In comics there are a great many heroes or vills whose core concept is based around a single power and the applications of it. I would like to discuss those whose focus is based around what CoX called travel powers.
Flight, teleport, jumping and obviously speed. Each of these 'travel' powers have characters whose powers were based off of them. Flash, Nightcrawler, Angel ect.
These characters may have other skills to fall back on like Nightcrawlers acrobatics, but they had a lot of ways to deal with foes using the travel power.
In CoX the travel powers were largely limited to power pool choices with some thematic powers to go along with it. That works well for characters who have the travel power but rely on other powers for combat. Dr. Strange could teleport but used magic to fight and Magneto could fly but used his powers to fight to name but two. To truly represent a speedster character you had to take powers which were less than ideal for the concept. While Reflexes was good for a speedsters defence, there wasn't a good attack option. Some powersets had teleport like powers in them, lightning rod or wormhole, but the set on a whole didn't really fit.
What I would like to see is a primary and secondary based on the travel powers. An attack and defence set for each to address the travel power focused characters that are a staple in comics. At the very least a set based around super speed as it is by far the most common.
Now keep in mind this isn't a replacement for the power pool travels, its an addition. The set would give you attacks or defences based on the travel power but to use the travel power you still need to take the pool power.
This also isn't a new twitch based combat system. It's simply a set that would use the same core mechanics just have animations and effects that are thematically travel power based.
To give some broad (and prolly poor) examples.
An AoE for teleport or Speed wherein the animation is you flashing around hitting all in range.
A dive bomb for flying characters.
A quick rush to close with enemies that would work for any travel power.
Instead of the simple build up other sets had maybe a very short hasten like power for speed, a turn every attack to aoe for teleport, an add knockdown for jumpers
I just think that the single travel power hero or vill was not represented well in CoX and would like to see it in CoT.
If you're saying "Super Speed should be a powerset" I don't really want to say that it CAN'T be, but then I've felt for a long time that they should have had more Secondary set travel powers in CoX in the first place. Ice sets could have had Ice SLiding, as a superfast mode of travel on the ground, like SS, Fire and Air sets could have had different versions of Fly, etc. Not ALL secondaries really lend themselves to the travel powers per se, and you're still left with the issue of not getting the travel power you really wanted anyway, but I thought it would have been fun.
As for CoX not representing the dedicated Super Speedster, I think it was still doable, but you had to pick primary and secondary sets that made sense with that character build in mind, and even then you had to shy away from powers your Super Speedster wouldn't have. Kinetics was a pretty good Super Speed set, it had ways to speed up and slow down yourself and others, etc. Maybe you don't take Increase Density then, I don't know, depends on your concept. Virtually any melee set could be done, I mean, technically. I guy with super speed can still have claws, or do kung fu, or carry a sword, etc.
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As I understand it travel powers will give you the option to apply effects like fire, ice ect.
I'm not saying you couldn't make a speedster with other powers there just wasn't a set specific to speed. I also think CoT will have a great many powers that will fit a travel oriented character,
Comics have a bunch of staple concepts that I thought CoX was perfect at encompassing. Except for the travel oriented hero or vill.
If I understand it correctly, you're saying you could have a character whose primary power set is teleport, flight, etc or you could have a character who has some other primary and then a limited (power pool) set from those categories as his/her travel power. I like the sound of this; I'm just not sure it would be easy to come up with a complete power set for all these. If we base number of powers on CoX, that's 9 different abilities all related to a travel power. Can you think of 9 powers related to super jump, for instance?
Oh, also, would one or more of these be devoted to the actual travel? In which case this power set would have fewer combat abilities than a non-travel one.
Just thinking out loud here; not against the idea.
Spurn all ye kindle.
-_-
I agree, leap and flight might be tough to come up with a full set for. Teleport would also be hard but not as much. Speed would be fairly easy to come up with a variety of powers. But I mean think about some of the CoX sets. They managed to find 9 powers for a blast set. Why not 9 different leaping attacks.
I don't think its a good idea to give the actual travel power in the set. It would negate the need for a travel power pool.
Plus these travel sets could be adopted into other concepts. Think Toad from X-men. He used a bunch of jumping attacks but it wasn't really the way he got around.
Rather, I would prefer to keep the “Travel” system separated from the Primary/Secondary lines in addition to having more abilities available under each Travel set to make it worth investing further into the line.
