Villainous Villains and Don't Hate Redside

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desviper
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Villainous Villains and Don't Hate Redside

It's been mentioned in other threads but I feel it deserves its own.

Please don't hate redside?

I know the alignment system will be very different but I assume there will still be a way to discern who is a "villain" and who is not, or which flavour of villain he happens to be.

A big mistake of CoH (specifically CoV) was not adding to Redside content at all. It was in great dearth: blueside had 19 more zones (7 more "city" zones, which excludes hazard and trial spaces), 10 more TFs (excluding co-op ones), and the entire shadow shard.
Furthermore, all the villain zones accept maybe Grandville (which, to give credit, was pretty awesome) felt the same, dingy skid rows where crime is ubiquitous and the sky is grey. To quote another "you just felt like a cog in the machine", and think about it, what do you call a person destroying evil in the bad part of town? A hero. Thumping thugs and monsters and cleaning the streets is the work of a hero, not a villain. More on that below.

I know that there will not be a great divide for blueside and redside, which almost makes this portion irrelevant, but it's been mentioned that there will be areas which only villains will be accepted and only heroes will be accepted. Which makes sense to a degree.
If we have such zones, please make them equally enjoyable for heroes and villains. The Shadow Shard is 100x better than The Abyss, and the Hollows is 10000x better than Monster Island (how many have actually even gone to those zones?). The heroes can have their specific zones, and they should be awesome, but villains should have the similarly awesome zones too.

Please don't hate redside.

Can we have villainous villains?

It can be difficult catering to "villainous" villains since they're motivations may vary far more widely than heroic ones, which may include, for the better of man, to protect the innocent, revenge, or "to fight the bad guys using their rules" (Punisher). Villains can vary from world domination to "watch[ing] the world burn" to ruling a smaller area to, again, revenge, to getting rich to for the "better" of man (Mad scientist anyone), etc.
But either way, please allow villains to have their own motivations, goals, and schemes to some degree, even if only at higher levels.

CoV made a huge mistake here. You had two choices, to work for Arachnos, or to "freelance", and to be frank, they weren't very different, and you could switch back at any time. No matter what you chose, the paths converged at the end to chose a patron (also a huge blunder) and you're ultimate goal is, to defeat Lord Recluse. Now, that is an honourable goal, and a formidable one, he's no pushover, and it's a great show of power. But, what did it change? Arachnos was no weaker, Lord Recluse was still supreme dictator over the Isles, and you still either worked for Arachnos, or did whatever jobs some other contact had.

You weren't a villain, you were a mercenary!

Please don't make the same mistake. Please allow a system were villains can be more than a cog in the machine, a mercenary, or a street cleaning hero.

What I'd suggest:

>Give a few story lines for villains to follow; take "tips" to a new level and allow villains to craft their own missions to a small extent.

>Allow a variety of ultimate goals. Defeating Doctor Tyche should not be the pinnacle of villainy. I'd narrow it down to these three for launch:
--Obtain Anthem's sword: now, idk how the lore works on this and if only certain people can wear the sword and armour, but work with me here. The point is, defeat a signature character (can be hero or villain), and obtain something which alters the feel of the game afterward. Using the example given, you trudge through a story arc that ends in a finale of team vs The Paragons or team (or solo) vs Anthem. After this, you gain a significant power. Maybe it could be a special attack ("Anthem of Victory" or whathaveyou), or an intro to an Incarnate-System-Like power system (which at launch, could just be one, simple, mega-attack).
This fills the goal of a power seeker, or a revenge seeker.
--Creation or Optimization of Lair: If the personal base system is implemented at launch, and if not, whenever it does, your personal base could be upgraded to a personal sector of town or island to rule over. This would be resource-intensive, but could be very awesome. You play the final mission of overtaking a villain's stronghold, or TCPD's precinct, and take it for yourself. This again fills the goals of a power seeker.
Analog to CoH, you could defeat Lord Recluse and take grandville (which would be a separate zone then the original), defeat the council for Striga Isle, defeat the Cage Consortium for Sharkhead, etc.
--Meltdown of the Titan City Reactor: Or other catastrophe, maybe an Agents of Revolution doomsday device could suffice. This fills the goals of a "watch the world burn" type, simply senseless destruction of a huge portion of the city to spread chaos and malice. This could be a huge zone event, or an instanced mission, or an instanced mission that causes a zone event. The trouble here is making the villain feel as though he's completed the end game after it's done. A alternate "Progress Park Ruins" doesn't serve much utility.

>Allow Choices of Faction: if a new villain is required to join a faction as in CoV ("freelancing" was an option, but I always felt like an Arachnos Employee), allow several choices, not just the premier villain faction (if there is one):
--Edentech: This one could be a choice for heroes or villains of science. It's implied that they want a better future, but with any fictional biotech company, there's always the possibility of unethical or downright evil experiments happening. This allows for alignment choices: if a hero is assigned to a task he feels wrong about, he can refuse and gain Honour points (and maybe Lawful points), whereas a villain may revel in it.
--IFRIT: International Fire Response/Ignition Team: A group of mercenaries that, again, a hero or villain could join. Fairly self-explanatory. Could lead to the destruction goal mentioned above.
--Tarot: A villain group of mages that a villainous mage could join. They could be a source of training and other power-ups (whatever they may be). In the end, one could overtake their leader, and take the stronghold for themselves (see "optimization of lair") or take a legendary weapon from him (see "Obtain...").
--The Black Rose: Another mercenary group, but strictly villainous. Chaser may be a way to gain powers (source of good temp powers). Again, could lead to Optimization of Lair goal.

