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Controller Frameworks

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JayBezz
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Controller Frameworks

I am extremely excited by the concept that frameworks will not be directly tied to any one animation or graphic FX, but as a controller it has me thinking..

What are the different play styles that need to be reflected in different frameworks for Controllers? I am going to try to differentiate the focus of each play style but that doesn't mean that any one controller build given to us by the devs should only contain one play style in it, much like my discussion of "how do you make a tank, tank" this is a general conversation about how to make a controller, control:

Movement debuffer - This play style focuses on the enemy action speed. My personal favorite being able to slow an enemy or stop them in their tracks is quite useful. Being able to further slow their attack speed or better yet completely incapacitate enemies ability to cast spells entirely.

Perception debuffer - This is the person who wants to focus on being a trickster. Cast a spell on an enemy and all the sudden it's harder for them to see you. Maybe their accuracy goes down or maybe they can't perceive you as a threat at all even though they're looking right at you. If given a bit more of a push the perception debuffer can have an enemy fight a lamp post and if they're REALLY good they can turn an enemy to fight themselves and others FOR them.

Magnitude debuffer - Some people like weakening their enemies. When the enemy's fire blast that was once a scorching flame comes off more like a flickering candle then nothing makes this player happy. They can also focus on stoping tanks from being good at tanking by striping away at their defenses.** And the best way to stop a healer/protector is to cut down their output. Cutting into the "numbers" of an enemy is a potent tool and is especially popular in endgame grouping.

- -

I know they plan to release the "Debuff/Support" build at launch but if given a choice of frameworks that ask me what my debuff focus would be I would love the option to be a "Debuff/Debuff" character picking powers available from 2 of the three types of debuff trees I listed above.. and it really is a hard choice as to which two Kontrol would pick best.

My fear is that if I am to pick between a debuff pool and a support pool I may not get all the great debuffs I want while being forced to *shudders* help (or hurt) people.

- -

Many frameworks released will likely have pools with hybrids of all the kinds of debuffs.. what play style do you guys enjoy most?

**If there were to be frameworks that focus more heavily on "types" of debuffs in the Controller class I think it's worth considering Offensive Magnitude Debuffing and Defensive Magnitude debuffing TWO SEPERATE FRAMEWORKS but my fear there is that a build focusing on only one side of the magnitude debuffing is only situationally useful in combat.

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JayBezz
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After much consideration I

After much consideration I think i've decided that I want Kontrol to be a Movement Debuff Primary and Perception Debuff Secondary.

Main source of damage I'd like to come from perception debuffs. Forcing a percentage of an opponents outgoing damage to hurt themselves with some sort of "Feedback" power and forcing them to fight each other is much closer to the character concept than debuffing the magnitude of enemies. This comes hard to me because I am a hardcore endgamer and I know magnitude debuffs are so crucial there.. I hope there's some valuable Magnitude debuffs mixed into the other debuff build focuses.

Also it's kind of counter productive to stop an enemy from attacking and having the main source of damage actually be from feedback.. That being said.. it's my concept. I expect that in CoT enemies won't be "perma-stunned" so once they're no longer immobilized I need some kind of backup plan to do some indirect damage and have any chance of "winning" the fight. Plus if I'm not able to stop them from attacking I want to be able to hide in plain sight so a placate (NOT stealth) is very indicative of her ability to turn off the aggression synapses in the enemy brain.

My ideal fighting tactic is to open up with a movement debuff to immobilize their ability to attack then once they can attack I make it hard for them to hit me with perception debuffs. If/when the enemy does land one I wanna make sure to have a feedback to do some damage back at them. This encourages them to aggro me first and take me out because if they fight my friends instead they're just hurting themselves. If they are attacking me or my friends a little too well I'll see if I can't fry their perception and force them to target their allies instead.

I don't know how well that tactic will translate to endgame because many enemies are already not very mobile and it takes a lot of Magnitude to affect the perception of major enemies.. So I accept that my feedback will be my main source of advantage in a boss fight.

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Tiger
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They have mentioned slows,

They have mentioned slows, knock back, a damage over time as secondary effects for powers. I'm not sure if that would also apply to control. I know slows and fear were very helpful due to their handling runners in PvP and Patron Powers were handy because of their high movement suppression. It would be interesting to see how soft controls (slow, fear) would work on top of our control powers. As to -perception, that could be very easily abused in PvP...so I approve! :D

Pbuckley
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Remember Weather control from

Remember Weather control from CoX It was a support power yes. But it was basically just a control power. So look for something like that. I mean I could be wrong but it seems like having a control/control framework would kind-of defeat the whole point of frameworks.

