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Discuss: When Fist Meets Face - Momentum

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Shadow Elusive
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Discuss: When Fist Meets Face - Momentum

A nice juicy piece of gameplay for you this week. Tell us about it!

original update: http://cityoftitans.com/content/when-fist-meets-face-momentum

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Pretty epic! This Momentum

Pretty epic! This Momentum idea really sets the bar for encounters! I looks like it'll make fights more interesting and unpredictable, making you think on your feet. It's a nice breather from the norm. Looks like kiting is going to become very popular, though.

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I *think* I really like this.

I *think* I really like this. It's a bit (just a bit, I know) like a MUCH more flexible and better version of Supercharge in DCUO--which was one of the few things that I actually liked about that game other than their travel powers.

I'd like to see Momentum actually make powers BIGGER in some real way that makes it more epic looking and feeling--like making AOE's hit larger, truly massive numbers of enemies like the Incarnate powers could, or make Knockback just launch people for miles--and also actually make the animation for the power a "bigger" version of the normal animation.

That would be sweet.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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ohhh.. Its like charging my

ohhh.. Its like charging my Super Bar in Street Fighter. :o

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Mmm.. I'm already imagining

Mmm.. I'm already imagining ways my controller will be able to drain enemy momentum with my crowd control

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I *think* I really like this. It's a bit (just a bit, I know) like a MUCH more flexible and better version of Supercharge in DCUO--which was one of the few things that I actually liked about that game other than their travel powers.
I'd like to see Momentum actually make powers BIGGER in some real way that makes it more epic looking and feeling--like making AOE's hit larger, truly massive numbers of enemies like the Incarnate powers could, or make Knockback just launch people for miles--and also actually make the animation for the power a "bigger" version of the normal animation.
That would be sweet.

What it allows is for developers to "allow" for such bigger powers, by having a system in place to restrict them - allowing more balance options.

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My first thought was of last

My first thought was of last night's Flash.^_^

My second was of Rage in World of Warcrack, and similar mechanics in other games.

I can't wait to see how it gets implemented here!

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Not necessarily. YOUR

Not necessarily. YOUR momentum will build up more slowly that way too. Basically for those builds who can take getting in the boss's face, it's a strategy with rewards and that can still win the fight for you. Yeah, he'll build up momentum - but so will you. And you're also epic once you're charged.

Lets try imagining a rough scenario. Four teammates. We've got a tank and two ranged guys and a controller. Two ranged might kite to do damage constantly without raising momentum much. The controller would work on making sure the tank had it good, while the tank built up momentum for a big attack. An enemy's momentum bar will be scaled for the size of the encounter, so this strategy could work very well. And that's just a really rough, vague conjecture.

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Yeah it took us a while to

Yeah it took us a while to really get a grasp on what Momentum can be used for even after the concept was first brought up. There was this kind of light bulb moment when we took a look at our Masteries and saw how some could use Momentum quite nicely. That bulb got brighter when we looked at some of our planned power sets and how they'll take further shape within our power building system and how Momentum could be used. As Tyche said, it "allows" us to do certain things and set up restrictions in other areas to give us further balancing options.


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Makes sense. :) Thanks for

Makes sense. :) Thanks for the clarification!

~Sol

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yeah it took us a while to really get a grasp on what Momentum can be used for even after the concept was first brought up. There was this kind of light bulb moment when we took a look at our Masteries and saw how some could use Momentum quite nicely. That bulb got brighter when we looked at some of our planned power sets and how they'll take further shape within our power building system and how Momentum could be used. As Tyche said, it "allows" us to do certain things and set up restrictions in other areas to give us further balancing options.

Yup. The Masteries immediately came to mind as I was reading the update.
Seems like this mechanic will have a nice impact on making the game's repeatability constantly enjoyable as well.

The Alignment system, deep costume and powers personalization, Masteries, momentum...CoT will never be the same game twice. And that's based on only what's been announced so far!

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Mmm.. I'm already imagining ways my controller will be able to drain enemy momentum with my crowd control

oOOooooooh. Sounds like an interesting potential tactical dynamic.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

What it allows is for developers to "allow" for such bigger powers, by having a system in place to restrict them - allowing more balance options.

I see. And it's flexibility allows awesome possibilities to create fun dynamics in many different ways for both players and NPC's, as well as to keep things (relatively) nice and easy to balance and manage.

It really is a exiting mechanic. I want it NAOWUH!!!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I like it. I love the idea

I like it. I love the idea that an NPC opponent may develop a "smarter" AI over the course of an encounter, either making a boss much more dangerous, or even allowing a lower level thug to become a serious threat if not dealt with early enough.

I could also see tactician style player characters getting access to higher quality meta-data (range, health bars, strengths and weaknesses, and so on) as the encounter develops...

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This mechanic is...really

This mechanic is...really rather interesting. The fact that this opens up the ability to ramp up certain powers depending on the situation makes it sound quite fun. Definitely getting even more excited as I keep hearing about these ideas you all are putting out for this. Keep up the good work!

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Nice. Great write-up.

