A plea for blasters

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LockOn
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A plea for blasters

So recently as I was working through the forums and old updates on the Kickstarter page I came across this realization.

Blasters are not in the launch plans for City of Titans.

This was confirmed in a post a short while back by Dr Tyche (I cannot find that post now, likely it was removed because it contained the chart which is old information now that the glossary has been released). At the time, disappointment and sadness swept over me, but no more. Today I initiate my plan to return blasters to the forefront of the game's launch and hopefully provide compelling reasoning for including them over the current selection despite their issues. At the very least, this will provide a place for other blasters to vent about the news.

Given the situation the game faces, the reasoning behind this decision is completely understandable. Blasters were always a tough and difficult archetype for the devs in our predecessor game, and I can understand the trepidation at not wanting to tackle them for launch. As a class they were problematic for the 9 years of life that the game had, going through more iterations then any other class in an attempt to repair glaring deficiencies. Note that blasters were the only class data-mined to be performing significantly below the average of every other class. This was the impetus for the first Defiance. Later, they were altered again when data-mining proved that blasters were still under-performing, giving us the second form of defiance that lasted until the game's end. But even that was not enough, as major changes to the way the class functioned and it's secondary power sets worked was slated for the final issue I24. These changes never made it out of Beta. I got to test out many of those changes near the end on the Beta server and even then, i was not convinced that all the alterations the CoH devs had made would go far enough to help the class.

So blasters are problematic, no one doubts that. They were poorly defined for the life of the game. Initially the term glass cannon got thrown around a lot, but if there's one thing that MMO's keep proving again and again, it's that glass cannons are not that fun to play (see Wildstar's Spellslinger for the latest example). A lot of this poor definition came from the nature of the class's secondary power sets. These were so poorly defined in what they did, they complicated the issue in a very extreme way. This is an issue that no doubt must plague the developers here in this game as well. Most of the blaster secondaries were a bad mix of melee attacks, self buffs, and soft controls and debuffs that were ridiculously difficult to balance for and contributed to most of the performance issues the class suffered. Despite all of these issues, and all of the challenge surrounding making a blaster class in this game that will perform as well as the others, it must be taken on. The game cannot launch with Corruptors as the primary ranged damage archetype for the game.

The game intends to launch with classes that will define what powers will mean going forward into the game. In a smart move, the devs have decided to go for the most part with the original 5. Tankers, controllers, defenders, and scrappers (along with a few others) will all be there at the start and will all be available to play. Each of these 4 types strongly identifies with the primary powersets of each class. The problem when you get to ranged is that all of the initial problems that were present with the Corruptor class you get mixed into the initial launch of the game. The accusations that they're just reverse defenders. The accusations that they don't do enough damage to be "real" damage dealers and they don't offer enough support to be "real" support archetypes. Why take a Striker when you can take a Gladiator or Guardian who will do the job better?

And the Striker will HAVE to be a middle of the road class. Otherwise the mix of support and ranged damage will push it into territory that makes it impossible to balance. These are the exact same issues that the Guardian will have as well. Successfully balancing the class will require either a reduction of it's ranged capabilities or a reduction of it's support capabilities at least in part, pushing the two closer together. And do we really want the game to launch with two classes that are mistaken for each other? I think the damage that could cause to the game would be problematic and could easily lead us to the scenario where ranged damage is avoided altogether. Another potential problem is that if they do become the baseline for ranged damage, does melee damage get nerfed in such a way as to bring them to parity? Because people will ask why melee damage is so good and ranged damage is so bad.

Masteries will not be able to mitigate this issue significantly. A strong ranged damage class is required at launch. If the challenge of taking on the offensive mitigation/manipulation secondary is too much, then consideration should be made to allow for the gunner class/spec to go forward. That would at least allow for a strong ranged damage class with less confusion between it and the Guardian. But strong ranged damage is a requirement that I do not think the Striker can provide and you're setting the table without a butter knife if you move forward with it.

Another question this decision begs for an answer is if not at launch, when? The work won't be any less after launch. And given that the chart that floats around has no original archetype under the offensive mitigation column besides blasters, does not bode well. How tempting will it be to put off the class for other lower hanging fruit? Why work on blasters, when they could pump out new archetypes for class/specs that are better defined and easier to make? If not now, when? After Taskmasters are done?

Nevermind the legion of fans who will wonder why they can't make a blaster at launch of the game, of which I number among. Given the legacy that this game is trying to live up to, it's a consideration that needs to be made. At launch, I'll be able to make Superman, The Invisible Woman, Batman, Captain America, Wolverine, Wonder Woman and a host of others. But I won't be able to make Cyclops, or Johnny Storm, or the Punisher, or Iron Man. That is a problem.

As to the work itself, there are things that can be done. From a design standpoint I get the issues with the blaster secondaries and I plan to tackle them VERY soon. But given the issues listed above, there is much cause for alarm at this decision. I hope I've provided some of the reasons for why it should be reconsidered. Thanks for listening.

syntaxerror37
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You know, I never got the

You know, I never got the feeling playing one that blasters were ever poor performers in CoH. I guess I was too busy blasting away my enemies to notice the data said I had problems ;)

As I understand it, the problem with getting the blaster analog up and running is the secondary power set, Manipulation. It is going to be a very difficult set to make useful without over/under powering it. Since it will probably end up being pieced together out of powers taken from other sets it would be a good idea to take those core powers and run them through the ringer of live game play first. As much as I want blasters at launch, this really is the best decision in the long run.

If it is any consolation, with the ability to respect your secondary power you can role a Striker at launch and respect them into a Hunter (or whatever name they settle on) when it becomes available.

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Doctor Tyche
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We want to make Manipulation

We want to make Manipulation really shine. The original sets were thrown together often times with little logic. Our power design allows us to make Manipulation really shine through, and I want to make sure we take the time to focus on it.

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My ice/ice/ice blaster never

My ice/ice/ice blaster never felt underpowered. At time like a mini controller but I loved the play style. I vote a plea for gunner class soon as you can get the def numbers worked out.

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CoX was called "City of

CoX was called "City of Blasters" in the early years for a reason. If the blaster was in fact underpowered (which I don't think it was) then it certainly didn't affect the popularity it enjoyed among players, not that I noticed anyway. I can't say my blaster ever felt underpowered as compared to my Defenders, or my Corrupter. EVERYTHING felt underpowered compared to my Mastermind though.

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kamikaze wrote:
kamikaze wrote:

My ice/ice/ice blaster never felt underpowered. At time like a mini controller but I loved the play style. I vote a plea for gunner class soon as you can get the def numbers worked out.

I'll probably roll a gun/devices/radiation or whatever set and bring back my Laura Croft character called TumeRada. ;)

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When the gunner sets to live

When the gunner sets to live (ranged w/ def secondary) I'll finally be able to roll my Sunspot toon I've wanted since coh, I pulled the iceman off there but with no armor the sunspot was a bit trouble some.

