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Difficulty. Work hard for what you want.

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Lollerskatez
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Difficulty. Work hard for what you want.

Hey everyone! I usually lurk the forums and I decided to post a suggestion. I've played many MMORPG's over the years with City of Heroes being my first back when it first came out. And over the years I've noticed that a lot of MMORPG's (excluding Korean MMO's) are incredibly easy.

Now, I understand that a lot of MMORPG's try to aim towards all types of gamers. From your casuals to your elitists. From children to teens and to adults. But, from what I noticed. Some MMO's become...too easy.

I, personally, get very bored VERY quickly if a game is too simple or too easy. I need to be challenged and I'm sure some of you enjoy challenges. With that being said. I'm hoping to see missions/quests that are very difficult to complete. I absolutely hate mindless missions that are created just to give you items and XP.

I obsess over the satisfaction that I get when I work incredibly hard for levels, items, money or even achievements. I would love to have missions that make me think twice about what I want to do. That push me to my limits. And it doesn't have to be just missions. It can also be the environment our heroes are forced to live in.

Working for something you want. Putting the time and sweat into it is what makes MMORPG's fun. You may earn something that makes you stand out and that's what every player wants. Everyone wants to stand out from the crowd but we have to work for it.

islandtrevor72
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In CoH there was the

In CoH there was the notoriety system....allowing a teams to change mission difficulty. I dont remember reading anything about it but I think CoT will include a similar system. Otherwise there is always the CoT version of trials of TFs. Is that what you are thinking of

Lollerskatez
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

In CoH there was the notoriety system....allowing a teams to change mission difficulty. I dont remember reading anything about it but I think CoT will include a similar system. Otherwise there is always the CoT version of trials of TFs. Is that what you are thinking of

I loved doing TFs and those were challenging at times. But, I'm not just talking about TF's/group raids. I'm talking about your normal missions being more difficult.

Fireheart
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Yes, CoH had the 'difficulty

Yes, CoH had the 'difficulty slider' which became the Notoriety system.

With it, you could tweak the level and number of your opponents in all missions. This is what led to people talking about '+4x8' missions.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Tannim222
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We do plan to have an

We do plan to have an adjustable difficulty settings.


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Lollerskatez
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Will the rewards be better if

Will the rewards be better if you played on a harder difficulty?

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Lollerskatez wrote:
Lollerskatez wrote:

Will the rewards be better if you played on a harder difficulty?

You want Very Rare drops on the Very Difficult setting? ;)

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Aside from the increased xp

Aside from the increased xp and number of drops inherent in a larger number or higher level of mobs, I don't want increased difficulty to provide any specific extra rewards. Surely for someone who feels that putting the time and sweat into it is what makes MMORPGs fun the challenge is its own reward?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Lollerskatez wrote:
Lollerskatez wrote:

Will the rewards be better if you played on a harder difficulty?

Basically every MOB you defeat is another chance to get a super-rare drop. If you (or your team) is strong enough to face more "critters per second" then you're automatically getting more chances at special drops in a shorter period of time. So as long as "higher difficulty" always includes more MOBs to fight there's really no reason to artifically provide any additional "extras" for playing on a harder difficulty setting other than the setting itself.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Minotaur
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Lollerskatez wrote:
Will the rewards be better if you played on a harder difficulty?

Basically every MOB you defeat is another chance to get a super-rare drop. If you (or your team) is strong enough to face more "critters per second" then you're automatically getting more chances at special drops in a shorter period of time. So as long as "higher difficulty" always includes more MOBs to fight there's really no reason to artifically provide any additional "extras" for playing on a harder difficulty setting other than the setting itself.

That was true if you upped the number of players, but not if you just upped the level of the mobs which was all you could do with a full team.

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Lothic
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Minotaur wrote:
Minotaur wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Lollerskatez wrote:
Will the rewards be better if you played on a harder difficulty?

Basically every MOB you defeat is another chance to get a super-rare drop. If you (or your team) is strong enough to face more "critters per second" then you're automatically getting more chances at special drops in a shorter period of time. So as long as "higher difficulty" always includes more MOBs to fight there's really no reason to artifically provide any additional "extras" for playing on a harder difficulty setting other than the setting itself.

That was true if you upped the number of players, but not if you just upped the level of the mobs which was all you could do with a full team.

What justification was there to get any special bonus beyond the number of "chances" at super-rare drops a team of 8 could ever possibly get? That was the question here and the answer seems to be no justification I'm aware of.

A single player running at "team size 8" difficulty in CoH got access to the same number of drops as each player got running in an actual 8 person team. The fact that the single player doing that didn't need 7 other humans around to help him/her do that was "extra bonus" enough.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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There is a another reward in

There is a another reward in Cox there were sometimes rare opponents that showed up.
You get better chance that they dropped in the mission.
Especially when you were hunting Troll bosses in the villain side.

islandtrevor72
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Quote:We do plan to have an
Quote:

We do plan to have an adjustable difficulty settings..