Nice. Great write-up. Sounds like a welcome evolution of the CoX Inherent Power feature.

Giving super-NPCs game-changing intelligent momentum... on Day 1? Holy smoke, I hope I get some kind of knob to turn from "I'm too young to die" to "Hurt me plenty".

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Heck, they don't even have to

Heck, they don't even have to be that smart - if you keep their momentum low, you're not doing that much damage to them either, so you have a long, drawn out run-and gun. But if you just charge in and whale on them... is that a RAGENUKEFIST in their pocket?

Hope you can survive that, chum.

So one enemy can be challenging but possible for all player types - heck, crank Momentum up and maybe the enemy loses powers as you overwhelm him. Or he switches from blasts to holds.

Heck, we could even trigger it to summon reinforcements.

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BeeTeeDub, the best part of

BeeTeeDub, the best part of the update...

Is it your lyrical flow?

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Hi

Hi

Will it be a linear scale of improvement on an attribute or could it also as it fills up give other special bonuses at set milestones.

So in this example every time the momentum bar passes a yellow line another bonus is triggered?

Great update, very interesting.

Cheers

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Depends on the power set or

Depends on the power set or mastery! It is a bar that gets bigger.

We plan to start simply, and keep developing the concept.

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"A bar that gets bigger"...

"A bar that gets bigger"... without walking towards it!

Sounds interesting for sure. I particularly like the idea of controllers messing with momentum.

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It reminds me a little of

It reminds me a little of Dominator's Innate Domination.

Two small concerns I have.

1) Not everybody likes the Brute "chasing Rage" dynamic, so if it started to feel like that but as a universal game mechanic for every class, that could be bad.

2) You said that it builds more for "in your face" fighting than other styles. That's great for me, cause that's how I play, but does that mean a Ranger wouldn't get Momentum from a constant ranged onslaught, or a controller get if for maintaining lock down? Or even a healer for healing like crazy?

BTW, I like this idea and I'm not trying to attack it, just to understand it better.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I did not, in fact, say in

I did not, in fact, say in your face would build up more than other styles. I said an in your face throwdown would generate more than 'run and gun', because of all the pauses in the second versus the unending onslaught of the first. jOf course ranged attacks build momentum, and if your blaster's style is 'stand and deliver', he will do just as well as the in your face brawler. Same for constant healing, etc. Your battle ROLE builds momentum.

In the end, if one style builds more without sufficient potential consequence, it just means the devs will be taking note of that in playtesting and making some adjustments.

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Ah, my misunderstanding.

Ah, my misunderstanding. When you said "kite to do damage constantly without raising much momentum", I thought you meant those doing the kiting wouldn't build as much Momentum for themselves even though they were doing damage constantly.

Anyway, it sounds like the mechanic will have more than enough flexibility to allow the Devs to handle any unintended consequences.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Exactly. Even if it ends up

Exactly. Even if it ends up imbalanced between styles at first, it wont' stay that way. Balancing these things always requires playtesting. At this stage, it's all about making sure you have the tools to adjust. The Momentum bar is supremely adjustable.

When I said that about blasters, I meant they'd be aiming for steady but lower key damage, specifically. Deliberately not contributing over much to the momentum bar.

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Now this sounds like

Now this sounds like something interesting!

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One concept that came up

One concept that came up tonight was using momentum on a mind controlled or confused target. If _the mind controlled target_ enters a battle rage (gets their momentum up over a level) they might break free of control. Sounds very Wolverine to me.

Not all power sets will use momentum. Not all power sets will want to have high momentum - maybe an ice set does the best when the character is all chill, and momentum is below 50%.

Maybe a luck based power set causes good luck (Buffs to friends) below 50% and bad luck (debuffs to enemies) above 50%. (there is currently no luck based power set.)

Momentum is not inherently attached to any meaning - and that means we can use it to do anything.

(The first power sets are designed, but we fully expect to keep adding new ones and redesigning the existing ones until late beta. Why limit ourselves when we get a good idea?)

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

(there is currently no luck based power set.)

Well, then, I think you should put that on your to-do list. ^_^

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I think that for most game

I think that for most game mechanics gaining Momentum needs to be an inherent positive and rare negative (balanced against the positives it gets).

Just my 2 cents

Perhaps a "chill" set could focus on staying ABOVE a that threshold of 50% because that represents their "coolness". How they are gained will differ role to role.. maybe "Chill People" get a boost of 40% just going into combat but gain the rest of their momentum very slowly.. know what I'm saying?

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Interesting, very interesting

Interesting, very interesting.

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Well, yes, most of the time

Well, yes, most of the time momentum will be a good thing. I'm just saying there's nothing forcing us to design that way. Lots of fun potential!

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I like the idea of momentum.

I like the idea of momentum. It's like creating a power modifier module that is reusable throughout the game and defined by the player for avatars and developers for NPCs. I love the idea of NPCs making combat decisions on momentum's use. Finally, allowing players to define the momentum effects is a great tool for power and play style personalization.

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love this.

love this.
great idea that i think will add a lot to the game.
you guys just keep amazing me each time, keep it up :)

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Momentium. Some things were

Momentium.