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http://cityoftitans.com/forum

http://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart

This is a link to the Classification and Specification Chart.

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Look Lockon, I like blasters

Look Lockon, I like blasters as much as next guy but you have to understand that the classes that they picked to start off have a reason to be there. First of all it saves resources, and I'm not just talking about money here, we're talking about time. The people who are working on this thing are all volunteers. Every last one them. Don't get me wrong most of them are more than qualified to work on this project, but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't getting paid for it. This isn't technically their job, they still have lives to live, children to feed and jobs to go to meaning that they have less time than other game company, and that is a factor that is equal if not more than money. These classes where picked because they have similar powersets, not despite it. This is a good reason to start with these because instead of working on all of the different powersets before launch they can concentrate all that energy into 4 types of powersets that have lots of examples of being done right. Meaning they have time to put other things in the game, like being able to choose your secondary and inherit in the first place, The path system and many other things that CoX didn't. Do you understand?

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We want to make Manipulation really shine. The original sets were thrown together often times with little logic. Our power design allows us to make Manipulation really shine through, and I want to make sure we take the time to focus on it.

You'll get no disagreement from me on the haphazard nature of the blaster secondaries. I'm studying them now for another discussion I'd like to have on them very soon. But given the iconic nature of the archetype, aren't you worried about launching with a hole?

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There are going to be a lot

There are going to be a lot of things we will not immediately receive upon launch. I wish we could have everything from the get go, but that's just not going to be possible. If we even want this game to be made there will have to be sacrifices made. I'd much rather have them get it right than to just slap something together and hope for the best. You'll just have to be patient much like several other people that wish for certain things with this game. It will come in time.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

There are going to be a lot of things we will not immediately receive upon launch. I wish we could have everything from the get go, but that's just not going to be possible. If we even want this game to be made there will have to be sacrifices made. I'd much rather have them get it right than to just slap something together and hope for the best. You'll just have to be patient much like several other people that wish for certain things with this game. It will come in time.

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LockOn wrote:
LockOn wrote:

Doctor Tyche wrote:
We want to make Manipulation really shine. The original sets were thrown together often times with little logic. Our power design allows us to make Manipulation really shine through, and I want to make sure we take the time to focus on it.

You'll get no disagreement from me on the haphazard nature of the blaster secondaries. I'm studying them now for another discussion I'd like to have on them very soon. But given the iconic nature of the archetype, aren't you worried about launching with a hole?

It's not a big enough hole to tear the game apart as soon as it's launched, and I'm pretty sure it's going to be one of the first secondary powersets to be released since a lot f people want it. These things take time. Be patient.

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But I won't be able to make..

But I won't be able to make..(snip)..Iron Man.

OBJECTION!

Iron Man is clearly a Ranged/Defense and not a Ranged/Manipulation!

Heck, I'd argue Ranged/Defense with Debuff tertiary. Hacking enemy target locks is clearly a -tohit effect.

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Exactly!

Exactly!

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I also don't necessarily

I also don't necessarily agree with the statement that "Blasters are underpowered" If you mean in terms of defense, then well, yeah, they weren't designed as a class initially to take too much of a beating. I agree with that, but with the right load out or powers you could solo. (Best defense being a good offense and all that.) But I ever had a group of 4x or more blasters in CoH nobody ever said "Oh man we are so outclassed were gonna get boned." It was more like we were the evil arch villain rubbing our hands together while plotting the destruction of anything who stood in our way. As for on launch, What we have to appreciate is that, as much as we want it to be, as much as we'd like, CoT is not CoH. Do I want something powerful for ranged combat? Yes. Do I want it available at launch? Yes. Do I want it to look, feel, and play exactly like Blasters did? ...Sort of. I want CoT to do what it sets out to do, which is to evolve the platform that CoH created, to expand the play style, and to uphold and eventually (if not immediately) succeed CoH. And let's face it, at launch, we can expect there to be holes, and problems, glitches that will need to be addressed and fixed. So I'm less then worried about having a powerful assault class at first. But I'll be eagerly waiting for when one is ready to be released.

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Well said!

Well said!

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

There are going to be a lot of things we will not immediately receive upon launch. I wish we could have everything from the get go, but that's just not going to be possible. If we even want this game to be made there will have to be sacrifices made. I'd much rather have them get it right than to just slap something together and hope for the best. You'll just have to be patient much like several other people that wish for certain things with this game. It will come in time.

Agreed. This decision on blasters was tougher for me to take last year when it first hit me, but over time I've begun to understand the reasons why, and to trust that MWM know what they're doing. It's not my preference, but I'm willing to wait for them to do it right.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I feel like as long as there

I feel like as long as there's a class that has "ranged damage" as a primary, you've got your "Blaster" fix taken care of, at least until they figure out the other ranged classes. I doubt ANY of the classes will really be clones of what CoX had in any really close way.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

oOStaticOo wrote:
There are going to be a lot of things we will not immediately receive upon launch. I wish we could have everything from the get go, but that's just not going to be possible. If we even want this game to be made there will have to be sacrifices made. I'd much rather have them get it right than to just slap something together and hope for the best. You'll just have to be patient much like several other people that wish for certain things with this game. It will come in time.

Agreed. This decision on blasters was tougher for me to take last year when it first hit me, but over time I've begun to understand the reasons why, and to trust that MWM know what they're doing. It's not my preference, but I'm willing to wait for them to do it right.

This decision basically means that the only real DPS in the game will be melee DPS. Is that really the kind of game we want to play? Is it not entirely possible that the decision could be harmful to the game's chances of success?

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From what I see, Hunters,

From what I see, Hunters, Strikers, and Gunners will still have the same primary, so I'm pretty sure the one at launch will still have high DPS. It's an exaggeration to say melees will be the only DPS. It doesn't sound like we'll have to wait years to get the Hunter either.

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While we won't have Blasters,

While we won't have Blasters, we will have Corruptors and Defenders. I'm perfectly fine with that for now. It's ranged damage. So those that want to play Ranged can still play ranged. It's better than not having any at all. Would you rather MWM didn't even make CoT? Be happy with the fact that we are even getting CoT. This is all done out of what little free time each person has left in the day to devote to it. Don't be greedy. They have said we will get them, it will just take a little time for them to get it right before we do. Patience young grasshopper.

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LockOn wrote:
LockOn wrote:

This decision basically means that the only real DPS in the game will be melee DPS. Is that really the kind of game we want to play? Is it not entirely possible that the decision could be harmful to the game's chances of success?

Back in CoX, corrupters were more than capable of dealing out DPS, even without using the buffs/debuffs from their secondary. What makes you think strikers won't be able to?

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I believe that strikers won't

I believe that strikers won't be able to deal out the same levels of DPS that a melee DPS class will be able to by virtue of how they will have to be balanced to be functional in the game. To attempt to be more clear, I believe that while Strikers will be capable of dealing DPS, they won't be the "best" DPS'ers by a wide enough margin, that players may avoid them as DPS characters. And if that happens, and I believe there's a strong enough chance for it to, what are the chances that it hurts the game overall when the only "real" DPS is melee dps?