What if, in addition to City of Heroes’ Flight, for example, you could also obtain:
- Combat Flight: (Toggle) A flight specialized for use during combat. The speed is between that of “Hover” and “Flight”. The speed also stays consistent in battles (unless the user is under a debuff effect), as in the user does not suffer a Speed-loss penalty for being flagged in combat.
- Glide: (Passive) Holding the space-bar while airborne will put the user into a Glide mode.
- Float: (Passive) User will always remain afloat in the air, slightly off the ground, even with travel powers off (Unless Knocked-Down etc). As in, you will no longer “walk”.
- Dart: (Active) A 5-10 second duration burst of extreme flight speed, will also ignore Crowd-Control effects for the duration.
I couldn’t think of anything beneficial to offer for “Float” – I certainly would purchase that even if it was purely cosmetic!
Nothing wrong with more powers in the pool set. I just don't want it limited there. I just would like a thematic group of powers that were the focus of my character to be travel power influenced. They can be as simple as a new animation slapped on other powers (as CoT is already promising for all of the powers) or entire new powers with the travel power theme.
The only thing I don't really want is to create a character and not have a way to fit a comic book staple. Im not looking for that staple to be unbalanced. Using CoX as a guidline, it very easily encompassed the major character concepts in comics...the strongman, the brawler, the elementalist, mezmer, ect. It just didn't have the speedster for example. Sure you could push your square peg through a round hole to make one but it wasn't ideal.
Now I was very used to trying to make a character concept fit with the powers in CoX, so I understand not every comic book concept will be fully represented simply due to mechanics. Powers that are specific in use like Mystiques shape shifting or powers that would break mechanics like growth in a small hallway are not viable even though both are staples in comics Just as a speedster is.
As I understand it the power selection will be choose what you want to do then choose how it looks. That may be an oversimplification but accurate enough me thinks. What I hope for in this system is a way to represent the speedster, the leaper, flyer and porter fully. If the way to go is power pools ok fine, but then what are my primary and secondary? Do I ignore them when making my character?
Usually characters with heavy emphasis on those special talents use "normal" combat methods such as Martial Arts, Street Fighting, or Boxing in addition to defensive methods along the lines of "Armor" or "Dodging" of which could be easily implemented without specifically targeting a Travel concept.
Not saying it's a horrible idea, I just think the time investment could be better spent elsewhere on a larger variety of powers than making 18+ abilities that follow a Travel-Power's concept for every single Travel Power. I would also assume the more elaborate those lines became, the less elaborate of abilities the Travel-Power line itself can be. Or worse: become semi-redundant.
I'm sorry but to me that line of argument is similar to saying Cyclops knows how to fist fight so his eye beams can be covered with a power pool. Almost any single power character can throw a punch or wear armor why have a fleshed out set of powers for them. If ray guns can have a full fleshed out set so can super speed or flight.
I am not sure I follow you. It almost seems like you are saying you don't like the idea of more powers cause you want more powers. Or is it you don't want these powers you want different ones.
If its you want different ones sure thing. I'm all for options. I just don't see why you can have fire, ice, radiation, mental, thorns, ray guns all for blasts but you can't include speed melee (for example) along with claws and super strength.
Why would they and why would that matter.
Think about this, tough and weave raised resistance and defence but they were not a way to make a bullet proof character for that you went to an armor set. Medicine had a rez and heal powers, it wasn't a replacement for empathy.
Except for the actual travel powers and a few exceptions the power pools were made up of lesser versions found in primary/secondary sets. They were there to fill gaps in your character be that concept, mitigation or attacks. They were not the focus of the character. Which is why I find the idea of a power pool themed character less than appealing.
I read Folly's point to be one of raising the question, "How does someone attack who has super speed as their power?" Are they very quick with throwing punches or striking at enemies with some weapon? In that case, as others have pointed out, this becomes a question of animation rather than one of theme.
If you believe building a super speed theme is as easy as one for martial artists or beam/ray attacks, I'd love to see some examples of what you have in mind.
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I know I already placed this breakdown in another thread, but it seems to bear repeating:
That about sums up the argument for Attack Pools based on 'travel' powers. Defensive sets are even easier. Super Speed, Teleportation, Flight, Jumping, all of these are easily encompassed in a 'Defensive, dodging' set with various animations.