The maddest science. Made from powdered superheroes.

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This is really interesting!

This is really interesting! Sounds to me like it builds on the model we're used to instead of scrapping it and replacing it with something else, which is a good thing. I'm not quite clear on what exactly keeps the Mom bar building up: is it just frequent using of powers? Seems to me you have more in mind than our just madly clicking icons/pressing buttons. I'm picturing more of the Arkham series' freeflow system, but I'm not quite sure how it would work in a combat system like CoT's.

If there's any minor concern it would be the thing that Empyrean mentioned: I wouldn't want all my characters to feel like Brutes or Doms in feeling obligated to constantly chase that bar. But it sounds like you're already considering this point.

Sol wrote:

This Momentum idea really sets the bar for encounters!

I see what you did there. :-)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Random thoughts from too late

Random thoughts from too late at night on things it could affect. None of these are official, I'm not even working in Gameplay right now, this is just a babbling sheep.

Float pattern: better X tied to current level, a la Brute damage, but could also be better damage reduction, recharge rate, mez resist, mez strength, heals, movement speed, AoE size, toon size, range, base melee range, etc... almost any continuously-variable property, really.

Tidal pattern: fill-and-empty, a la Dominators

Eruption pattern: classic "limit break", which can then be pretty much literally anything one triggered (similar to tidal, but once blown starts recharging instantly, so more of a sawtooth waveform)

See-saw / yo-yo pattern: reward *changes* in momentum rather than momentum itself. Calculus is fun! More seriously, consider that it would open up a 'tempo' based approach, which actually is the basis for several real fighting styles.

Pattern forgiveness: could allow those prone to hitting the wrong thing extra chance(s) / time / etc. to correct the mistake when using a pattern/combo-based power set.

Flair: bedazzle them. Sunglasses at night optional, unless traveling to Chicago.

Pump Up The Volume: momentum charged by specific attacks or actions, drained by others (think 'set point' and energy bar mechanic in CO for a very rough notion)

Temporary Level in Badass: what's that? Your squishy just got all the love? Walk out of the flames and return the favor. Possibly followed promptly by a faceplant, but hey, you got the action shot, and that's what matters, right?

And then there's the Horde approach for those who have minions. Lots and lots of minions. LOTS and lots of them. So many... ROLL TIDE (of killer fluffy bunnies!)
No, seriously, if you tell certain LARPers they're up against bunnies, they will start running before you finish saying it. One HP each? Only one little problem... "this is the spawn that never ends... it just goes on and on my *glurk*"

Okay, I suspect we won't be allowed to subject folks to that one. Maybe. Probably.

Then, of course, there's always "a word that is trademarked but refers to a far older concept of the irresistable force hitting the not-actually-immovable object."

As for villains, remember that "adaptive" is not actually necessarily any more lethal than otherwise, just likely to be more *interesting*. The AI may be stuck between choosing between keeping the ongoing defense that is keeping you from melting his face off, or being able to actually strike out hard enough to do some real damage. You know, if you've got a history with this guy, he might just take it a bit... personally. Maybe he's tired of never getting in the last word. Or maybe he hasn't really quite patched up from the last face-slagging you gave him. Could tend to influence his decision on how to go. Or strategy might require that your tactical approach take into consideration whether this is the sort of villain who would put the poison into his opponent's cup, or his own. Or possibly in the goldfish bowl.

Now, if you've selected the "Make me cry" difficulty level and turned the AI up to "Fiendish" and you're up against someone who raises their momentum by maintaining a target lock and charging, only to then get a massive spike damage burst when they fire an actual attack -- you know, a sniping sort -- then you did kind of ask to die tired.

Edit: P.S: I personally assure those who want to be able to not worry about running around like made that they won't be stuck with that. Not unless Cabbit wants terrible things to happen to his ears. As Dechs said, Bots/Traps was the "thinking man's game." But man could it put on a nice light show when it got rolling. Even after they nerfed Force Feedback. Wait, did we just discover another place it might be hiding? Good question...

I've eaten, and it is after midnight. Hmmm. Definitely time for bed, especially since the frogurt is also cursed.


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Whoa, I didn't till now grasp

Whoa, I didn't till now grasp the true potential of this mechanic. Thanks for your late night post-prandial ramblings, DSFH!

DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

Flair: bedazzle them. Sunglasses at night optional...

Now I want a Corey Hart power set.

Character Name: Komrade Kiev
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Just a couple questions about

Just a couple questions about momentum. You've mentioned that it will be a slow build up over the course of a fight. So is this something that's only meant to come into play during boss encounters? Because I'm just wondering what would be stopping players from farming momentum by street sweeping or what have you, and then jumping into an instance and levelling the place for quick xp.

Secondly, how will this mechanic work if/when there is pvp? Instanced pvp a la BGs in Warcraft might not be as difficult to manage, but I can already see the disaster in free flowing world pvp when you get a few max level players who are all jacked up on momentum just laying waste to people 10 levels below who are trying to quest.

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, yes, most of the time momentum will be a good thing. I'm just saying there's nothing forcing us to design that way. Lots of fun potential!