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I say it won't hurt the game

I say it won't hurt the game at all. Because people play what they like to play. It's not always about Min/Max'ers. Also we have no idea how effective the Buffs and Debuffs are going to be, which could make Strikers very effective as DPS'ers. Also with the expectation being that the initial game that is coming out will not be a complete game, people will look forward to having Blasters released to play. I think you are very passionate about Blasters, and I commend that, but I also think you are overreacting just a bit. It's not going to kill the game if we wait and let them build it the right way. Like I said, there are A LOT of things people would love to see at launch but are going to have to patiently wait for the Developers to make and make them right.

I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!

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LockOn wrote:
LockOn wrote:

I believe that strikers won't be able to deal out the same levels of DPS that a melee DPS class will be able to by virtue of how they will have to be balanced to be functional in the game. To attempt to be more clear, I believe that while Strikers will be capable of dealing DPS, they won't be the "best" DPS'ers by a wide enough margin, that players may avoid them as DPS characters. And if that happens, and I believe there's a strong enough chance for it to, what are the chances that it hurts the game overall when the only "real" DPS is melee dps?

Once again, what are you basing this on? Lets look at what melee types we are getting at launch, the Gladiator and the Bulwark. For the bulwark melee is his secondary skill, just like tanks in CoH were. They will most likely out of the box not be the best DPS in the game. So that leaves the gladiator as the melee DPS at launch. Now lets assume there is equality between range and melee damage sets outside of what class they are on. It is reasonable to guess the gladiator could out damage the striker based solely on their primaries, but I would not think it would be by a the larg margin you think it would be. And then, what about their secondaries? The Gladiator has protection, so he's going to be able to take hits, but that's not going to help him increase his damage. The striker will have support, that means buffs/debuffs which can quickly rack up the DPS they actually deal. Just look back at what a vanilla SOed fire/dark corrupter could do in CoH. The fact that their damage was scaled lower than a scrapper or blaster did nothing to slow down their DPS.

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Arguably, the melee DPS

Arguably, the melee DPS SHOULD be better than the ranged DPS. The melee DPS class has to get up close with the badguys and attack them from a position of vulnerability. The Rangerd DPS can attack from a safer distance and mitigate damage by being out of range of the enemy's attacks, to some extent. If you add to that the fect that Ranged tends to be more AoE, or larger AoE anyway, then you probably need to make the Fireball attack less damage than the bread-and-butter melee DPS "good punch" attack. I mean, we don;t want the Blasters to be TOO good do we?

Again, I think the bigger problem is trying to make Masterminds that are playable and fun without being obvious leaps and bouds above everything else and thus totally OP.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Now lets assume there is equality between range and melee damage sets outside of what class they are on.

This is not an assumption you can make given the information we have available. In CoH, damage was a function of your class. All power sets had their own values for damage but the archetype modifiers for those classes set the actual range of damage that a power set could do. I'm working from the assumption that the devs of City of Titans intend to create close analogs to classes as they existed in City of Heroes. To go too far away from that, means making a different game. While we surely want to dump the old bad stuff from City of Heroes that we don't need any more, I'm not willing to assume that there is going to be equity between power sets based on anything else that they've said so far.

Given what we DO know about classes so far does not give us the ability to conclude that Strikers will be particularly effective DPS'ers. Given that the classification/specification chart floating around specifically calls Strikers the Corruptor analog from CoH, I'm going to assume until I hear differently, that they will perform as Corruptors did in City of Heroes. And unfortunately, despite whatever DPS numbers they could produce, they were not considered a high DPS class. Middle of the road for sure but definitely not high. They lagged behind all of the epic archetypes, blasters, scrappers, dominators, stalkers, and brutes.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Scales#Damage_Scale

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

It's not going to kill the game if we wait and let them build it the right way.

It is clear from your posts that you are far more certain that this is the right way to build the game then I am.

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The original CoH launched

The original CoH launched without capes. A SUPERHERO game launched WITHOUT CAPES. Why? Because they were not ready for launch and they wanted to do them right.

The reason we are getting those certain Class and Spec combinations at launch is an important one. I know the devs will work hard to get the last Classification and the rest of the Specifications in the game as soon as possible, but we will just have to wait until they have the resources and time to tackle them.

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I think you misunderstood me.

I think you misunderstood me. when I said "assume there is equality between range and melee damage sets" I meant lets not assume melee is inherently better than range or vice versa. Of course the class is going to effect the final amount of omph a class has in damage, buff, healing, etc.

If you are going to conclude that strikers will preform as they did in CoH, then you will have to assume they will be good at DPS. That chart you linked does not take into account two major things about corrupter DPS: their secondary's effect on combat and the scourge ability. Hell, when CoV launched they were out preforming Blasters in DPS and blasters got a round of buffs because of it. I know we won't have scourge, but we will have our masteries, and I'm sure one of them will also further to increase the overall DPS of the class. I am quite convinced the DPS of a striker will be at a "good" level. and will not force people to play a gladiator if they want DPS.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

I think you misunderstood me. when I said "assume there is equality between range and melee damage sets" I meant lets not assume melee is inherently better than range or vice versa. Of course the class is going to effect the final amount of omph a class has in damage, buff, healing, etc.
If you are going to conclude that strikers will preform as they did in CoH, then you will have to assume they will be good at DPS. That chart you linked does not take into account two major things about corrupter DPS: their secondary's effect on combat and the scourge ability. Hell, when CoV launched they were out preforming Blasters in DPS and blasters got a round of buffs because of it. I know we won't have scourge, but we will have our masteries, and I'm sure one of them will also further to increase the overall DPS of the class. I am quite convinced the DPS of a striker will be at a "good" level. and will not force people to play a gladiator if they want DPS.

That chart doesn't take into account anyone's secondary effects or inherent abilities. It doesn't count scrapper crits, blaster's defiance, dominator's domination, stalker's crits, or brute's fury. I didn't count them because for one thing, it's hard to quantify the values of those various inherent abilites beyond is it good or not. And two, taking into account secondary effects and inherent capabilities doesn't alter how the classes came down in terms of damage. Corruptors were always a support class. They were never considered DPS'ers, no matter how much damage they could dish out.

But let's go the other way for just a second. Let's say that you're right and the devs are right. Striker DPS does end up being set at a "good" level. Nobody is forced to play a gladiator if they want good DPS. Now let me pose the following question to you. Why would you ever be a gladiator at all? Seriously.

All gladiators will be able to do at that point is take care of themselves and have good DPS. But aside from solo'ing, what are gladiators good for? Why would I want gladiators on my pug when I could get a Striker that not only has "good" DPS like a gladiator, but will also be able to heal me?

You can't say more damage. We're assuming that melee damage isn't better than ranged damage anymore. What will gladiators offer on a team that will make them worth as much as a striker when their DPS is comparable?

