Many of the descriptions are more or less themes and animations, the coati g put over the power.
One thing we are going to attempt is to make basic stealth, that is sneaking around and avoiding notice possible for everyone.
There are 3 effects that we have which deal with the character ability to sneak around:
Powers may enhance Stealth making the sneaking around part easier.
Invisibility is a separate effect for design purposes,
Phased is yet another effect for design purposes.
Improved Stealth, invisibility, and phased can each be used independently to make avoiding notice easier.
And there will be effects to counter each. At least this is the plan. We have yet to test our Stealth system so things are seriously subject to change.

This does not include effects used directly against an adversary to purposefully reduce its perception which may also be useful in sneaking around.

Excuse me while I bust out my Game Mechanics hat.

Let's do this as an excessively simplistic compare this vs that sort of thing. Everything gets a Perception value. Everything gets a Stealth value. And just for the sake of making the math easy, let's say that the benchmark unmodified Perception value is 1000 ... and the benchmark unmodified Stealth value is 1. Very simple stuff.

In order to Detect something (Friend or Foe), simply do a comparison of Perception vs Stealth and the answer that comes out of it generates the DISTANCE at which that something can be perceived. Now, this comparison can be done a couple of different ways. It could be a straight up subtraction, which then leads to a situation where Stealth can exceed Perception preventing detection at ALL ranges ... or it could be a multiplier/divisor situation where Stealth can reduce Perception ranges but never eliminate it, meaning that there will always be a "too close" distance at which Stealth no longer prevents detection.

Of these two systems, I actually prefer the multiplier/divisor computation, because it means that Distance To Foes will always remain relevant.

Furthermore, thanks to the Unreal 4 Engine, considerations like Fields Of View can be worked into this system relatively simply. You could have, for example:

Forward 90 degree cone: 100% Perception
Forward 180 degree hemisphere (not including above): 75% Perception

Rear 90 degree cone: 25% Perception
Rear 180 degree hemisphere (not including above): 50% Perception

Fairly simple stuff, right? But what this means is that the "sensitivity" of Perceptions is dependent upon positioning and orientation. You're less likely to notice something behind you than your are to notice something in front of you.

Alternatively, you could do the "hex grid" option of just breaking everything up into regions of 60 degrees.

Forward: 100% Perception
Front/Right + Front/Left: 75% Perception
Rear/Right + Rear/Left: 50% Perception
Rear: 25% Perception

Again, very basic stuff.

Now ... add in the possibility that certain Powers can alter those Perception values. Things like Acute Senses (or whatever) could change the scaling from 100/75/50/25% to be a 120/100/80/60% instead. Quite a difference! You'd be able to have certain Powers that only apply to a specific arc ... such as +50% to Forward Arc (only) representing a scope of some kind. You could have something that improves peripheral Perception values only to the sides but not to the front and rear. And so on and so forth.

So now take the Perception Value, determine which "arc" the $Target is in to modify that Perception Value, and then simply divide by the Stealth of the $Target in that arc. If Stealth is 2, then you have to get 2x as close in order to detect it. If Stealth is 10, you have to be 10x closer than normal in order to detect it. And so on. Put that together with the Fields Of View modifier above on Perception and it then becomes standard practice to "sneak" BEHIND Foes rather than in front of them if you want to pass without detection.

After that, all you need is a GUI element that can give a Player a "feel" for how close they are to being detected by a Foe. Elder Scrolls Online does this with an "eye" in the center of the screen that progressively opens the closer you get to being within detection range of a Foe. That way, Players can develop a "feel" for where the seams are in which they can sneak around safely without being detected.

Red, that's not too far off with what we are planning to do with distance, and detection fields and stealth. Add in A.I. states such as unthreatened, alert, searching, and threatened and the animations along with an indicator in the targeting window (along with other possible indicators), and the player will know if they're getting too close to getting caught.

Also, we don't plan to create a "stealth class" which is why we want to allow anyone who wants to sneak about to be able to do so. There will be Masteries that can use stealth as one possible advantage. Between using basic stealth, stealth improving powers, and other powers to aid in avoiding detection, anyone can build a stealth character, the ones with a mastery that uses this as one of its advantages is probably a good place to start making this type of build ;)

oOStaticOo, I understand your concern over the twitch-esque elements. This basic level of stealth is something of a preferred play style and is not intended to be a requirement to play unless a player wants to play a stealth character. We want our stealth system to be more comprehensive than it was in CoH where it was either simply stack stealth until basically invisible or use invisibility and outside a few rare encounters (or in the case of drones) you can't be seen. It will be possible to do this, at times, but there will be times where it is. It possible (if we implement everything planned). This is in part due to our plan to include Super Senses and different forms of stealth effects. Each will have one or more counters to the other. Invisibility can trump normal perception while x-ray vision may trump invisibility for an example.