I can certainly see that some power sets may gain more benefit from Reserves, so they'd be better served by building up their Momentum and then putting that into their Reserves rather than going all blaze of glory. Of course this would require a method to bleed Momentum off into Reserves during the fight, otherwise such a character could go an entire AV fight without benefiting from this mechanic.

Quote:

But it's not just about how the supervillain will burn his momentum. Its momentum levels will affect other things too. Their tactics, which powers they use in what combinations, their entire style of combat will respond to their momentum. ... Run and gun fights produce less momentum than in-your face battles, resulting in your opponent responding appropriately. While it will take much playtesting to perfect, the enemy AI can be programmed to use momentum to change its reactions, attack chains, and power combinations, all to match the fight at hand.

This part made me wonder if it is intended - or even possible - for enemies to change how they use their Momentum based on how they are attacked? For example, if the supervillain is being attacked by someone with controls or who engages in kiting they might use a Momentum effect to increase their mobility, as opposed to simply hitting harder against an opponent who uses a tank-and-spank approach.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Sol wrote:
This Momentum idea really sets the bar for encounters!

I see what you did there. :-)

Ha! Glad one of us did!

~Sol

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

You've mentioned that it will be a slow build up over the course of a fight. So is this something that's only meant to come into play during boss encounters? Because I'm just wondering what would be stopping players from farming momentum by street sweeping or what have you, and then jumping into an instance and levelling the place for quick xp.

Sounds like Ye Olde Fury Bar....

:P

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Conundrum said it best. Is

Conundrum said it best. Is that how Fury worked? Momentum can be much more powerful than Fury, but the answer is the same anyway: it's a simple matter of controlling how fast momentum drops off, as well as how fast or slow it builds up.

As for PvP, I'm not sure how the scenario you're describing is any different from what would happen in PvP zones anyway. Max players can and sometimes will bully low level ones. The solution has nothing to do with Momentum and everything to do with restricting PvP itself. It has been our stance from the beginning that there will be no such thing as involuntary PvP - nobody can be attacked who has not opted to be attackable. I believe the current approach being planned involves PvP instances. So if you want to do something without PvP you just do it in a non-PvP world instance. But don't quote me on that, I'm the Community Manager not a gameplay dev :D.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

This part made me wonder if it is intended - or even possible - for enemies to change how they use their Momentum based on how they are attacked? For example, if the supervillain is being attacked by someone with controls or who engages in kiting they might use a Momentum effect to increase their mobility, as opposed to simply hitting harder against an opponent who uses a tank-and-spank approach.

From a technical theoretical standpoint, anything that an NPC can 'observe' (more specifically, any information available as an input) *can* be used to control such things. Which of them *will* be used it something that is subject to at least a handful of major factors that we don't have anywhere near enough data to have a handle on -- yet.

As any tabletop DM worth their salt can tell you, the question generally isn't how to make opponents smart. It is about how to make them dumb *in the right ways* so that players still find them an interesting challenge without being overwhelmed by them.

And for the folks who really, truly want to take on nasties that will make the bulk of human opponents seem trivial by comparison, and will use every nasty trick in the book, with the gloves completely off? We're intending to try to keep you covered, too, it just won't be the default setup. Of course, it is worth being aware that they may be prone to writing new chapters...


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I am with Empyrean, I think I

I am with Empyrean, I think I like this idea of momentum. At least I like the initial concept and possibilities of momentum. I was recently playing CO again and was reminded why I left that game. Part of it was teaming - or the complete lack thereof - too solo-focused. One of the core reasons is... you never really feel super in that game unless you create specific builds. Now... you can send bad guys flying across the room, but when they all come running back at you with nearly all of their HP left, you're not really super powered... you're just super annoying (like that weird Superman film he throws from his symbol- cracks me up). CO had created their energy pools similar to this, you had to build them up throughout the fight (albeit not slowly, but repeatedly).

I get that every game has a balancing mechanism, but it should not interfere with (and hopefully this one supports) feeling super powered. I like the ideas DeathSheepFromHell was adding in - the idea of different powersets leveraging momentum in different ways (pure momentum, momentum change resistance, inertia, keeping momentum pool filled for bonuses, keeping momentum pool low for bonuses). Just adding different dynamics depending on roles/ATs/power sets.

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Just a couple questions about momentum. You've mentioned that it will be a slow build up over the course of a fight. So is this something that's only meant to come into play during boss encounters? Because I'm just wondering what would be stopping players from farming momentum by street sweeping or what have you, and then jumping into an instance and levelling the place for quick xp.
Secondly, how will this mechanic work if/when there is pvp? Instanced pvp a la BGs in Warcraft might not be as difficult to manage, but I can already see the disaster in free flowing world pvp when you get a few max level players who are all jacked up on momentum just laying waste to people 10 levels below who are trying to quest.

Different power sets and different Masteries can be set to use Momentum differently. Some sets can me made to build momentum quickly, and the Momentum bleed offset to maintain parity with other forms of momentum bleed.

Just because someone manages to max out momentum doesn't mean they can maintain it.