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LockOn wrote:
LockOn wrote:

syntaxerror37 wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. when I said "assume there is equality between range and melee damage sets" I meant lets not assume melee is inherently better than range or vice versa. Of course the class is going to effect the final amount of omph a class has in damage, buff, healing, etc.
If you are going to conclude that strikers will preform as they did in CoH, then you will have to assume they will be good at DPS. That chart you linked does not take into account two major things about corrupter DPS: their secondary's effect on combat and the scourge ability. Hell, when CoV launched they were out preforming Blasters in DPS and blasters got a round of buffs because of it. I know we won't have scourge, but we will have our masteries, and I'm sure one of them will also further to increase the overall DPS of the class. I am quite convinced the DPS of a striker will be at a "good" level. and will not force people to play a gladiator if they want DPS.

That chart doesn't take into account anyone's secondary effects or inherent abilities. It doesn't count scrapper crits, blaster's defiance, dominator's domination, stalker's crits, or brute's fury. I didn't count them because for one thing, it's hard to quantify the values of those various inherent abilites beyond is it good or not. And two, taking into account secondary effects and inherent capabilities doesn't alter how the classes came down in terms of damage. Corruptors were always a support class. They were never considered DPS'ers, no matter how much damage they could dish out.
But let's go the other way for just a second. Let's say that you're right and the devs are right. Striker DPS does end up being set at a "good" level. Nobody is forced to play a gladiator if they want good DPS. Now let me pose the following question to you. Why would you ever be a gladiator at all? Seriously.
All gladiators will be able to do at that point is take care of themselves and have good DPS. But aside from solo'ing, what are gladiators good for? Why would I want gladiators on my pug when I could get a Striker that not only has "good" DPS like a gladiator, but will also be able to heal me?
You can't say more damage. We're assuming that melee damage isn't better than ranged damage anymore. What will gladiators offer on a team that will make them worth as much as a striker when their DPS is comparable?

Okay, first of all, even if all the gladiators had the same stats the still would be qual. The bodyguard and the Melee/maniplulation still don't have as many self mitigation powers as melee/defense. Sure one can heal his team mates and one has control powers bit doesn't change the fact that when they are hit they are still taking a lot more damage than the melee/defense. It all trades off equally and it all depends on how the player wants to play their toon. They may all be able to deal damage equally but "taking care of himself" is another issue entirely. It's the same thing with the ranger, a striker may be able to heal his allies but a hunter has more offensive powers to use and still has some control power to keep the enemies at bay while he attacks them and while the gunner may not have the ability to heal his team or have as many offensive powers or control power as the hunter he will last longer health wise. That's the trade off, not what they can do with their primary but what they can do with their secondary. My enforcer is still as much of a value to the team as the bodyguard because he can last longer than that bodyguard and I might be the one that takes the attention away from him so he can do his job as a DPS/Support character in case we don't find a guy with a defense primary.

Second of all no one here is assuming that melee damage will be equal to ranged damage other than you. There is no reason why the devs won't give a damage bonus to melee powers like the devs of CoX did to blanance out the fact that ranged can do damage from farther away.

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I'm sorry, but we

I'm sorry, but we unfortunately won't be getting "Blasters" at launch. You'll just have to come to terms with this fact and try to make peace with it. The Devs only have limited amount of resources to contribute towards developing this game. This is one of the sacrifices they had to make in order to make this game. I'm sure it pains them as much as it pains you to have to do this. I do not believe that any amount of begging or debating will alter this. I'm sure that their next priority after getting the game released is to try to focus on making this character available as soon as possible.

Think about this. They are also not releasing very many power options at launch either. More than likely just the basics. How many people do you think would LOVE to have some kind of exotic damage type or animation that CoH did not have available? I can think of a few right off of the bat that have posted in other threads about what they'd love to see implemented at the beginning as well. Again, Time and Resources are going to play a big part of that. I also repeat that I'd like to see them do "Blasters" right instead of throwing something out there to try to appease the masses that is broken. I've never played a "Blaster" all the way to 50. I was looking forward to the "Blaster" issue before they closed CoH down. I thought MAYBE I can finally be interested enough in a "Blaster" to get it to 50. So, for me, I'd rather play a "Blaster" done right to make sure I enjoy it to get it to 50.

Just please be patient with the Developers. I'm sure they are reading these threads and are taking everybody's concerns under consideration. It's just that they have to do what is best for them in the time they are allotted with the money they have available. This doesn't mean we will never see "Blasters", it just means it will be a little bit before we do.

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LockOn wrote:
LockOn wrote:

But let's go the other way for just a second. Let's say that you're right and the devs are right. Striker DPS does end up being set at a "good" level. Nobody is forced to play a gladiator if they want good DPS. Now let me pose the following question to you. Why would you ever be a gladiator at all? Seriously.

Because I want to be a gladiator? because my character concept is a melee character? Because both are viable choices?

Everyone wants blasters in this game all right, we all agree on that. They won't be in at launch for good reasons laid out by the devs. Your entire theory that people will be driven away from the game because the only good DPS will be in melee is flat out ridiculous.

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My blasters got out dpsed

My blasters got out dpsed many times by a corruptor
plus they have higher survivability.

"Gotcha!"

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kamikaze wrote:
kamikaze wrote:

My blasters got out dpsed many times by a corruptor
plus they have higher survivability.

+++++ 111111

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Isn't Iron Man more of a

Isn't Iron Man more of a melee/resistance character? The armor gets hit -- he takes little or no damage...

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

Isn't Iron Man more of a melee/resistance character? The armor gets hit -- he takes little or no damage...

Ehhh... You have to compare his resistance to say taking a hit from Hulk or Thor. So in a way, not much in resistance. :/

Ranged Damage + 5% Resistnace and 10% Defense... Not very good for a Scrapper. :P
Maybe after reaching the Ancillary powersets he could soft cap defense, or come close to it. Hes very close to a Blaster. :)

Now Black Panther has Vibranium... and it rises up to 25 to 30% in Defense. :D
But he's a Melee character.. sooo.. ehhh. :) Hes a Real Scrapper.

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Also, read the update from my

Also, read the update from my signature. There's a lot of information here that most newcomers miss.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

Because I want to be a gladiator? because my character concept is a melee character? Because both are viable choices?
Everyone wants blasters in this game all right, we all agree on that. They won't be in at launch for good reasons laid out by the devs. Your entire theory that people will be driven away from the game because the only good DPS will be in melee is flat out ridiculous.

Now I think you are confusing what I said. As a class choice there are tons of reasons why choosing a gladiator is viable. I would never argue that. My contention is that under the rules you've defined, gladiators would not be a viable choice as a teammate. Why take a mono-tasker when you could instead get a multi-tasker?

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kamikaze wrote:
kamikaze wrote:

My blasters got out dpsed many times by a corruptor
plus they have higher survivability.

