Discuss: Highway To The Danger Room

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warcabbit
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Discuss: Highway To The Danger Room

No stop signs! No speed limits!

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This looks like it can be

This looks like it can be very flexible. I like flexible ^_^

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That looks VERY interesting..

That looks VERY interesting....
I likes me some Mechanics information to drool over :)

No image of the Power Set Augment (unless you meant the Green and Yellow Refinement slot?)

Quote:

If you get 49 levels above the place you got it at, it’ll decay to half power, but it won’t fail entirely.

Now THIS I like!!!
Does it mean the decay on my level 1 Augment/Refinement wont happen at all until I get to level 50, or will decay in small increments until I get to lvl 50 and hit the half power decay - ie: 1% decay per Character Level above the Aug/Ref Level?

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Quote:
Quote:

Does it mean the decay on my level 1 Augment/Refinement wont happen at all until I get to level 50, or will decay in small increments until I get to lvl 50 and hit the half power decay - ie: 1% decay per Character Level above the Aug/Ref Level?

Nothing that simple, the decline will be sharper at first, and then gradually level off, at least that's the current thought.

Source: the guy with a PhD in Industrial Engineering (Complex Systems).

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cybermitheral
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So something like (and these

So something like (and these number are just examples):
5% Decay per Character Level above Aug/Ref Level until 10 levels difference (50% Decay)
Assuming a Level 1 Aug/Ref =
Char Level 2 = 5% Decay (1 level difference)
Char Level 3 = 10% Decay
Char Level 4 = 15% Decay
Char Level 10 = 45% Decay
Char Level 11+ = 50% Decay (10 levels difference)

or

3% per level for the first 5 levels (15% Decay), then 1% per level difference there after until 50% Decay is reached.
Assuming a Level 1 Aug/Ref =
Char Level 2 = 5% Decay (1 level difference)
Char Level 6 = 15% Decay
Char Level 7 = 16% Decay
Char Level 20 = 29% Decay
Char Level 30 = 39% Decay
Char Level 40 = 49% Decay
Char Level 41+ = 50% Decay

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Mind-Freeze
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I like this just hope it's

I like this just hope it's not to confusing for players of all ages to adjust to

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Mind-Freeze wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

I like this just hope it's not to confusing for players of all ages to adjust to

It shouldn't be too difficult, we may need to give the Refinement Socket a different shape if it does become too confusing during testing. Basically when slotting Augments into a power the Augment comes with one or more sockets you can slot a Refinement into.

It's a take on systems that have gear with sockets to add or improve stats to the gear. Only (at least at first) Augments will improve certain aspects of a power and Refinements another. Primary and Secondary Sets get their own special Augment Socket into which a special Power Set Augments can be placed. These Power Set Augments do not come with Refinement Sockets, and there is only 1 Power Set Augment Socket.


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Awwww.. i was hoping to see

Awwww.. i was hoping to see Tom Cruise picture and the Danger Zone background music :/

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I don't mind the upright

I don't mind the upright triangle and the upside down triangle for the Augment/Refinement slots. They are visually different enough when you look at them in your Inventory, yet when slotted together it makes sense. What shape will the Power Aug Slot (PAS?) be? Hexagon/Circle/Square/Megagon?

While Im sure the examples given in the Update are just idea's I hope the image style we end up with is better than the lightning bolt example. It looks to... low-quality/kiddie (IMHO).

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I'm a bit curious on one

I'm a bit curious on one regard. Considering the steps made to create a power (Base/theme/Animation) would be be able to give personal names these somewhat customized powers to differentiate between the different heroes/villains using the same frameworks?

Example:

Manfred-Man and Tom del Bee both use the same combination of base/theme/animation in a power causing an accuracy debuff to the affected targets. MM, however, wants some way to make his unique and dislikes the name "Blinding Flash". Would he be able to rename the power to his more preferred "Blinded by the Light" while Tom, being equally creative, names his "Blinded You with Science"?

I get this might be a pain to integrate this system AND filters to prevent less than desirable names (Specially those that'd break the Teen rating). Buuut can't deny it's a neat idea. ..plus I never really enjoyed some of the names of CoH's abilities (or CO's..). Many felt lacking in that unique factor.

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Nice Champions PnP reference.

Nice Champions PnP reference. It's gonna be good. I can already see the wiki pages turning as folks discover those hidden bonuses :)

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Zap EM! ;D


Zap EM! ;D

Made it in Inkscape (following a tutorial).
It's a cool app. ;)

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I can see having the name of

I can see having the name of the powers change on my client but still appear as the standard name if someone else can see my profile. This avoids those that break the Teen rating from affecting anybody else. Also any Combat log will prob still use the official name so if the Devs need to review the logs they know what power "SUCK IT BITCHES" actually is.

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This all sounds very cool! I

This all sounds very cool! I can't wait to see what can be done regarding time control powers.

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Every time there's a tech

Every time there's a tech update that discusses actual game mechanics, I get more excited about CoT. Every peek behind the curtain makes me feel even more certain that MWM is doing exactly what they said they would do: keeping true to the "feel" of CoX while innovating in ways that make it a new game in its own right. I'm pleased and amazed at the amount of theory going into design to ensure it works, and I like the way you folks are clear about things you can't really know till there's a chance to do good data mining (and thus might have to change in the future).

While seeing stuff like this makes me wish CoT would be ready to play sooner, at the same time it makes me able to wait more patiently -- because I can see how you folks are thinking everything through and not merely slapping some bytes together and putting a shiny coat on them.

I don't know how representative of the final style these graphic examples are meant to be, but I like the direction. (I actually even like the comic-book-style lightning bolt.) I really hope the UI has the power symbols, bold borders, and generally "sturdy" feel seen in these examples, and not the generic "flat squares" UI we see in most other MMOs, with their indecipherable pictures. ("What is that? It looks like a slug undergoing spontaneous combustion." "No, I think it's a bit of grape Jell-O falling onto an obelisk." "All I know is that it makes my character go pew pew.")

P.S. If we did get the ability to rename powers, I'd change "Chi Punch" to "Chi Tea" just to amuse my daughter.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

P.S. If we did get the ability to rename powers, I'd change "Chi Punch" to "Chi Tea" just to amuse my daughter.

I'd name it "It Chi" for even more amusement...

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This sounds really neat. If

This sounds really neat. If it also sounds a little complex right now I've got a sense that it will be quite intuitive once we get to use it.

- - - - -
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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

I don't mind the upright triangle and the upside down triangle for the Augment/Refinement slots. They are visually different enough when you look at them in your Inventory, yet when slotted together it makes sense. What shape will the Power Aug Slot (PAS?) be? Hexagon/Circle/Square/Megagon?
While Im sure the examples given in the Update are just idea's I hope the image style we end up with is better than the lightning bolt example. It looks to... low-quality/kiddie (IMHO).

I agree. The up/down thing made perfect sense to me right away. That thing is attached to the Power. THIS thing augments THAT thing. No worries.

Now circles on the other hand...

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

I'd name it "It Chi" for even more amusement...

Ha! Now I want an Itch power set!!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Mind-Freeze wrote:
Mind-Freeze wrote:

I like this just hope it's not to confusing for players of all ages to adjust to

One of the goals is to have it be *just* confusing enough that there are advantages to spending time thinking about what you want to build, but not so confusing that folks who don't want to have to bother miss out or feel crippled.

That said? It is actually simpler under the hood in many ways than CoX ever was. It will certainly grow its own set of warts as it gets adjusted, but one of the *other* goals is making sure that when someone is looking at it three years down the road and wondering "WTF is that +6 about? Where did that come from and what the heck is it doing?" they'll actually be able to figure out the answer. The main road to doing that is making it both elegant at the "core", and building in ways to cleanly apply adjustments of various sorts. Which is where some of the bits Cabbit didn't go into in depth come into play.


