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Discuss: Idea, Build, Test, Repeat - Rapid Prototyping

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: Idea, Build, Test, Repeat - Rapid Prototyping

Well, the plethora of art is over, back to Tech. Lets hear some chatter.

Original post: http://cityoftitans.com/content/idea-build-test-repeat-rapid-prototyping

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Thanks for the update!

Thanks for the update!

To put this in a larger context, you're working on how you'll assemble interior missions? With the goal of making lots of modular spaces that can be reused with minimal additional effort?

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that is accurate, but only

that is accurate, but only the mid-size context. Large size context is, we can rapidly test ideas for all kinds of things, allowing us to really weigh and judge all our options throughout game development. But we are indeed working on an interior assembly system like that.

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Trick question.

Trick question.

2D tile set or 3D tile set?

I don't need to point any further afield than the Base Building Community to give relevance to this question. City of Heroes "did" 3D in a grudging fashion via what was essentially an ugly dirty hack which later became formalized and integrated. It would be nice to have a tile set building system that works "natively" in 3D ... with full 3D UI tools support ... so as to make 3D constructions as quick and as easy as possible.

Another point is that City of Heroes essentially had a huge library of Instance Maps with lots of subtle variations to them, but which used common element "modules" as I always thought of them. The "wedding cake" in the blue caves. The Portals on Pyramids room in Oranbega. The square Lab in the tech facility with the destructible lab equipment (that could buff or debuff you for a while). So on and so forth.

I was wondering if you were at all planning on using a system which "creatively assembles the room modules on the fly" using common/swappable "connector" points between hallways and rooms ... as opposed to simply pulling a random pre-generated (complete) map for use in Instances.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Trick question.
2D tile set or 3D tile set?
I don't need to point any further afield than the Base Building Community to give relevance to this question. City of Heroes "did" 3D in a grudging fashion via what was essentially an ugly dirty hack which later became formalized and integrated. It would be nice to have a tile set building system that works "natively" in 3D ... with full 3D UI tools support ... so as to make 3D constructions as quick and as easy as possible.
Another point is that City of Heroes essentially had a huge library of Instance Maps with lots of subtle variations to them, but which used common element "modules" as I always thought of them. The "wedding cake" in the blue caves. The Portals on Pyramids room in Oranbega. The square Lab in the tech facility with the destructible lab equipment (that could buff or debuff you for a while). So on and so forth.
I was wondering if you were at all planning on using a system which "creatively assembles the room modules on the fly" using common/swappable "connector" points between hallways and rooms ... as opposed to simply pulling a random pre-generated (complete) map for use in Instances.

3D. The tiles in this example are 5m cube segments, which can be stacked in any direction.

What we're doing is studying several options, to see which one gives the best balance for our needs. I used the tile prototype for this mainly because it is something we quite literally had someone jump on when an idea struck, and Angelwolf loves taking screenshots as he works so we had plenty to use of the intermediate work.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

, and Angelwolf loves taking screenshots as he works so we had plenty to use of the intermediate work.

Ahhh, yes... thats saved me allot of time, since my work on the Unity plugin.
I like to Annotate my caps a bit, and i found that plain TODO's work mostly ok... but haveing a Folder of ToDo Screen Caps is BETTER! ;D

Here is the easy to use screen cap tool: http://app.prntscr.com/en/index.html
Give it to Angelwolf too. Maybe he will like it allot. ;)

Note:
- Scrolling the mousewheel down/up increases/decreases text/line/etc.. size.
- Arrow keys move the captured selection area, and Shift + Arrow keys increase/decrease the area

sometimes i use it to make quick and dirty UI ToDo's ;)
Ex:

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Thanks for the suggestion but

Thanks for the suggestion but I normally just use Dropbox. When you hit PrintScreen or Alt-Printscreen with Dropbox running, it automatically sends that screenshot to dropbox and makes the link handy so I can share it with my colleagues right away. It's also great during conversations where people ask what I do for a living and I can say "I make video games!" and show them some of my portfolio right there on my phone.

Ayooooah!

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Very cool post, thanks. I

Very cool post, thanks. I read - "rapid development life cycle" = "more and more awesome content for me to enjoy"

:D

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Trick question.
2D tile set or 3D tile set?
I don't need to point any further afield than the Base Building Community to give relevance to this question. City of Heroes "did" 3D in a grudging fashion via what was essentially an ugly dirty hack which later became formalized and integrated. It would be nice to have a tile set building system that works "natively" in 3D ... with full 3D UI tools support ... so as to make 3D constructions as quick and as easy as possible.
Another point is that City of Heroes essentially had a huge library of Instance Maps with lots of subtle variations to them, but which used common element "modules" as I always thought of them. The "wedding cake" in the blue caves. The Portals on Pyramids room in Oranbega. The square Lab in the tech facility with the destructible lab equipment (that could buff or debuff you for a while). So on and so forth.
I was wondering if you were at all planning on using a system which "creatively assembles the room modules on the fly" using common/swappable "connector" points between hallways and rooms ... as opposed to simply pulling a random pre-generated (complete) map for use in Instances.

There are plans, and then there are plans.


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Now I'm curious, as this

Now I'm curious, as this announcement makes me wonder just how far along is CoT and if Nov 2015 even looks possible.

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I find this very encouraging!

I find this very encouraging! To say nothing of even exciting :) I grok the importance and utility of this right away and I'm happy ^~

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This looks very promising.

This looks very promising. Can't wait to see what it looks like with all the finishing touches. ^_^

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This is how I create business

This is how I create business systems when doing consulting work. You can talk to users all day long about the work they do, but nothing beats having a rapid prototyping system where you can build or modify a sample system for your clients to see if they like the look and feel of it.

-- Mewkychan =^.^=m mew!

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Now I'm curious, as this announcement makes me wonder just how far along is CoT and if Nov 2015 even looks possible.

Where are you getting November 2015 from?

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Zerohour wrote:

I found seeing the expediency for sorting through ideas that the prototyping system affords very encouraging when it comes to both release dates AND quality!

The ability to quickly pre-test ideas enhances both speed and quality of development simultaneously. That's a BIG dang deal.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Now I'm curious, as this announcement makes me wonder just how far along is CoT and if Nov 2015 even looks possible.

Where are you getting November 2015 from?

Original estimate, back at the time of the Kickstarter, was "about two years". This was, however, before the devs decided to accept the UE4 offer, which meant some of their UE3 work had to be redone, and some other delays in the months after the Kickstarter closed. So I think Brand X is wondering if this might let them save enough time to get back on that original schedule.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Zerohour wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Now I'm curious, as this announcement makes me wonder just how far along is CoT and if Nov 2015 even looks possible.

Where are you getting November 2015 from?

Original estimate, back at the time of the Kickstarter, was "about two years". This was, however, before the devs decided to accept the UE4 offer, which meant some of their UE3 work had to be redone, and some other delays in the months after the Kickstarter closed. So I think Brand X is wondering if this might let them save enough time to get back on that original schedule.