Radiac wrote:

What Segev and Red describe here sounds great to me.

Did I pull a clone again (first it was me as Dr. Tyche), now Segev? Me, I'm just a crowbar wielding underling. I live to serve. Or is it I serve to live? I'm sure one of them will let me know which way it is...

oOStaticOo wrote:

This is starting to sound like Twitch mechanics. I'm not sure I'm all in favor of that. MWM has said they are going with Tab Targeting, now it sounds like you are trying to add in Twitch on top of it. Pretty soon it will be how much damage you take based off of your proximity to the source of damage and how long you stay in it. I think we should just stick with a Stealth power granting a certain amount of negative perception and then perception enhancing powers and enhancements boosting perception on PC's and just having certain groups of NPC's with higher perception abilities than normal.

[img]http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140320061041/powerlisting/images/archive/2/27/20140320061438!Facepalm_2.jpg[/img]

oOStaticOo wrote:

I'm so sorry that I don't feel the same way about Twitch mechanics as you do. Forgive me for ruining your day.

It's less about "ruining my day" and more about being unwilling to accept new approaches to old problems.

Arithmetic and Algebra can both yield the same results to a given question ... but overall, Algebra is the more powerful "system" to use for solving problems. Consequently, when given a choice, I'd prefer to reach for the Algebraic solution rather than the Arithmetic solution for a given problem, even if they both yield exactly the same results. Why? Because you can "do more" with Algebra than you can with Arithmetic.

The Unreal 4 Engine is written for "twitch" mechanics. It is a "shooter" game engine. That is its core functionality and purpose. That's how it "works" under the hood. The fact that you can design a user interface that yields a Tab To Lock Target or even a Tab To Select Target functional overlay onto that functionality is just a matter of building an [b]Aimbot[/b] function into the game (that gets used by default) is effectively tangential to this topic.

Quote:

Aimbot (auto-aim)
A first-person shooter cheat that lets players shoot other player-characters without aiming. In most cases, the reticle locks on to a target within the player's line of sight and the player only has to pull the trigger. Aimbots are one of the most popular cheats in multiplayer FPS, used since 1990's Quake.

Look, if you believe that relative positioning and relative bearings (ie. the Fields of View) between PCs/NPCs that have been mentioned in this thread are something that should have no influence whatsoever on Perception (and by extension, Stealth), that is an extremely limited ... and limiting ... point of view to take and maintain. Why? Because [b]we can do better than that[/b] with the native capabilities already built into the Unreal 4 Engine.

I don't see the 'Twitch' in fields of view and perception, that just gives you a mechanic to exploit/avoid when you're trying to stealth. And, if you have the tools to counteract perception completely, like a controller with Sleep or Blind or Deceive/Confuse, then you can use those and ignore the question of how stealthy you are.

Stealth is an optional approach to defeating the enemy. You can still walk up and punch them in the face, if that's your thing.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Um ... topic derail?

I wasn't even talking about Target Selection. Indeed, my point is that this entire sideline into Twitch vs Tab is a gigantic "you're missing the point" derailment.

[i]How you select a target has [b]nothing to do with[/b] how Perception and Stealth "work" game mechanically.[/i]

Even more to the point, how you select a target (whether by "twitchy" means or by use of the Tab key) literally has nothing to do with how Perception and Stealth [b]ought to work[/b] in the game ... other than restricting your choice of Target Selection to Foes that you can Perceive. If you can't Perceive them, then you can't Target them ... regardless of whether you're doing so in a "twitchy" way or a Tab Select way.

Now, if we can please talk about the subject matter at hand ...

oOStaticOo wrote:

I'm going to assume that there will be stationary mobs and there will be roaming mobs. Now you are trying to suggest that Stealth be based off of the ability to detect a person based on their positioning. I get that. With a stationary mob this will be fairly simple as they will not be changing positions. With a roaming mob this will be more difficult as the person will have to then position themselves constantly to try to avoid detection, hence Twitch. Now you get one stationary mob and introduce a roaming mob on top of that, well Stealth just flew right out the window.
Basically people will have to try to use terrain to their advantage, positions of mobs, silence, obstacles, shadows, varying grades of heat, etc. Now Stealth is a whole new Twitch game in itself. One I'd rather not try to play. If that's the way Stealth is going to work, I just won't ever take Stealth and instead will just Hulk my way through the mission. Perhaps there is a middle ground within your scenario and mine, I hope so. I'm not against improving upon Stealth and Perception, just not sure I like it the way you are describing it.