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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

So something like (and these number are just examples):
5% Decay per Character Level above Aug/Ref Level until 10 levels difference (50% Decay)
Assuming a Level 1 Aug/Ref =
Char Level 2 = 5% Decay (1 level difference)
Char Level 3 = 10% Decay
Char Level 4 = 15% Decay
Char Level 10 = 45% Decay
Char Level 11+ = 50% Decay (10 levels difference)
or
3% per level for the first 5 levels (15% Decay), then 1% per level difference there after until 50% Decay is reached.
Assuming a Level 1 Aug/Ref =
Char Level 2 = 5% Decay (1 level difference)
Char Level 6 = 15% Decay
Char Level 7 = 16% Decay
Char Level 20 = 29% Decay
Char Level 30 = 39% Decay
Char Level 40 = 49% Decay
Char Level 41+ = 50% Decay

Stepwise curves are evil. Smooth curves are so much nicer.

*ahem*


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Just from a UI and complexity

Just from a UI and complexity standpoint - I think it would help it the different Augments/Refinements are visually distinct - different shapes, different "frames", etc. - if nothing else but to ease inventory management.

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Didnt see them mentioned but

Didnt see them mentioned but please add knockbacks. Some of most memorable fun I had in CoH was getting villains to chase me to the top of a tall building or other structure and then knocking them off of it. Sounds silly or sadistic depending on who you ask but I could seriously do that for hours........while laughing my butt off with childish glee.

As a ranged blaster, knockbacks were invaluable to me as they bought me extra time to fire off the next shot.

damage, healing, knockback, defense, holds..... the ability to customize powers to our individual playstyles was a large part of what made that game so great.

Glad to see youre going in the right direction with this one as well.

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But sometimes there’s weird

But sometimes there’s weird things, like a static bonus to regen, or a travel speed boost for all power sets. Those kind of power set augments get to live in your tertiary sets. But you only get one or two per character.

Better make that one or two each per character, Otherwise most people will stick with regeneration for health or energy and the others would be rarely used.

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This all sounds great. I love

This all sounds great. I love it.

"Visual traceability" is going to be key. Size, color, graphical detail for the emblems and icons, for example...but also pop-up help/notes, and a "staggered/layered" or "drill-down/look-through" method of presentation may also be helpful. Maybe something like mind-mapping meets an icon-driven Wiki.

I think the whole idea of a danger room itself is magnificent!
Unlimited discovery, planning, modifying and tinkering with the ability to share is GOLD.

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This sounds very interesting

This sounds very interesting to me. I love being able to customize the look and feel of my characters. It makes things like origin mean something if a can have my powers funnel through a ray gun, I can feel more like Tech if I want to.

I also love the line, "The things you make come from what you see and do and think of, not from looting the fallen." Thanks for that. I hate the thought of killing for reward in a Super Hero game. It's fine in adventure games, but super-heroes should not be expected to do that.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

I don't mind the upright triangle and the upside down triangle for the Augment/Refinement slots. They are visually different enough when you look at them in your Inventory, yet when slotted together it makes sense. What shape will the Power Aug Slot (PAS?) be? Hexagon/Circle/Square/Megagon?
While Im sure the examples given in the Update are just idea's I hope the image style we end up with is better than the lightning bolt example. It looks to... low-quality/kiddie (IMHO).

We are finishing up the design before we let the artists at the UI. We tried letting the artists go first, and wound up with 8 different UI styles and a completely inconsistent UI design as a result. So, now we are working on the design, and have a style guide being developed for that design.

So, saying the lightning bolt looks kiddie is very apt, and does not reflect a finished product, just the placeholder being used by our designers while our style is being hammered out.

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Godling wrote:
Godling wrote:

But sometimes there’s weird things, like a static bonus to regen, or a travel speed boost for all power sets. Those kind of power set augments get to live in your tertiary sets. But you only get one or two per character.
Better make that one or two each per character, Otherwise most people will stick with regeneration for health or energy and the others would be rarely used.

We have other steps in-place to reduce this which we are not yet ready to reveal. These steps also make something like the GDN and ED unneeded.

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Quote:
Quote:

Stepwise curves are evil. Smooth curves are so much nicer.

I like the way you think, DSFH.

As a complex system specialist, count on smooth curves, all over the place, if for no other reason then it allows us to tune in response to playtest / game data.

Love the FUNCTION, Love the LENS. Fear THE ENGINE..

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I just want to chime in and

I just want to chime in and say this looks extremely promising. I like the shape-sorter idea a bit more than I really should; but in my defense, I have small children. At any rate, it's very intuitive.

I'd be curious to see what kind of limitations are in mind for this system. The pictures in the update look like there is room for a maximum of 5 augments.

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Felix
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From the announcement:

From the announcement:

Quote:

Two, three, and that’s four. Four Augments per power. Right now, a base Augment is a 25% boost, so that’s 100% damage if you slot for nothing but damage.

Four is the number thou shalt count. Six is right out.

Felix

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I want to make sure I

I want to make sure I understand this correctly.

Depending on what you slot into the augment slot you get a varying number of refinement slots or each augment slot has a set number of refinement slots?

As to them "decaying" as you progress in level, isn't that meme sufficiently over used in MMO's that CoT should avoid it?

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Ah. I see that now. I had
Felix wrote:

From the announcement:
Quote:
Two, three, and that’s four. Four Augments per power. Right now, a base Augment is a 25% boost, so that’s 100% damage if you slot for nothing but damage.
Four is the number thou shalt count. Six is right out.
Felix

Ah. I see that now. I had taken that to refer to how many times the example character had leveled up, and therefore how many augment slots were available.

These augments are a separate system from the cosmetic stuff, right? I'm not going to have to choose between 25% more damage and, say, green lightning firing from my forehead, right? I think I missed the update that explained how the cosmetic adjustments for each power would be handled.

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AllYourBase wrote:
AllYourBase wrote:

These augments are a separate system from the cosmetic stuff, right? I'm not going to have to choose between 25% more damage and, say, green lightning firing from my forehead, right?

Yes, that will be separate, at least with our current thinking.

Felix

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AllYourBase wrote:
AllYourBase wrote:

These augments are a separate system from the cosmetic stuff, right? I'm not going to have to choose between 25% more damage and, say, green lightning firing from my forehead, right? I think I missed the update that explained how the cosmetic adjustments for each power would be handled.

The term is aesthetic decoupling. What a power looks like and what it does are not necessarily related. The power that is a ranged attack, explodes, and hurts a crowd can be a fire ball from your hand, eyes, it can be colored red / yellow or blue, or...it can be a grenade thrown, runes cast in the air, a ball of acid shot from a gun.

Augments that go into powers will only affect Aspects of the power - what the power does. And since what a power does and how it looks are decoupled...


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Wow. I cannot complain about

Wow. I cannot complain about the drips of info coming about, because each design update shows excellent ideas. Please keep up the high quality!

I love the flexibility you're designing in. On the player-side, giving us the capability to make multiple, real decisions about our powers. And enough choices that we can feel different from other heroes. On the developer-side, it looks like you're keeping things flexible enough that you make adjustments easily. And easily add new ideas, too.

warcabbit wrote:

We have the Function and the Lens, and both of those are critically important to what makes the game work. And we’ll tell you about them both… a lot closer to Alpha. (Whoever winds up making the next generation of Mids is going to need to know all about it. We’ll help, if we don’t do it ourselves.)

I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again, I hope that power-planner functionality is integrated into the avatar-creator. Maybe not in the initial release, but before the game itself goes live. It really is a fundamental part of character design.

Plus, the avatar-creator and power-planner need to work seamlessly with the game itself. So if I design an avatar, including powers, I can import it into the game and use it to guide my choices there.