Are we talking finished product or alpha?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Foradain wrote:
Zerohour wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Now I'm curious, as this announcement makes me wonder just how far along is CoT and if Nov 2015 even looks possible.

Where are you getting November 2015 from?

Original estimate, back at the time of the Kickstarter, was "about two years". This was, however, before the devs decided to accept the UE4 offer, which meant some of their UE3 work had to be redone, and some other delays in the months after the Kickstarter closed. So I think Brand X is wondering if this might let them save enough time to get back on that original schedule.

Are we talking finished product or alpha?

I'm not sure what the Rednames/Devs would say at this point but the way I figure it I'll be happy if we have "something" to publicly test by the end of 2015. I'm not going to get too hung up on calling that something an "alpha", "beta", "pre-release candidate" or whatever. I'm just saying I'd like to see something tangible (besides just the costume creator app) by the end of the year. I don't think that's incredibly unreasonable. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I'm not sure what the Rednames/Devs would say at this point but the way I figure it I'll be happy if we have "something" to publicly test by the end of 2015. I'm not going to get too hung up on calling that something an "alpha", "beta", "pre-release candidate" or whatever. I'm just saying I'd like to see something tangible (besides just the costume creator app) by the end of the year. I don't think that's incredibly unreasonable. *shrugs*

Well, I'm no expert, but I've seen it said on these boards and many other places that the average MMORPG takes 4-6 years and millions of dollars to develop--and MWM isn't shooting for just the average MMORPG.

So, I while I desperately want the game right now, I'll be impressed if we have beta by 2016. And I'd personally rather wait for beta than have a game full of problems and limitations because it was rushed to release, which I've also read has ruined many potentially great MMORPG's.

But, if we do see something more than the costume creator by the end of the year, I'll happily sit down and eat my had with the sauce of your choosing :D.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I'm not sure what the Rednames/Devs would say at this point but the way I figure it I'll be happy if we have "something" to publicly test by the end of 2015. I'm not going to get too hung up on calling that something an "alpha", "beta", "pre-release candidate" or whatever. I'm just saying I'd like to see something tangible (besides just the costume creator app) by the end of the year. I don't think that's incredibly unreasonable. *shrugs*

Well, I'm no expert, but I've seen it said on these boards and many other places that the average MMORPG takes 4-6 years and millions of dollars to develop--and MWM isn't shooting for just the average MMORPG.
So, I while I desperately want the game right now, I'll be impressed if we have beta by 2016. And I'd personally rather wait for beta than have a game full of problems and limitations because it was rushed to release, which I've also read has ruined many potentially great MMORPG's.
But, if we do see something more than the costume creator by the end of the year, I'll happily sit down and eat my had with the sauce of your choosing :D.

I didn't say I wanted a "finished game" by the end of 2015. I said I'd be happy if there's something to "publicly test" by then, even if it's just a very early alpha. Again I don't think that's being too unreasonable.

We already know this isn't going to be "the average MMORPG that takes 4-6 years and millions of dollars to develop" and we've already seen the willingness of these Devs to be very open about what they show us when they show us so it would not surprise me in the least to get access to test builds much earlier than typical games would allow for. For what it's worth I've been working professionally in software engineering for over 20 years now so you can at least give me the benefit of the doubt for having "realistic expectations" on the matter.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I didn't say I wanted a "finished game" by the end of 2015. I said I'd be happy if there's something to "publicly test" by then, even if it's just a very early alpha. Again I don't think that's being too unreasonable.
We already know this isn't going to be "the average MMORPG that takes 4-6 years and millions of dollars to develop" and we've already seen the willingness of these Devs to be very open about what they show us when they show us so it would not surprise me in the least to get access to test builds much earlier than typical games would allow for. For what it's worth I've been working professionally in software engineering for over 20 years now so you can at least give me the benefit of the doubt for having "realistic expectations" on the matter.

I didn't mean any offense. I didn't think that you said you wanted a finished game by 2015 because, well, that's not what you said. What I've read as, admittedly, an outsider to the industry seems to indicate that the current goals are very ambitious.

But it sounds like you're more knowledgeable about these things than I am, and I hope you're right! Seriously, what kind of sauce for my hat? It'll be one of the happiest meals I've ever eaten.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Lothic wrote:
I didn't say I wanted a "finished game" by the end of 2015. I said I'd be happy if there's something to "publicly test" by then, even if it's just a very early alpha. Again I don't think that's being too unreasonable.
We already know this isn't going to be "the average MMORPG that takes 4-6 years and millions of dollars to develop" and we've already seen the willingness of these Devs to be very open about what they show us when they show us so it would not surprise me in the least to get access to test builds much earlier than typical games would allow for. For what it's worth I've been working professionally in software engineering for over 20 years now so you can at least give me the benefit of the doubt for having "realistic expectations" on the matter.

I didn't mean any offense. I didn't think you said you wanted a finished game by 2015 because, well, that's not what you said. What I've read as, admittedly, an outsider to the industry, seemes to indicate that the current goals are very ambitious.
Sounds like you're more knowledgeable about these things than I am, and I hope you're right. Seriously, what kind of sauce for my hat? It'll be one of the happiest meals I've ever eaten.

No offense taken. I'd easily agree we are still a few full years away from CoT being considered a "finished game" (whatever that might mean for an ongoing MMORPG like this). I'm just saying (hoping?) that we may get something to test relatively soon, even if that might be like a fraction of a zone with a handful of missions just to try out the basic game mechanics.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Lothic wrote:
I didn't say I wanted a "finished game" by the end of 2015. I said I'd be happy if there's something to "publicly test" by then, even if it's just a very early alpha. Again I don't think that's being too unreasonable.
We already know this isn't going to be "the average MMORPG that takes 4-6 years and millions of dollars to develop" and we've already seen the willingness of these Devs to be very open about what they show us when they show us so it would not surprise me in the least to get access to test builds much earlier than typical games would allow for. For what it's worth I've been working professionally in software engineering for over 20 years now so you can at least give me the benefit of the doubt for having "realistic expectations" on the matter.

I didn't mean any offense. I didn't think you said you wanted a finished game by 2015 because, well, that's not what you said. What I've read as, admittedly, an outsider to the industry, seemes to indicate that the current goals are very ambitious.
Sounds like you're more knowledgeable about these things than I am, and I hope you're right. Seriously, what kind of sauce for my hat? It'll be one of the happiest meals I've ever eaten.

No offense taken. I'd easily agree we are still a few full years away from CoT being considered a "finished game" (whatever that might mean for an ongoing MMORPG like this). I'm just saying (hoping?) that we may get something to test relatively soon, even if that might be like a fraction of a zone with a handful of missions just to try out the basic game mechanics.

Oh, I see, and cool! I hadn't thought about the possibility of such small-scale early testing other than what they'd said about the release of the CC module.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Zerohour wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Now I'm curious, as this announcement makes me wonder just how far along is CoT and if Nov 2015 even looks possible.

Where are you getting November 2015 from?

