept that comes from old PnP games.
A character who didn't take many or any special abilities but put all of his points into his Ability scores.
This works especially well, in games like DC Heroes or Gurps,
where high stats give you a good chance to use a variety of abilities "unskilled".
In DC Heroes a high Body stat even made you bulletproof.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
[b]How do you reuse ideas?[/b]
With impunity ... and hopefully Good Taste™.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I would say that superheroes may have started out Jungian in the form of Superman, but remember he was predated by pulp fiction and radio serial characters who were typically stock character-based, not psychological or philosophical archetypes, and superheroes have drawn from both of them (Superman and more pseudo-realistic pulp characters).
I also think Superman is not an elitist character, but an everyman in that he is an ordinary guy who does what any decent ordinary person would do in a crisis if physical capability was no object. Captain America, by contrast, is not an everyman, IMO, but represents an ideal model of a person that one could become if they were willing and committed enough (and happened to be in the right place at the right time to become scientific guinea pig). In the former statement, he is therefore a model of an enlisted soldier and a walking military recruitment slogan, representing the actions of a decent ordinary person in a crisis who is also willing to give every ounce of themselves to solving the crisis. The whole concept of him as a superhero, however, depends on him being unique (and demonstrates that, unfortunately, anyone willing to do what he does is NOT an everyman/woman, they are exceptional).
But why do you say Superman represents 'divinity'?
"TRUST ME."
There are whole books that have been written on the subject of parallels between Superman and Jesus.
If you don't see Superman as representing something divine, I'd say you're not paying attention.
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Then you'd be wrong, but I was asking for Greyhawk's personal opinion. I don't see Superman in a religious context, although some parallels are there, I see him, being a science fictional character, as proof that the Bible (and all other mythological texts) is not accurate, even if there is a single creator-being in the DCU.
Actually, Superman has more similarity to ancient Greek heroic characters, being partly inspired by them. I don't recall Jesus ever physically fighting an opponent (except perhaps for the moneylenders business), and don't see Superman as taking much of a partisan theological stance, all he does is help people and combat injustice.
To me, the parallels between him and Jesus in his common depictions are pretty thin. I think Professor Xavier from X-Men has the most similarity to Jesus among superheroes.
"TRUST ME."
Oh this is gonna be fun.
Superman first of all was created by a couple of Jewish guys and they were almost certainly inspired more by Samson than Jesus, but there are still some very strong parallels. By he way. I haven't read any of the many books written on the subject. All of this is off the top of my head based on years of reading Superman. But there are a lot of these books and you might want to at least read the book jacket on one of them before you dismiss them.
1) Jor-el foretold the destruction of his people but they wouldn't listen to him and were destroyed
JUST LIKE. the Biblical prophets. I would say especially Noah, because the rocket Jor-el built is like a miniature version of the Ark.
2) Superman was sent down from the sky (heaven) by his father to use his powers to help human beings.
3) He is disguised as an ordinary man, who's primary characteristic is his mild manner.
4) He suffers all kinds of humiliation because people think very little of him. In fact the main part of his disguise is a pair of glasses. Traditionally a sign of weakness.
5) He won't reveal his true self to the woman he loves because he wants her to love him as Clark Kent.
JUST LIKE. you can never get close to God unless you accept the humble suffering Messiah.
6) His primary foe was an evil scientist at first but in the 80s, when only a few fundamentalists still rejected science, Lex Luthor was turned into a self centered billionaire.
7) Superman's main weakness is a rock from his home world
JUST LIKE. God gave his law in stone and millions of Smartass punks try to twist his words against him
They fail to have any lasting effect, just like no one has ever killed Superman with Kryptonite.
8) Superman was raised by an elderly couple that included a barren woman
JUST LIKE Issac (another Christ figure) Samson, Samuel, Mary and John the Baptist.
9) Death of Superman Superman came back
JUST LIKE I think you get it by now.
Look I'm not saying all of the comics are religious in nature, and it wont be hard to find specific books that go against the grain. Superman has had a lot of writers over the years, but the pattern is clearly there even if you can't or won't see it.
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I'm somewhat curious why you see similarities with Xavier and him to be honest.
Puny Heroes.
I think Superman's core similarity with Jesus, a similarity likely drawn more from the audience than the authors themselves, is that he is a being sent from beyond earth, with an inherent purpose to live like we do and show us the value of abstract concepts such as compassion, unity etc. through the use of miracles beyond human comprehension. The classic Marlon Brando speech is probably the chief example of this.