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Felix, Tannim; Thanks for the

Felix, Tannim; Thanks for the responses. That really clears it up for me.

Now I'm even more excited. This sounds like an excellent system, from both sides.

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Another update that makes me

Another update that makes me say "I'm glad I donated, keep up the good work."

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So, I'm a little confused

So, I'm a little confused when you said, "What if you take this two-blades set and you want it to symbolize the focused totality of your psychic energies?... let’s find a Psychic Power Set Augment and put it in. "

Three questions I hope you can answer:

1. Do you have to defeat enemies to gain the psychic augment like you would a damage augment, or would the psychic augment be available at character creation?

Say I'm dead set on making a mutant whose genetic power is projecting fire through a weapon. I'd be annoyed if he has to fight enemies to gain the burning damage Augment. Wouldn't make sense if he's born with that power, and he's clearly an adult now, and can't project fire unless he cuts down some mobs to find this power he's supposed to be born with. 1.5 If this isn't the case, and it's available at character creation, then why are Damage Types and Statistical Improvements both called Augments? 1.75. Wouldn't damage type just be some sort of drop down under the power set?

2. Can you swap "augment" damage types or is it sealed upon character creation? I think it'd be ridiculous if people can swap out from electric to fire to psychic whenever their ADHD kicks in.

3. Do DMG augments go into the Circle icon on the top left of the Two Blade power set diagram?

If they are accepted into the same sockets, I'm not sure they should both be called "Augments" if Damage Type Augments are inherit in character creator, and Statistic Augments are found on the street.

Anyways, absolutely intrigued. Definitely the direction I personally want. Can't wait :D

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AllYourBase wrote:
AllYourBase wrote:

These augments are a separate system from the cosmetic stuff, right? I'm not going to have to choose between 25% more damage and, say, green lightning firing from my forehead, right? I think I missed the update that explained how the cosmetic adjustments for each power would be handled.

Yes.
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5 OClock Shadow wrote:
5 OClock Shadow wrote:

So, I'm a little confused when you said, "What if you take this two-blades set and you want it to symbolize the focused totality of your psychic energies?... let’s find a Psychic Power Set Augment and put it in. "
Three questions I hope you can answer:
1. Do you have to defeat enemies to gain the psychic augment like you would a damage augment, or would the psychic augment be available at character creation?
Say I'm dead set on making a mutant whose genetic power is projecting fire through a weapon. I'd be annoyed if he has to fight enemies to gain the burning damage Augment. Wouldn't make sense if he's born with that power, and he's clearly an adult now, and can't project fire unless he cuts down some mobs to find this power he's supposed to be born with. 1.5 If this isn't the case, and it's available at character creation, then why are Damage Types and Statistical Improvements both called Augments? 1.75. Wouldn't damage type just be some sort of drop down under the power set?
2. Can you swap "augment" damage types or is it sealed upon character creation? I think it'd be ridiculous if people can swap out from electric to fire to psychic whenever their ADHD kicks in.
3. Do DMG augments go into the Circle icon on the top left of the Two Blade power set diagram?
If they are accepted into the same sockets, I'm not sure they should both be called "Augments" if Damage Type Augments are inherit in character creator, and Statistic Augments are found on the street.
Anyways, absolutely intrigued. Definitely the direction I personally want. Can't wait :D

1. Augments are gained through game play. Exactly how Power Set Augments - that is the Augment that goes into the Power Set Augment Socket will be obtained has yet to be determined.

To clarify, you want character that can say, project fire at his enemies with a weapon. Say we have a Burning Blast set at launch. You can take the Burning Blast set, choose weapon animations and the weapon as the point of origin for your attacks. Then choose one of the Burning themes - like fire - and color it. There would be no need to worry about finding and Slotting a Heat Damage Power Set Augment. Though if you did and place it in your Power Set Augment Socket of your Burning Set, there may be a bonus to all your powers in the Burning Power Set.

2. We haven't addressed swapping out of Augments yet to the point of one way being settled upon.

3. Damage Augments (note there is no descriptor as to what type of damage) would be an Augment placed in an Augment Socket. Augment Sockets are provided at various level intervals and placed into powers as you choose.

To summarize:

Augments do not get placed in the Power Set Augment Socket. Augments go into Augment Sockets. Augments may come with one or Refinement Sockets. Refinements get placed into Refinement Sockets.
Augments are used to improve effects of the power. Example: Improve Damage
Refinements improve how the power delivers those effects. Example: Improve Accuracy

Power Set Augments do not get placed into an Augment Socket. Power Set Augments do not have Refinement Sockets. Power Set Augments get placed into Power Set Augment Sockets. Power Set Augments affect all the powers in the Power Set.


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I am seeing oodles of

I am seeing oodles of champions pnp here with regards to how powers can be set up....this makes me a very happy hero! man, character creation alone is going to be fun just to check out different possibilities. *big a$$ smile here!*

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I really enjoyed this update!

I really enjoyed this update!!! :)

Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.

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"Let’s level up a few more

"Let’s level up a few more times. Two, three, and that’s four. Four Augments per power."

The picture shows Electrical Blast with 2 Augments, 2 Refinements. This totals Four.

Does this mean that we can only have 4 improvements (Augments + Refinements) total, or does it mean that we can have 4 Augments + 1~4 Refinements ?

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4 Augments + 4 * (0-3)

4 Augments + 4 * (0-3) refinements = 4 Augments + 0-12 refinements. But normally 4 Augments + 4 refinements.

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For me, an easy way to look

For me, an easy way to look at the power augmentations would be to think of them as Power Replacers from Old CO (before On Alert). They basically made every ability within a certain powerset (or certain ability when it came to the guns) do a different type of damage and changed the actual damage. Say you had a Single Blade character in CO and equipped a Vibro-Katana Power Replacer. This made ALL of your abilities do sonic damage instead of slashing damage. On top of that, instead of say.. 200 damage per hit with your combo attack, Reaper's Caress, at Rank 3. It would now do only around 150ish, but you have that benefit of it being a WHOLLY different damage type (NOTHING protected against sonic damage IIRC except a few passives because there are only 3 sonic damage abilities).

The only problem with them were that you could only equip ONE at a time. Period. While it wasn't bad for Mysticism, Energy, Fire, Darkness, Single Blade, etc. since their respective PRs augmented any abilities tagged as [Insert Framework X] this was way more painful for any of the gun heroes since not a single one was tagged Munitions but rather for an individual power within that set.

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#3, Doh, I meant do damage

#3, Doh, I meant do damage type (psy, burning, etc)--is that placed in the Circle?

I follow you now though. Sweet.

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THIS IS AWESOME.

THIS IS AWESOME.

Nuff said.

Now, what is going to be the "Mids" for this game so I can get busy building... (rubs hands and Mu ha ha's)

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Felix wrote:
Felix wrote:

4 Augments + 4 * (0-3) refinements = 4 Augments + 0-12 refinements. But normally 4 Augments + 4 refinements.
Felix

So if I'm reading this correctly...we can have up to four augments in a power and potentially twelve additional refinements to those augments where the refinements include accuracy. So damage can be augmented, but accuracy requires refinement per the initial example.

I like this provided there is no overlap and exclusions and the augment versus refinement makes sense.

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OK, having gotten over my

OK, having gotten over my initial excitement (well, sort of... I'm still excited) and re-read the initial post as well as the comments of others, I, too, have some questions...

Felix wrote:

From the announcement:
Quote:
Two, three, and that’s four. Four Augments per power. Right now, a base Augment is a 25% boost, so that’s 100% damage if you slot for nothing but damage.
Four is the number thou shalt count. Six is right out.
Felix

Like some other folks, I thought the 4 Augments wasn't the endpoint but a picture of a character's power at an unspecified mid-level. If all powers (not just the Holy Hand Grenade) will have only 4 Augments no matter how high a level one's character is, how do these powers develop over time? Let's say that Electrical Blast is our lvl 1 power: will we have 4 Augs by the time we're lvl 20 and then that power is essentially "finished"? Or will the granting of those 4 Augs be spread out over the 1-to-max-lvl journey? Or do Augs get more Refinements as we level?