>Allow Villainous Options in Co-Op Zones: The term "Co-Op" zone may be irrelevant given the nature of The City, but if certain [Hazard Zones] require a level and both Heroes and Villains fight to end one enemy, then this is relevant. I found it difficult the feel villainous in the Rikti War Zone and Cimerora, so please allow villainous plots a chance to thrive in such environments.

I know this has gotten long, but please, allow villains to be villains in CoT, not just mercenaries or employees of [Arachnos], but scheming villains with their own motivations and goals, and please, don't hate redside.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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Will that fit under PG13,

Will that fit under ESRB T (13), PEGI 12?

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How wouldn't what interfere

How wouldn't what interfere with that?

If the Reactor Detonation is of issue, you don't need to show the people being decimated by it, just a cloud from a distance or similar explosion could get the idea across.

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Will that fit under ESRB T (13), PEGI 12?

People have gotten away with worse with lower ranking on the ESRB. Just watch adventure time, or most of the Disney movies

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I don't mind really

I don't mind really villainous content so long as there is also Roguish content. While some of my villains were perfectly willing to shoot someone in the back or engage in destruction just for the Evils I also had bad guys who were strictly in it for cash or revenge and there were things they would not do.

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You know, we do mention the

You know, we do mention the orbiting laser platform and taking the world hostage for a reason.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

This fills the goals of a "watch the world burn" type, simply senseless destruction of a huge portion of the city to spread chaos and malice.

As I pointed out in some other thread, this is fun perhaps once or twice. Even if the character succeeds, what have they accomplished? Irradiate the city that is their home?* To me, that crosses the line from nihilistic to suicidal. There's a reason such villains don't get their own comic books: it's not particularly interesting to follow an individual who is interested only in killing and destroying. This kind of thing really only works for a bit part or a 90 minute movie.

Trying to take over the world every week will become as tired and trite just as quickly as saving the world every week.

Pinky: "Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"
The Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky—try to take over the world!"

Well, unless you're a hyper-intelligent lab mouse, I suppose.

All that said, I agree that CoV, on the whole, felt more like "Work for Arachnos! Live in our amazing slums!" than being one's own villain. Basically, unless you were one of Lord Recluse's inner circle, it seemed that the only reason anyone became a villain is because it paid the bills.**



* How many villains would be thrilled to have a reactor melt down in their proverbial back yard? It's not as though the heroes are the only ones who have a vested interested in keeping Titan City in one piece.
** That and being a construction contractor was obviously a dead-end job in the Rogue Isles.***
*** Bazinga!

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I never really got into CoV

I never really got into CoV due to several of the reasons mentioned above, but I am very interested in trying it with the new CoT system. As ive put some thought into what would make being a villian engrossing for me, I think about other games that offer a choice with different rewards based on a simple alignment code. Usually nefarious choices grant better gear and/or more money and the rightous choices grant more xp. While working as a villian trying to build my "Biff's Pleasure Palace" would be fun for a bit, running Hill Valley into the ground I dont think will do it for most people all the time.
I am really excited about the updates the devs have released about our personal storyline options and alignment effecting the characters through the story progression, but I am still a bit curious about the gameplay of the villians. Will the mission orient the world, or will the world orient the mission? So will I get a contact for a mission to take out a rival gang, or join a rival gang? Will I bust in the door on my own and negotiate my own "mission" to join or fight? I am sure there is a balance there somewhere, though I am not sure what the programming requirements would. I know this could be very labor intensive and therefore unrealistic.
What I am looking for in a villian is a two worlds aproach. What I mean is that the city is what it is, filled with mostly good people and not to many areas over run with crime and condemed buildings. The city, to the average person, looks as though there is almost no crime. Everyone knows of a few bad areas, but everyone is supprised to learn about the uptown subdivision drug ring. I am looking for the immersion that comes with knowing which club is a front for organised crime, knowing which factory is running illegal experiments, knowing which abandon sewer the crazed doctor does blackmarket implants.
As a villian I want the option to navigate the world in plain sight, walking into stores to collect my protection money, or visit the local high roller casino to launder my ill gotten gains, pay off the CEO of ResearchTech Inc. to smuggle my shipment of robots in from overseas. So when the hero walks into the insp-a-mart and is thinking, "Wow, these are great deals!", I am walking in and thinking, "Is the sweatshop in the basment meeting their quota?"
And of course, when its time to smash, we go all out. Assasinate a rival outside his condo, sure. Blow up my factory when the cops show up on a raid, of course. Hold the city hostage with my orbital death ray, I was bored, so why not.

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Well unless you are the joker

Well unless you are the joker I think he would just laugh as the earth was burning and being destroyed some villains are just sick demented serial killers who would enjoy a little incineration

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what if the villains could

what if the villains could run an instanced mish that led to a zone event where their goal was to overload the reactor. If they succeed, the local zone becomes irradiated and all the civilian NPCs become irradiated zombies that attack all Players they see. The sky turns dark, it's difficult to visit vendors or contacts and hazardous to enter mission doors. This condition persists until the heroes run a mish that leads to a zone event to cure the radiation. Until the villains want to burn the world again. What if this zone had 3 variations on this type of theme. just imagining out loud

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In general, I agree with the

In general, I agree with the OP. As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, one of the few things I liked about SWTOR was that some of the evil choices felt actually...evil.