With regards to pvp, Shadow Elusive is correct, there will be no mixing of pve and pvp unless a player wants to do both - that is enter the pvp instance and try to do pve content - at which point they should know the risks. And that's assuming there will always be combat between large level disparities.


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One other question--and this

One other question--and this is based on me not being sure about some things, so it may be a stupid one. And it may be something that isn't decided yet and so it's too early to even ask.

But, here I go anyway :P.

Will Momentum be instead of, in addition to, or what "powers", "innate" Classification or Mastery traits /powers. What will the relationship be between these things and how will they interact?

In other words, if someone wanted to "spec" like a scrapper--melee damage/defense with increased crit ability coming either from their Classification or choice of Mastery (I'm unsure here where it would come from), would their enhanced crit chance come from their Momentum, or will Momentum be what determines how much crit chance they get from their Classification/Mastery, or will Momentum be a totally separate mechanic?

As I said, I know I may be totally missing something, or it may be too early to even ask such a specific question.

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Heeehhh, so you could arrange

Heeehhh, so you could arrange to block an engagement between to players with a sufficient level gap? Potentially at least?

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

One other question--and this is based on me not being sure about some things, so it may be a stupid one. And it may be something that isn't decided yet and so it's too early to even ask.
But, here I go anyway :P.
Will Momentum be instead of, in addition to, or what "powers", "innate" Classification or Mastery traits /powers. What will the relationship be between these things and how will they interact?
In other words, if someone wanted to "spec" like a scrapper--melee damage/defense with increased crit ability coming either from their Classification or choice of Mastery (I'm unsure here where it would come from), would their enhanced crit chance come from their Momentum, or will Momentum be what determines how much crit chance they get from their Classification/Mastery, or will Momentum be a totally separate mechanic?
As I said, I know I may be totally missing something, or it may be too early to even ask such a specific question.

Ok so a few examples of the flexibility in our design. Take generic melee power set with an attack intended to have increased crit rate. We can build that directly into the power so that it always has its increased crit rate.

Now take set number two and use a momentum amount as a gate to provide an increased critical chance, if the momentum requirement is really high and not easily attained, then most likely the crit effect of the attack would be significant. Over time these two sets may be determined to both perform within expected bounds of performance, one provides a more constant rate of critical effect while one provides less frequent but. Ore likely to occur critical effect.
One step further, the momentum requirement can be used to provide a guaranteed crit,

But here is the thing, we don't have to use momentum for every nuance of combat. Right now we have 3 Mastery powers for each classification and only looking to use a form of momentum use in one of each. First, to keep things simple, second because some things don't gel with momentum use, thirdly we need to see how things perform before we start getting more experimental.


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Awesome. It's like having

Awesome. It's like having multiple dials for the player to dial in their perfect playstyle and for the devs to dial things in for balance.

Excitement... building... anticipation... reaching critical levels...

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This sounds super awesome and

This sounds super awesome and a lot of fun. Random thought on it: Will team/group dynamics play a role in the PC's personal momentum bar as well or just the NPC's?

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Silent Dream wrote:
Silent Dream wrote:

This sounds super awesome and a lot of fun. Random thought on it: Will team/group dynamics play a role in the PC's personal momentum bar as well or just the NPC's?

Hmm, any chance of Team Momentum? A separate dial to allow effects/powers based on the team as a whole?

For bad guys too. Imagine having these tactical choices:
1) Pound on the boss to take out the biggest threat first. But his minions, while not doing much damage, are building up Team Momentum.
2) Sweep clear the minions, but giving the boss free reign to cause trouble.

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We haven't planned on basing

We haven't planned on basing performance on team based momentum. That can start to edge on preferred build teaming in a way that can start to divide players. Momentum is specifically tied to the user (character / A.I.).


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We haven't planned on basing performance on team based momentum. That can start to edge on preferred build teaming in a way that can start to divide players. Momentum is specifically tied to the user (character / A.I.).

Good point. Especially since Momentum will affect different powers differently. Some characters might want one mode vs another mode.

Not such an issue with NPC teams, but maybe the functionality can be captured in the boss' Momentum. The mechanic I'm looking for is that NPCs can affect each others' Momentums in complicated ways.

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It's a meter. This means it

It's a meter. This means it can be buffed or drained by outside forces.

Man, people are going to really like our variant of /kin, aren't they?
(No /kin set is currently scheduled for deployment- it's too powerful right now.)

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Momentum, Should be called

Momentum, Should be called Titanium the forces that allows us to perform Titanic actions.
This is City of Titans after all.

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Call it Determination.

Call it Determination.

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Tightness.

Tightness.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Maybe a luck based power set causes good luck (Buffs to friends) below 50% and bad luck (debuffs to enemies) above 50%. (there is currently no luck based power set.)

Is this where a bunch of rakes appear on the ground so as soon as your foe moves, he steps on one and is smacked in the face then stunned, stumbles around then steps on another, etc, etc.?

Note: This could be tied into a combo mechanic where the player hits their pirouette power, dances through the rake field unharmed and it has a taunt effect on the mob.