Also, do we get to decide which powers will get new Augs, a la CoX, so we can put the most development into the powers we like the most? Or are these hard-wired into the powers from the outset?

Felix wrote:

4 Augments + 4 * (0-3) refinements = 4 Augments + 0-12 refinements. But normally 4 Augments + 4 refinements.

So is the picture missing two Aug slots? Cuz it looks to me like it shows 2 Augs and 2 Refs, not 4 Augs.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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KenS wrote:
KenS wrote:

I want to make sure I understand this correctly.
Depending on what you slot into the augment slot you get a varying number of refinement slots or each augment slot has a set number of refinement slots?
As to them "decaying" as you progress in level, isn't that meme sufficiently over used in MMO's that CoT should avoid it?

Each *Augment* may have 0-3 refinement slots in it. Additional, some (or even all) of those might be filled by 'fixed' refinements, things that are just part of the augment from the word go. Generally there would be some tradeoff with those in exchange for the loss of flexibiity; the details of exactly what are a balance question and not liable to be well-settled until *at least* multiple round of live alpha testing have happened.

For those who do the 'cold slab mixed ice cream' thing: the augment is the ice cream flavor, and the refinements are the mix-ins. Only it is weird ice cream, so some flavors may not be able to take as many mix-ins as others. And if you order from the "pre-defined" list, you can't add as many mix-ins but you might get a price break or a waffle bowl upgrade for free or... something. The metaphor is starting to stretch a bit thin...

As for decaying: the choices pretty much boil down to that or stat hyper-inflation. But here's the kicker: in the end, they're both the same. Balance is decided by looking at the outputs and then "working backwards" to figure out how to adjust the inputs so that they produce a better result. So the changes between the two might look notably different, but the place that it starts (and comes back to), the place that actually controls what those numbers *mean*, is the output side.

A pure "spiritual successor" would just do precisely what CoH did -- decay over the span of a handful of levels and then fall off a cliff -- but that didn't fit in with the 'smooth curves' approach to the math very well. It also, frankly, always seemed kind of silly that somehow whatever thing you had that gave you extra oompf just suddenly stopped working *altogether*, rather than becoming progressively less useful as you outgrew it.

It also isn't the only counter to stat inflation built into the system, but the rest is related to details that Cabbit hasn't made public yet, so it wouldn't be appropriate for me to delve into it just at the moment. Suffice to say that like so much else, the math is being built based on a combination of things learned (both good and bad) from CoH, plus solid fundamentals, and using general best practices such as modular design / architecture, separation of responsibilities, and clear boundaries between sub-systems.

Strangely enough, while they're usually talked about as software design goals, they tend to work out pretty well when applied to almost any complex system. For values of 'strangely' that really amount to "this should not be in any way surprising."


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The picture is just an

The picture is just an example of a power with to Augs and two Refs. Four Aug Sockets are the defined limit for powers. Most Augs will have one Ref Socket. Augs with 2 or those with even 3 Sockets will not be the common representation of an Augment in the game. Aug sockets will be awarded at various level intervals and placed into powers selected by the player. So yes you will get to decide which powers to focus on.


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I give 2 Billion Inf for a 3

I give 2 Billion Inf for a 3 Socket Damage Aug!

Hmm wait did I just figure something out? The more Sockets an Aug has the more Rare and thus valuable it would be right?

If my guess is right then you have.

Damage Aug 1 Ref sockets
Damage Aug 2 Ref sockets
Damage Aug 3 Ref sockets

Or will the 3 Ref Sockets be just for special Augs not just rare or hard to find ones. Say a

Damage Aug 1 Ref
Stun effect Aug 2 Refs
Knockback Aug has 3 Refs.

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Thanks Tannim -- that answers

Thanks Tannim -- that answers all my questions. I now return to my regularly scheduled excitement.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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If each augment can have 0-3

If each augment can have 0-3 refinement slots, I'm wondering how on earth with the current UI shape posted, we will be able to see all our powers when they'll have so many dropdowns. I can't wait to see what the final UI will look like (and I'm secretly hoping it won't be using triangles ;) ). Also, do you have a good limit on to how many augments we will see max? Just 4? 8? 10? 500? CoH's number just seemed right, but I suppose it'll depend on how stats are going to scale in general.

I like the smooth curves though, it's a much better system in that you don't end up going, "So I bought these augments at level 5, and if I level up 1 more time, they'll become absolutely useless to me and I'll have to buy knew ones and throw those out. If I knew this was going to happen, I would have just never bothered with augments until I'm max level!" which is semi-positive in a RPG standpoint, but generally it makes the user experience worse than if it just slowly slid from a 25% boost to 5% boost and never really becomes useless.
A real life example being: Current MMO Standard: You buy a television with a cable connection, next year cable is no longer being used. | Smooth Curve: You buy a television with a cable connection, over the next 10 years, cable is being phased out, you'll still be able to watch TV, but when 2024 comes along, you'll be laughed at for using it. (Note: Cable is not really being phased out, so don't worry!)

At first it looks intimidating, but after you look at it for awhile, it's very simple. I like the ideas you've been coming up with for the game and I only have high hopes it'll stay this quality. Nice job so far, can't wait for the finished product :D

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The level of customization we

The level of customization we are apparently going to have, right down to how we display the power, the way it animates, whether it's from a weapon or part of the body...well it's staggering to me. Are these features going to bog down the development time or is there some kind of system in place that makes it easier to code than I think?

Currently trapped inside the Speed Force...

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Yup, it's called Unreal

Yup, it's called Unreal Engine 4 :D.

Seriously, it's that amazing. We switched for a reason and that reason has been consistently born out. Doctor Tyche once told me it makes Unreal 3 look clunky.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

Yup, it's called Unreal Engine 4 :D.
Seriously, it's that amazing. We switched for a reason and that reason has been consistently born out. Doctor Tyche once told me it makes Unreal 3 look clunky.

But will it clean my cats' litter box?

;)

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Maybe with the next expansion

Maybe with the next expansion :P

Seriously though, point is, these incredible functions are often at least partly supported by the engine's inherent capabilities. The ability to choose where the animation emits from, for instance, we don't actually have to do much of anything for that, it's *there* already. And it inherently has the capability to 'assemble' a power from pieces of code, allowing for many of our other customization ideas.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

To clarify, you want character that can say, project fire at his enemies with a weapon. Say we have a Burning Blast set at launch. You can take the Burning Blast set, choose weapon animations and the weapon as the point of origin for your attacks. Then choose one of the Burning themes - like fire - and color it. There would be no need to worry about finding and Slotting a Heat Damage Power Set Augment. Though if you did and place it in your Power Set Augment Socket of your Burning Set, there may be a bonus to all your powers in the Burning Power Set.

Hmm, ok, confused once again. Something sounds backwards, or perhaps these are just different avenues of approaching the character. What about the Two-Blades/Psychic Augment Warcabbit mentions? He basically says choose set, paint blades translucent pink in character creator, then find a psychic augment:

Set: Two-Blades
Animation: What else could go here besides Two-Blades? Several blade type animation options I'm guessing.
Theme: Seems like Theme is already set in Two-Blades?
Augment: Psychic Damage
Character creator: Translucent pink sword

Differently, you're saying (For the sake of consistency, let's stick with Psychic/Two-Blades):

Set: Psychic Blast (or would it Psychic Melee for Gladiators?)
Animation: Two-Blades
Theme: Psychic Glow
Augment: Psychic Damage
Character creator: Translucent Pink Sword

Perhaps you can go either route? Warcabbit's set would just have Lethal Damage (whatever standard blade damage), and later augmented by Psychic Damage. Yours would be Psychic Damage augmented with more Psychic damage, but no Lethal Damage involved (unless you pick lethal augment instead of course)?