Darth Fez wrote:

desviper wrote:
This fills the goals of a "watch the world burn" type, simply senseless destruction of a huge portion of the city to spread chaos and malice.
As I pointed out in some other thread, this is fun perhaps once or twice. Even if the character succeeds, what have they accomplished? Irradiate the city that is their home?* To me, that crosses the line from nihilistic to suicidal. There's a reason such villains don't get their own comic books: it's not particularly interesting to follow an individual who is interested only in killing and destroying. This kind of thing really only works for a bit part or a 90 minute movie.

I expect you are probably right, but I would still like it as an option. Some of my characters in CoV were intelligent, calculating baddies, but some were quite psychotic and destructive. The latter spent more time just blowing everything blowupable in mayhem missions than they did concentrating on the bank.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I like that idea robopez

I like that idea robopez sounds fun

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The only problem I see with

The only problem I see with destroying titan city is that this is an MMO not a single player game. What I mean is that the two ways this could play out mean someone is being penalized for the action of someone else. Let's say we go with making this mission actually affect the world of titan city. Now picture this, A player who just likes doing single player missions and doesn't like being on task forces at all is happily going from one mission to the other having the time of his life when suddenly he sees a giant mushroom cloud in the distance and suddenly the sky turns green and the ground shudders and starts splitting open as every npc in the world turns into mutants including the contacts. That player has now been denied the ability t play the game his way and "one unhappy customer" won't even begin to describe what tat player is feeling right now. Now combine that with the fact that millions of people are going to be playing this game, and 1% of them want to use this one mission to screw wit everyone else again. Now picture that 1% who are the necessary level switching off there leveling hoarding a bunch of replay tokens or whatever and doing that mission over ad over again. You see the problem with this? Now let's sa that this mission doesn't affect the rest of the world and you're an RP villain. You go through the whole thing of setting off this nuclear explosion and everyone makes a big fuss about how the whole city is destroyed and your the most vile creature known to man, and then exit the mission and then.... nothing.... nothing has changed.... It's immersion breaking to say the least.

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Hmm maybe one of the island

Hmm maybe one of the island they can do it ? That way it's away from everything else

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*ponders the issues of

*ponders the issues of blowing up a wind turbine*

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I only casually play TSW and

I only casually play TSW and have never done the PvP there, but they have an interesting gimmick.
The three factions have several PvP zones they fight to control and everyone on the server, whether they participate in PvP or not, gets buffs depending on how many of the objectives their faction controls.
I don't know how much fun the actual PvP content is, but it seems like giving it consequences beyond a badge list might encourage more participation.
Also, having something actually heroic/villainous to work toward besides hunting down anyone who cons red to you might actually get me to try PvP.
At least once.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

The only problem I see with destroying titan city is that this is an MMO not a single player game. What I mean is that the two ways this could play out mean someone is being penalized for the action of someone else. Let's say we go with making this mission actually affect the world of titan city. Now picture this, A player who just likes doing single player missions and doesn't like being on task forces at all is happily going from one mission to the other having the time of his life when suddenly he sees a giant mushroom cloud in the distance and suddenly the sky turns green and the ground shudders and starts splitting open as every npc in the world turns into mutants including the contacts. That player has now been denied the ability t play the game his way and "one unhappy customer" won't even begin to describe what tat player is feeling right now. Now combine that with the fact that millions of people are going to be playing this game, and 1% of them want to use this one mission to screw wit everyone else again. Now picture that 1% who are the necessary level switching off there leveling hoarding a bunch of replay tokens or whatever and doing that mission over ad over again. You see the problem with this? Now let's sa that this mission doesn't affect the rest of the world and you're an RP villain. You go through the whole thing of setting off this nuclear explosion and everyone makes a big fuss about how the whole city is destroyed and your the most vile creature known to man, and then exit the mission and then.... nothing.... nothing has changed.... It's immersion breaking to say the least.

That's the issue with that particular goal, which everyone seems to be stuck on :p I mentioned it to cater to the main motivations that came to mind.
Remember in CoH when the Rikti War Zone got so full you needed a 2 and sometimes a 3. Then later in the game (after IRL stopped me from playing) Galaxy city was destroyed but an echo still existed. Running a "Destroy Titan Reactor" missions that generates a second map of the zone, one where the reactor has been destroyed, while the normal zone is still a choice. Maybe throw in a few perks to the destroyed version, unique baddies with unique badges with costume pieces or good drops attached, unique exploration badges, what have you, and allow the zone only to exist t hours after the mission has been completed (stackable).
I feel that's the best way to balance fairness, immersion, a good Ultimate Goal for a senseless villain, and spot for content to be thrown in/ sucked in to.

But really, what about the rest of the suggestions?

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Like in peregrine island they

Like in peregrine island they had monster island maybe have a combat zone island where once you step foot on the beach you con red and can blue line back in the water but once on the island you can pvp or have whatever pvp content I only pvp here and there but just a suggestion I'm just ripping my hair out until this games release :( time to drown my sorrows in milk and cookies

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

notears wrote:
The only problem I see with destroying titan city is that this is an MMO not a single player game. What I mean is that the two ways this could play out mean someone is being penalized for the action of someone else. Let's say we go with making this mission actually affect the world of titan city. Now picture this, A player who just likes doing single player missions and doesn't like being on task forces at all is happily going from one mission to the other having the time of his life when suddenly he sees a giant mushroom cloud in the distance and suddenly the sky turns green and the ground shudders and starts splitting open as every npc in the world turns into mutants including the contacts. That player has now been denied the ability t play the game his way and "one unhappy customer" won't even begin to describe what tat player is feeling right now. Now combine that with the fact that millions of people are going to be playing this game, and 1% of them want to use this one mission to screw wit everyone else again. Now picture that 1% who are the necessary level switching off there leveling hoarding a bunch of replay tokens or whatever and doing that mission over ad over again. You see the problem with this? Now let's sa that this mission doesn't affect the rest of the world and you're an RP villain. You go through the whole thing of setting off this nuclear explosion and everyone makes a big fuss about how the whole city is destroyed and your the most vile creature known to man, and then exit the mission and then.... nothing.... nothing has changed.... It's immersion breaking to say the least.