Positional perception isn't new. Mobs in CoH had this as well. What we plan to do in CoT is to allow basic stealth anyone can use. Then there will be powers anyone can access to build upon this stealth which will make it easier to move about undetected. With the advent of Super Senses like X-Ray vision, some forms of stealth would still be detectable. The other side of that coin is that the X-Ray vision user may have a more limited range of perception in which to view.

Basically there will be Super Sense powers that can counter different types of stealth and different types of Stealth that can counter Super Senses. If there are any pawns using a Super Sense, it will demand that we provide some indicator of its ability. Yes this is different from CoH where achieving the level of Invisibility in some form was almost always good enough to zip through maps. An added layer to this is npc awareness states will give some indication of when to be cautious.

We do plan on using a perception system. NPCs should have different perception ranges by the direction they are facing. Using stealth makes it harder for the stealth user to be perceived. There will be different types of stealth for the sneaking around part of the user, powers which mess with perception (like a fog aura or a smoke bomb), and Super Senses that may counter various forms of stealth and perception messing powers, but have their own drawbacks for using them.

By and large, our plans have addressed those questions in an adequate way. Our prototype will surely let us know where the huge kinks are, and through out beta I suspect changes will occur.

But realize that targeting something and being able to attack it are two different things. And if a player has managed to target a stealth user, there may be ways to use stealth to break target lock. With NPCs having perception ranges depending on their facing direction (nothing new to games) it will be easier to sneak up behind them. A stealth user will be able to encroach closer to the npc even from the front than a non stealth user. Then if powers are taken to increase stealth, this ability is also improved.

Hehehe... This was my fault.. :<
Back On Topic! *takes out whip to the Cow and Bull!* ;)

What this thread needs, is more cowbell.

Jacke wrote:

You talking about perception and stealth being affected by the facing of mobs. That'll probably extend to characters' perception and stealth too.

Honestly, I don't see any upside in developing separate systems for PCs vs NPCs in this regard. The simple fact of the matter is though that most Players will pay attention to their forward view almost all of the time ... with rare exceptions (such as when traveling or searching for something or ... moving stealthily near Foes).

Jacke wrote:

But Tab targetting combined with attacks leads to automatic facing changes of characters. Similarly mobs when they argo and attack also turn to face that target. In both cases each could lose sight of other targets and now gain sight of new targets.

To my mind, this is effectively conflating different aspects of the game together into a single unified concept. You want to be careful and examine the underlying assumptions that support the supposition.

For example ... let's say that the entire "which way is front" question for the consideration of Fields of View and how that works with Perception isn't controlled by the facing of the Avatar onscreen, but instead controlled by the camera angle. Meaning you can face your character's body "north" and then slew the camera view around to "south" without turning your character's body and now the "forward" direction for all of the Perception considerations is "south" instead of "north" so that you can Look Around without needing to Turn Around first.

In fact, this is actually the way I'd prefer the system to work, such that the strongest level of Perception your character can generate is always aimed in the direction that your camera is viewing (literally the PC's Field of View). This makes sense for PCs, where camera angles can be divorced from movement directions, and is something I did *frequently* when playing City of Heroes, Tabula Rasa, WoW, TERA, STO ... etc. etc. etc. ... you get the idea. This was the "keep your head on a swivel" style of movement to increase situational awareness when maneuvering in hostile territory. But that doesn't "work" for NPCs, per se.

So what I'd want to do is that for NPCs, their Field of View is "locked" to match their direction of movement. If their body is facing "north" then their Field of View is angled "north" too. This is just a simplification of the system used by PCs, rather than an entirely different system.

Now you are correct that aggro and attacking would cause NPCs to turn and face their attackers, and that likewise use of any attack (even if beyond range) would cause your PC to turn and face your $Target. Assuming that your camera angle slewed to match that new orientation (true with NPCs, possibly true with PCs but also possibly not due to camera control by the Player) then everything would essentially fall into place all on its own. The key thing that you're not addressing here is whether or not an attack on a Foe would cue the AI controlling that Foe to close range (somehow) so as to get within (Perception divided by Stealth) distance of their attacker so as to be able to retaliate. Or would retaliation simply require getting within Attack Power Range?

In other words, when Stealth*Distance is greater than Perception, we would expect that condition to prevent NPC aggro in PvE, and we would also expect at PC to not be able to detect another PC in PvP ... and if you can't detect them then you can't target them ... either by Tab Lock To Target or by Tab Select Target. However, once "Combat" has been joined ... do we expect the whole (Stealth*Distance>Perception) equation to [i]continue to prevent[/i] Targeting and Aggro? THAT'S a different question.

Remember, City of Heroes got around this problem by "suppressing" Stealth while In Combat. Powers like Invisibility by contrast simply prevented you from attacking at all, effectively mooting the question.