/e looneytunes

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I like that there's a third

I like that there's a third "bar" besides HP and endo for everybody. This adds a dimension that sounds like fun and opens up design space.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Man, people are going to really like our variant of /kin, aren't they?
(No /kin set is currently scheduled for deployment- it's too powerful right now.)

See my reply to your comment about luck-based sets, above. ^_^

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It's clear why they picked

It's clear why they picked Momentum as a name. They want what it represents for your character to be as open-ended as possible, so that it can be Determination if you want it to be, or Titanium, or whatever you want it to represent for your Hero/Villain.

It's hard to pick a truly neutral, open-ended name. Momentum is a a good non-specific metaphorical choice. It's difficult to come up with an equally good open-ended name--much less a better one.

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hmm.. so like a a Blaster

hmm.. So, some powers (when you hold down the button for a few seconds more) will drain your Momentum allot more than it would normally? :o

So a blaster can use that level 2 knock-back, which only KB's a foe 3 feet away, can use the Momentum to KB a foe 6 to 8 feet away now? :)

It seems like Momentum Fills Up and Drains allot faster (for some AT's) than the Endurance bar does?
As long as its Not like Champions Online Endurance bar thing.... where you have to use allot of Light Attacks to build up Endurance before you can use a powerful attack. I hate that about Champions Online! >:(

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It also works because its

It also works because its initial effect was the bleed off into Reserves as it returned to 0. Keeping up the pace of combat doesn't afford much opportunity to build reserves, but after combat winds down, your reserves build up.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

It also works because its initial effect was the bleed off into Reserves as it returned to 0. Keeping up the pace of combat doesn't afford much opportunity to build reserves, but after combat winds down, your reserves build up.

Quote:

But it's not a total loss - Momentum bleed-off turns into Reserves – that extra jolt of willpower, of capability, of heroic might which allows you to temporarily boost your abilities over and beyond what even your powers grant for a brief moment. Those of you from our old home know how inspiring this can be (Reserves are going to be discussed in detail in a future update.).

OK so Reserves are what we are calling the CoH Inspirations. Cool.
Momentum when it is not used (and not being added to) will convert into a Reserve(s) - Im guessing of a random type and 1 Reserve per x Momentum points "consumed". Extra Cool.

In fact this entire update is Uber Cool!!!

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Lots of potential here...

Lots of potential here...

Will be interesting to see how the Reserves will work, and whether we can choose a preferred type of reserves to build up. Say, a defensive reserve to help start the next fight (or two or three) when I'm expecting a heavy enemy alpha strike...or a damage reserve if I've built to rely on a quick takedown of minions with an opening AoE followed by a one-on-one boss battle.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

We haven't planned on basing performance on team based momentum. That can start to edge on preferred build teaming in a way that can start to divide players. Momentum is specifically tied to the user (character / A.I.).

I would point out that there is no theoretical reason why this needs to be strictly true, although it does open the door to a lot more complications and should probably only be seriously considered after a couple rounds of tuning the "primary" form have happened with real play-test grade feedback.

As an example, lots of folks wanted to have a Kin/* defender (or at least someone with Speed Boost, but Fulcrum Shift was just insane when done right) along. But you certainly didn't have to do it that way, and lots of teams didn't have anyone like that and still rolled through content without breaking much of a sweat.

I would see "manipulating momentum in a team setting" to be more plausible than having a true "team momentum", and still allowing NPCs with the appropriate powers to be dangerous due to it, etc.


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Hmm... I wonder... how much

Hmm... I wonder... how much effort would it be to make a Node Based Editor for us to setup our Pet AI... and use the same Node Based Editor in-house to setup an Enemy AI. Sorta like what Matinee does, but very limited.

Plus side would be, you can change the Enemy AI while still in the mission while still running the game.. without having to Stop.. go back to Matinee.. change one setting... recompile.. reStart the game and then the mission and check the changes made. Might shave off allot of time later when testing new features.

A very simple node based editor could help here... plus... later, it might be repurposed in a number of ways.. one being Pet AI for players to tinker with. :D

ex (Blockie.io): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9b3fusGUFU

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DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

I would see "manipulating momentum in a team setting" to be more plausible than having a true "team momentum", and still allowing NPCs with the appropriate powers to be dangerous due to it, etc.

My opinion? Even buffers are so concerned about what their own character is doing that watching the team momentum or affecting the team's momentum in any given situation may not have the endorphin payoff as an action taken by the player themselves. Keeping momentum to how my own character reacts is plenty enough for me to get excited.

I guess it could just be me but most gamers I feel are self-interested and want their own world of bad-assery

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There is a difference in

There is a difference in providing powers that affect the momentum of team members and basing effects on the combined momentum of a team. I'm fine with the first, Leary of the second.


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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

OK so Reserves are what we are calling the CoH Inspirations. Cool.

Actually, the Inspirations equivalent will be called boosts (as per the glossary).

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More potential fun for well

More potential fun for well-coordinated SGs/teams.

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

DeathSheepFromHell wrote:
I would see "manipulating momentum in a team setting" to be more plausible than having a true "team momentum", and still allowing NPCs with the appropriate powers to be dangerous due to it, etc.