That's the issue with that particular goal, which everyone seems to be stuck on :p I mentioned it to cater to the main motivations that came to mind.
Remember in CoH when the Rikti War Zone got so full you needed a 2 and sometimes a 3. Then later in the game (after IRL stopped me from playing) Galaxy city was destroyed but an echo still existed. Running a "Destroy Titan Reactor" missions that generates a second map of the zone, one where the reactor has been destroyed, while the normal zone is still a choice. Maybe throw in a few perks to the destroyed version, unique baddies with unique badges with costume pieces or good drops attached, unique exploration badges, what have you, and allow the zone only to exist t hours after the mission has been completed (stackable).
I feel that's the best way to balance fairness, immersion, a good Ultimate Goal for a senseless villain, and spot for content to be thrown in/ sucked in to.
But really, what about the rest of the suggestions?

Alright this idea fares a lot in my opinion. The guy who just wants to do his story arch can still do so and everyone who wants to do the nuclear apocalyptic aftermath can still do so.

As for your other suggestions, The first one is already in the plan, it's in one of the updates on the kickstarter, I forget which one at the moment and I urge you to look for it yourself.

The second one is also kind of already in the plan. What the devs want to do is allow players to pick a "path" to go down such as a detective path for people who want to do batman style missions, or a guardian path where you do superman like missions that you can freely move between. One of them even has the goal of taking over a mob boss's gig. Forget which update it's on.

The third one I'm not sure whether it is a thing that has been said is going to happen or not on the forums, there might be an update, there might not, but with paths already a thing I think this might as well be a thing, if not at launch then later on, and will be something that I will be looking forward to.

Now if I may make some suggestions of my own.

Lair optimization could be something like warpaths in wildstar where you can build a base with turrets, hire minions and try to take out other bases. There should of course be other options for people who want their characters to have different goals like becoming a general for your faction rather than taking it over and then going out to take over the world for said faction or mind controlling the inhabitants of an island to kill their families, friends and neighbours for the "want to see the world burn types" or starting a gang war for street villains.

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What about changeing the mobs

What about changeing the mobs depending on the missions you complete. So if you destroy the reactor then the mobs in the affected zone change to the irradiated thugs, or if you successfully integrated the corrupted AI into the factory mainframe, the mobs change to hostile robots. This would alow a player that has completed a high level mission to see the effect on a specific zone, but wouldnt interupt any gameplay on other players transiting the zone.

EDIT

Or possibly makeing certain missions only availible in a zone after a major event.

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You know, this is another

You know, this is another area in which hazard zones could play a role.

By day, the hazard zone is your typically hazardous zone. By nuclear meltdown, the hazard zone denizens show that they do, in fact, have the intelligence to get out of Dodge when the fissile material hits the, uh, something-something. In their place there are a bunch of 'OMG Save The Power Plant' missions. Perhaps with bonus mutant and/or giant monster invasion depending on various factors.

P.S. Will Titan City really still be using a nuclear (and fission, and that) reactor?

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

*ponders the issues of blowing up a wind turbine*

Passing wind pun in 3... 2...

Oh. Damn.

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Will the fines I pay as a

Will the fines I pay as a villian be equal with the fines I pay as a hero? How substantial will they be? I understand the risks of lawbreaking, but the reward should outweigh the risk I hope.

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The other complication with

The other complication with villain content is the age barrier. I don't know what age group we're pushing for here, but unless you want a rated M game, you can only get so villainous without parental groups freaking out. With heroes, the sky's the limit. The grander the act of heroism, the better. But with villainy? You can't have a game where you're given a mission to go into Titan City and commit as much whole-sale slaughter as possible (despite that being a common villain goal, particularly with monster villains like Doomsday, or psycho villains like Carnage) and not draw a lot of criticism.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

The only problem I see with destroying titan city is that this is an MMO not a single player game. What I mean is that the two ways this could play out mean someone is being penalized for the action of someone else. Let's say we go with making this mission actually affect the world of titan city. Now picture this, A player who just likes doing single player missions and doesn't like being on task forces at all is happily going from one mission to the other having the time of his life when suddenly he sees a giant mushroom cloud in the distance and suddenly the sky turns green and the ground shudders and starts splitting open as every npc in the world turns into mutants including the contacts. That player has now been denied the ability t play the game his way and "one unhappy customer" won't even begin to describe what tat player is feeling right now. Now combine that with the fact that millions of people are going to be playing this game, and 1% of them want to use this one mission to screw wit everyone else again. Now picture that 1% who are the necessary level switching off there leveling hoarding a bunch of replay tokens or whatever and doing that mission over ad over again. You see the problem with this? Now let's sa that this mission doesn't affect the rest of the world and you're an RP villain. You go through the whole thing of setting off this nuclear explosion and everyone makes a big fuss about how the whole city is destroyed and your the most vile creature known to man, and then exit the mission and then.... nothing.... nothing has changed.... It's immersion breaking to say the least.

I remember in CoH how there was this one contact who you could kill. If you kill him in the mission you're allowed to kill him in, he disappears but the rest of the world still sees and interacts with him.