This statement is provably false. Unless your blaster was lying on the ground dead (which granted, was entirely possible) or simply not shooting, there's no sane combination of attack chain or power usage where a Corruptor out-dps'es a Blaster.

I could take the time to construct a specific example for you using level 50 example characters with SO enhancements and specifically calculate a simple attack chain for each character for a level 50 mob including scourge and defiance effects to show this.

Or you could go download the last version of Mids from the Titan Network and simply take a look at their power set comparison tool with Blasters and Corruptors as the choices. There is no power set comparison, whether it's Blaster archery and Corruptor fire blast, or any other selection, that will put Corruptor DPS above a Blaster's.

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oOStaticOo wrote:
oOStaticOo wrote:

I do not believe that any amount of begging or debating will alter this.

Given that the very thread we are in right now is a suggestion thread from the devs asking us for suggestions on how the game should be made, I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement and likely always will.

And I believe that the decision to launch the game with a strong melee class, and a strong defense class, and a strong support class, and a strong control class, and a weak ranged class, is a terrible decision that could negatively impact the game at a fundamental level. Regardless of how much time the devs actually have to make the game, an argument I find more and more specious the more I hear it, a bad design decision is a bad design decision. And it's one they should make the time to correct.

Maybe blasters aren't the answer, but neither is their current choice. And until they do something to correct it, I'm going to do my best to try and help them not make a bad decision. Like you, I am invested in this game and hope for it's success.

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LockOn wrote:
LockOn wrote:

And I believe that the decision to launch the game with a strong melee class, and a strong defense class, and a strong support class, and a strong control class, and a weak ranged class, is a terrible decision that could negatively impact the game at a fundamental level

Wait wait wait - how the heck do you know how the classes will play out? Who are you to say what the different class/spec combinations are like when the devs have barely begin development? This isn't CoH dude - dump that old info. Your numbers don't apply here. This is a new game that is still in pre-alpha development.

Quote:

And until they do something to correct it, I'm going to do my best to try and help them not make a bad decision.

I'm pretty sure you're too late dude - the decision has been made (even pre-kickstarter?) and it was made for maximum efficiency and maximum effect. And it was a good decision, despite your personal misgivings and desires. To quote Mr. Spock - it was most logical.

Quote:

Like you, I am invested in this game and hope for it's success.

That's good, but you have to realize that trying to shoehorn the Manipulation sets in at launch could compromise their schedules and the game as a whole. Same goes for the Assault Secondaries and the Pet Primaries. I'm sure Dominator and Mastermind fans would love to see these powers in at launch as well - but that's just not going to happen (to say nothing of the new Class/Spec combos that have no direct CoX-analogue). No amount of pleading or begging is going to change the fact that these sets will take more work to see the light of day, so the most efficient use of time and resources is to work on the sets currently slated for launch. *shrugs* that's the way it is.

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LockOn wrote:
LockOn wrote:

oOStaticOo wrote:
I do not believe that any amount of begging or debating will alter this.

Given that the very thread we are in right now is a suggestion thread from the devs asking us for suggestions on how the game should be made, I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement and likely always will.

Actually, this thread is a request thread from a player (LockOn, aka 'you') hoping to influence the developers on how the game should be made. Making yourself out to be a dev, when you are not, is going to cause you problems.

In case people are unaware, there is a code of conduct.

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I didn't see LockOn trying to

I didn't see LockOn trying to pretend he was a Dev. His understanding of the purpose of the section is slightly skewed, but he never said he was a Dev.

This is a 'Suggestion Box' where Devs might find useful ideas. This thread has been a 'plea for blasters', which assumes that 'blaster' is the only way to make Ranged DPS.

A more effective argument might be made for Partisans, with their Ranged/Defense arrangement. That would be a more unique AT, using existing 'Primary Ranged' and 'Secondary Defense' powersets, that wasn't simply a mirror-image of another AT.

Insisting on 'blasters' means persuading the Devs to bring out another Secondary specification, which means more work for the Devs. Meaning that, as has been suggested here, the 'plea' is likely to be avoided, rather than accepted. The energy in this thread might be better spent in the Ranger Discussion thread, looking at ways to improve what we're being offered already.

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Let me put it this way then.

Let me put it this way then. No matter what, the Developers have the say in what is brought out in this game. All we can do is offer suggestions and ideas. They have already said that "Blasters" will not be released at launch and have given their reasons why. There are a lot of people that have made posts on this forum about what they'd like to see the Developers do to the game. Many times I have seen them come on here and say that they have a clear and present course that they are following in order to get this game out to us in a proposed amount of time. And now you are asking them to change that plan, which would mean an even further release date than what is proposed now.

We on this forum also represent a minority. Yes we can come up with some great ideas and people can debate on the validity of those ideas, but we are not representative of the majority. There may be a few suggestions that pique their interest, that perhaps they hadn't thought of, that they will write down and store for later. Right now their goal is to get this game released according to the plan they outlined in the Kickstarter. And I'm sure they've already experienced some glitches and hiccups in that plan. They have very limited resources to devote to this, so I'm sure they carefully thought out how best to maximize those resources to produce the game in a timely fashion.

I would ask that you instead focus on suggestions in the Ranger forum to help make "Blasters" better once they get around to making them instead. I don't see them changing their plan on how they are going to make this game and what we will see at launch. If that plan is changed, it's not going to be to include more stuff. Rather it will be to let us know that there were unforeseen circumstances that needed to be taken care of and unfortunately something they promised at launch will not be released at launch. You have to trust the Developers. They are working very hard to make this game happen.

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Izzy, i agree that the movie

Izzy, i agree that the movie-character Iron Man is very close to a blaster -- I mis-wrote. Although lots of blasters in COH had powerful melee attacks (I miss my Fire/Fire character named Charcoal Blaster), they tended to "get dead" very quickly in melee. Iron Man is not really in too much trouble, even in extended melee, it seems to me.

However, I still don't quite understand what defense (in COH terms) that the movie-character Iron Man has? It seems like he is being (ineffectively) hosed with machine gun fire in Movie one quite frequently...I if I think on the Avengers film where Loki taps his chest with the "Spear of Destiny" or whatever it was called -- it had no effect. Seems like resistance to me, rather than defense. :)

He's being hit -- it just doesn't hurt him. Except for flying and dodging, does he have defense at all?

Wouldn't that make Iron Man a ranged/resistance character?

And while I agree that being punched by Thor or Hulk is clearly bad for Iron Man, even resistance has limits...

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I disagree with the premise

I disagree with the premise that "Blasters" are some kind of imperative and that the game will suck without them. For one thing, the game they're making is City of Titans, not City of Heroes. A lot, if not everything, will be different. The fact is there definitely won't be any "Blasters" ever, but perhaps in time there might be something that closely resembles them, when the devs can figure out how to make them fun and not broken. I'm all for that. If your idea is to say "Hold it! Stop the presses, we can't not have blasters, we're making a huge mistake here." I just disagree. Who is right? Only time will tell.