With Warcabbit's version, it seems you run the risk of having a psychic-faux translucent pink sword until you find a psychic augment off a mob several levels in. Whereas yours, you'd have to augment Lethal later on for the katana to actually be relevant. Well, unless the blade is pure psy-blade, then I guess no need for Lethal.

One other angle: I can see my character's Ultimate Katana Attack to be the only power to augment Electric Damage rather than on the entire set--showcasing the sheer power unleashed rather than having being a electrokinetic mutant or katana taser on at all times--would this be possible in the future? Holy crap, I ask too many questions

Mentioned before, I actually don't mind the triangles. I like the inverse triangle beneath it. Could work fine with octagons or hexagons though. I'm a visual learning kind of guy, so more diagrams from you guys the better. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by making this diagram, but would be cool if they stacked like this:

Set is Katana with Toxic Damage (ok, breaking the consistency). Does this diagram come close?

^Not an image from MWM.

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Well, we'll want Refinements

Well, we'll want Refinements to all be the same shape, whatever we wind up using, but that's something we're going to change a few times. I favor the triangles, it's simple.
Essentially, you're correct.

Here's a question I have no answer to.

Let's assume, for the sake of assuming, there is no huge advantage to Psychic over Slicing damage. Just pretend, for now.
The Psychic Power Set Augments available (we'll probably call it something else eventually, so it's not confused with normal augments - you noticed the different shape) will replace half or all your Slicing damage with Psychic.

So, not extra damage, just 'instead of' damage.

Now, there's two ways to get things. One is a drop in game.
However, people are saying 'I want this from character creation.'

Okay. So... while it'd still be available as a world drop, would it be acceptable in a store? No game advantage, maybe it'd come in a package with psychic weapons and power FX.
... I kinda like that package idea.

Anyhow, would that be acceptable, or too P2W?

Your answer matters.

Fair warning: This means converters won't change secondary effects, just damage type. I know how things go. People would go crazy putting a damage type with a traditional secondary effect of 'slow' with a slow heavy set and break everything. I'd like to avoid that kind of behavior.

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My character would probably

My character would probably LOOK like a psychic damage set but the theme is to be electromagnetic in concept.

I have two thoughts on the converter suggestion:

1) IF a (only ONE) "carte blanc" Augment to change all damage type to a different damage type is available and each character gets one free Augment at creation I find this acceptable because:

a) It's free to all players
b) The cost is not the same for all builds but what's free for me is free for you.

- -

2) I dont like the idea that because my combat design may not be in game at launch or even afterward that I would lose combat currency (damage, hold strength, heal strength, debuff strength, etc) just because the game does not allow them.
I understand that on a power by power basis the ability to change a percentage of the damage to a secondary type is quite potent and potentially game-breaking and thus should have a cost associated. But I do not want to make these choices on a power by power basis. Because I assume for the sake of assuming that Psychic has no advantage over Slicing damage.

3) I'm perfectly willing to pay for Augs. As long as the character limit is set it is not P2W to me. The parity remains unchanged but the customization comes at a cost.

4) The balances of how many of what type Augs are available should likely depend on your role. Ranged characters with movement debuff augs should be rare. The open system you propose may come with more harm than good.

- -

In general:
I think that any Change in magnitude (DPS, HPS, BPS, DBPS, CPS etc) should require direct investment.

Any lateral change of damage type should be rare and available on a all or nothing basis when choosing power pools. Primary Power pool is psychic, then you have a choice to change that entire pool or none of it. Secondary pool is Fire then you can change the entire pool or none of it. ALTERNATIVELY to changing the entire pool you can focus the entire pool on a different pool wide Augmentation like +Accuracy etc.

Lateral changes on a power by power basis are quite dangerous is all I'm saying.

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On a personal level, I do not

On a personal level, I do not like the selling of any augments in the cash store. I really think they should be found via in-game vendors, drops, crafted, or bought for the AH. That being said, if you are already going through with selling other kinds of augments through the store I would not consider it pay to win.

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I don't consider something

I don't consider something Pay 2 Win IF you can get it another way. Doing a special quest to get a rare item that's also in the store is fine. The item can be gained without paying.

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Honestly, I'm kind of split.

Honestly, I'm kind of split. On one hand, I like the idea of being able to make a super powered mutant who has the innate power to project fire through any object he touches. It's innate, not really an augment--therefore you should be able to pick that damage type in the beginning--which we can under Power Set. On the other, I like the idea of creating an Olympic level human who utilizes an electric augment through his weapon, and later being able to swap it out with a fire augment when he comes across mobs with low fire resistance. Sure, I could make an electric melee character through aesthetic decoupling a techno-electric broadsword , and call his weapon Taseredge, but that weapon defines his character. I feel Electric Augments would treat a different purpose. The augment would be used as a new layer, but it wouldn't define the Titan.

Actually, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say lol. In the end, it looks like there are a shit load of alternatives to portray our Titans' powers. So I personally vote no on having Damage Type Augments at character creation. If there is psychic melee, I'd most likely pick the psychic melee set with dual blades theme/animations--if this decoupling is possible.

Instead of power set damage types, will there be power set augments that will make attacks over all more debilitating or recharge faster? A debilitating or recharge augment would round out my techno-electric broadsword Titan's "Sword Skill" rather than adding a Fire Augment or Electric Augment.

As far as buying damage type augments, I really don't see an issue with buying them at level 20+ augment shops. At least the common ones. I personally don't think they should be bought with real money. Gaining special augments like that out of the blue while destroying mobs is very rewarding. Especially if those augments are worth something in the market. It helps the economy.

That psychic package w/ the augment does sound kickass though. I think that's where paying $$$ for augments would be good rather than having every single damage type augment available in the game store at our disposal.

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There also the possibility

There also the possibility someone could do as 5 Oclock said. Change Power Damage types for each foe. Instead of being a tool for customization it be a tool for Min/Maxing and exploitation. So the Question comes down to How often can one change there Power Damage type?

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we'll want Refinements to all be the same shape, whatever we wind up using, but that's something we're going to change a few times. I favor the triangles, it's simple.
Essentially, you're correct.
Here's a question I have no answer to.
Let's assume, for the sake of assuming, there is no huge advantage to Psychic over Slicing damage. Just pretend, for now.
The Psychic Power Set Augments available (we'll probably call it something else eventually, so it's not confused with normal augments - you noticed the different shape) will replace half or all your Slicing damage with Psychic.
So, not extra damage, just 'instead of' damage.
Now, there's two ways to get things. One is a drop in game.
However, people are saying 'I want this from character creation.'
Okay. So... while it'd still be available as a world drop, would it be acceptable in a store? No game advantage, maybe it'd come in a package with psychic weapons and power FX.
... I kinda like that package idea.
Anyhow, would that be acceptable, or too P2W?
Your answer matters.
Fair warning: This means converters won't change secondary effects, just damage type. I know how things go. People would go crazy putting a damage type with a traditional secondary effect of 'slow' with a slow heavy set and break everything. I'd like to avoid that kind of behavior.

It's hard to answer this without knowing how much of a difference damage type makes. Is it literally no difference, like the color of a power? Or is it "we've tried to make all damage types equally useful, but it'll be an ongoing balancing act".

If the power set augment is purely cosmetic, then there's no reason a character couldn't choose it or change it like any other part of their costume (that is, some minimal cost). If it has some "balanced" effect, then there's no problem requiring the character to earn it through play. That might mean a newly created character isn't exactly what the player wanted to design, but that's part of the RPG paradigm--the character evolves through play.