Original estimate, back at the time of the Kickstarter, was "about two years". This was, however, before the devs decided to accept the UE4 offer, which meant some of their UE3 work had to be redone, and some other delays in the months after the Kickstarter closed. So I think Brand X is wondering if this might let them save enough time to get back on that original schedule.

I'm wondering if we'll even have anything by Nov 15th. What we've seen is nothing close to looking anywhere near finished.

All I do have for info, is as mentioned, KS said roughly two years and it doesn't look as likely. Of course, I'm not a programmer :p Just know what was said before.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Foradain wrote:
Zerohour wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Now I'm curious, as this announcement makes me wonder just how far along is CoT and if Nov 2015 even looks possible.

Where are you getting November 2015 from?

Original estimate, back at the time of the Kickstarter, was "about two years". This was, however, before the devs decided to accept the UE4 offer, which meant some of their UE3 work had to be redone, and some other delays in the months after the Kickstarter closed. So I think Brand X is wondering if this might let them save enough time to get back on that original schedule.

I'm wondering if we'll even have anything by Nov 15th. What we've seen is nothing close to looking anywhere near finished.
All I do have for info, is as mentioned, KS said roughly two years and it doesn't look as likely. Of course, I'm not a programmer :p Just know what was said before.

Think back to the original CoH tutorial zone. Basically it was just a couple of generic city blocks with an area for a few dozen Contaminated citizens to run around in. It had a few simple/tiny missions and could be completed in like 10-15 minutes. All I'm saying (and again I think I'm being completely reasonable with this) is that the Devs of this game should be able to produce at least a rough working equivalent of that for release by the end of this year.

I don't think I'm asking for the moon and stars here. I'm not assuming every single power/powerset/animation/etc. has to be available at that point. Just saying that given a year we should be able at least see/test "something" along these lines. If not then there could be a cause for worry...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Thanks for the update. I

Thanks for the update. I think I like tech updates best, because it shows us "construction" work. And, as always, that you guys are concentrating on laying an exemplary foundation.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I don't think I'm asking for the moon and stars here. I'm not assuming every single power/powerset/animation/etc. has to be available at that point. Just saying that given a year we should be able at least see/test "something" along these lines. If not then there could be a cause for worry...

Nah don't worry.
Once the Avatar Builder comes out... MWM can raise lot and lot and lots more money. ;D

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Considering they had

Considering they had originally said December 2014 for the costume creator and we haven't even seen a single outfit yet, I wonder what our expectations should be for 2015

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Considering they had originally said December 2014 for the costume creator and we haven't even seen a single outfit yet, I wonder what our expectations should be for 2015

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!

But seriously, I feel ya. I don't like to voice impatience, but it's not always easy to keep your chin up. A lot of estimated dates have moved, and most of what we see are prototypes. The forums are full of wishful thinking, too, and all we can do from here is hope and pray for the best.

Still, we've seen some good stuff. There was lots of good art and modeling in the "Mogul" update. There were also some neat costumes in the background of the last Devmas post (pause and look behind the stairs).

Also consider that MWM hasn't been asking for money, so we can assume they have the finances they need to succeed. They also haven't recruited any new volunteers lately (that we're publicly aware of), so we have to assume they have the staff they need to do the work that needs to be done. Nothing indicates that they're strained for resources which should be a very positive sign.

All I can say in the end is hang in there.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Considering they had originally said December 2014 for the costume creator and we haven't even seen a single outfit yet, I wonder what our expectations should be for 2015

Was that before the switch to UE 4? If so the delay makes sense.

But, musical deadlines seems to be common in the gaming industry even amongst huge companies. While I'm as impatient as the next guy because since CoH closed I have an itch I just can't scratch anywhere else (and believe me I've tried), all's well that ends well.

And as Cinnder said, they are obviously going for an "exemplary foundation", which is worth it's weight in gold. Ask anyone who has ever achieved true excellence in anything.

As long as we have a great game eventually, I'll be happy if it's a bit late. Even if it's more than a bit.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Zerohour wrote:
Considering they had originally said December 2014 for the costume creator and we haven't even seen a single outfit yet, I wonder what our expectations should be for 2015

Was that before the switch to UE 4? If so the delay makes sense.

The swap to UE4 was announced at the end of March 2014, although according to *edit*VooDooGirl they had been working with UE 4 since late november/early december 2013 (So around the time of the kickstarter).

The thing is, the rumours for the avatar builder were starting before then, but nothing had really been done to change the rumours of that date either.

This is why I was incredibly sceptical of the game launching by November 2015, something that I have brought up several times; if anything to clarify the situation surrounding the kickstarter...

The thing is, a lot of the rumours can be shot down in one quick easy "UPDATE ON STATUS" post. Where it is put front and centre as to what the expected thing is.

Quote:

The key is communication on all levels. It is when communication breaks down that the real problems happen, and that is why we work our hardest to keep up the flow of information. Things happen, everyone knows that. But when something does happen, we figure out why it happened and how to address it. Then we let the community know. We don't hide when issues happen, we just persevere to make sure it does not happen again. It is how we've handled it until now, and how we will continue to handle it going forward.

That is taken from the end of their kickstarter. The thing is, they have been VERY slow on even letting people know that something is up (delays on kickstarter delivery stuff for example). I believe that was only explained by a forum post (in response to the questions about it), and not an actual announcement.

So for the backers who HADN'T signed up here? Or the people who signed up to the forums but didn't visit every day to read every post? Sorry, you are outta luck here.

Here's a broken rubics cube. Go F*&K yourself.

The lack of communication on the player side front appears to be very bad.... the CM people rarely post (unless its updates) whereas the more vocal developers are the people who are engaging in several area's that are NOT in their realm of expertise normally...

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1) I reject your reality.... and substitute my own
2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
3) Stoke me a clipper i will be back for dinner
4) I have seen more intelligence from an NPC AI in TR beta, than from most MMO players.

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@Gangrel

@Gangrel

We have been asking for a centralized location for status updates since almost day one and we are still waiting. Whether it's something on the main page or a simple forum thread meant strictly to track dev posts, it would be extremely helpful for everyone looking for information. As it stands we have to foray through all the different threads in the hopes of discovering any new snippets of info from a red name.

I greatly appreciated the "days of Devmas" and it was nice to see some forward progression. But (and let me know if I'm alone on this) I fully expected a big reveal at the end like the alpha costume creator or something. I do feel like it's time for a big update as to where everything stands.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

I greatly appreciated the "days of Devmas" and it was nice to see some forward progression. But (and let me know if I'm alone on this) I fully expected a big reveal at the end like the alpha costume creator or something. I do feel like it's time for a big update as to where everything stands.

Nope, I didn't expect that.
But, i was HOPING for a few (2 or 3) raw un-partitioned Costumes that were made maybe in Marvelous Designer. Just to see how it could look. Even if its on Odo. ;) But any kind of 3D model would do, too. ;D

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Personally, I'll be happy

Personally, I'll be happy with just the avatar builder by the end of 2015, if it's really good.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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In what I do I deal with the

In what I do, I deal with the seemingly paradoxical fact that building a good foundation is the only way get good results in the long run, and yet also takes time and leads to the least impressive results in the short run.