It seems to me Frameworks exist in order for you to augment your already existing capability with something you might not be able to do otherwise, that will help you perform your role better. Like how the Stalwart might get access to melee or assault giving them attacks they can use to help them tank. Or a Scrap, I mean Enforcer might get defense or support abilities to help them stay alive, so they can dish out some damage.

As a commander their will be times soloing or in groups when you'll find it easier to do your job if you had access to some abilities not associated with control powers. That's where your secondary power set comes in.

Good is not something you are, its something you do.

Tibit
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Storm power was fun

Storm power was fun

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Venture
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one of my favourite toons was

one of my favourite toons was my ice/storm Controller: Blizzard.

More so than my main I enjoyed this character, in teams anyway, soloing was a pain!

I just loved the ice animations, all of them!

@jaybezz - my damage soloing was absolutely laughable but, with even just one other team member, we were never really in any danger and able to clear maps quickly. With the numerous holds, sleeps and knock downs (Block of ice & glacier, flash freeze, ice slick) i could lock down 3 or 4 different groups at a time.

That coupled with the -speed from Arctic Air and then the storm summoning powers Steamy Mist, Freezing Rain and snow Storm meant i could essentially control the battlefield for multiple mobs at any one time, i just couldn't hurt them much.

I'm less concerned with the damage elements and more with the control side of things... :)

Comicsluvr
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I agree with Venture except

I agree with Venture except that there has to be a balance between control and damage. I don't want Controllers to have to rely on others to defeat mobs. Yes, if played correctly then Controllers are safer than Blasters but for me leveling speed parity is important. My ultra-tough Tank will take damage all day but dish it out slowly. My Blaster will have to play smarter but he really hurts people. That's fair.

To be honest, I think the Tank and the Controller should have just about the same speed, perhaps a bit slower for the Controller because they tend to have more options. A Tank is, essentially, a melee Controller. Their job is to control the battlefield. However instead of going the Controller route and using powers to make the enemy helpless or less effective, a Tank will simply take the attention on himself.

I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...

JayBezz
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I think in general for

I think in general for leveling speed the lower levels should be about even and act as an introduction to the mechanics you'll be using down the line.. but as you level up .. the DPS should trail off considerably.

This is a major reason I want MPS as a metric for mez so that players don't feel they are left out of the leveling race just because they don't do damage. I'd say a controller at endgame would kill the elite mobs about 4 times slower than any of the DPS models

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Pbuckley
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Shouldn't that depend on the

Shouldn't that depend on the kind of commander being played. I think you should do more or less damage based on framework. and honestly despise any form of metric evaluation like MPS DPS EPS HPS its all stupid and doesn't measure the skill or coordination of the players involved in any significant way. Its the whole reason control isn't in most games nowadays, and is the reason healers have been reduced to heal-bots who don't shield, buff, or cleanse anything. Its counter productive and sucks the fun out of game-play. But thats just my opinion.

Good is not something you are, its something you do.

syntaxerror37
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Pbuckley wrote:
Pbuckley wrote:

...and honestly despise any form of metric evaluation like MPS DPS EPS HPS its all stupid and doesn't measure the skill or coordination of the players involved in any significant way.

Although I do think the players should engage in just playing the game instead of recreational mathematics, the harsh reality is a cold calculated metric is needed to evaluate the power sets against one another. The skill of a player is going to be an issue in live game play, of course, but regardless of their skill level, players should be given sets evaluated and balanced against one another.

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JayBezz
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I completely despise the idea

I completely despise the idea of flat metric status effects. If that is what you're advocating for (and I cannot tell if it is) then I completely stand in opposition

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Fireheart
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One of the things that I

One of the things that I Liked about my Controllers is that, with sufficient Accuracy and Magnitude, I -could- lock down a boss in one shot... for a few seconds, or until a teammate attacked. In those seconds, I could start stacking effects and achieve a true Lock. Thusly, if I played smart, patient, and skillfully, I could take no damage at all, in regular content.

It just took forever.

On a team, I usually had to settle for 'good enough' and space out my attacks, to allow for Recharge. Because a non-Controller just doesn't have the Patience to build that 'true Lock'.