I like the idea of being able to buy customizations, in general. Certainly anything cosmetic is fair game to be pay-to-wear.

But something that has an in-game effect, even if it's "balanced", is a step too far towards pay-to-win. Anything that has any effect (beyond the appearance) cannot be perfectly balanced. Some clever player will find some way to make use of this or that pay-to-play effect and suddenly we'll have a "flavor of the month" that must be bought. Yecch! I'd like to avoid that completely. Even if the augment can be found another way, unless it's very common, it'll still be perceived as pay-to-win.

As for secondary effects, would it be possible to change those? Suppose instead of Slow, I wanted Knockback? Can I put in a set augment that changes it?

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Right, buying something with
RottenLuck wrote:

I don't consider something Pay 2 Win IF you can get it another way. Doing a special quest to get a rare item that's also in the store is fine. The item can be gained without paying.

Right, buying something with $$$ that can be found in game isn't P2W really, but it devalues in game effort. I feel lucky as hell to gain this Toxic Augment after clearing out this insane mission, but some dude standing next to me at the market who just logged just bought one on the MWM website. It's like getting ready to cook a gourmet dinner, then someone walks in unannounced with a pizza. You're like, ah screw it, I'll eat now instead. Why should I bust my ass to get that augment if it's dangling in front of me for 5 credits or whatever the web currency would be. There's no sense of accomplishment--only desensitized gain.

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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we'll want Refinements to all be the same shape, whatever we wind up using, but that's something we're going to change a few times. I favor the triangles, it's simple.
Essentially, you're correct.
Here's a question I have no answer to.
Let's assume, for the sake of assuming, there is no huge advantage to Psychic over Slicing damage. Just pretend, for now.
The Psychic Power Set Augments available (we'll probably call it something else eventually, so it's not confused with normal augments - you noticed the different shape) will replace half or all your Slicing damage with Psychic.
So, not extra damage, just 'instead of' damage.
Now, there's two ways to get things. One is a drop in game.
However, people are saying 'I want this from character creation.'
Okay. So... while it'd still be available as a world drop, would it be acceptable in a store? No game advantage, maybe it'd come in a package with psychic weapons and power FX.
... I kinda like that package idea.
Anyhow, would that be acceptable, or too P2W?
Your answer matters.
Fair warning: This means converters won't change secondary effects, just damage type. I know how things go. People would go crazy putting a damage type with a traditional secondary effect of 'slow' with a slow heavy set and break everything. I'd like to avoid that kind of behavior.

In the original example of the Electrical Blast, it sounded like this was a sub-type of Energy Blast. Is this the case, or was this a result of a Power Set Augment?

If that is the case, then it stands to reason that weapon-based sets should also have sub-types. Want an ice hammer? Energy hoops? Psychic blades? Those are sub-types of the appropriate weapon set.

If that is not the case, then I think there should be a 1st-level Power Set Augment given to every character for just this purpose. It'd be something that (if they're replaceable) would be quickly outgrown, but would let the character "hit the ground running" with their preferred style.

The way I'm thinking, this would be a "choose one" sort of thing, and can even include the "default" augment. For example: You picked Two-Blades? Pick an initial Power Set Augment: Lethal, Cold, Fire, Psychic, Electric, etc. Each would add an appropriately-scaled amount of its damage type and side effect to each power in the set. Perhaps this could even be part of the tutorial.

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So one of the things that

So one of the things that really annoyed me with IO was the fact that I couldn't just get exactly what I wanted through a store and I had to depend on random chance to get what I wanted so I really want a store in the game that sells refinements and a store that sells power set augmentations so that I can get exactly what I want rather than hoping that I get a psionic augmentation and not having a part of my concept with me if I don't get it.

I also think I have a solution for the people wanting powerset augmentations at character creation. What if at character creation the player can make a choice of 3 options. An additional power of either powerset that they currently have, an additional power set augmentation with a choice a basic powerset that doesn't add any other bonuses than replacing half your damage with another type or a power set augmentation that they have the option of buying from the cash shop, and a tertiary power set. That way people who want to start off with psionic blades described in the article can do so, people who want to augment their class with another power set type can do so as well and anyone who doesn't want either of those options has an option that's just as good as them without being under or over powered. Would this work?

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

2) I dont like the idea that because my combat design may not be in game at launch or even afterward that I would lose combat currency (damage, hold strength, heal strength, debuff strength, etc) just because the game does not allow them.

What does this mean? I would like to address your point, but I am not getting it.

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AllYourBase wrote:
AllYourBase wrote:

In the original example of the Electrical Blast, it sounded like this was a sub-type of Energy Blast. Is this the case, or was this a result of a Power Set Augment?

No, it's a case of me deciding that electrical blast sounded better. None of the examples are a final power set. (We have all the launch sets specced out.)

As things go, changing damage type explicitly does not change the secondary effect in a power, though it does change the damage type of the secondary effect, if the secondary effect does damage. (Lighting things on fire tends to do more fire damage. If you want to use cold fire, you slot cold.)

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

The level of customization we are apparently going to have, right down to how we display the power, the way it animates, whether it's from a weapon or part of the body...well it's staggering to me. Are these features going to bog down the development time or is there some kind of system in place that makes it easier to code than I think?

First: remember that these are plans and intentions, not yet givens, although we (well, I) have not yet run into anything that indicates it will be horribly problematic.

Fundamentally, there are three things involved in making this possible:

  1. Learning from the successes and failures of the past.
  2. Having an engine that breaks things down into fundamental operations, under the hood, and is intentionally built to allow both extensions and creative uses of existing features by stringing them together in novel ways.
  3. Having folks with experience analyzing complex requirements and finding ways to break them down into interactions of much simpler requirements.
  4. A fanatical devotion to… making it a system that will set the standard bar for the genre over the *next* ten years.

Point 1 means we will at least be making creative new mistakes rather than boring old ones.

Point 2 is at the heart of both the UNIX design philosophy (now something like 40 years old, and still going strong) and object-oriented programming (the software equivalent of that philosophy, in many ways).

Point 3 boils down to having folks who can actually take advantage of point 2 and apply those tools to breaking down what is otherwise a ridiculously complex problem into pieces that are vastly smaller and actually tenable.

Oh, and one of the other advantages of point 2 is that if it comes down to it you can often "push out" the more complex features to a later point, without having it destroy the other work you've done so far, because pieces build on each other more like a pyramid than a Jenga tower.


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warcabbit wrote:
warcabbit wrote:

Well, we'll want Refinements to all be the same shape, whatever we wind up using, but that's something we're going to change a few times. I favor the triangles, it's simple.
Essentially, you're correct.
Here's a question I have no answer to.
Let's assume, for the sake of assuming, there is no huge advantage to Psychic over Slicing damage. Just pretend, for now.
The Psychic Power Set Augments available (we'll probably call it something else eventually, so it's not confused with normal augments - you noticed the different shape) will replace half or all your Slicing damage with Psychic.
So, not extra damage, just 'instead of' damage.
Now, there's two ways to get things. One is a drop in game.
However, people are saying 'I want this from character creation.'
Okay. So... while it'd still be available as a world drop, would it be acceptable in a store? No game advantage, maybe it'd come in a package with psychic weapons and power FX.
... I kinda like that package idea.
Anyhow, would that be acceptable, or too P2W?
Your answer matters.
Fair warning: This means converters won't change secondary effects, just damage type. I know how things go. People would go crazy putting a damage type with a traditional secondary effect of 'slow' with a slow heavy set and break everything. I'd like to avoid that kind of behavior.

Third option, not exclusive of the other two: ways to create them and trade/send them, so that your buddy can say "hey, got you covered, just let me know when you have the character ready and I'll get you set up with a damage-swap auggie."