Otherwise, Superman's Divinity comes from effectively drawing power from something powerful and beyond comprehension, or his level of power making his oft used title "Sun God" fairly apt.
I wouldn't say Superman's death is inherently related to Jesus', since that, to me, seems like marketing tactics for the ever-so-loved period we call the 90s. Remember, Superman came back with a black suit, fire arms and a mullet.
It's hard to get around it, especially now that Judeo-Christian mythology is remarkably present in the DCU (Ya know, with the Phantom Stranger being Judas and all), but I wouldn't say Superman is an analogue for Jesus in the same way, say Aslan is, his story just has certain similarities with it.
I'm not sure I can say Professor X is similar to Jesus. The teaching aspect of his character is definitely there, but I can't help but think he'd be more appropriately compared to someone like Moses, if we're going to make such comparisons.
I do a DnD Podcast, which can be listened to here.
Additionally, I write up my sessions of a Teen Heroes game here.
Yeah, but there's been evidence to point to them doing that with all heroes. I just watched a video that showed them doing it with Spidey in the movies.
Very true and quite often its valid
A story about the struggle between good and evil is always going to have some kind of religious elements even if the author doesn't intend it, even if the author consciously tried to avoid it, and even if the author is hostile to his work being seen that way.
This is especially true when the story involves miraculous powers and mystery.
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Superman is not human.
Superman is the sole survivor of an alien race
Aliens are in many ways nothing more than a scientific mythology of divinely perfected humanity
Because he is superhuman while not human, Superman falls into the same metaphor, divinely perfected humanity
Therefore, Superman, because he is an alien, is associated with the divine.
Captain America, in counterpoint, is humanity perfected by science
He was enlisted, not an officer, making him peasant/proletariat/freeman class
Therefore, Captain America is the idealization of the everyman, he is a technoutopian perfected peasant
Unfortunately, this also makes him more fascist than libertarian, because he represents a scientific oligarchy perfecting a lesser human
Superman is what everyman strives to become but cannot because they are mortal
Captain America is what everyman strives to become realized through human innovation, the opposite of the divine
Superman is therefore, the idealized divinely appointed nobleman
Captain American is the idealized peasant
Both of them represent a technoutopian divinely appointed social order with a distinct elite and a distinct peasantry, equal in their role but still socially distinct
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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All metaphors fall apart when you examine them too closely
without exception.
the thing is you're looking too closely at the wrong part of the story.
a part that everyone else looks at the least.
Superman is an alien, and Captain America got his Abilities from an experiment
in both cases this is just an excuse to give the character his special abilities
Every character has to have an origin
Also superhero origins have to be unique so that no one could create an army of them
and the idea of mutants, who are just born with power (or the potential to develop them) had not been created then
so the writers came up with some gobbledygook (wow google spell check recognized that word) just to make the character work
What really defines the character isn't where his abilities come from but what he does with them
People aren't just what they are
People are also what they choose to be
and the part we choose is more important
Comic books are Melodrama
that means they're about action not character development.
I like melodrama
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That 'pattern' is called coincedence. I don't think any of the those parallels you listed were deliberate, except possibly the first one, and Superman still far more resembles Hercules/Herakles, as the physically invincible son of a god, than he does an ancient pacifist whose fate was to be martyred. 5 and 6 sound the most tenuous. I think it's clear you are applying your own interpretation, which is your choice, but you are imagining meanings where they were not intended -- you are comparing his love for Lois to a need for spiritual fulfilment (ie a 'relationship' with the Christian god)? I don't see it. Lois is attracted to Superman, she doesn't view him in a spiritual light. Moreover, Jesus (AFAIK) never attempted to hide his identity or motivation from the world, he was completely open about himself and his lack of respect for material gain and the local authorities. That's why he was arrested and executed. I see little similarity between that and a guy whose main distinguishing charactertistic is physical indestructability and a respect for law and order, except that they are both supposed to be really nice people.
And with connection 6 you are comparing Superman now with God? I thought Jor-El was the god, in your analogy? I see your point, but kryptonite was a plot device conceived by the radio serial writers in order to give Superman an Achilles Heel (and there's another ancient character who is a closer match than Jesus, IMO). The ten commandments, IRRC, were not supposed to be a weapon or signify a weakness, but to be the (oddly finite)instructions of god.
I'm not knocking your views, you notice a few interesting things, but I don't see Superman as a divine figure, and I don't think that is (mostly) intended to be viewed. To me, his home and his arch enemy all represent science and the future, not the ancient past.
"TRUST ME."