So I agree with Radiac here.

On the other hand... as Zero Hour and Gangrel have brought up, managing people's expectations is a HUGE part of business. So that should be a priority too.

Not an enviable position to be between the rock of reality and the hard place of people's expectations. Especially in a largely volunteer effort.

But we do all need to remember that if they succeed, we all win.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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The original avatar release

The original avatar release date was based on Unreal 3, where it honestly was very feasible. The framework was done, the character rig done...at this point, I think the character rig and animation could be easily labeled the thing that got set back the worst and longest by the change. It's not just a matter of redoing work. Unreal 4 is different, and when we got in on it? That was the earliest roughest form of the engine made available. 4.0. Someday we'll be one of THE experts in Unreal 4, simply because of when we started using it.

But it means instead of finding multiple approaches and choosing one, we've had to FIGURE IT OUT. Invent the wheel. We're the forerunners here now. We're not just developing on Unreal 4. We're BETA TESTING it. Literally doing the groundbreaking work on figuring out development in it, and dramatically affecting its final form with our feedback to Epic. Imagine what that does to development timelines. And the character rig has taken hit after hit as we tried to get it right in the new environment. I think we're finally getting near the end of that. Later generations of game developers will benefit from our sweat and toil. And we still have much reason to believe Unreal 4 will make it all worthwhile in the end. But for now, things will take time.

As for community communication...well, that's honestly a good example of where our volunteer status hits hardest. We're all trying to develop this game in our spare time, and so, while we do consider all those community communication things important, it's VERY hard to get them prioritized. We don't have full time people dedicated to stuff like that. We've got people trying to code the game engine and make the new website in their spare time (and you can imagine what happens to prioritization on that too) and then somebody from PR asks for a modification to a website that they're barely managing to find the time to try and replace entirely...so yeah. It's just really, really hard to get those things taken care of. There's always five vital game development things that need to be worked on first. We - often I in particular - try, we want to deliver there. But until we can get full time employees, it is likely it will continue to be delayed. Just too many things to try and prioritize on a free time basis. In the end, more immediate, directly game development related things will just keep bobbling to the top.

Now, we ARE overdue a State of the Game update. So happens there have been regular internal reasons to put it off, good reasons related to what we'd actually have to write in it. Unfortunately, that seems to have carried us four months past when I first suggested we write another one, so I'll see what I can do.

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If you guys were already

If you guys were already making the game without this community, and we jumped on the wagon ourselves, then of course I could understand where we would sit on your list of priorities. But seeing as how this project wouldn't be happening without everyone here, frankly I'm a little surprised how you could admit we fall to the wayside all the time

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

If you guys were already making the game without this community, and we jumped on the wagon ourselves, then of course I could understand where we would sit on your list of priorities. But seeing as how this project wouldn't be happening without everyone here, frankly I'm a little surprised how you could admit we fall to the wayside all the time

Zero, I get what you're saying, but if resources are finite (which they are), what's the greater priority--comforting the community or focusing everything on getting the game to us?

I know it's not totally either/or, but when there is a decision to make as far as effort/resource allocation, do you want it to skew towards placating us or making the game?

I know I don't have a green K on my name, but I just didn't know until too late and I already have money allocated for when I'm allowed to contribute. And I'd personally rather them focus on geting us the game.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I respect that Unreal Engine

I respect that Unreal Engine 4 is on the bleeding edge, and I like to believe MWM made the right choice when selecting it for City of Titans. I hope the expertise the development team gains from it will make MWM a more valuable and effective studio in the future. I'm sure Epic and others working with UE4 also appreciate your efforts.

I just hope MWM doesn't incur the failure of City of Titans as a result. My worst fear is that delays will compound upon one another and deadlock the project due to the struggle with UE4. I'll be very disappointed if UE4 causes the project to fail, especially knowing that it could have been done much more quickly and easily using UE3.

In the meantime, I think communication can only help matters. Nothing destroys confidence and morale during uncertain times like a lack of transparency. I can say that from experience. I understand that everyone is busy bringing the game to fruition---and that work is very much appreciated---but I think a "State of the Game" would be most welcome.

Now we may be a little restless, but we wouldn't be here if we didn't have faith in the project. Please don't let our clamor derail development. We're eager to see any progress you can share along the way, but I'd say we're more eager to see it done!

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Plexius wrote:
Plexius wrote:

I respect that Unreal Engine 4 is on the bleeding edge, and I like to believe MWM made the right choice when selecting it for City of Titans. I hope the expertise the development team gains from it will make MWM a more valuable and effective studio in the future. I'm sure Epic and others working with UE4 also appreciate your efforts.
I just hope MWM doesn't incur the failure of City of Titans as a result. My worst fear is that delays will compound upon one another and deadlock the project due to the struggle with UE4. I'll be very disappointed if UE4 causes the project to fail, especially knowing that it could have been done much more quickly and easily using UE3.
In the meantime, I think communication can only help matters. Nothing destroys confidence and morale during uncertain times like a lack of transparency. I can say that from experience. I understand that everyone is busy bringing the game to fruition---and that work is very much appreciated---but I think a "State of the Game" would be most welcome.
Now we may be a little restless, but we wouldn't be here if we didn't have faith in the project. Please don't let our clamor derail development. We're eager to see any progress you can share along the way, but I'd say we're more eager to see it done!

I just don't think we need a NCSoft West Blade & Soul situation :/

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Plexius wrote:
I respect that Unreal Engine 4 is on the bleeding edge, and I like to believe MWM made the right choice when selecting it for City of Titans. I hope the expertise the development team gains from it will make MWM a more valuable and effective studio in the future. I'm sure Epic and others working with UE4 also appreciate your efforts.
I just hope MWM doesn't incur the failure of City of Titans as a result. My worst fear is that delays will compound upon one another and deadlock the project due to the struggle with UE4. I'll be very disappointed if UE4 causes the project to fail, especially knowing that it could have been done much more quickly and easily using UE3.
In the meantime, I think communication can only help matters. Nothing destroys confidence and morale during uncertain times like a lack of transparency. I can say that from experience. I understand that everyone is busy bringing the game to fruition---and that work is very much appreciated---but I think a "State of the Game" would be most welcome.
Now we may be a little restless, but we wouldn't be here if we didn't have faith in the project. Please don't let our clamor derail development. We're eager to see any progress you can share along the way, but I'd say we're more eager to see it done!

I just don't think we need a NCSoft West Blade & Soul situation :/

Are folks still holding out for a North American release? Yikes. Well if it's any comfort, I don't think we could be strung along for too long before MWM runs out of gas. I think it's a do or die situation. They'll either emerge victorious from their trial by fire or be crushed under the weight of their own ambition.

I agree with Lothic in that their tangible progress by the end of 2015 will be a telltale sign. If they're still mired in the basic underpinnings of the game's core architecture, I think it would be a bleak omen.