Obviously that ties into several other conversations that are still ongoing, but it is one way to address it without making the cash store the *only* option for having-at-chargen.


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Something seems to be missing

Something seems to be missing from the Front Page.

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I am not a fan of anything

I am not a fan of anything other than cosmetic changes being offered for $$$ in the store (although I am honestly not even a fan of cosmetic changes needing to be purchased separately). it opens up that slippery slope that can eventually lead to powers/augments/whathaveyou only being purchased via the store (not sayng it will or would, but the possibility is there). I have every intention on getting a subscription and gladly pay it, but if I am paying for a subscription, I should have access to ALL powers/augments/whathaveyou without the need to to pay even more for said item.

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5 OClock Shadow wrote:
5 OClock Shadow wrote:

Hmm, ok, confused once again. Something sounds backwards, or perhaps these are just different avenues of approaching the character. What about the Two-Blades/Psychic Augment Warcabbit mentions? He basically says choose set, paint blades translucent pink in character creator, then find a psychic augment:

The possibility of choosing damage type on the outside of character design actually goes against the grain of one of the portions for how we are setting up design of powers. Otherwise, a special augment needed to be placed on your power-set wouldn't be necessary at all. We would essentially make multiple versions of the same power over and over and allow players to choose every damage type per-power or use a "apply to entire set option". This isn't an option because one of the fundamental building blocks we are using to design powers is damage type.

There are 2 possible paths in fulfilling a concept: 1. Use what is available in the character creator. 2. Use what the game makes possible through play.

1. Looks like this: Take the idea of a Psychic Weapons. One path would be if we had a Psychic Melee set that did Psychic Damage and had "affect the mind" themed effects. You then choose weapon animations, color to your liking and done.

2. Looks like this: Take a Weapon based melee set, as you play find an Psychic Damage Power Set Augment and decide to slot it. Maybe it never occured to you to make your weapons Psychic-based. Maybe you like the idea of something happening that caused your powers to change during play. Maybe you had that Augment from another character, given to you by a friend, etc...and decided to slot it on the outset.

Keep in mind, were are still itinerating here. We want to offer a way to possibly altering damage types to fit concepts. How that happens can't break the mold for how we use the building blocks for power design. If so. we either go back to looking at the building blocks, or we look at the method of application.

Quote:

Mentioned before, I actually don't mind the triangles. I like the inverse triangle beneath it. Could work fine with octagons or hexagons though. I'm a visual learning kind of guy, so more diagrams from you guys the better. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by making this diagram, but would be cool if they stacked like this:
Set is Katana with Toxic Damage (ok, breaking the consistency). Does this diagram come close?

^Not an image from MWM.

Augments and Refinements would have clear shape-based distinction from one another. As Cabbit said, if we were to stick with triangles, Augs would be up, Refs down.


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I would use that attack when

I would use that attack when shooting at feet & rename it Chi toes....GRIN. Sorry had to be said.

Loving all the ideas &discussions on the power customizing.

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Something seems to be missing from the Front Page.

I noticed that too...curious.

The update is awesome! This is an innovative way to allow customization and dodge the "gear" issue while still allowing toons to gain power over time in ways other than levelling and allows for post-avatar builder modification.

I'm still awaiting a guts look at the Avatar Builder to see what things (weapons, power colours, animations, auras, etc) look like and the UI, since I'd seen references to an alpha of that coming "summer 2014', breath held ;)

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

(snip)
1. Looks like this: Take the idea of a Psychic Weapons. One path would be if we had a Psychic Melee set that did Psychic Damage and had "affect the mind" themed effects. You then choose weapon animations, color to your liking and done.
(snip again)

This approach seems odd... I'd originally assumed damage type, like appearance, would be decoupled from the specifics of how the powers worked (meaning you don't have to make a specific set for each damage type, and we'd get to blast people with lightning made of snow or whatever). Maybe I'm missing something, though.

Granted, it's possible that some damage types may inherently be better than others in some way, but the effectiveness of powers could be tweaked based on their damage type accordingly (e.g. if more enemies resist fire than sonic, a sonic blade might have lower base damage than its fiery counterparts) - if there're going to be augments that change damage type, such things would have to be taken into account anyway.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

I'm still awaiting a guts look at the Avatar Builder to see what things (weapons, power colours, animations, auras, etc) look like and the UI, since I'd seen references to an alpha of that coming "summer 2014', breath held ;)

Darth Fez told us of a daring expedition into Facebook to learn that:

Darth Fez wrote:

...we now know that they're aiming to make the AB available in December (in case 'end of the year' was too vague).

But I think (not sure, I'm not brave enough to use Faceboook ^_^) that that may be the Beta or possibly even the "final" (i.e., it has every costume option they've worked the bugs out of at the time, but more would be added later), not the Alpha. I think, though, that the references you saw may have been from before they knew they'd get to use UE4 and had to put things on hold to learn to use it.

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Man, thanks for responding to

Man, thanks for responding to my posts, guys. Just saying it's good to have an active forum.

Tannim222 wrote:

The possibility of choosing damage type on the outside of character design actually goes against the grain of one of the portions for how we are setting up design of powers. Otherwise, a special augment needed to be placed on your power-set wouldn't be necessary at all. We would essentially make multiple versions of the same power over and over and allow players to choose every damage type per-power or use a "apply to entire set option". This isn't an option because one of the fundamental building blocks we are using to design powers is damage type.
There are 2 possible paths in fulfilling a concept: 1. Use what is available in the character creator. 2. Use what the game makes possible through play.
1. Looks like this: Take the idea of a Psychic Weapons. One path would be if we had a Psychic Melee set that did Psychic Damage and had "affect the mind" themed effects. You then choose weapon animations, color to your liking and done.
2. Looks like this: Take a Weapon based melee set, as you play find an Psychic Damage Power Set Augment and decide to slot it. Maybe it never occured to you to make your weapons Psychic-based. Maybe you like the idea of something happening that caused your powers to change during play. Maybe you had that Augment from another character, given to you by a friend, etc...and decided to slot it on the outset.
Keep in mind, were are still itinerating here. We want to offer a way to possibly altering damage types to fit concepts. How that happens can't break the mold for how we use the building blocks for power design. If so. we either go back to looking at the building blocks, or we look at the method of application.

Ok excellent. It's all coming together.

Tannim222 wrote:

Augments and Refinements would have clear shape-based distinction from one another. As Cabbit said, if we were to stick with triangles, Augs would be up, Refs down.

Makes sense. I pictured an imaginary dividing line between Augments and Refinements, so basically everything below the "Aug line" would be Refinement territory. Same shape would be best for simplicity sake. Works for me though. Again, can't wait :D

Edit: It really matters when you're looking in your inventory when new items come in, or you're slotting. At a glance, you should be able to know what goes where without having to read socket labels.

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Question time!

Question time!

1. What are your current ideas on how we earn augments and refinements in game?

2. When I level do I pick the power that gets the augment slot like CoHs enhancements (up to the max of 4)? or is it automatic?

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Darth Fez told us of a daring expedition into Facebook to learn that:
Darth Fez wrote:
...we now know that they're aiming to make the AB available in December (in case 'end of the year' was too vague).

But I think (not sure, I'm not brave enough to use Faceboook ^_^) that that may be the Beta or possibly even the "final" (i.e., it has every costume option they've worked the bugs out of at the time, but more would be added later), not the Alpha. I think, though, that the references you saw may have been from before they knew they'd get to use UE4 and had to put things on hold to learn to use it.

I'd be happy to see the beta of the AB drop in December but I would be over the moon if the final actually dropped at that point! eitherway, I am definitely looking forward to seeing it and playing with the possibilities in addition to start hammering down how my mains will look before the actual game drops. :)

in regards to the way powers sets are shaping up, I am really liking it! it definitely allows for a ton of freedom in selection of powers and how they function, which should allow folks to get closer to the character they had in mind. will it be full proof and allow for everything? highly doubtful, but with just the bits and pieces we have seen thus far one can't complain that there's no choice on how we develop our characters power sets or how they function.