If we could implement something like that on an epic scale, then Titan City would look perfectly pristine to a world-saving hero and look like an apocalyptic wasteland to an omnicidal villain. The immersion wouldn't be broken up until a hero sees some villain trying to get over an invisible pile of rubble...

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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

I remember in CoH how there was this one contact who you could kill. If you kill him in the mission you're allowed to kill him in, he disappears but the rest of the world still sees and interacts with him.
If we could implement something like that on an epic scale, then Titan City would look perfectly pristine to a world-saving hero and look like an apocalyptic wasteland to an omnicidal villain. The immersion wouldn't be broken up until a hero sees some villain trying to get over an invisible pile of rubble...

That would be INSANELY jarring. Everyone would be seeing something different; it'd be maddening! "Hey, let's go over to that building" "Are you insane? I that's a pile of rubble?" "That's not a pile of rubble; can you not see the aliens hanging out of it?"

Bleck!

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WraithTDK wrote:
WraithTDK wrote:

AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
I remember in CoH how there was this one contact who you could kill. If you kill him in the mission you're allowed to kill him in, he disappears but the rest of the world still sees and interacts with him.
If we could implement something like that on an epic scale, then Titan City would look perfectly pristine to a world-saving hero and look like an apocalyptic wasteland to an omnicidal villain. The immersion wouldn't be broken up until a hero sees some villain trying to get over an invisible pile of rubble...

That would be INSANELY jarring. Everyone would be seeing something different; it'd be maddening! "Hey, let's go over to that building" "Are you insane? I that's a pile of rubble?" "That's not a pile of rubble; can you not see the aliens hanging out of it?"
Bleck!

As I was saying... XD

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WraithTDK wrote:
WraithTDK wrote:

That would be INSANELY jarring. Everyone would be seeing something different; it'd be maddening! "Hey, let's go over to that building" "Are you insane? I that's a pile of rubble?" "That's not a pile of rubble; can you not see the aliens hanging out of it?"

To be fair, we had that with phasing in CoX. Are you saying that was jarring also, or just that this would be too extreme a use of phasing?

Spurn all ye kindle.

WraithTDK
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

WraithTDK wrote:
That would be INSANELY jarring. Everyone would be seeing something different; it'd be maddening! "Hey, let's go over to that building" "Are you insane? I that's a pile of rubble?" "That's not a pile of rubble; can you not see the aliens hanging out of it?"

To be fair, we had that with phasing in CoX. Are you saying that was jarring also, or just that this would be too extreme a use of phasing?

Probably the latter. I can't really say; that was instituted after I left. I played starting in Beta and was forced by real life constraints to leave after the Ouroboros update. Probably wouldn't have if the game had been F2P at the time, but at the time, it had to be done.

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We have plans for allowing

We have plans for allowing villainous players to "plan heists," which will work similarly to mission acquisition. However, the goal is to give it the feel and some overt choice control of a villain being proactive and going to do what HE wants to do.

Some portion of this will, I think (and here's where I'm haring of into speculative territory) involve rethinking the standard MMO paradigm. At its nuts and bolts level, it's still "take quests, get stuff, be able to take bigger quests," but the storytelling aspect of it goes from "discover small problem, learn how it is part of a bigger one, and keep going" to being an "acquisition game." More like Harvest Moon, Civilization, or Minecraft in that the villain is not out there waiting for a bigger villain to cause trouble that he needs to "thwart" or "get in on," but the villain, rather, starts with limited resources and wants to expand those. His quests - missions/heists/etc. - are of his own making based on what he wants to accomplish.

This may require us to develop some "endgame" concepts that are made somewhat visible early on so that villain players can think about what they want to work towards and begin their "master plans" from the get-go.

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Darth Fez
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One option could be to supply

One option could be to supply a variety of targets (bank, research institute, 'secret' base, CEO's mansion) and perhaps three or four different missions arcs toward gaining access to the target. This would make the mission arc the planning stage during which the villain acquires the information and materiel necessary to execute the heist/attack. Rather than doing a bunch of completely random missions prior to obtaining the 'permission to rob bank' card, the villain decides she wants to kidnap that guy and chooses to do so by taking this approach.

ETA: One of the approaches/goals could always be 'I just want to break stuff'.

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Segev wrote:
Segev wrote:

We have plans for allowing villainous players to "plan heists," which will work similarly to mission acquisition. However, the goal is to give it the feel and some overt choice control of a villain being proactive and going to do what HE wants to do.
Some portion of this will, I think (and here's where I'm haring of into speculative territory) involve rethinking the standard MMO paradigm. At its nuts and bolts level, it's still "take quests, get stuff, be able to take bigger quests," but the storytelling aspect of it goes from "discover small problem, learn how it is part of a bigger one, and keep going" to being an "acquisition game." More like Harvest Moon, Civilization, or Minecraft in that the villain is not out there waiting for a bigger villain to cause trouble that he needs to "thwart" or "get in on," but the villain, rather, starts with limited resources and wants to expand those. His quests - missions/heists/etc. - are of his own making based on what he wants to accomplish.
This may require us to develop some "endgame" concepts that are made somewhat visible early on so that villain players can think about what they want to work towards and begin their "master plans" from the get-go.

And in the 4th Major Release of CoT, if you can have player Villains (or Heroes) use the "Mission/SG Base Builder" to create AE like Arcs, but instead of having to Enter an AE like zone... the Arc Builder can choose Existing Contacts in the World (reusing) and write the Lore he/she wants other players to see. :)

Ehhh, Certain Kiosks could list all the Arcs for you to choose from as a starting point, depending on your current Morality (or as i like to call it: Average Public Standing: APS). ;)

Would it be too much if the Arc Builder could change the Arc Contacts Outfit a little? :D

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Rats, Darth -- I was gonna

Rats, Darth -- I was gonna say that.