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I'm in the "Eager but not

I'm in the "Eager but not Worried" camp along with folks like Empyrean. There are days I ache for a CoX/CoT-like game to play, and I certainly wouldn't say no to a State of the Game update, but because everything I see and hear about the mechanics being developed is so promising, I'm happy to let MWM proceed at whatever pace they see fit, including updates to the community.

I think there's a real Catch-22 with giving us detailed info. I notice that only when we get a tech update (or art update with tech elements, like the 12 Days) do folks really start to demand more details on the schedule. It doesn't seem to happen with lore updates. So if I were MWM I'd be in a quandary. How would I know that giving more detail wouldn't just create a greater hue and cry for even more? I don't envy you your job, Shadow.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I'll throw my hat in with

I'll throw my hat in with Empyrean and Cinnder.

It does seem that when there are no tech updates, people demand tech updates. When there are tech updates, the responses often come across as, "OMG is that all?!" and "Is this game really not going to fail?" Yes, as Empyrean has pointed out, it's a tough job that MWM has to do to thread the line between getting the work done and being able to provide the fans with somewhat meaningful updates. However, it's still rather demotivational if their attempts to keep us in the loop is met with constant skepticism.

The change to UE4 did cause some delays, but in the long run it's going to be much, much better for us. We're talking about the difference between an engine which required jury-rigging to work as a MMO versus an engine that is built to work with/as a MMO. And I have no doubt that this MMO support will only increase if MWM have any say in the matter.

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The tech updates are looking

The tech updates are looking super promising and there's a lot of hope and support out there for the game. Personally, really can't wait to get into it and more than willing to wait the time required for the devs to feel as if they've done the game justice. Everything so far looks like it's going to be a lot of fun to mess with.

Also, am I seeing that right? Are there angles to the doorways/hallways? ^_^ If so, does that mean we'll get it as part of the base building later on (if/when we get base building?)

A dream without goals is just a wish.

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Silent Dream wrote:
Silent Dream wrote:

Also, am I seeing that right? Are there angles to the doorways/hallways? ^_^ If so, does that mean we'll get it as part of the base building later on (if/when we get base building?)

The intent behind our map builder system is that it is the basis from which we derive the base builder system and our user generated content builder. This way we have one system to work with/in/on/update/fix instead of multiple systems which can lead to one or more getting ignored, broken, or outdated / not kelt up with current coding. Everything we design is meant to be modular. While we may have more tools at our disposal (engine end aside) in the dev map builder, all the tools on the player's end are either the same or paired down from them.


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Basically our working

Basically our working philosophy: The community gets as close to what we get as we can. The aim for this game is to be community driven even after it is out. Our goal is to deliver a game that is as close to what you wish for in a game that we can.

Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I think there's a real Catch-22 with giving us detailed info. I notice that only when we get a tech update (or art update with tech elements, like the 12 Days) do folks really start to demand more details on the schedule. It doesn't seem to happen with lore updates. So if I were MWM I'd be in a quandary. How would I know that giving more detail wouldn't just create a greater hue and cry for even more? I don't envy you your job, Shadow.

Darth Fez wrote:

It does seem that when there are no tech updates, people demand tech updates. When there are tech updates, the responses often come across as, "OMG is that all?!" and "Is this game really not going to fail?" Yes, as Empyrean has pointed out, it's a tough job that MWM has to do to thread the line between getting the work done and being able to provide the fans with somewhat meaningful updates. However, it's still rather demotivational if their attempts to keep us in the loop is met with constant skepticism.

Thanks guys. You pretty much nailed it.

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My Nephew wants to go into

My Nephew wants to go into game design we often talk about games and the inner workings. So I see things from the development view. First year there was a lot to do to set down foundation organize the business end, getting the right equipment, basic search for engine. First there was the CRY engine, then the switch to the Unreal 3, and jump to Unreal 4. I can understand why things get delayed.

Full Triple A games get delayed so I'm not worried at this point. An MMO normal production is 5-7 years or more. I much rather get a big WOW AWESOME peek behind the curtain then a spoon full every week that just a slight improvement over last week.

That what will happen if they show us everything it be boring. We see that Odo gets more fluid motion, and more fluid jumps, but it be small does. We will see a building go from an untextured wall to a brick building one step at a time. At first it be interesting then it will get boring over the span of a year. So I'm with Cinnder and Darth Fez, I fully understand keep the magic hidden till you are ready to put on a real show.

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Of course, I'm not suggesting

Of course, I'm not suggesting that we should get a full look behind the curtains of everything going on, broken or not. Nor am I expecting every incremental improvement in game mechanics to be announced. What I thought would be a great idea, is if we could have something along the lines of

"Audio - here are the tracks we have laid down, we have the sound effects complete for *this*, some of the voice work for NPCs are finished, etc.
Zones - we have *these* zones figured out and are in the process of moving them from sketches to in game
Costumes - so far, we have *this many* costumes pretty much completed, as well as *these* color schemes, oh and we have ironed out the process of being able to have something different on the right and left arms"

Get what I mean? Just a thought really. Also, do we have a definitive list of all of the people working on this game? It would be pretty cool to see who's doing what. And is there any updates on possibly having a dev tracker so we know when a redname posts something somewhere?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Of course, I'm not suggesting that we should get a full look behind the curtains of everything going on, broken or not. Nor am I expecting every incremental improvement in game mechanics to be announced. What I thought would be a great idea, is if we could have something along the lines of
"Audio - here are the tracks we have laid down, we have the sound effects complete for *this*, some of the voice work for NPCs are finished, etc.
Zones - we have *these* zones figured out and are in the process of moving them from sketches to in game
Costumes - so far, we have *this many* costumes pretty much completed, as well as *these* color schemes, oh and we have ironed out the process of being able to have something different on the right and left arms"
Get what I mean? Just a thought really. Also, do we have a definitive list of all of the people working on this game? It would be pretty cool to see who's doing what. And is there any updates on possibly having a dev tracker so we know when a redname posts something somewhere?

This assumes that there is a finished-state, a perfect and ideal never-touch-it-again point. For a game which is released and then abandoned forever, this is fine. For a game which is expected to continue active development post-release, this form of list becomes problematic long before release.

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

And is there any updates on possibly having a dev tracker so we know when a redname posts something somewhere?

Now this is something I would like very much.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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See, that's exactly the kind

See, that's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about in my post above - it's a revision to the site, a piece of coding that would require the time of someone who is already working on an entirely new website to replace this whole thing in the first place, in what free time he can find from the free time he is spending coding the game itself. In the end, pretty much anything involving modifying this site is low priority because we want to replace the site - go to the relevant team member with such a proposal and he will say 'why don't I just code that into the new one, instead of coding it twice in two different environments, one of which is replacing the other anyway?'. And he'd be right. It's the kind of logic and prioritization that we pretty much have to make, under our current structure, in order to get things done. Again, it's a matter of what you can expect from a studio of full time paid employees versus what we can pull off. Just succeeding at making the game would astound enough of the industry.