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

Izzy, i agree that the movie-character Iron Man is very close to a blaster -- I mis-wrote. Although lots of blasters in COH had powerful melee attacks (I miss my Fire/Fire character named Charcoal Blaster), they tended to "get dead" very quickly in melee. Iron Man is not really in too much trouble, even in extended melee, it seems to me.
However, I still don't quite understand what defense (in COH terms) that the movie-character Iron Man has? It seems like he is being (ineffectively) hosed with machine gun fire in Movie one quite frequently...I if I think on the Avengers film where Loki taps his chest with the "Spear of Destiny" or whatever it was called -- it had no effect. Seems like resistance to me, rather than defense. :)
He's being hit -- it just doesn't hurt him. Except for flying and dodging, does he have defense at all?
Wouldn't that make Iron Man a ranged/resistance character?
And while I agree that being punched by Thor or Hulk is clearly bad for Iron Man, even resistance has limits...

I normally think of Resistance as something you need to Heal Back, if you're loosing health.
The Iron Man suit is like a car, with you as the passenger. So, any time Iron Man isnt in need of Health restoration, its Defense.

Hulk, Wolverine, etc... is pure resistance and Heal Back (regen).
With the Hulk though, the more he flexes his muscles, the tougher his skin.. or rather muscles become. Like when you squeeze a piece of coal and it turns to a Diamond. So the Meaner the Hulk gets... his muscles tighten/compact even more.
Well, i like to think if his abilities in that way... even though you can say in fact the mini nuclear reactor inside of him just went into a higher gear as he gets pissed off more. :)

This is all mute to be sure. The real question should be:
How do you all feel about having Scrappers with Just Ranged attacks? ;)

Me... I'm... err... 80% against it. :/

20% for it... IF... certain conditions are met. (I'm trying to make sure no one with RANGED Attacks has an unfair advantage.)
- Using a ranged power would Lower Defense by 15% for 20 seconds.
- Using LUCK (from COH/CoV) to boost Defense looses effectiveness (drops off) after the 1st 10% Defense bonus
- The Farther you fight from a Targeted Foe, the Lower your Defense should be.
- The Closer you are to the Targeted Foe the Higher your defense should be.
- The Farther you are from your targeted foe, the lower the Ranged Damage output. (scales with distance)
- etc...
(Rage from Super Strength, would lower your Defense by 20%, when it dropped)

Your probably thinking... Rocket Launcher. Its a Ranged Attack... but it packs a Wallop. :/
Yes, but thats an Exception. And for those Exceptions to Exist, there are Very Long Recharge Times.. Cast Times.. and a number of different things to keep its use to a minimum / situational / etc... As long as its not part of the regular Attack Chain. ;)

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

Izzy, i agree that the movie-character Iron Man is very close to a blaster -- I mis-wrote. Although lots of blasters in COH had powerful melee attacks (I miss my Fire/Fire character named Charcoal Blaster), they tended to "get dead" very quickly in melee. Iron Man is not really in too much trouble, even in extended melee, it seems to me.
However, I still don't quite understand what defense (in COH terms) that the movie-character Iron Man has? It seems like he is being (ineffectively) hosed with machine gun fire in Movie one quite frequently...I if I think on the Avengers film where Loki taps his chest with the "Spear of Destiny" or whatever it was called -- it had no effect. Seems like resistance to me, rather than defense. :)
He's being hit -- it just doesn't hurt him. Except for flying and dodging, does he have defense at all?
Wouldn't that make Iron Man a ranged/resistance character?
And while I agree that being punched by Thor or Hulk is clearly bad for Iron Man, even resistance has limits...

Everybody facepalm. Looks like we have to explain English.

Your problem seems to be a conceptual lockdown on terminology that must function the same as it did in CoH. The problem is that CoH had this same setup where a single word (defense) was used with two very specific and different meanings with only one of them being prominent in the mechanics of the game, where it meant 'evasiveness' or 'ability to dodge.'

The problem is that resistance is still defense in the BROADER definition used in CoH archetype construction.
All Scrappers were Melee Attack/Defense
All Brutes were Melee Attack/Defense
All Stalkers were Melee Attack/Defense
All Tankers were Defense/Melee Attack

The same word used with two different meanings is causing your confusion. Fire Armor was still a Defense Set even though the type of defense it offered was resistance and not defense.

When people in the forums are talking about Defense as a Class/Spec aspect, they are talking Defense CATEGORY rather than defense STATISTIC. Note big D versus little d.

Now, on to the truly silly portion of your post. Getting hit and taking no tangible damage versus dodging versus taking damage but not as much.

What is the difference between a person who dodges a bullet and a person who doesn't dodge it because they wear armor that makes the bullet completely ineffective? Neither of them take any damage from the projectile.

There is no difference. This is Super Reflexes versus Stone Armor (with the stone being replaced by Power Armor) in effect. Neither character is actually hit even though one of them was hit but in a way that did no damage. Spider-Man dodges, Iron Man doesn't. Spidey has no armor and the bullet would hurt so he MUST dodge. Iron Man has armor and the bullet will most likely ricochet off harmlessly, so he takes no evasive action because the bullet cannot hurt him. They are mostly the same.

"But Stone Armor was a mix of Defense and Resistance, so that doesn't work!"
ANY armor is effectively a mix of Defense (deflection) and Resistance (padding). Stone armor as a SET had only one power that was both defense and resistance STATISTICS at the same time: Granite Armor. Rock Armor was Smash/Lethal defense (With DefenseDebuffResist) , Brimstone Armor was purely Fire/Cold resist (the only toggle power before granite that was resist), Crystal Armor was Energy/Negative defense (With DDR), and Minerals was Psi Defense and Confusion resist.

The problem is that most old CoH players see defense as ONLY dodging when it could mean so many other things depending on the powerset at hand. Any Dungeons and Dragons player will tell you that this mirrors the way MOST DM's handle Armor Class. Personally I liked to break it down so that I could tel people if an attack missed, was dodged, glanced harmlessly off of their armor, or came so close to hurting them that the impact area goes numb for a second.

Do I expect this kind of detail in a game? Hell no, but I do expect people to have a brain and think before they open their word hole and say rather stupid things like "that looks like resistance so it can't be defense." when resistance is a form of defense against something.

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Izzy, I see your points, and

Izzy, I see your points, and agree, especially about Wolverine and Hulk. Hulk's skin is clearly armored based on the last Avenger's movie. It deflects bullets. as we know, wolverine's skin does not.

However, in COH terms regen is not resistance, and both are different than defense. They are all cool powers, to be sure. :) To illustrate this point, what happens if you toss Wolverine into the center of a large volcano filled with super hot lava? I submit that in all likelihood his flesh burns faster than it can regenerate and an adamantium-clad skeleton sinks to the bottom of the volcano bowl. This is because, in COH terms, he has enormous, unheard of levels of regen, rather modest resistance (he still gets burned, or shot or whatever, like you or I) and no defense.