But here's my point, I don't want to -have to- hit the target six times, in order to finally hold them. Controller Powers had different effects, so you could Hold one, Sleep another, and Immobilize the rest. And you had to have that understanding of Magnitude, Enemy Resistance, and Stacking in order to be effective. If I have to work my way up from zero magnitude with every attack/encounter, then it becomes a race between me and the enemy - Mez or Die! I prefer the more relaxed and cerebral method of Controlling.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Pbuckley
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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Pbuckley wrote:
...and honestly despise any form of metric evaluation like MPS DPS EPS HPS its all stupid and doesn't measure the skill or coordination of the players involved in any significant way.

Although I do think the players should engage in just playing the game instead of recreational mathematics, the harsh reality is a cold calculated metric is needed to evaluate the power sets against one another. The skill of a player is going to be an issue in live game play, of course, but regardless of their skill level, players should be given sets evaluated and balanced against one another.

That's not right either. In my opinion power choice should always be about what you find the most interesting, based on theme or game-play, not based on what people think is the most mathematically superior power-set.

Fireheart wrote:

One of the things that I Liked about my Controllers is that, with sufficient Accuracy and Magnitude, I -could- lock down a boss in one shot... for a few seconds, or until a teammate attacked. In those seconds, I could start stacking effects and achieve a true Lock. Thusly, if I played smart, patient, and skillfully, I could take no damage at all, in regular content.
It just took forever.
On a team, I usually had to settle for 'good enough' and space out my attacks, to allow for Recharge. Because a non-Controller just doesn't have the Patience to build that 'true Lock'.
But here's my point, I don't want to -have to- hit the target six times, in order to finally hold them. Controller Powers had different effects, so you could Hold one, Sleep another, and Immobilize the rest. And you had to have that understanding of Magnitude, Enemy Resistance, and Stacking in order to be effective. If I have to work my way up from zero magnitude with every attack/encounter, then it becomes a race between me and the enemy - Mez or Die! I prefer the more relaxed and cerebral method of Controlling.
Be Well!
Fireheart

I totally agree! However I think if some people want the option to stack up their mezes to a more powerful CC they should have that option. I could see the power-set that ice will be under being like that.

Good is not something you are, its something you do.

syntaxerror37
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Pbuckley wrote:
Pbuckley wrote:

That's not right either. In my opinion power choice should always be about what you find the most interesting, based on theme or game-play, not based on what people think is the most mathematically superior power-set.

I agree 100%. When I said there need to be metrics to judge and balance powers on, I really mean they are for the developers and possibly beta testers. in a live game normal players shouldn't be bothering with it.

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Pbuckley
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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Pbuckley wrote:
That's not right either. In my opinion power choice should always be about what you find the most interesting, based on theme or game-play, not based on what people think is the most mathematically superior power-set.
I agree 100%. When I said there need to be metrics to judge and balance powers on, I really mean they are for the developers and possibly beta testers. in a live game normal players shouldn't be bothering with it.

But sadly their will always be players who will. I get what your saying though.

Good is not something you are, its something you do.

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Thinking about my favorite

Thinking about my favorite control abilities in the game, I would have to say controlling movement is my preferred style. I'm not sure If i would always classify mine as a debuff though. To me, the best control abilities (outside of Hold abilities) were Telekinesis, Wormhole and most Time abilities). With those, I was a master of the battlefield. At any given moment, the enemies were where I wanted them when I wanted them there, allowing for my allies to take advantage of various targets' positions.

My main was .Foresight (With Mind/Time). I loved it.

-The best way to win is to make your enemy do it for you.

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I highly doubt they will ever

I highly doubt they will ever make a classification that is unable to solo content, so the debuff primary/debuff secondary will never happen. The risk of people not feeling "Superpowered" while playing their "Hero/Villains" would be far too great.

My preferred Commander (controller) playstyle for team play is being able to totally incapacitate enemies, then debuff, so other teammates can focus on damage.

On the other hand, for solo play, I want powersets with at least several damaging attacks. My Earth/Storm/Stone Mastery Controller in CoH was able to dish out severe damage when needed and in solo play, while locking down most enemies at the same time.

I'm sure the devs are hard at work making different power sets that will make everyone happy. Whether people want damage heavy, debuff heavy, or heal heavy secondaries, everyone's playstyle will eventually be covered.

Also looking forward to seeing how masteries will work different than just "rounding out your character" like they did in CoH/CoV.

Ya know, they say never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is on occasion hilarious. -Malcolm Reynolds