But yeah, if the heroic side is "discover small problem, learn how it is part of a bigger one, and keep going" then even without changing the mechanics too much you could make our villains feel more in control simply by allowing us choices that change the paradigm to "discover opportunity to create a small problem, decide how you want to make it part of a bigger one, and keep going."

Spurn all ye kindle.

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It's simple. We steal nuclear

It's simple. We steal nuclear warheads and hold the world ransom for..

ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

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Or open a chain of shops

Or open a chain of shops selling overpriced coffee in cups with odd names, the only one of which is in English is "Tall" and that's the shortest one...

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
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^^^ Yeah, true evil! But it

^^^ Yeah, true evil! But it sounds great that villains get to be proactive, but the question is would it make it seem like the heroes and citizens by extension are simply reactive during their schemes or plots?

"Never argue with stupid people; they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

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I may be misunderstanding the

I may be misunderstanding the question, since it is in the nature of heroes (and police, fire department, ambulances, etc.) to be reactive. Hence the whole spiel with responding to an event. This is also one of the reasons it is so much easier to convincingly portray such characters in a computer game. The developers script a certain action to which the player responds.

It is, of course, also much more difficult to maintain the element of suspense and surprise when the player is the one planning the action.

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

I only casually play TSW and have never done the PvP there, but they have an interesting gimmick.
The three factions have several PvP zones they fight to control and everyone on the server, whether they participate in PvP or not, gets buffs depending on how many of the objectives their faction controls.
I don't know how much fun the actual PvP content is, but it seems like giving it consequences beyond a badge list might encourage more participation.
Also, having something actually heroic/villainous to work toward besides hunting down anyone who cons red to you might actually get me to try PvP.
At least once.

Control Points for World PvEvP anyone?

Maybe a Villain (group?) doesn't take over the ENTIRE city ... but they could take it over piece by piece, neighborhood by neighborhood ... until eventually, if No One Stops Them™, they can "rule" all of Titan City ... for a while.

Set it all up for working as a kind of "saddle point" dynamic equilibrium, in which "kings of the hill" tend to get knocked off their perch (no matter which side they're on!) eventually and you'll have a world in which the dynamics and "character" of different places changes ... and in which the Players can influence the outcomes of these battles for control.


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AAlbusUUmbra wrote:
AAlbusUUmbra wrote:

notears wrote:
The only problem I see with destroying titan city is that this is an MMO not a single player game. What I mean is that the two ways this could play out mean someone is being penalized for the action of someone else. Let's say we go with making this mission actually affect the world of titan city. Now picture this, A player who just likes doing single player missions and doesn't like being on task forces at all is happily going from one mission to the other having the time of his life when suddenly he sees a giant mushroom cloud in the distance and suddenly the sky turns green and the ground shudders and starts splitting open as every npc in the world turns into mutants including the contacts. That player has now been denied the ability t play the game his way and "one unhappy customer" won't even begin to describe what tat player is feeling right now. Now combine that with the fact that millions of people are going to be playing this game, and 1% of them want to use this one mission to screw wit everyone else again. Now picture that 1% who are the necessary level switching off there leveling hoarding a bunch of replay tokens or whatever and doing that mission over ad over again. You see the problem with this? Now let's sa that this mission doesn't affect the rest of the world and you're an RP villain. You go through the whole thing of setting off this nuclear explosion and everyone makes a big fuss about how the whole city is destroyed and your the most vile creature known to man, and then exit the mission and then.... nothing.... nothing has changed.... It's immersion breaking to say the least.

I remember in CoH how there was this one contact who you could kill. If you kill him in the mission you're allowed to kill him in, he disappears but the rest of the world still sees and interacts with him.
If we could implement something like that on an epic scale, then Titan City would look perfectly pristine to a world-saving hero and look like an apocalyptic wasteland to an omnicidal villain. The immersion wouldn't be broken up until a hero sees some villain trying to get over an invisible pile of rubble...

We could also make it's affects feel less individually but have it be more commonplace so that it adds up over time. Like for instance if I want to make a lex luthor power hungry business man type, I would start doing missions where I'm black mailing business left and right and even have the opportunity to build up my own corporate empire. At first I'd be seeing a little more homeless people on the street as a result of me shutting down some small businesses, then after a while I start seeing billboards with my companies name on them, and then a while after that people start talking to me like I'm big mister money bags, and I start getting more options in missions like bribing a security guard instead of having to sneak past him or straight up murdering him and temporary powers that let me summon body guards and the like.

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

desviper wrote:
notears wrote:
The only problem I see with destroying titan city is that this is an MMO not a single player game. What I mean is that the two ways this could play out mean someone is being penalized for the action of someone else. Let's say we go with making this mission actually affect the world of titan city. Now picture this, A player who just likes doing single player missions and doesn't like being on task forces at all is happily going from one mission to the other having the time of his life when suddenly he sees a giant mushroom cloud in the distance and suddenly the sky turns green and the ground shudders and starts splitting open as every npc in the world turns into mutants including the contacts. That player has now been denied the ability t play the game his way and "one unhappy customer" won't even begin to describe what tat player is feeling right now. Now combine that with the fact that millions of people are going to be playing this game, and 1% of them want to use this one mission to screw wit everyone else again. Now picture that 1% who are the necessary level switching off there leveling hoarding a bunch of replay tokens or whatever and doing that mission over ad over again. You see the problem with this? Now let's sa that this mission doesn't affect the rest of the world and you're an RP villain. You go through the whole thing of setting off this nuclear explosion and everyone makes a big fuss about how the whole city is destroyed and your the most vile creature known to man, and then exit the mission and then.... nothing.... nothing has changed.... It's immersion breaking to say the least.