That said, it seems my work in metrics will be going quiet for a little while, so I may be able to try and set something up as far as basic feedback. But it will *have* to work with already existing functionalities on the site. And it will have to not require too much time gathering feedback from individual team members on a too frequent basis, or we just won't be able to keep it up reliably. Suggestions are welcome.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply a dev tracker was a priority for me over actual game development. Nor do I expect significant changes to this web site if a new one is still being worked on. I just wanted to put in one person's vote to request that such a feature be on the list for the next web site.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Is there some kind of icon

Is there some kind of icon you can display beside a forum section title or something like that that will let us know a developer has posted in there? Like what blizzard does on their forms with the blue blizzard logo.

Or even just a thread in one of the sections that is strictly meant only for developer posts. Nobody can reply to mess it all up it's just strictly developer postings. I don't know how you could organize that one, if there's a feature to auto paste something that's been posted somewhere else?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Guess not lol

Guess not lol

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

This assumes that there is a finished-state, a perfect and ideal never-touch-it-again point. For a game which is released and then abandoned forever, this is fine. For a game which is expected to continue active development post-release, this form of list becomes problematic long before release.

Sorry, Doctor, but that was a non-answer.

There has been a lot of trying stuff out in UE4 and that's great, but there comes a point where you have to move from experiments and brainstorms and nail down what V1 is. I would hope that by now you have a requirements document that describes what you plan to deliver and milestones when certain things should be done. For example, I would expect there would be milestones around the character model:

First male model rig done
One complete costume for model
Second complete costume and ability to switch between costumes
Colorable costume parts
Female model 1
etc.

Without something like this, you have no visibility into where you are relative to what you want to achieve and whether you are on track to deliver it. And if you have something like this, then assuming you have a resource to write the update, you can provide status updates as to how the team is progressing against plan.

Z

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Zaran wrote:
Zaran wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
This assumes that there is a finished-state, a perfect and ideal never-touch-it-again point. For a game which is released and then abandoned forever, this is fine. For a game which is expected to continue active development post-release, this form of list becomes problematic long before release.

Sorry, Doctor, but that was a non-answer.
There has been a lot of trying stuff out in UE4 and that's great, but there comes a point where you have to move from experiments and brainstorms and nail down what V1 is. I would hope that by now you have a requirements document that describes what you plan to deliver and milestones when certain things should be done. For example, I would expect there would be milestones around the character model:
First male model rig done

One complete costume for model

Second complete costume and ability to switch between costumes

Colorable costume parts

Female model 1

etc.

Without something like this, you have no visibility into where you are relative to what you want to achieve and whether you are on track to deliver it. And if you have something like this, then assuming you have a resource to write the update, you can provide status updates as to how the team is progressing against plan.
Z

I probably shouldn't get in the middle of this, but...

Doc, I am a big fan and loathe to say anything, but I see Z's point about this being not the best answer. Unless I'm missing something, your answer is that, since things change there can be no overly specific updates if you're going to develop past release. But... all MMORPG's that I'm aware of develop at least to some extent past release, and most have given at least some pre-release updates.

On the other hand, Z, MMORPG developers--even very good MMORPG developers--are notoriously secretive until they have the vast majority of the under-the-hood work done for a reason. Most people don't understand what they are looking at, and so run around howling "ZHERMAGHERD! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMUH!" to the hills plus anyone who will listen at the first thing they see that doesn't look exactly like what they think the final game should look like.

Now, some may say, "yeah, but, we kickstarted it, so it's different", but it's not a bit different as far as smart business is concerned. And only smart business coupled with a labor of love will make this particular Zeppelin fly.

So, I think that Z is right EXCEPT that the game-showing updates should be withheld til there is a level of polish that will not allow the layman to snap-judge the game and then sing it to the hills.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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They seem to suddenly be very

They seem to suddenly be very tippy toe-y around answering questions. No status of the game update in months, weekly updates moved to biweekly, communication not up to par as per their own admission, unwillingness to nail down specifics. I wonder what's going on?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

They seem to suddenly be very tippy toe-y around answering questions. No status of the game update in months, weekly updates moved to biweekly, communication not up to par as per their own admission, unwillingness to nail down specifics. I wonder what's going on?

LOL

<.<

>.>

o_o

CONSPIRACY DOOM!!!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

They seem to suddenly be very tippy toe-y around answering questions. No status of the game update in months, weekly updates moved to biweekly, communication not up to par as per their own admission, unwillingness to nail down specifics. I wonder what's going on?

Well, I know that at least a few of them have been working on a special something that's gonna be in-game.

Something Naughty...

Phoenix Rising's Model Citizen

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Now, some may say, "yeah, but, we kickstarted it, so it's different", but it's not a bit different as far as smart business is concerned. And only smart business coupled with a labor of love will make this particular Zeppelin fly.

Very much this. Would it be nice to know where the game is? Sure. Does MWM owe us status updates? Not in the least. I expect MWM does indeed have a project plan, but that doesn't mean they must (or even should) share it with us. It's entirely up to them as a marketing decision, i.e. is it likely that the "zhermagherd" reactions will outweigh the benefits? Just because we want something doesn't mean it's good for us to get it.

Zerohour wrote:

They seem to suddenly be very tippy toe-y around answering questions. No status of the game update in months, weekly updates moved to biweekly, communication not up to par as per their own admission, unwillingness to nail down specifics. I wonder what's going on ?

I've detected no change other than reducing the frequency of updates, and they already gave very good reasons for that.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I've detected no change other than reducing the frequency of updates, and they already gave very good reasons for that.

I'm sure you're on these forums as much as me, and all I can say is they aren't nearly as communicative as they used to be, and after a year and a half don't seem to have anything nailed down yet as far as we've been told. Someone else in the thread posted concerns about still being in the brainstorming and experimenting phase, which is what I'm referring to.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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The issue is how do I answer

The issue is how do I answer without giving away the whole thing?

Technical Director

Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The issue is how do I answer without giving away the whole thing?

Redact!? ;D

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To me silence here just means

To me silence here just means work is being done instead of talking about it. MMOs aren't built over night and especially not from one of the first entirely community bred ones to exist.

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I think it's clear there have

I think it's clear there have been setbacks and delays. No suprise and no need to throw shade about it.

But the idea that we want to see V1 and pre-alpha is just one I disagree with. Faith is currency. The devs have been careful to supply only what is adequate with the LARGE demand. There is little the devs COULD do short of showing people the final game version of something. If/When they show us a preview of something people will expect that it is a piece of the final tapestry which it very potentially may NOT be.

Crowd Control Enthusiast

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

I think it's clear there have been setbacks and delays. No suprise and no need to throw shade about it.
But the idea that we want to see V1 and pre-alpha is just one I disagree with. Faith is currency. The devs have been careful to supply only what is adequate with the LARGE demand. There is little the devs COULD do short of showing people the final game version of something. If/When they show us a preview of something people will expect that it is a piece of the final tapestry which it very potentially may NOT be.