Is that an oversimplification? Yes, yes it is, but it's also the most elegant solution to an issue of what people want out of choices available.
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I'll simply re-raise the concern about this issue I mentioned in the other related thread yesterday: If they came up with (for example) a superspeed oriented powerset it's going to be (by its very nature) locked into being a narrowly defined AT-specific set like a Scrapper powerset or a Tanker powerset.
The point I'm making is that if I use a purpose-built superspeed powerset I'd have to accept that my "superspeeder" would have to be a variation of ONE SPECIFIC type of AT. I would no longer have the freedom to make a "Controller-based superspeeder" or a "Mastermind-based superspeeder" because I'd be locked into whatever type of AT they decided to focus the superspeeder powerset on. If they made the superspeeder powerset be say a Blaster-based set then that ruins my ability to make a Tanker-based superspeeder for instance.
This is why I'll totally agree with the following summarizing statement:
Again I understand why travel-themed primary/secondary sets seem to make sense because of what we've read in comic books. But in the long run I'd rather have "travel powers" and "travel-themed" powers kept separate from primary/secondary sets in this game to maintain the fullest amount of freedom for character concepts.
Elegant? Maybe. Too restrictive? Definitely.
The problem here is that they are NOT going to be able to give us every travel powerset combination imaginable. There wouldn't be an extra travel-based version of every AT - there won't be a "normal" Blaster and a "superspeeder Blaster" and a "flying Blaster" or so on. Whatever powerset they chose to model the superspeeder set on will be locked into being a Scrapper, a Tank or whatever. With that hardwired design you'd no longer have any real freedom to make a superspeeder the way you'd want to - we'd have to accept the version of a superspeeder the Devs decided THEY wanted.
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I REALLY hate giving specifics on a suggestion like this. My idea of speed combat isn't yours or more importantly the devs. All that happens is the specifics get argued instead of the overall discussion. But I will give it a try.
Using City of Heroes as a basis (because that's the best comparison we have right now)
Speed Melee (focuses on fast recharge with some stun)
1-simple fast punch
2-flurry style attack
3-aoe with animation of blurred body next to each foe in range
4-speedboost (instead of build up) instantly recharges all powers
5-Wind push, create a small wind effect by spinning your arms, pushes foes back
6-Beat down style attack that has a high stun animation of matrix style flurry of punches
7-Charge attack (think shield rush)
8-Knockback and follow style hit....animation you hit a guy he goes flying but your character keeps next to him
9-Whirlwind groups all foes in range together hitting each one
That's just a quick and dirty idea of what the powers can be. And you don't have to limit this to just speed melee, speed can be used for control or blasting just by skinning the animations to look like speed powers. Any comic with speedster characters will show other uses for super speed in combat without requiring a new combat system or twitch gaming. Movies like The Matrix or cartoons like Justice League also have a lot of examples.
Super speed is the EASIEST power to come up with sets for, leaping, flying and teleport are a bit tougher but I think they can be done.
In order to evaluate one or more travel-based powersets (and the animations to match), we'd need an actual proposed list of powers in some format similar to what is already developed for other powersets - CoT's format if possible, CoH's if not.
Problem 1: CoT hasn't released any powerset details or power animations that are themetically connected to powers. We haven't even been told how many powers will be in a powerset, much less the balancing methodology. That makes it more difficult to brainstorm a power list and piece together appropriate damage types and secondary effects - not to mention that we sort of need at least a rev 0 combat engine to know what is mechanically easy versus difficult.
Problem 2: There is already an extensive list of systems and powersets with much higher development priority than any new suggestion that comes along. Even if we had a powerset proposal polished & approved by MWM, it will likely be waiting for a while at the back of the line for a while, before it can get animated and tested.
Soooooo... dead end? Maybe not. My suggestion would be to try planning out multiple travel-related powersets within Mid's Hero Designer, using its database editor, across several cells of the CoT class/spec chart, to demonstrate the logic. If someone manages to jump that hurdle, then I think they have a fair shot at convincing other players and the devs that those powersets are feasible and interesting enough to be added to the development roadmap.