'Divinely perfected?' Do you mean evolved or technologically advanced? I don't see anything 'divine' about the concept of alien life, even fictional humanoid ones who can fly and move planets. I also don't agree with your description of aliens as 'scientific mythology'. Superhero fiction can be considered a modern mythology, certainly but that is because it is fiction, not because it is (vaguely and hokey) scientific. Real aliens, of course, are speculation but a near certainty, and completely unrelated to their representation in comic books and the pulp fiction they evolved from.
I see your point on Captain America, though.
"TRUST ME."
I'd find a stronger parallel with Cassandra prophesizing the fall of Troy, myself.
As as for Kal-El's rocket, I think you'd have a stronger case with Moses and his boat of reeds than Noah, TMP. The rocket carried only a single being, not 2 (or 7 pairs) of every living creature. Much more similar to Moses's baby basket than Noah's ark.
If coming back from the dead makes you Jesus, then Jean Grey's the most Jesus-ish figure in comics. :)
A lot of writers have written Superman (and other superheros) as messiah-like. And a lot haven't. It's easy to impose the view one wants, particularly when willing to accept even the most tenuous of links. (Really, #7 was amazingly weak.)
Sorry, I said point 6 but I meant 7, as I agree it's weak connection to make.
"TRUST ME."
Xavier's role as the leader of a group of individuals suffering persecution due to ignorance and misunderstanding, and his rare role as a pacifist superhero character who always avoids violence (although arguably Superman and certain other characters are also pacifists, and would choose to use peaceful means whenever possible) make him closer to the legendary accounts of Jesus than any other superhero, IMO.
"TRUST ME."
I thought #7 was pretty cool but I probably didn't explain it very well.
As I said all of this was just off the top of my head
and I haven't read any of the books that are about the parallels
Also the claim that Superman fights while Jesus didn't is overlooking the symbolic nature of the work
which you can't afford to do because that's totally what we're talking about.
Jesus fought against evil and won. His battle just wasn't physical
Superman's fights are physical because he's a symbolic character.
Also Jesus wasn't really a pacifist. He totally made a whip and used it to drive a bunch of merchants out of the temple
A pacifist wouldn't have done that.
And yes a lot of comic book characters have died and come back
and a lot of comic book characters are in stories filled with religious symbolism
remember the whole genre is about the struggle between good and evil
but Jean Grey was brought back in a stupid way that ended up claiming she was never really dead
They did it because people demanded it even though she was definitely dead and they originally had no plans to bring her back
But Superman was really dead and really came back and it was all planed in advance.
Just like Jesus.
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Which time?
The first time, she wasn't dead it was the Phoenix Force pretending to be her. The second was her coming back from being in stasis. Then there was her merging with clone, or later when she was killed in battle then resurrected years later. Or yet again when the Phoenix Force returned and resurrected yet again.
So Jean's been both thought dead but alive and actually dead and brought back to life. Multiple times for each.
But Superman didn't completely die. As I recall (and I was working in a comic store during this story arc, so we got asked this a LOT), Doomsday beat him so badly that he was, in fact, dying. But his body had not yet died, although it was so weakened that the flickering signs of life were nearly undetectable. Once they buried him, where the sun could not reach him, he would have died for good, but since the Eradicator stole his body and placed it in a solar rejuvenation chamber, his return and recovery was inevitable. (Despite the Eradicator drawing upon Superman's recovering energies to power himself)
During the time when his body was near death his spirit did go wandering, encountering the spirit of his father (who had had a heart attack at the news) where Jonathan Kent convinced his son to return to his body rather than die.
So, Near Death Experience, but not dead.
Green Arrow, however, actually did die and come back. Hal Jordan (in his role as the Spectre) actually had to go into Heaven to talk Ollie into returning.
I was talking about Jean grey as Phoenix killing herself
then the writers pretending years after the fact that she had really been in stasis and Phoenix wasn't her.
all that later stuff happened after I quit reading comics
As for Superman, if he really wasn't dead, the I was wrong
But I think you can see why I thought he was dead.
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So Jean Grey Death #1. Yep, total continuity retcon there. Not the worst 'No, they really didn't die, honest' handwaving ever, but certainly one of the most well-known.
And they did do a good job of making Supes 'mostly dead', while leaving a deliberate loophole to bring him back. We were pretty sure it was all a stunt anyhow, no way was DC killing off Big Blue for good.
Bringing this thread back is another example of how I reuse Ideas but take a look at this:
By the way, Does anyone have a guess as to why he named Arkham Asylum as a Prime Game?
Is there anything in COT that will make it a prime game?
Should there be?
or do we just want to reskin COH?
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