My opinion? Even buffers are so concerned about what their own character is doing that watching the team momentum or affecting the team's momentum in any given situation may not have the endorphin payoff as an action taken by the player themselves. Keeping momentum to how my own character reacts is plenty enough for me to get excited.
I guess it could just be me but most gamers I feel are self-interested and want their own world of bad-assery

I can play it either way. Sometimes I enjoy focusing on mine own actions (scrapperlock4life :D ). But sometimes I like to play more cerebrally and keep my minions teammates going strong. We got to have room for both play styles, and between.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
OK so Reserves are what we are calling the CoH Inspirations. Cool.
Actually, the Inspirations equivalent will be called boosts (as per the glossary).

It got changed.


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Huh. Definitely sounds like

Huh. Definitely sounds like Reserves will be considerably different from Inspirations.

Is boost back to being the name for the enhancement equivalent or is it entirely off the table, for now?

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So will some player builds

So will some player builds have the ability to drain momentum from an Elite Boss in a fight? Perhaps by having a controller-type use holds? Or some other mechanism? Will that work if a controller is holding the Boss, and the melee team-mates are attacking the Boss at the same time?

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Just random suggestion, being

Just random suggestion, being straight forward, should make it so we can change the appearance of our powers such as a darkness to it or really bright.

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@Darth Fez:

@Darth Fez:
Boosts was at the time the term used for our enhancement system then the inspiration system as Augments and Refinements were designed. Right now the "boosts" doesn't have an official designation though I have several possible placements to bring up when we get to different parts of the game.

@ Consultant:
Momentum is primarily based on the actions of the user, so a hold preventing actions limits momentum gain. Its possible to use being attacked to gain moment as well, and if that were applied to NPCs then if one were held and attacked it may gain momentum which could be used with a threshold to allow the NPC to break free of the hold but thats a bit off from where we are at so don't get too used to that.

Certainly though it is possible that Momentum can be buffed and debuffed and a control power may carry with it a momentum debuff effect.

@ Valor: power customization is part of our core design concept.


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"From an old friend", "old

"From an old friend", "old home" and "Trusting in the will of the cards" lol love the refrences, and I like how you intended it to be so thematically open for the user to RP. I use to do the same with END in COH. So does that mean the AT/Play style closest to Brutes won't get their own rage bar and that their AT will simply use Momentum differently?

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
OK so Reserves are what we are calling the CoH Inspirations. Cool.
Actually, the Inspirations equivalent will be called boosts (as per the glossary).

Actually we need to update the glossary. Boosts did not resonate with people, so they were renamed reserves.

They do not work exactly like inspirations did. Functionally, the CoH Inspirations system was what would be called Potions in fantasy MMO's. This is not a bad design, but it is not as flexible as we want it. I can't go into detail on them at the moment, honestly because they're still under a lot of design work, but the goal for us is that instead of getting some random drop if you have inventory space, you get to be more selective in precisely what you have in reserve. Now, getting to that point, that's the tricky bit.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

@Darth Fez:
Boosts was at the time the term used for our enhancement system then the inspiration system as Augments and Refinements were designed. Right now the "boosts" doesn't have an official designation though I have several possible placements to bring up when we get to different parts of the game.

Cool. Thanks, Tannim222.

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Chance Jackson wrote:
Chance Jackson wrote:

"From an old friend", "old home" and "Trusting in the will of the cards" lol love the refrences, and I like how you intended it to be so thematically open for the user to RP. I use to do the same with END in COH. So does that mean the AT/Play style closest to Brutes won't get their own rage bar and that their AT will simply use Momentum differently?

Precisely the idea, same with the fans of the old Dominator.

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

So will some player builds have the ability to drain momentum from an Elite Boss in a fight? Perhaps by having a controller-type use holds? Or some other mechanism? Will that work if a controller is holding the Boss, and the melee team-mates are attacking the Boss at the same time?

Maybe.... *looks around to see if he is being observed by any attack ninjas*

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Chance Jackson wrote:
Chance Jackson wrote:

"From an old friend", "old home" and "Trusting in the will of the cards" lol love the refrences, and I like how you intended it to be so thematically open for the user to RP. I use to do the same with END in COH. So does that mean the AT/Play style closest to Brutes won't get their own rage bar and that their AT will simply use Momentum differently?

It is more like the Mastery that works like Fury did will use Momentum as its gauge.


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When mentioning Reserves it

When mentioning Reserves it makes me thing of something like this:

Hmmm... does this mean if you target another player, you can see their Reserves?

Or is it always visible in a MiniSized form..
..so teammates know what AoE Buffs to use to Boost the overall teams Reserves before/during AV battles?

or even smaller?

Zoomed in 400%


or

LeadWanderer
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Can we have a system by which

Can we have a system by which staying in motion builds momentum? I mean, the pun asside and intended, but it would be neat to gain momentum by being fast and 'light' on your feet.

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My -2 cents, two questions,

My -2 cents, two questions, both jumping past the first couple issues after launch:

1) How would MMs apply momentum?