Keep in mind that it needs to be compatible with the larger framework of class/spec/tertiary powersets and powers (primary/secondary/pool, in CoH lingo). That means - distinct in what the powers do and how they are animated, without interfering with everyone else's ability to travel in the manner they prefer, and balanced against the combat effectiveness of other powersets within the same category (e.g. offensive ranged or defensive). If the powerset is not very distinct from its neighbors in terms of power mechanics (damage type, secondary effects, cast times, targetting areas, etc.), then it could instead be created as a list of alternate animations for existing powersets plus a few tertiary power options (as CoH had for each travel power pool), which as Voldine notes, may be the best answer anyway.
[Edit - was typing when you posted, islandtrevor, and that is a fine first draft along the lines of what I meant, as the powers seem fairly distinct from other CoH powersets]
So like say ....claws....or martial arts, or super strength, or katana or dual blades or broadsword.
If....IF...that were the case I'm still for it. But it isn't the case, blasting with a speedster could be animated as the speedster runs up to the guys and punches, controlling can be animated with all the various whirlwind powers that speedster characters can create by running or spinning their arms.
I don't think you understand or you missed this very point from my original post. So let me try and explain it again.
The power pool of Super speed stays. Any AT can take super speed as a travel power. I am not talking about removing super speed as a travel power AT ALL. I am saying give a speed power attack and defence, with the animations to flavor it. You want your controller to run fast and summon fire imps ...fine....but the SPEEDSTER turns speed into his weapon. In fact the Speed primary or secondary shouldn't include super speed as a power, to use speed in combat AND run fast you take both the speed primary/secondary and the power pool. This way the speed primary or secondary can be used by someone who isn't a speed runner as well. It opens more options for character and in no way limits others.
But what your saying is you want to limit freedom by not giving this option. And As I have said, they are separate sets. One won't replace the other.
I don't think you have read the thread.
But regardless of that your argument is just flawed. As I said, even if speed melee (for example) was limited to just scrappers or tanks then so be it. There are a great many powers that are 'by their very nature' limited to a certain AT. Guns are not a melee weapon, Claws are not a ranged weapon. Can the animations be tweaked to fit those roles, sure but so can speed.
Just to be sure let me say again.....speed melee (for example) is just the combat uses of speed, not the actual travel. It allows the creation of a speedster ala the Flash, but also allows any AT or powerset combination to take super speed as a travel power.
Thanks. I consider the effort worthwhile since it did make clear to me a stumbling block that is, in retrospect, fairly obvious.
The main problem is that such a power set theme would have to lock in the animations in order for it to make sense, which goes against MWM's intent of allowing players some freedom with matching animations to themes. For that reason alone animations with 'super speed' effects would be the only solution, if feasible. This approach would also have the benefit of opening more themes to the player and may even apply to ranged sets. I wouldn't venture to guess whether, or how, animations could be made to work for flight, teleporting, or leaping.
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I don't see this as a problem at all. As I said to Lothic, there were a great many sets in CoH that limited theme that I would be surprised to not see included in CoT. Claws, Swords, Guns to name a few.
Not to mention there are other ways to depict speed in combat(for example) than just running and punching fast, Look at marvels Whirlwind or looney toons Tasmanian devil. As for flying, teleporting or leaping...winged flight, jetpacks...shadows or magic teleporting and spring shoes or jump jets for leaping.
I do agree that a skinning of animations to another set is the easiest way to accomplish a travel inspired primary or secondary and as I have said I would be fine with that. But a fleshed out set would be better.
Just out of curiosity what was the 'stumbling block' my description solved?
This [url=http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/missingworldsmedia/the-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/posts/645893]Kickstarter update[/url] ought to explain the stumbling block, which is that making animation a part of the power set is not an option.
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I don't see how the kickstarter post creates a stumbling block. Or even how a speed inspired attack set needs to be limited to a single animation.
Lets take a statement made in that kickstarter post and change some words to show my idea.
I say-
Let us make an example. For simplicity’s sake, we’ll stick to the first four tiers. We want to develop a quick recharge melee power set. Let us call it “Speed Melee.” We do not call it “Superspeed” because its effects can be used to represent much more than just running. It could represent skates, ice slides, or a hover disc. A player could even go all out and nuts with their theme, using it in combination with jungle costume, Tasmanian devil punches, and call themselves the “Wildman."