That's great to hear. I am curious though if the current plan is to mimic CoHs difficulty slider or to add a challenge component....more hp for foes...foes do more damage ect....I am not worried about what rewards might be offered but more that I can tailor my experience in the game.

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I remember doing the

I remember doing the alignment missions and thinking that the ones against Arachnos were a little harder, maybe it was their resistances or something. That's one way to make stuff harder, just add more stuff, more bosses, make them higher level, add in some ambushes or itinerant mobs, etc.

Another thing entirely would be making some missions a little more "puzzle-like" and by that I mean stuff like the Portal game had, where you have to figure out your way through a maze or get the ball into the basket, or infiltrate the base undetected, etc. I think missions like this would be cool as long as they're not 100% necessary to forward the plot of the story arc you're doing per se. I would even add that maybe these types of missions ought to have a badge for completion.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote:
We do plan to have an adjustable difficulty settings..
That's great to hear. I am curious though if the current plan is to mimic CoHs difficulty slider or to add a challenge component....more hp for foes...foes do more damage ect....I am not worried about what rewards might be offered but more that I can tailor my experience in the game.

Additional challenge options such as you describe are yet to be determined. Currently, increasing spawn level over character level would handle increased difficulty in many areas instead of a la carte. Also one of our design goals is to avoid the "just add more hp" as a means to greater difficulty to an encounter. If we do our job well, there really shouldn't be a need to add more hp to encounters, but it is a bit premature to say exactly how the difficulty settings will be designed. I do hope to have more settings beyond team size, spawn level difference, boss / no boss, and an equivalent to the av - eb options.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Minotaur wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Lollerskatez wrote:
Will the rewards be better if you played on a harder difficulty?

Basically every MOB you defeat is another chance to get a super-rare drop. If you (or your team) is strong enough to face more "critters per second" then you're automatically getting more chances at special drops in a shorter period of time. So as long as "higher difficulty" always includes more MOBs to fight there's really no reason to artifically provide any additional "extras" for playing on a harder difficulty setting other than the setting itself.

That was true if you upped the number of players, but not if you just upped the level of the mobs which was all you could do with a full team.

What justification was there to get any special bonus beyond the number of "chances" at super-rare drops a team of 8 could ever possibly get? That was the question here and the answer seems to be no justification I'm aware of.
A single player running at "team size 8" difficulty in CoH got access to the same number of drops as each player got running in an actual 8 person team. The fact that the single player doing that didn't need 7 other humans around to help him/her do that was "extra bonus" enough.

Missing the point I was making, if all you wanted was drops, +0x8 was better than +4x8 because the odds were the same but you killed stuff quicker.

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islandtrevor72
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Quote:
Quote:

I do hope to have more settings beyond team size, spawn level difference, boss / no boss, and an equivalent to the av - eb options..

Everything is fantastic (especially how you are avoiding the big bag of hp for difficulty) but this part here makes me very happy.

Cinnder
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Quote:
I do hope to have more settings beyond team size, spawn level difference, boss / no boss, and an equivalent to the av - eb options..
Everything is fantastic (especially how you are avoiding the big bag of hp for difficulty) but this part here makes me very happy.

Agreed. I liked the flexibility of the CoX system (some chars wanted a more numerous challenge, while others preferred smaller numbers of higher level) -- but it sounds like CoT plans to have this and more.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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The two features that I found

The two features that I found most critically important from CoH were the sidekicking system (so I could always play with friends regardless of level) and the difficulty slider (so I could always be appropriately challenged to feel engaged). The only other MMO I've played since CoH, SWTOR, did a much better base job of tuning encounter difficulty than CoH, but because there is no way to adjust it, I got deathly bored with missions that were generally not hard enough. I usually need to be able to make things harder or I get bored and leave; the only game I've played recently with no difficulty slider where I stayed engaged was dark souls, which I would classify as slightly easier than I generally like but pretty close. On the flip side, I have a friend who does not like hard games at all, and will not stick around if it is difficult. We could play CoH together because I could crank the difficulty up and he could roll through +0/+0/no boss settings without having to deal with too much difficulty, and neither of us would get bored or frustrated and quit.

I don't see a lot of difficulty sliders in MMOs. I think it is because they are hard to do without instanced content, so if the MMO doesn't rely heavily on instances, they're difficult to make work. I find it critically important for inclusive enjoyment, however, so am very pleased that City of Titans will follow in CoH's footsteps here.