In other words ... is the (Stealth*Distance>Perception) qualifier something that only "works" against Foes that are Out Of Combat? Alternatively, you could code it such that the (Stealth*Distance>Perception) comparison only "matters" when Threat equals zero (ie. either no aggro or Placated), with every attack adding 1+ Threat. Again, if you tie it in to the Threat mechanics, you can even make that work for PCs as well as NPCs, except that the NPCs would use their Threat tables as part of their AI decision process, while PCs have a different reward/penalty structure driven by Threat that can [b]guide[/b] Player decisions without railroading them.

Jacke wrote:

Is it out-of-sight, out-of-mind? Will the mobs have memory? How much? Will they have an argo list with flagging whether or not they can see the target right now?

I would expect an aggro wipe power like a Placate to overwrite Threat to zero ... so in that case it literally would be out of sight, out of mind. As far as memory goes, that would be represented by a Threat table. Threat would either "decay" over time or Threat added to a table would have a set Threat value and duration so that the Threat "rolls off" after X seconds.

As for flagging whether or not they can detect a Foe "right now" ... that depends on whether the Threat is allowed to "trump" Stealth. For example, the default setting could be that 1+ Threat shuts down the (Stealth*Distance>Perception) equation such that once YOU have attacked a Foe, they can $Target and attack you. However, there could be a Camouflage Power that bumps this up, such that you need to have generated 1001+ Threat before a Foe that you've attacked can $Target and attack you. In other words, if you use "nickle and dime" low level attacks, you could potentially "fight" a Foe who is never able to "find you" and counterattack or retaliate. However if you used a "big" heavy attack, you'd blow past that Threat generation threshold pretty quickly and they'd "find" you and retaliate.

Or to put it another way ... the BEHAVIORS that the system allows, encourages and produces depend a very great deal on how you set things up (and why). I'd prefer to have a nuanced system that rewards intelligent gameplay as well as Player skill and alertness, rather than the overly simplified system that City of Heroes used ... which was effectively an extension of their boolean controlled mez mechanics.

Trust me, you haven't herd the last of this.

Ambush mechanics in City of Heroes were so ... DUMB. There, I said it.

Ideally you'd want to have the NPCs "playing by the same rules" (and using the same Powers!) as the PCs. This then becomes part'n'parcel with the notion that NPCs are really just "players" driven by an AI on the server, rather than a live human using a network connection. So honestly I'd very much WANT to have NPCs who use Stealth ... otherwise what's the point of giving superpowered Senses to PCs? Other than for PvP, of course.

City of Heroes rigged its Ambushes to be game mechanically simple, but behaviorally Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. It was a matter of oversimplifying and cutting so many corners all you had left was a rounded sphere. Use of the Perception/Stealth mechanics would allow for a much greater variety of Ambush encounter scenarios, particularly if the NPCs aren't given "free" knowledge that they often shouldn't have access to (like the EXACT location of the PC(s) AT ALL TIMES). That way you have a more behaviorally diverse set of conditions to play with, which can potentially be avoided/mitigated through use of CLEVER gameplay.

I think if an ambush is triggered or not should be dependent on what kind of stealth is used and what kind of an ambush is about to happen. It was said above that there probably will be various methods of stealth and countermeasures against them. Something like invisibility lets you walk straight past NPCs who wait for you to come by, but it does not prevent you triggering alarms by stepping on a pressure plate or walking through a tripwire. Phasing out of reality on the other hand would render those useless, but you could still be seen.

But as for the stealth system that is described here, I like it but somehow it worries me a little. In itself it has a nice complexity and really does sound fun... but I could imagine that seeking the weak points in enemy perceptions is time consuming and having a stealth focused character in the team would slow the others down. And that way stealth would be something one has to solo to fully enjoy.
Will there be ways to play stealth focused and provide enough advantage to the team to make up for that? Is distraction provided by other characters going to help land stealth based attacks?

Izzy wrote:

i want my animal pets to sniff a piece of cloth my NPC contact gave me and during the mission my K9 (or other pets) could sniff their way to the traget on the map with a Hot or Cold Bar in the Pets GUI display. ;)
I suppose the NPC Contact could lend you his K9 for that mission alone. Temp PowAAA! ;)

Affirmative!

LeadWanderer wrote:

Foradain wrote:
Izzy wrote:
i want my animal pets to sniff a piece of cloth my NPC contact gave me and during the mission my K9 (or other pets) could sniff their way to the traget on the map with a Hot or Cold Bar in the Pets GUI display. ;)
I suppose the NPC Contact could lend you his K9 for that mission alone. Temp PowAAA! ;)

Affirmative!

:O Bucky and Sings Loudly could be perception pets!

Correctamundo!