This is the exact reason I didn't want to post an example because the specifics of it get fixated on. If I understand right your objection is that you think all I want is a set based on speed or flight and the only use of that power is with the speed or flight animations. I don't and have said so before. I want that OPTION in the game. As I said in my first post
So how they build the set, what additional animations they come up with, what restrictions or balances it needs are the same as any other set they make.
Now hang on just a minute. Exactly how would this be too restrictive? There are innumerable ways to represent attacking through speed or teleportation for both melee and ranged characters. One can even easily justify a teleportation control set via teleportation of the hero and enemies being used as attack animations or 'effect on enemy' animations.
About the only set that teleportation couldn't be tied to is a buff set.
Super speed could again use any number of a variety of possible 'speedy' animations for effects of ranged attacks, melee attacks, controls, even buffs! I heal you by massaging you VERY FAST in the middle of combat! I Heal you by applying first aid at the speed of light in the middle of combat! I buff our team's recharge by extending my 'speed field' to encompass you all instead of hogging it to myself!
Hell, if we didn't have the issue of animations being (almost) completely decoupled from the powers themselves (and only being tied to animations that work for a theme, IE: no ice crystals on a burning effect theme) I would say recycle the entire mechanics of Time Manipulation, make new names for the powers and new animations and there you go, a Super Speed buff set! Speed Manipulation. A hero controls SPEED by altering the way others around them can move. The character itself doesn't have to move fast or even use super speed as a travel power to have powers themed around movement.
Christ, if CoH were still around I might have made a 'Velocity Gal' or some other cheesy-named buff hero based on the idea of a superspeeder that can effect allies and enemies by extending and tweaking her powers and their effects through fine manipulation.
As long as the devs are willing to make animations for it, we can have our speed or teleport, or flying sets. They will mechanically use other things as a basis, but the animations will be solid. Paired with proper theme choices and variables, it will even feel right for what is desired.
Edit to add: A reminder, the animations CAN be different based on what themes are in play. A Ranged Bleeding set with teleportation animations for the attacks and effects would likely not have the same animations as a Ranged Toxic set would.
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Really I think the majority of those who disagree with this idea are due to my inability to properly explain what I was suggesting.
I should not have used words like 'powerset' or made statements like 'based on travel powers'. It was never my intent to imply that the powers were to be that narrowly focused or replace other the power pools but in retrospect I understand how it could be seen that way.
I hope I have made it clear now.
But to get to the meat of your post.
If the only way to get a the feel of a travel power inspired character is by reskinned animations on another set then I agree with you. The animations can be done and done well I have no doubt. I just think travel power themed characters could have powers geared to them just as a super strong character will.
From what I understand CoT will be very familiar in terms of the roles a character plays. They may not be exactly the same as CoX, but close enough to draw comparisons. Which means that some themes are still limited by which role you choose, be it commander, assault or whatever.
As I said we have such a limited understanding of what the power makeup will be in CoT other than the fact that powers will have multiple looks to choose from. Its very hard to define powers in any meaningful way. Instead I hope the feel of what I am asking for be represented.
Are you talking about having a Flash or Nightcrawler type character? If so, I have a bit of a problem with this. Unless those characters get rooted for a certain amount of time there will be the unfair advantage of being able to kite players in PvP without any penalty. They could simply teleport in with a punch then teleport away in the blink of an eye. Also I feel that there should also be some pretty heavy drawbacks to this type of combat. Accuracy should be less, damage less, because running at that high of a speed doesn't mean you have complete control of your body to be able to hit something or hit something very hard. So it should take more hits to be able to do as much damage as a regular punch. Also how would you be able to gage this? How many punches can be thrown within a 1 second time frame? How fast is this person moving?
I'm not really for this idea. I like having the travel powers separate from the actual damage type powers. I believe this would be easier on the devs to be able to design. I understand the desire for this type of play style I just don't believe it to be good for a MMO, rather more for pen and paper where the DM/GM can handle this without having to abide by game coding rules.
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I understand reading the entire thread isn't something everyone does but please read the original post.
To quickly answer
Yes like the Flash or Nightcrawler.
Its not a new combat system.
It follows the same conventions as any other power.
Its not about gaining advantage, its about representing one of the core character themes in comics.