...again, I am one happy hero for what I have seen here!

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

The level of customization we are apparently going to have, right down to how we display the power, the way it animates, whether it's from a weapon or part of the body...well it's staggering to me. Are these features going to bog down the development time or is there some kind of system in place that makes it easier to code than I think?

It actually reduces the time to develop.

Realize, we will be shipping with a reduced selection, and growing it over time. We add a new animation suite, it enhances multiple power sets. Add augment designs, again, adds to multiple. We can start with less and add more over time a lot easier this way.

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whiteperegrine wrote:
whiteperegrine wrote:

I am not a fan of anything other than cosmetic changes being offered for $$$ in the store (although I am honestly not even a fan of cosmetic changes needing to be purchased separately). it opens up that slippery slope that can eventually lead to powers/augments/whathaveyou only being purchased via the store (not sayng it will or would, but the possibility is there). I have every intention on getting a subscription and gladly pay it, but if I am paying for a subscription, I should have access to ALL powers/augments/whathaveyou without the need to to pay even more for said item.

Anything earned in game is not to be alone, however, and would be tied to a badge which can only be earned through gameplay. So, someone who purchased a cape design will not have the associated badge with it, so you can instantly tell who bought it vs earned it. And there will be some elements which can only be earned through gameplay, while there will not be anything purchasable which cannot be earned through game play.

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I know, drastically off topic

I know, drastically off topic, but +1. Whatever the Controller equivalent in City of Titans is, that would be hilarious to watch. Probably not as a set by itself but something like "Psychic Fearmonger" along with other illusory/self-inflicted damage.

The Itch: single target hold.
Hyperventilation: cone effect, target immob.
Arachnophobia: AoE, weak placate.
Etc.

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Felix wrote:
Felix wrote:

JayBezz wrote:
2) I dont like the idea that because my combat design may not be in game at launch or even afterward that I would lose combat currency (damage, hold strength, heal strength, debuff strength, etc) just because the game does not allow them.
What does this mean? I would like to address your point, but I am not getting it.
Felix

Lets assume that I want to slot for damage (i really don't but for this argument)

If I want my powers to be electromagnetic instead of psychic then my character can only get at most 3 damage slots (75% damage boost) and if the game had originally allowed my power set in character design I would have been allowed all 4 aug slots for damage (100% damage boost).

The aug system described gives my character a performance penalty. I agree with the penalty on a per power basis because of the implications it has on gameplay. But I do not agree with the penalty on a full power set basis.

I sincerely hope that the per power solution is not the only place for damage replacers.

Tannim222 wrote:

The possibility of choosing damage type on the outside of character design actually goes against the grain of one of the portions for how we are setting up design of powers. Otherwise, a special augment needed to be placed on your power-set wouldn't be necessary at all. We would essentially make multiple versions of the same power over and over and allow players to choose every damage type per-power or use a "apply to entire set option". This isn't an option because one of the fundamental building blocks we are using to design powers is damage type.
There are 2 possible paths in fulfilling a concept: 1. Use what is available in the character creator. 2. Use what the game makes possible through play.
1. Looks like this: Take the idea of a Psychic Weapons. One path would be if we had a Psychic Melee set that did Psychic Damage and had "affect the mind" themed effects. You then choose weapon animations, color to your liking and done.
2. Looks like this: Take a Weapon based melee set, as you play find an Psychic Damage Power Set Augment and decide to slot it. Maybe it never occured to you to make your weapons Psychic-based. Maybe you like the idea of something happening that caused your powers to change during play. Maybe you had that Augment from another character, given to you by a friend, etc...and decided to slot it on the outset.
Keep in mind, were are still itinerating here. We want to offer a way to possibly altering damage types to fit concepts. How that happens can't break the mold for how we use the building blocks for power design. If so. we either go back to looking at the building blocks, or we look at the method of application.

I am seeing that the power set has an aug slot in this post and I may have misunderstood. Is augmentation on a per ability basis or on a per power set basis?

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OK, the augment slot that

OK, the augment slot that changes damage type is a power set augment (maybe we should refer to it as a converter), which is separate and does not share any functionality with power augments. So to change damage type, you would slot the converter with that change, and the powers with your 4 damages.

Felix

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JayBezz wrote:
JayBezz wrote:

Felix wrote:
JayBezz wrote:
2) I dont like the idea that because my combat design may not be in game at launch or even afterward that I would lose combat currency (damage, hold strength, heal strength, debuff strength, etc) just because the game does not allow them.

What does this mean? I would like to address your point, but I am not getting it.
Felix

Lets assume that I want to slot for damage (i really don't but for this argument)
If I want my powers to be electromagnetic instead of psychic then my character can only get at most 3 damage slots (75% damage boost) and if the game had originally allowed my power set in character design I would have been allowed all 4 aug slots for damage (100% damage boost).
The aug system described gives my character a performance penalty. I agree with the penalty on a per power basis because of the implications it has on gameplay. But I do not agree with the penalty on a full power set basis.
I sincerely hope that the per power solution is not the only place for damage replacers.
Tannim222 wrote:
The possibility of choosing damage type on the outside of character design actually goes against the grain of one of the portions for how we are setting up design of powers. Otherwise, a special augment needed to be placed on your power-set wouldn't be necessary at all. We would essentially make multiple versions of the same power over and over and allow players to choose every damage type per-power or use a "apply to entire set option". This isn't an option because one of the fundamental building blocks we are using to design powers is damage type.
There are 2 possible paths in fulfilling a concept: 1. Use what is available in the character creator. 2. Use what the game makes possible through play.
1. Looks like this: Take the idea of a Psychic Weapons. One path would be if we had a Psychic Melee set that did Psychic Damage and had "affect the mind" themed effects. You then choose weapon animations, color to your liking and done.
2. Looks like this: Take a Weapon based melee set, as you play find an Psychic Damage Power Set Augment and decide to slot it. Maybe it never occured to you to make your weapons Psychic-based. Maybe you like the idea of something happening that caused your powers to change during play. Maybe you had that Augment from another character, given to you by a friend, etc...and decided to slot it on the outset.
Keep in mind, were are still itinerating here. We want to offer a way to possibly altering damage types to fit concepts. How that happens can't break the mold for how we use the building blocks for power design. If so. we either go back to looking at the building blocks, or we look at the method of application.

I am seeing that the power set has an aug slot in this post and I may have misunderstood. Is augmentation on a per ability basis or on a per power set basis?

Primary And Secondary Power Sets have a Power Set Augment Socket into which only a Power Set Augment may be placed. One example given of a Power Set Augment is let us call it a Damage Alteration Power Set Augment. Something like this would be possible to socket into attack sets (note attacks are not just offensive damage) and change half the damage type the set uses to the type of the DAPSA. Power Set Augments affect most if not all of the powers in the power set. A DAPSA as we have been considering change 1/2 of the Power Set's damage type to the damage type of the DAPSA, like having a melee weapon set that did say cutting damage sockets with a psychic damage alteration would do half melee damage half psychic.

Powers themselves only have Augment Sockets gained at i level intervals and are assigned by the player into powers they select. Augments (not Power Set Augments) are placed into the Augment Sockets in powers. Augments improve aspects of what the power does, like increase damage, increase knock back, increase healing and so on. Augments may have anywhere from 0 - 3 Refinement Sockets, the standard being 1. Refinements are placed into these sockets and improve how a power delivers its effect like lowering the cost to use the power, or improving accuracy.

You will not have to use an Augment Socket in your individual powers by having to socket a something like damage alteration into each one to get that effect on a per power basis.


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Tech Team.

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