That's the issue with that particular goal, which everyone seems to be stuck on :p I mentioned it to cater to the main motivations that came to mind.
Remember in CoH when the Rikti War Zone got so full you needed a 2 and sometimes a 3. Then later in the game (after IRL stopped me from playing) Galaxy city was destroyed but an echo still existed. Running a "Destroy Titan Reactor" missions that generates a second map of the zone, one where the reactor has been destroyed, while the normal zone is still a choice. Maybe throw in a few perks to the destroyed version, unique baddies with unique badges with costume pieces or good drops attached, unique exploration badges, what have you, and allow the zone only to exist t hours after the mission has been completed (stackable).
I feel that's the best way to balance fairness, immersion, a good Ultimate Goal for a senseless villain, and spot for content to be thrown in/ sucked in to.
But really, what about the rest of the suggestions?

Alright this idea fares a lot in my opinion. The guy who just wants to do his story arch can still do so and everyone who wants to do the nuclear apocalyptic aftermath can still do so.
As for your other suggestions, The first one is already in the plan, it's in one of the updates on the kickstarter, I forget which one at the moment and I urge you to look for it yourself.
The second one is also kind of already in the plan. What the devs want to do is allow players to pick a "path" to go down such as a detective path for people who want to do batman style missions, or a guardian path where you do superman like missions that you can freely move between. One of them even has the goal of taking over a mob boss's gig. Forget which update it's on.
The third one I'm not sure whether it is a thing that has been said is going to happen or not on the forums, there might be an update, there might not, but with paths already a thing I think this might as well be a thing, if not at launch then later on, and will be something that I will be looking forward to.
Now if I may make some suggestions of my own.
Lair optimization could be something like warpaths in wildstar where you can build a base with turrets, hire minions and try to take out other bases. There should of course be other options for people who want their characters to have different goals like becoming a general for your faction rather than taking it over and then going out to take over the world for said faction or mind controlling the inhabitants of an island to kill their families, friends and neighbours for the "want to see the world burn types" or starting a gang war for street villains.

if i pick villains and follow a code of honor. prefers not to take the lives of anyone, unless the job demands it, and usually ends up apologizing for his actions afterwards. He is also very loyal to his employer, as long as he is under contract. But while in the presence of individuals who behave dishonorably, cheat, mock, or otherwise do not follow the rules, he displays a ruthless and highly brutal behavioral pattern what alignment system end up be?

whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look into the abyss, the abyss also look into you, -Friedrich

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Alignment systems are always

Alignment systems are always going to be flawed because they attempt to quantify something that is often very fluid into a rigid framework. The thing to remember is that alignment systems tend to be a macro look at everything. It's less about how the character, their friends, or their peers see them so much as how society at large sees them. So, to his employees your villain may be a great boss and the best person ever, but if all the rest of Titan City only sees his "highly brutal behavioral pattern" then they are likely to consider him a violent and dangerous individual.

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mafia wars once had 8 million

mafia wars once had 8 million players. people like being bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Wars

What a man thinks of himself, that is what determines, or rather indicates, his fate. - Henry David Thoreau

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I may be oversimplifying the

I may be oversimplifying the issue here, but it seems like this is more of a "flavor" issue than a mechanical one. I don't disagree with the OP on his analysis of the problems, but I think a proper solution is less with grand, world-changing missions, than giving you the option to behave like the Joker, who remained a interesting character in spite of never quite destroying Gotham or batman.

My idea is that instead of always beating up rival criminals or monsters that pose a threat to heroes and villains alike, give us missions to break into military/police compounds to retrieve some piece of technology. Allow us to kidnap scientists, hold hostages against police raids, assassinate heroes and politicians in front of the Press.

To facilitate agency in this, let the villains among us choose a goal, such as "death ray" or "loads of cash" or "Revenge on so-and-so" which establishes a set of requirements which the villains then conduct missions to achieve, culminating in a final mission of activating/collecting on the desired goal. You can still have contacts, who instead of offering you a mission, you tell them what you need, and they just let you know about a target where you can get that.

Heroes, and more more mercenary villains to still just take jobs from contacts that have some problem to react to, but the truly villainous should be able to feel like they're the ones steering the course and driving the plot. Villains act, Heroes react after all.

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No. Our emissary is not

No. Our emissary is not "reactive", she would most certainly plot to defeat villains on her own terms, like the great trickster and supergenius she is (or else, the Cephalopod Council would not have chosen her). Discard that "Heroes react" nonsense as well.

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It might be interesting to

It might be interesting to have a massive event, always driven by badside, an Arachnos, or Nemesis (!) plot. Good and bad run missions, some individual, some mass, some also PvP, and the tale unfolds towards the end, with whoever doing whatever gaining little advantages for their side for the end battle. Some end battles might be PvP, others PvE.

This would be complicated to design, but would be fun. Some kind of world-change is the result, as well as little doodad trophies for the winning side to put in their base.

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Well, since Dr. Tyche and I

Well, since Dr. Tyche and I have our main characters on the red side, I think it will be okay, and yes we are accepting new henchmen. ^_^

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Eheeeeeeeeeeeem...