Iron Man, on the other hand has a chance of surviving an encounter with some lava (resistance) but has no regen if the suit fails.

And I also agree that resistance is something that heals back...but for the movie character Iron Man this is accomplished with the mechanic of changing suits in a jiffy. :)

In fact one could argue (again from the end of the last Avenger's movie) that the movie character Iron Man was a blaster who just figured out how to get pets (the other suits that fight for him), becoming a blaster/MM hybrid.

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Consultant wrote:
Consultant wrote:

In fact one could argue (again from the end of the last Avenger's movie) that the movie character Iron Man was a blaster who just figured out how to get pets (the other suits that fight for him), becoming a blaster/MM hybrid.

hmm.. I see. But when he started out.. he had only a few suits.. not as many as shown by the end of the 3rd one. In CoH terms, isnt that like getting pets from Incarnate powers? :)

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Iron Man is a yet to be named

Iron Man is a yet to be named Class/Spec of Assault (Ranged + Melee DPS) with Protection.
As Voldine pointed out Defence is not always Defence, hence why I used Protection.

Survivability can use the following:
- Resistance (takes hits, ignores most of the damage but still gets hurt)
- Avoidance (dodges attacks, but when one does land it hits hard)
- Ablative (takes hits for no damage but what is protecting you wears away and once that happens you take the damage. Your protection would regen over time after taking no damage - think forcefields "Shields at 90%, no 70% Capt'n. 40%!)
- Regen (Wolverine - 'nuff said)
- Then we have the problem of Iron Man. He gets hit and never takes any real amounts of damage personally. His suit gets hit but he takes no damage so that sounds like Ablative. BUT his armour never really gets hit that much that it wears away. This type of Protection was discussed on the MWM forum and was getting fairly involved by smart people using formula that I just said "OK" to. Iron Man can basically ignore 10 bad guys with normal guns. That's not Resistance. Its not Avoidance. Its not Regen. Its not Ablative.
Even when he gets shot by a Tank in movie 1 (and that Tank gunner surely took a Large Yellow Insp or 4 for that shot!) he didn't get damaged himself, and his suit was barely dinged (it whined a bit when it moved but not much more than that).

In game terms Iron Man should be converted into Ablative or Resistance. All Ablative sets should likely contain a "Self Restore" power to heal the armour/shield/bubble-gum barrier/whatever on a long recharge.

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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

Consultant wrote:
Izzy, i agree that the movie-character Iron Man is very close to a blaster -- I mis-wrote. Although lots of blasters in COH had powerful melee attacks (I miss my Fire/Fire character named Charcoal Blaster), they tended to "get dead" very quickly in melee. Iron Man is not really in too much trouble, even in extended melee, it seems to me.
However, I still don't quite understand what defense (in COH terms) that the movie-character Iron Man has? It seems like he is being (ineffectively) hosed with machine gun fire in Movie one quite frequently...I if I think on the Avengers film where Loki taps his chest with the "Spear of Destiny" or whatever it was called -- it had no effect. Seems like resistance to me, rather than defense. :)
He's being hit -- it just doesn't hurt him. Except for flying and dodging, does he have defense at all?
Wouldn't that make Iron Man a ranged/resistance character?
And while I agree that being punched by Thor or Hulk is clearly bad for Iron Man, even resistance has limits...

I normally think of Resistance as something you need to Heal Back, if you're loosing health.
The Iron Man suit is like a car, with you as the passenger. So, any time Iron Man isnt in need of Health restoration, its Defense.
Hulk, Wolverine, etc... is pure resistance and Heal Back (regen).
With the Hulk though, the more he flexes his muscles, the tougher his skin.. or rather muscles become. Like when you squeeze a piece of coal and it turns to a Diamond. So the Meaner the Hulk gets... his muscles tighten/compact even more.
Well, i like to think if his abilities in that way... even though you can say in fact the mini nuclear reactor inside of him just went into a higher gear as he gets pissed off more. :)
This is all mute to be sure. The real question should be:
How do you all feel about having Scrappers with Just Ranged attacks? ;)
Me... I'm... err... 80% against it. :/
20% for it... IF... certain conditions are met. (I'm trying to make sure no one with RANGED Attacks has an unfair advantage.)
- Using a ranged power would Lower Defense by 15% for 20 seconds.
- Using LUCK (from COH/CoV) to boost Defense looses effectiveness (drops off) after the 1st 10% Defense bonus
- The Farther you fight from a Targeted Foe, the Lower your Defense should be.
- The Closer you are to the Targeted Foe the Higher your defense should be.
- The Farther you are from your targeted foe, the lower the Ranged Damage output. (scales with distance)
- etc...
(Rage from Super Strength, would lower your Defense by 20%, when it dropped)
Your probably thinking... Rocket Launcher. Its a Ranged Attack... but it packs a Wallop. :/
Yes, but thats an Exception. And for those Exceptions to Exist, there are Very Long Recharge Times.. Cast Times.. and a number of different things to keep its use to a minimum / situational / etc... As long as its not part of the regular Attack Chain. ;)

I don't think the gunner is going to be a scrapper with ranged instead of melee. I think it going to be a blaster with protection instead of manipulation. If the ranger has a lot less health than the enforcer than it's still balanced because while the gunner is still resisting damage that still doesn't change the fact that he has a lot less health than the melee/protection and said trade off for said self mitigation is that he doesn't have as many offensive powers as the hunter or as many team support powers as the striker, still making it balanced without having to add anything else. In other words the gunner may be able to last longer than the other ranger specializations but not as long as the melee/defense enforcer. That being said, if it's possible to switch out the striker for the gunner I think we should put it up to a vote.

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As much as I WANT!!!!1!11!!!1

As much as I WANT!!!!1!11!!!1!! the Gunner if we do swap Striker with Gunner that will give us 3 Classes with Protection as a Pri/Sec, versus only 2 with Support and one of those Support classes (Tactician) being (assumedly) un-Soloable.

With 3 Classes with Support as a Pri/Sec we can have:
- Team/Solo Ranged Damage + Support
- Support + Team/Solo Ranged Damage
- Team only Control/Support (bugger all damage)

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How do we arrive at

How do we arrive at 'Tactician' (ie Controller) being un-soloable?

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based on admitted assumption

based on admitted assumption that it will be very similar to a CoH Controller which, most would agree including the CoH devs when the game went F2P, that Controllers were not solo-based and had great difficulty in solo content as you did almost no damage by yourself.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

based on admitted assumption that it will be very similar to a CoH Controller which, most would agree including the CoH devs when the game went F2P, that Controllers were not solo-based and had great difficulty in solo content as you did almost no damage by yourself.

As someone who often played controllers solo, I would have to disagree with that. Before containment that might have been true. Even con missions were quite doable with any controller combination in a reasonable amount of time. Whether that "solos well" or not is up to personal interpretation, but great difficulty in solo content is strait out false.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
based on admitted assumption that it will be very similar to a CoH Controller which, most would agree including the CoH devs when the game went F2P, that Controllers were not solo-based and had great difficulty in solo content as you did almost no damage by yourself.