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I guess it is too early to

I guess it is too early to really discuss how difficult the game should be or how difficult you can set the game to be. But maybe instead of an HP/Def/Attack increase. The enemies could have more powers to work with or they could be all around "smarter". It's hard to suggest something like this because I don't know what kind of limits the developers have over the AI system.

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Its been said the Ai was too

Its been said the Ai was too smart and had to be dumbed down (no explanation what that meant though). I think the earlier you figure out difficulty the better....its how they will balance the game. Everything is going to be based off it....

Lollerskatez
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islandtrevor72 wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:

Its been said the Ai was too smart and had to be dumbed down (no explanation what that meant though). I think the earlier you figure out difficulty the better....its how they will balance the game. Everything is going to be based off it....

I'd like to know how the AI was too smart. As long as the AI isn't dodging every spell and isn't one shotting us. I think they'll be beatable.

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Lollerskatez wrote:
Lollerskatez wrote:

islandtrevor72 wrote:
Its been said the Ai was too smart and had to be dumbed down (no explanation what that meant though). I think the earlier you figure out difficulty the better....its how they will balance the game. Everything is going to be based off it....

I'd like to know how the AI was too smart. As long as the AI isn't dodging every spell and isn't one shotting us. I think they'll be beatable.

Short of going back to find the explanation that Dr. Tyche acually did post, my recollection was that the AI wasn't too smart, just too "effective". As soon as a tester's avatar appearred on a map, every MOB knew instantly where they were, and started toward them by the shortest possible route. Scary at first, you'd have to admit. :) Possibly epic, but scary. Like a scene from World War Z.

So, basically they had to pretty quickly figure out how the engine's aggro worked. This is before, I suppose, they worked out the individual "behaviors" of the MOBs themselves. I think the good Doctor just used some mis-leading shorthand when he spoke of "dumbing down." The AI pretty much is what it is. The developers just need to define limits, percentages, etc. for the individual MOBs.

Lollerskatez
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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

Lollerskatez wrote:
islandtrevor72 wrote:
Its been said the Ai was too smart and had to be dumbed down (no explanation what that meant though). I think the earlier you figure out difficulty the better....its how they will balance the game. Everything is going to be based off it....

I'd like to know how the AI was too smart. As long as the AI isn't dodging every spell and isn't one shotting us. I think they'll be beatable.

Short of going back to find the explanation that Dr. Tyche acually did post, my recollection was that the AI wasn't too smart, just too "effective". As soon as a tester's avatar appearred on a map, every MOB knew instantly where they were, and started toward them by the shortest possible route. Scary at first, you'd have to admit. :) Possibly epic, but scary. Like a scene from World War Z.

That would actually be pretty cool lol. Fighting a continuous wave of enemies.

islandtrevor72
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I was referring to these two

I was referring to these two specific posts by Doctor Tyche

Quote:

A bit late for that....

We actually are working to dumb it down a bit.
.

and

Quote:

I mean we have to dumb them down. Right now nobody can beat the base AI. The term is "outsmarted ourselves.".

Have not found an explanation of what he meant. It does not sound like an aggro error though....sounds like the AI had no weakness.
Would love to see the post that he gave the description you are talking about.

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WarBird wrote:
WarBird wrote:

As soon as a tester's avatar appearred on a map, every MOB knew instantly where they were, and started toward them by the shortest possible route.

Makes me think of CoV ambush missions with my Stalker...

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I like the idea of the slider

I like the idea of the slider affecting how "smart" the AI is instead of/along with mob damage/hp/stats/defenses/end-recovery etc.

I don't see the problem with letting people get a little more for doing harder setings. I was never in a hurry and always played whatever level was fun (though I often played 4/8 on my Incarnates just for the fun of it), and if someone set it a bit different--higher or lower (a la +0/x8, which I personally never played once that I can remember)--to level faster or get more stuff or whatever, I never begrudged it. Just because I don't want to do it doesn't mean I mind someone else doing it and getting a bit more than me for doing it. It was never a race or competition to me. I was eventually going to get all of the same stuff, just maybe a bit slower.

I do think the lifeblood of this game will be casual gamers, but the option to turn it to 11 to challenge even the most masochistic player is a good option. What I DID find baffling in CoH was people who complained that the game was too easy, yet always picked easy settings. That's like complaining that McDonald's is making you fat when you just can't resist going there and super-sizing everything.

Just my 2 inf.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I don't mind playing an

I don't mind playing an MMORPG that tries to balance the game for both elitists and your casual gamers. But this difficulty slider sounds like it would be a great idea.

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I would welcome a difficulty

I would welcome a difficulty setting that would have a spawn quickly re-deploy (once alerted/once perception kicks in) and launch attacks from multiple axes; not just from the "most-forward 120 degree arc", if you will.

Would also be cool if mobs somehow learned and smartened-up on how to avoid the soloer's or team's "wash-rinse-repeat" tactics. This would be best featured from mission-to-mission within a particular arc in which the same faction appears in each mission. Not sure if UE4 can handle this...