Eheeeeeeeeeeeem...

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Alright so I hope nobody

Alright so I hope nobody minds necroposting this thread and hijacking it's subject matter as a soap box for my personal ideas.

So I think I have a way to make to make villain stories as engaging as heroic ones. Politics. No I'm not talking about congress or whatever, I'm talking about game of thrones style back stabbery. If you watch shows like battle force 5 and transformers prime or read comics like that comic series about batman villains backstabbing each other for control of gotham city's underworld that I forget the name of, villains do a lot of game of thrones style politics. So maybe like how hero stories have a lot of their drama based around whether or not they can save a certain person or take down a certain criminal, maybe villain stories drama should be based around whether or not the guy you appointed as you're second in command is going to stab you in the back or how you can try to take out the competition.

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Sounds a little like the new

Sounds a little like the new GOTHAM TV show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d1zpt6k5OI

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Sounds a little like the new GOTHAM TV show.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d1zpt6k5OI

I want to see that so hard right now.....

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I had a minor epiphany while

I had a minor epiphany while engage in a game-related activity. It's really quite obvious, in retrospect, but the thought hadn't properly sunk in before.

For me, it isn't the act that sets apart the hero or villain. It's the motivation for that act. After all, heroes constantly go about beating up bad guys and destroying Council base generators and whatnot. Violence, as such, is not particularly evil. Senseless violence can be fun, once in a while (see mayhem missions), but it makes for a rather dull raison d'etre. However, even a fairly innocuous act can give me that "wow, that was evil" vibe depending on why the character took that action.

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Best example of that sort of

Best example of that sort of thing ... the what's my motivation? point ... for me was always the Villain Morality Mission My Other Selves. Just the PROMISE that your character was going to become THE ONLY LIVING THING IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY and that all you needed to do was bump off Frostfire in time was truly epic in scale and scope ... even though it was just another indoor lab mission in the Rogue Isles.


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It's a really good point,

It's a really good point, Darth. I'd say another excellent example is Ozymandias in Watchmen. I came away from reading that series with a lot of "Yeah, but..." thoughts.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I find one fairly simple but

I find one fairly simple but poignant example to be evident in some stealth games, when the player has the choice between killing enemies or simply incapacitating them. The latter tends to involve more effort and/or risk, so the question becomes do they make that extra effort or kill the enemy simply because it's more convenient? I find it difficult to feel that there's any particular moral impact in FPS games because, even when the opponents are human, the only choice is to mow down the enemy in job lots or Game Over.

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But that's the whole point,

But that's the whole point, Fez! Slaughter them wholesale rather than retail ...


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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

--Creation or Optimization of Lair: If the personal base system is implemented at launch, and if not, whenever it does, your personal base could be upgraded to a personal sector of town or island to rule over. This would be resource-intensive, but could be very awesome. You play the final mission of overtaking a villain's stronghold, or TCPD's precinct, and take it for yourself. This again fills the goals of a power seeker.
Analog to CoH, you could defeat Lord Recluse and take grandville (which would be a separate zone then the original), defeat the council for Striga Isle, defeat the Cage Consortium for Sharkhead, etc.

dawnofcrow wrote:

Lair optimization could be something like warpaths in wildstar where you can build a base with turrets, hire minions and try to take out other bases. There should of course be other options for people who want their characters to have different goals like becoming a general for your faction rather than taking it over and then going out to take over the world for said faction or mind controlling the inhabitants of an island to kill their families, friends and neighbours for the "want to see the world burn types" or starting a gang war for street villains.

I like these options, and would also like to see possibility of bases/lairs located away from the Titan city location, whether underground, on a private island in the Bahamas, in the Alps or the Congo, on the ocean floor, on the Moon, even further away in space or time, or located back in the ancient past or the late Cretaceous era surrounded by dinosaurs, etc.
I was also going to suggest further options, but will post in the Feature Request board instead. http://cityoftitans.com/forum/endgame-content-time-raids

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I find one fairly simple but poignant example to be evident in some stealth games, when the player has the choice between killing enemies or simply incapacitating them. The latter tends to involve more effort and/or risk, so the question becomes do they make that extra effort or kill the enemy simply because it's more convenient? I find it difficult to feel that there's any particular moral impact in FPS games because, even when the opponents are human, the only choice is to mow down the enemy in job lots or Game Over.

Thief on hard mode was like that. Some discussions talked about how easy the game was -- just fight and kill the guy with your sword!

Wth! Get a clue. If you refused to fight, you had completely different strategies. Of course Thief rationalized it that you didn't wanna cause a fuss or undue attention in the bigger picture, rather than for some reason of nobility. You were still stealing, after all.

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The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

Gorgon
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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

I find one fairly simple but poignant example to be evident in some stealth games, when the player has the choice between killing enemies or simply incapacitating them. The latter tends to involve more effort and/or risk, so the question becomes do they make that extra effort or kill the enemy simply because it's more convenient? I find it difficult to feel that there's any particular moral impact in FPS games because, even when the opponents are human, the only choice is to mow down the enemy in job lots or Game Over.

Thief on hard mode was like that. Some discussions talked about how easy the game was -- just fight and kill the guy with your sword!

Wth! Get a clue. If you refused to fight, you had completely different strategies. Of course Thief rationalized it that you didn't wanna cause a fuss or undue attention in the bigger picture, rather than for some reason of nobility. You were still stealing, after all.

__________________

The very existence of the taunting tank irritates, for it requires idiotic AI that obeys the taunt.

Darth Fez
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xkcd still has some of the

xkcd still has some of the best villains.

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