Ik CoH had an inherent power for Masters (MMs) that made pets better w/in 50m or something, but it was rather lame. I could imagine simply increasing pet damage, accuracy, resistance, etc, but that's not much different from CoH. It could take the place of empowering pets: they could gain functionality with Momentum. Idk

2) How would player-created NPCs be able to apply momentum?

Yeah, jumping way forward :p I'm wondering vaguely how flexibly one could create a Momentum-based response for their own EB/AV.

Overall, this seems in the same family as Rage and Domination, but much...much more flexible and applicable. Much Excite :)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Chance Jackson wrote:
"From an old friend", "old home" and "Trusting in the will of the cards" lol love the refrences, and I like how you intended it to be so thematically open for the user to RP. I use to do the same with END in COH. So does that mean the AT/Play style closest to Brutes won't get their own rage bar and that their AT will simply use Momentum differently?

It is more like the Mastery that works like Fury did will use Momentum as its gauge.

Like many elements of COT I look forward to seeing how it all plays out.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Hmm... I wonder... how much effort would it be to make a Node Based Editor for us to setup our Pet AI... and use the same Node Based Editor in-house to setup an Enemy AI. Sorta like what Matinee does, but very limited.
Plus side would be, you can change the Enemy AI while still in the mission while still running the game.. without having to Stop.. go back to Matinee.. change one setting... recompile.. reStart the game and then the mission and check the changes made. Might shave off allot of time later when testing new features.
A very simple node based editor could help here... plus... later, it might be repurposed in a number of ways.. one being Pet AI for players to tinker with. :D
ex (Blockie.io): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9b3fusGUFU

We can neither confirm nor deny any rumors that the engine may happen to have a visual scripting system, that any portion of the AI may or may not be accessible to player manipulation, or that the engine is structured in ways that are quite deliberately intended to make it possible to apply different forms of control logic.

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Also, would not be prudent to discuss details at this juncture, except to say that we have some really grand ideas that we have not yet gotten to proof-of-concept testing, and even if we did, we would need several other subsystems working in order to really be able to tell if it worked reasonable when interacting with live humans.


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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Hmmm... does this mean if you target another player, you can see their Reserves?

..so teammates know what AoE Buffs to use to Boost the overall teams Reserves before/during AV battles?

Reserves are not boosted by buffs, nor are they drained by debuffs. I don't think character reserves will be displayed in team windows. More on Reserves will come with another update.

LeadWanderer wrote:

Can we have a system by which staying in motion builds momentum? I mean, the pun asside and intended, but it would be neat to gain momentum by being fast and 'light' on your feet.

Momentum will not be gamed by movement, too "gamable" and works against the intent of the mechanic.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

LeadWanderer wrote:
Can we have a system by which staying in motion builds momentum? I mean, the pun asside and intended, but it would be neat to gain momentum by being fast and 'light' on your feet.

Momentum will not be gamed by movement, too "gamable" and works against the intent of the mechanic.

Ahh, well, so much for the Flash flashback.

No matter, it still looks like a great tool for making combat interesting.

DeathSheepFromHell wrote:

We can neither confirm nor deny any rumors that the engine may happen to have a visual scripting system, that any portion of the AI may or may not be accessible to player manipulation, or that the engine is structured in ways that are quite deliberately intended to make it possible to apply different forms of control logic.
*flash*
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Did you just flashy-thing me? ^_^

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Izzy wrote:
Hmmm... does this mean if you target another player, you can see their Reserves?
..so teammates know what AoE Buffs to use to Boost the overall teams Reserves before/during AV battles?
Reserves are not boosted by buffs, nor are they drained by debuffs. I don't think character reserves will be displayed in team windows. More on Reserves will come with another update.

I see.

Well anyways, I guess when i play a Team Support and Buffs are asked for.. i'll just apply them all, all the time.
But In CoH, i would have liked to see a Magnitude Bar for a team mates Status Effect defenses/Resistances. Maybe I would have chosen/applied my Single Target Buffs a bit better. I spammed simgle target buffs on the tank, not so much on the rest of the team. ;) Maybe that wasnt the best approach, but there was no way to visually tell who was lacking or who Should have gotten the Buffs. :(

What if the bars on the right hand showed a few pertinent Mez Resistance/Defense levels?

Whats show is probably too wide.. it could be made allot narrower, since Magnitudes were mostly whole numbers and went up to 4 or so?!? I think. :/ But that was CoH. ;)

Maybe have a small icon to represent Hold Resistance, another icon for KnockBack Resistance, etc...
Well, this could also appear in the Avatars Bio Panel too?!?

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Actually CoH did allow you to

Actually CoH did allow you to see what buffs your party members were under.
The Team Window had an arrow icon that you could expand/collapse and would show all buffs/debuffs affecting each person inc how many of each buff.

With a large team full of Support powers I could get quite large and take up a lot of screen real estate :)

Here is an image I found from Google: http://check.animeblogger.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/coh-screenshot-2007-12-03-00-24-22.jpg Look a number 6 (even though this is the Pet window its the same look.

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