Thanks, Jay, that actually helped me understand Doc's answer better. I just didn't grok what he was saying.

Regardless, I agree with and +1 all of those who have posted in support of MWM and their staff.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

The issue is how do I answer without giving away the whole thing?

First Rule Of Leadership

When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.

However, in this case, I'm thinking that it would be a bad idea to follow the Statesman Example™ and ... obfuscate. Definitely NOT recommended!


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
The issue is how do I answer without giving away the whole thing?

First Rule Of Leadership
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
However, in this case, I'm thinking that it would be a bad idea to follow the Statesman Example™ and ... obfuscate. Definitely NOT recommended!

Awwwwwww...
I really wanted to see a Redacted approach! :<
ex:

;D

And as new details can be revealed, it will be Un-Redacted, and it will feel like were playing...

;D

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izzy - Let me see what I can

izzy - Let me see what I can do.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

izzy - Let me see what I can do.

Oh Crapola! :O
Nooooooo. You'll shift the blame onto MEEEEE! :P

Must RUN, HIDE! <.< *looks for the lynch mob* >.>

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Ok, Just a couple things.

Ok, Just a couple things.

First off, great update.

Next,

I wondered if there was currently work being done on a new website. This is awesome news! I'm glad MWM hasn't lost focus on who they are and what the goal is.

I want to talk about something that is central to this discussion. In my job, the people that make the decisions about how I do things and what systems I use are 6000 miles away. As you can imagine this gets frustrating at times. I am here on the 'front lines' while some 50 year old ******** sits in his mothers basement firing off emails to all my local bosses about how I did something they don't like. The point is, MWM are all volunteer and have many other things going on. They have leaders and a corporate structure, however, they are all on the 'front lines' of this development. With the state of the game as it is and the team in the positions they are, they don't have time for BS. Its time for work right now. Things need to get done and they need to get done in a certain way and they need to be done right. They cant afford to waste time. Delays will always happen, problems will always come up. We as the community and the backers, need to support OUR front line. For all intents and purposes, we are the bosses. We do not need to be that boss that has absolutely no leadership abilities and just nags their employees to do their job, or comes in and derails the train because we saw something shiny.

I understand it is difficult to wait. I am dying to get busy punching some baddies through walls, but I understand the need for maximizing every bit of work. Sometimes its hard to understand if you have never had something you thought was very important and at the same time had someone standing over your shoulder nagging, or questioning what you are doing and why. Ill tell you from experience, if im in one of those situations, feel free to jump in on my work if you are looking for a trip to the hospital.

By all means question the devs, by all means challenge the devs, but remember that they have promised repeatedly that they are not going to settle for a half*** product. So far they have lived up to every promise to the best of their ability and to the best of the situation. So far they have demonstrated what is required to make this game everything everyone wants it to be. Give them time, give them constructive criticism, give them ideas, give them feedback, but when you throw despair or defeat in there, you are hurting all of us, especially YOURSELF. All of us profit at the end of the journey, even the nay sayers, so screw those jerks in pod 6, lets make this thing happen.

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charlieranger wrote:
charlieranger wrote:

We do not need to be that boss that has absolutely no leadership abilities and just nags their employees to do their job, or comes in and derails the train because we saw something shiny.

So, don't be a

^_^

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charlieranger wrote:
charlieranger wrote:

As you can imagine this gets frustrating at times. I am here on the 'front lines' while some 50 year old ******** sits in his mothers basement firing off emails to all my local bosses about how I did something they don't like.

Short form: "you can't please everyone all the time".

It's a good idea to remind ourselves of this now and then. Especially that, from time to time, we ("you", if you prefer) are going to be a part of the "everyone".

I fully anticipate that there will be aspects of CoT that do not meet my expectations and that I do not like or that, at a minimum, I think could be better. I'm certain that I will poke fun at and complain about these things every so often. However, for the most part I'm going to deal with them and concentrate on the aspects I do like.

- - - - -
Hail Beard!

Support trap clowns for CoT!

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charlieranger wrote:
charlieranger wrote:

Ok, Just a couple things.
First off, great update.
Next,
I wondered if there was currently work being done on a new website. This is awesome news! I'm glad MWM hasn't lost focus on who they are and what the goal is.
I want to talk about something that is central to this discussion. In my job, the people that make the decisions about how I do things and what systems I use are 6000 miles away. As you can imagine this gets frustrating at times. I am here on the 'front lines' while some 50 year old ******** sits in his mothers basement firing off emails to all my local bosses about how I did something they don't like. The point is, MWM are all volunteer and have many other things going on. They have leaders and a corporate structure, however, they are all on the 'front lines' of this development. With the state of the game as it is and the team in the positions they are, they don't have time for BS. Its time for work right now. Things need to get done and they need to get done in a certain way and they need to be done right. They cant afford to waste time. Delays will always happen, problems will always come up. We as the community and the backers, need to support OUR front line. For all intents and purposes, we are the bosses. We do not need to be that boss that has absolutely no leadership abilities and just nags their employees to do their job, or comes in and derails the train because we saw something shiny.
I understand it is difficult to wait. I am dying to get busy punching some baddies through walls, but I understand the need for maximizing every bit of work. Sometimes its hard to understand if you have never had something you thought was very important and at the same time had someone standing over your shoulder nagging, or questioning what you are doing and why. Ill tell you from experience, if im in one of those situations, feel free to jump in on my work if you are looking for a trip to the hospital.
By all means question the devs, by all means challenge the devs, but remember that they have promised repeatedly that they are not going to settle for a half*** product. So far they have lived up to every promise to the best of their ability and to the best of the situation. So far they have demonstrated what is required to make this game everything everyone wants it to be. Give them time, give them constructive criticism, give them ideas, give them feedback, but when you throw despair or defeat in there, you are hurting all of us, especially YOURSELF. All of us profit at the end of the journey, even the nay sayers, so screw those jerks in pod 6, lets make this thing happen.

I think people wanting updates is valid. I think people wanting to see a game further along than it is, is a valid thing.

More so when they seem to admit they were father along, then threw it away for a new engine. Which may be better, but it did set them back.

Obviously 2015 is out the window, but we don't have a new date either.

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Rapid Prototyping sounds

Rapid Prototyping sounds great is that concept will be using when the players make the player made content.
Or are we going to run like crazy through the zones to test our content out.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Obviously 2015 is out the window, but we don't have a new date either.

According to an FAQ update on the game's Facebook page from the end of October, they're aiming for a mid-2016 release. This has been my expectation since it was posted, and while it's not an exact date, it gives us something to go on assuming it doesn't get pushed out further.

Quote:

4. When is the game coming out?

At this point, we are aiming for a mid 2016 release, with an earlier open Beta, and earlier still alpha and beta-testing for Kickstarter backers.

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Plexius wrote:
Plexius wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Obviously 2015 is out the window, but we don't have a new date either.