Here's the thing. All Super Heroes will have faster than normal speed. That is they will be able to travel faster than a normal person without super powers. Now if you want to define Super Speed in terms of Flash like speed then you will find that there aren't really that many Super Heroes like that. Flash, Quicksilver, Impulse, Zoom, and perhaps in some cases Superman. Teleporters would include Nightcrawler, Azazel, and Deadpool. There may be more than that, but not that I'm aware of. So that kind of "Combat" isn't very popular really, so saying it is a "Core" theme I don't see it. Also as has been mentioned those heroes also use some form of physical attack style. A.K.A. Martial Arts, Boxing, Street Fighting, etc.
Again, I just don't see this as a plausible "Combat Power Set". I can see taking Super Speed travel power and rushing in to a mob with it on, then having it suppressed while fighting with say Martial Arts, and then being able to use it to run away if need be. I just think that the way you would like for it to be implemented wouldn't work the way you think it would. Then again, I'm not a Dev or a programmer so I may be wrong on that. I just think there would be more complications to it than you are seeing because it is something you really desire to see implemented and therefore would rather focus on the positives than the negatives.
I got chills! They're multiplyin'. And I'm losin' control. Cuz the power, I'm supplyin'. Why it's ELECTRIFYIN'!!
I certainly do not see something like a super speed-based powerset being 'impossible'.
It is not something I foresee having high enough priority to make launch, but who knows? Not me.
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How many 'Spines' characters do you remember from comics.
When I say a core theme I don't mean the most popular, I mean a core part of comic book mythology. Most original heroes fall into some sort of theme. Strongman, elementalist, brawler, mentalist, speedster ect. More modern heroes tend combine themes. Very few heroes or vills in comics cannot be tied directly to one of the core themes. You can even go back to the true first superheroes and vills of norse, greek or roman myths and find these same themes.
Also, the argument 'just use martial arts or boxing' is really hollow to me. Putting aside my earlier argument that its like saying Cyclops can throw a punch so make him take martial arts as his primary and not energy blast. There is a reason why CoX had various blasts sets, or melee sets. Its because Martial arts combat is different that super strength combat. Energy blast is different than dark blast. I just say that speed combat is unique enough to warrant consideration.
I not sure how to comment on this. Other than my example (to which I had a disclaimer first) I have not said how to implement this. In fact I have been obvious in my desire to not nail it down.
That's all I ask, consider it.
Agreed, and I think a very strong case can be made for teleportation-based range-closing melee combat as well. Whether it is developed as alternate animations or an actual powerset would depend, I think, on whether any other powerset already contains a large number of physical surprise attacks (backstab/chokehold/head trauma) and multidirectional throws (knockdown/up/back/forward/side), while also allowing the player to close distance to their target with several of those powers from at least medium range (10m), and possibly even long range (25m).
There may be significant overlap between the core mechanics of any offensive entirely-ranged teleport powerset and a gravity control powerset, so that may be best developed as alternate animations (the powers can appear to be controlling the target through portals or mid-air distortions rather than the typical gravity lines-of-force seen in CoH).
A defensive teleport powerset also seems to be best developed as alternate animations, but in two distinct themes:
1.) a mostly defense-based super reflexes powerset ("I teleport dodge so your attack misses")
2.) a mixed defense and resistance shield powerset ("I teleport objects in front of me to deflect projectiles, and reduce the harm of heavy physical attacks and energy/elemental-typed attacks"). A variation of this is the ability to customize a shield to look like a void or portal into which the enemies' attacks are absorbed (CoH had several reasonable approximations of this).
Support (either buff or debuff) may be more difficult to map onto teleport powers, so if anything is done here it would likely be alternate animations...for example, appear to teleport around to provide medical attention in combat, or appear to teleport next to enemies to apply some debuff by touch or injection rather than mystical/tech/projectile means, but then reappear at your original location. This was the novel approach used by the Vorpal incarnate power in CoH, as well as Maelstrom's teleport-kicks.
Fortunately for teleport, it doesn't suffer from any immersion-breaking issues that could plague the indoor use of some jumping or flight-related animations or powers. Superspeed does have to consider immersion a little, such as how to display the player speed-running around an enemy who is in a corner (does the image of the player run through the wall? simply appear as motion-blur lines? etc, but then so does teleport - how to show the player teleporting behind an enemy whose back is to a wall, or prevent the power from activating in that scenario.
You know, we may need a jump power that allows us to "goombah" some enemies XD
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