As someone who often played controllers solo, I would have to disagree with that. Before containment that might have been true. Even con missions were quite doable with any controller combination in a reasonable amount of time. Whether that "solos well" or not is up to personal interpretation, but great difficulty in solo content is strait out false.

what difficulty settings?
a) +0 x1
b) +1 x1
c) +2 x1

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

Iron Man is a yet to be named Class/Spec of Assault (Ranged + Melee DPS) with Protection.
As Voldine pointed out Defence is not always Defence, hence why I used Protection.
Survivability can use the following:
- Resistance (takes hits, ignores most of the damage but still gets hurt)
- Avoidance (dodges attacks, but when one does land it hits hard)
- Ablative (takes hits for no damage but what is protecting you wears away and once that happens you take the damage. Your protection would regen over time after taking no damage - think forcefields "Shields at 90%, no 70% Capt'n. 40%!)
- Regen (Wolverine - 'nuff said)
- Then we have the problem of Iron Man. He gets hit and never takes any real amounts of damage personally. His suit gets hit but he takes no damage so that sounds like Ablative. BUT his armour never really gets hit that much that it wears away. This type of Protection was discussed on the MWM forum and was getting fairly involved by smart people using formula that I just said "OK" to. Iron Man can basically ignore 10 bad guys with normal guns. That's not Resistance. Its not Avoidance. Its not Regen. Its not Ablative.
Even when he gets shot by a Tank in movie 1 (and that Tank gunner surely took a Large Yellow Insp or 4 for that shot!) he didn't get damaged himself, and his suit was barely dinged (it whined a bit when it moved but not much more than that).
In game terms Iron Man should be converted into Ablative or Resistance. All Ablative sets should likely contain a "Self Restore" power to heal the armour/shield/bubble-gum barrier/whatever on a long recharge.

We always listed him as Protection/Assault who did not take everything in his primary and instead took a lot of tertiaries.

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cybermitheral wrote:
cybermitheral wrote:

based on admitted assumption that it will be very similar to a CoH Controller which, most would agree including the CoH devs when the game went F2P, that Controllers were not solo-based and had great difficulty in solo content as you did almost no damage by yourself.

Some controllers were difficult to solo, others were very good, there was a massive difference between a fire/kin and an ice/FF.

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Illusion Control was a harsh

Illusion Control was a harsh ride, until level 18 and Phantom Army... at which point it became 'Muahahaha!'

I'd say overall Controller solo-survival often depended on the Secondary. That said, a Controller still wasn't going to output Scrapper-level DPS, but once they had a solid lock on the enemy, the results were inevitable.

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syntaxerror37 wrote:
syntaxerror37 wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
based on admitted assumption that it will be very similar to a CoH Controller which, most would agree including the CoH devs when the game went F2P, that Controllers were not solo-based and had great difficulty in solo content as you did almost no damage by yourself.

As someone who often played controllers solo, I would have to disagree with that. Before containment that might have been true. Even con missions were quite doable with any controller combination in a reasonable amount of time. Whether that "solos well" or not is up to personal interpretation, but great difficulty in solo content is strait out false.

Our goal is for every Specification to solo a standard encounter. Tertiaries will offer additional ways to branch out your character's build so that even a seemingly low offense primary / secondary pairing will have options to gain offense with Tertiary picks.


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does that mean I can make a

does that mean I can make a blapper with tertiaries? Cause that would be awesome if I could do that with the striker so I could blap right out of the gate!

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notears wrote:
notears wrote:

does that mean I can make a blapper with tertiaries? Cause that would be awesome if I could do that with the striker so I could blap right out of the gate!

I thought Tertiaries weren't slated for release, but left for later. o.O

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What makes you say that? I

What makes you say that? I didn't see anything about it being done after launch, and I don't remember any devs stating it on the boards. I probably missed something, could you quote or something for me? Could the devs confirm or deny this here?

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Doctor Tyche wrote:

Ill happily acknowledge that others found Controllers solo-able. I was never able to get one above 30 and that was a massive grind for me personally. Also I seem to recall that was one of the reasons that AT was locked behind a pay wall when the game went F2P.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

cybermitheral wrote:
Iron Man is a yet to be named Class/Spec of Assault (Ranged + Melee DPS) with Protection.

We always listed him as Protection/Assault who did not take everything in his primary and instead took a lot of tertiaries.

Iron Man is a Bastion (:)).
Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme. Come on gimme gimme gimme gimme.
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Izzy wrote:
Izzy wrote:

notears wrote:
does that mean I can make a blapper with tertiaries? Cause that would be awesome if I could do that with the striker so I could blap right out of the gate!

I thought Tertiaries weren't slated for release, but left for later. o.O

Tertiaries aren't a single set that you can take, they are, in essence our version of Pool Powers. Many of these tertiaries will be based on a Primary Set, some will be unique sets of themselves. Just as with all Primaries, not all Tertiaries will be available at launch, but there will be some.


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It's understandable, I

It's understandable, I personally was wondering how you we're going to make it so that I didn't have to take a tertiary if I wanted to make a character as close to my favorite AT as possible. Making it be an option like the power pools in CoX would solve that and you could still make it so that I can pick one at level one by saying ha I can have only a limited amount of tertiary power sets making waiting to get one later a valid option to play. Maybe by making it so certain tertiary sets are available only after a certain level making waiting for one instead of loading up on them as soon as you start the game an even more valid option. Since the definition of tertiary power set under the glossary is "I'm super strong, super tough and I can shoot lasers out of my eyes" hinting at being able to pick a ranged power set as a tertiary still gives me hope that I can make a striker that can blap ;)

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I Love my blasters they did

I Love my blasters they did exactly what they were supposed to do, blow shit up. They were glass cannons and in no way did they under preform. I will be very disappointed if they are not included in release. I remember nuking masterminds with one inferno aaaahhhh yes good times or destroying enemies with almost no life left with the original defiance before it got nerfed*

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*flexes Corrupter muscles and

*flexes Corrupter muscles and then leaves*

...oh you were expecting input?

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This is a thought provoking

This is a thought provoking thread for me as blasters where by far and way my fave arch-type. It was electrical blast and electrical manipulation that where my main stays - Electrical blast was considered one of the weakest of the power sets, but I loved the play style; maximizing end drain instead of end cost left me with what felt like a much more unique play style. Once you took all the AoE abilities and then thanks to the OI set bonuses for all of the +%damage bonuses it felt monumental.. god knows what it was like on the 'more powerful' blast types :p

I was not aware that they where going to be missing from the launch roster of arch types and I am a little disappointed; but I understand why this needs to be done if there are difficulties, especially if the 'feel' for them can be partially taken from the other ranged types available. It will be worth the wait if it means bringing beloved characters back into action :)

Fusion - (Fusion Reacta, Victory) (@Fusi) - Electrical Blaster