Something a bit wild would be a setting on which mobs use artifacts or "brainy tactics" to assist them in a fight. CoX had some of this in a limited fashion.
-- A goon blasts a near-by steam pipe which causes lethal damage to you and yours.
-- A goon blasts overhead wires...the wires fall upon your teammates and cause energy damage...and maybe for a short duration water-based powers would cause damage to self.
-- Before a weakened boss calls in reinforcement lackeys, he zaps a near-by power panel, killing the lights and drastically reducing "perception" which leaves the team exposed to multiple alpha strikes from multiple directions

---
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Then: Underboss for Acquisitions and Capital Investments - The Black Rose
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Things that I would like to

Things that I would like to see with regards to difficulty:

1) Waves of mooks. Some characters, especially the Martial Arts types for me, just scream out for a room filled with flunkies. I turn the Diff to -2/x8 and go to town. I likely get LESS xp than with fewer but tougher enemies but when the enemy horde feels like fun then that's how I want to roll.

2) The Big Fight. At the end of the movie/comic/thing you have the Big Showdown. This used to feel very different as well it should. There is great satisfaction in beating that one guy you didn't think you could take.

3) Adjusting Diff mid-game: Left 4 Dead has a great system for this and I'd love to see it explored. When the team is greasing everything, taking little damage and not spending much End then HORDES of bad guys attack. Sort of like the old Wandering Monster Table. However if the team is all below half health, out of End with most of their powers on Recharge then the hordes back off. Adds to the difficulty without having to end the scenario, adjust the Diff at some contact etc.

4) Non-generic enemies: A mook is a mook is a mook. But do they HAVE to be? We all remember that one group that had 1-2 minions or powers that drove us nuts (nobody liked the CoT and everyone remembers Sappers). But IMHO every faction should have 1-2 types that the players don't necessarily hate but are wary of. There ought to be at least a chance that someone will run from the fight to get help. It makes Controllers more desirable. It makes Stealthy people more desirable. Rather than have a specific type of bad guy that everyone hates ('Those guys with the rifles SUCK!') how about whole minion types that require some thought? (Ok, those guys are Churchills so odds are they'll all fight to the finish. That Lt in the back is from the French quarter though so expect him to rabbit as soon as we show up. Btw yes, this is a mean stereotype against the French and I'm sorry but I couldn't think of another example please don't hate me)

5) Bad guys who learn from their mistakes (at least within a story arc). So...you and your Hero Team United hear the Dr Ebil is about to steal the terrible blah blah blah. You show up and promptly trash his minions and defeat him. He pulls a wildcard (hostages, booby trap, whatever) and escapes (so the rest of the arc can proceed). Now the last time you defeated him was because 4 out of the 5 of you had AoE-centric Fire/Heat powers. The NEXT mission he has terrorized his science division into making him a new suit that grants him 25% Fire Reduction. Now you can STIll beat him with your powers but it'll be tougher and you'll have to play smarter. At the end of the arc he has all his stuff taken away after he's defeated etc.

6) Reinforcements: There should be bigger rewards and bigger risks for going into a bad guy's lair. Sure, you can hunt his minions, cut them off from outside resources etc but actually going INTO the bad guy's hideout should be a Big Event. Traps everywhere. Endless waves of enemies. Ambushes from behind every vent and corner. But when you're done (assuming you win) then you get all that glorious Xp and drops plus some kind of special gear or bonus. Almost like every enemy lair was a mini-TF instead of just 'Bad guy lair #77.'

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Comicsluvr wrote:
Comicsluvr wrote:

3) Adjusting Diff mid-game: Left 4 Dead has a great system for this and I'd love to see it explored. When the team is greasing everything, taking little damage and not spending much End then HORDES of bad guys attack. Sort of like the old Wandering Monster Table. However if the team is all below half health, out of End with most of their powers on Recharge then the hordes back off. Adds to the difficulty without having to end the scenario, adjust the Diff at some contact etc.

Also, while inside the mission, do you want to Call the Contact and have the option be presented to Higher or Lower the Difficulty setting? And the new difficulty is applied with every new area in the indoor map?

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Of course, maybe adding in

Of course, maybe adding in "Hard mode" versions of Taskforces/Strike forces, which have additional (harder) objectives to do can add something as well.

On top of that, maybe making the mobs have additional attacks/different mechanics can add more to a fight as well (this can mean that tactics for the "normal" version won't always work for the hard mode, unless you are *really* on your game).

Wildstar has done this with their veteran adventures/dungeons where the bosses have additional/harder mechanics to beat (typically more/faster happening) whilst also having additional challenges/side missions to complete for the change of additional loot/badges/achievements.

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