According to an FAQ update on the game's Facebook page from the end of October, they're aiming for a mid-2016 release. This has been my expectation since it was posted, and while it's not an exact date, it gives us something to go on assuming it doesn't get pushed out further.
Quote:
4. When is the game coming out?
At this point, we are aiming for a mid 2016 release, with an earlier open Beta, and earlier still alpha and beta-testing for Kickstarter backers.

Well, nice to know now. Still, that seems pretty close with so little showing to be done. Always was going to be a wait and see though.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I think people wanting updates is valid. I think people wanting to see a game further along than it is, is a valid thing.
More so when they seem to admit they were father along, then threw it away for a new engine. Which may be better, but it did set them back.
Obviously 2015 is out the window, but we don't have a new date either.

Like Plexius, I'd thought the current release has been mid 2016 for a few months now. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were pushed back a bit more as is not at all uncommon in the industry.

These things may be perfectly valid, but I'm not sure they're wise. We may want updates, but if providing them pulls away from MWM's finite resources and so decreases the speed or quality of development, is it really a great idea?

And I've always been baffled by people not wanting to wait a little longer for a much better game overall using UE 4 (I know that's not exactly what you were saying there, Brand). Among other things, the game will look better, have a greater range of options, play better on older systems, be easier to maintain and develop post-release, and have a longer life as far as the graphics engine.

That seems like an absolutely brilliant move on MWM's part and I'm grateful they had the balls to make it and are willing to take the flack for doing it. I'll gladly wait an additional half-year or year for all of that.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

And I've always been baffled by people not wanting to wait a little longer for a much better game overall using UE 4 (I know that's not exactly what you were saying there, Brand). Among other things, the game will look better, have a greater range of options, play better on older systems, be easier to maintain and develop post-release, and have a longer life as far as the graphics engine.
That seems like an absolutely brilliant move on MWM's part and I'm grateful they had the balls to make it and are willing to take the flack for doing it. I'll gladly wait an additional half-year or year for all of that.

+10100

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

And I've always been baffled by people not wanting to wait a little longer for a much better game overall using UE 4 (I know that's not exactly what you were saying there, Brand). Among other things, the game will look better, have a greater range of options, play better on older systems, be easier to maintain and develop post-release, and have a longer life as far as the graphics engine.
That seems like an absolutely brilliant move on MWM's part and I'm grateful they had the balls to make it and are willing to take the flack for doing it. I'll gladly wait an additional half-year or year for all of that.

+11000
;)

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Plexius wrote:
Plexius wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Obviously 2015 is out the window, but we don't have a new date either.

According to an FAQ update on the game's Facebook page from the end of October, they're aiming for a mid-2016 release. This has been my expectation since it was posted, and while it's not an exact date, it gives us something to go on assuming it doesn't get pushed out further.
Quote:
4. When is the game coming out?
At this point, we are aiming for a mid 2016 release, with an earlier open Beta, and earlier still alpha and beta-testing for Kickstarter backers.

As far as I am aware though, this has NOT been sent out to the kickstarter backers. The FAQ there is woefully out of date as well.

Its good that it HAS been mentioned, bad in that the FAQ on THIS site says otherwise.

Infact, that version is out of date by over a year, as it refers to Unreal 3.

So yeah, when people seem to drive home one "incorrect" date, that is because the resource that you WOULD have expected to have the correct date doesn't.

The people who have access to these pages need to do something about it.

Quote:

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2) Not to be used when upset... will void warranty
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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

Plexius wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Obviously 2015 is out the window, but we don't have a new date either.

According to an FAQ update on the game's Facebook page from the end of October, they're aiming for a mid-2016 release. This has been my expectation since it was posted, and while it's not an exact date, it gives us something to go on assuming it doesn't get pushed out further.
Quote:
4. When is the game coming out?
At this point, we are aiming for a mid 2016 release, with an earlier open Beta, and earlier still alpha and beta-testing for Kickstarter backers.

As far as I am aware though, this has NOT been sent out to the kickstarter backers. The FAQ there is woefully out of date as well.
Its good that it HAS been mentioned, bad in that the FAQ on THIS site says otherwise.
Infact, that version is out of date by over a year, as it refers to Unreal 3.
So yeah, when people seem to drive home one "incorrect" date, that is because the resource that you WOULD have expected to have the correct date doesn't.
The people who have access to these pages need to do something about it.

I agree, and the disconnect between various sources of information is something I alluded to in another post. The only reason I found the news on their Facebook page is because I feel the need to check it to get all the updates. I don't even have a Facebook account.

Hopefully things will flow a little better once their new site is up and running. In the meantime, just hold on loosely, but don't let go. If you cling too tightly, you're gonna lose control. We all need something to believe in, but MWM needs a whole lot of space to breathe in.

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Plexius wrote:
Plexius wrote:

In the meantime, just hold on loosely, but don't let go. If you cling too tightly, you're gonna lose control. We all need something to believe in, but MWM needs a whole lot of space to breathe in.

That... was... amazing. I gotta give you a long, slow clap there, sir.

Showing our ages :P.

And good point Gangrel. All else aside--good, clear communication is always important for a business.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Anyone who mentions playing

Anyone who mentions playing CoH, I tend to think they're showing their age :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Anyone who mentions playing CoH, I tend to think they're showing their age :p

Some of us use our City of Heroes main character as our forum avatar. Just saying ...


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Don't get me wrong. I fully

Don't get me wrong. I fully agree with 90% of the sentiment here. Honestly though, help me to understand how posting an update or current state of the game is taking up or wasting MWM resources...? It's a forum post. It's not like anyone is asking for a 20 minute demo video.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Anyone who mentions playing CoH, I tend to think they're showing their age :p

Some of us use our City of Heroes main character as our forum avatar. Just saying ...

I know. Have my screenies of my main from CoH.

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Geez, this thread died all of

Geez, this thread died all of a sudden

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Geez, this thread died all of a sudden

Well the topic's been pretty well covered already. *shrugs*

Zerohour wrote:

Don't get me wrong. I fully agree with 90% of the sentiment here. Honestly though, help me to understand how posting an update or current state of the game is taking up or wasting MWM resources...? It's a forum post. It's not like anyone is asking for a 20 minute demo video.

It's not really a matter of wasting too much Dev time, at least not entirely. The thing is that having complete, up-to-the minute info about a game's early development sounds good when you say it fast but in reality it doesn't help us all that much and it just opens the Devs up to a "spindoctor sprial" of missed deadlines and confused expectations. It's like the old saying goes you really don't want to "see how the sausage gets made".

Sure it's fine to get occassional updates from MWM when there's something significant to report. But it's essentially pointless to hold them to some kind of "structured report timetable" at this point, if ever.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

It's like the old saying goes you really don't want to "see how the sausage gets made".

Great analogy! And quite accurate if you look at reactions thus far.

Some who will quite happily play CoT once it's finished have looked at the updates and reacted with what is basically the equivalent of "eEEEeeeewwww! What is that?"

It just looks like an unholy, scary mess till right before it's ready to cook. But once it's ready, beer brats for everyone!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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