...going to be with CoH/V?
Of course, as with most super hero MMOs there will be powers and abilities only seen in superheroes (flight without wings, superspeed etc), but will there be scrappers/brutes/stalkers? How about hamidon raids?
I personally really enjoyed the Cimerora and TF it had.
Basically, how much of the City of Heroes/Villains IP does TPP have, if any.
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Between this forum and the CoT Kickstarter page there's a fairly huge amount of info out there already on how this game is going to compare to CoH. The phrase "spiritual successor" is probably the simplest to sum it up.
For what it's worth MWM does NOT have any direct ownership or license to the official CoH IP. There were various attempts to make a deal with NCsoft that all basically didn't happen. But from everything I've seen so far MWM is going to do a pretty good job of establishing their own setting and systems that while won't be identical to CoH will probably be as close as you can get without obvious IP infringment.
Short of NCsoft turning the CoH servers back on I think CoT will end up being the closest equivent to CoH we're going to get in the forseeable future.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
CoT will have an AT system. Not a free-form building mechanic. That said the ATs will be more expanded then CoH. They be under different names to avoid IP issues. That said you will be able to make a Tanker but with options to make the Tank Mage concept. You be able to make a Blaster or even a Blapper.
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Personal rules of good roleplay
1.) Nothing goes as planned.
2.) If it goes as planned it's not good RP
Think in terms of what CoH Issue 32 would have been, or the planned Paragon Studios' project of CoH 2.0, which is now obviously scrapped.
CoH did not remain static in gameplay or game-world, it constantly evolved. CoT will be the next evolution, keeping the spiritual successor role of a casual MMORPG set in a supers genre, but with a new game-world to avoid Intellectual Property lawsuits.
We intend to keep what was best of CoH, make better what was good, eject what failed, and incorporate the gains and features of other MMOs that are popular and work with the genre.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
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That right there is why I pledged...why I convinced as many people as I could to pledge and why I'll patiently wait until MWM say its ready!
~ If your going through hell...Keep going!!! #Winston Churchill
Can you explain to me what you meant by "failed". I came to CoT, chose you guys over two other projects, because it was promised to be a spiritual successor, I have yet to see much aside from the city scape and a few enemy groups that keep that promise. All I am looking for is the tone of the game. But I just don't see it.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
This game still has almost two years before it's due to launch - for what it's worth I don't remember seeing too much on what CoH was going to be/look like back in 2002. I think it's reasonable to give the MWM folks at least a few more months before we start truly expecting to see anything "substantive".
And as far as the reference to what "failed" in CoH I think it can generally be said that despite how good we all thought that game was it still had some major stumbles that we can generally hope will be avoided in CoT such as the overall failure of the SG base raiding system. It would be good if the MWM team can learn from those lessons and not repeat a similar unfortunate scenario.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Agreed as far as base raiding. But that one is fairly obvious. My point was: what was seen as a failure by some may be a selling point to others.
As for the tone.... it is not that danged hard. Take a glance at the Matrix, then look at Equilibrium. They look the same and they arn't even following a similar plot. Right down to the emotionless delivery (except for Sean Bean who gets killed right off the bat) and manish female co-stars.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
CoT is going to be CoH... as interpreted by the folks at MWM.
So what does that mean? Clearly it means we can virtually be guaranteed that it will NOT be a 100% clone of CoH (regardless of the IP legalities). Some features may look very similar to CoH, some probably won't. Some of these changes will be seen as "improvements" while others will see them as "silly or annoying". There's really going to be no way to please everyone - there never is.
I think the best way to accept this as a player is to go into it with an open mind and give the MWM folks a chance to create a fun, playable game regardless of how close you, me or anyone else thinks they got to "copying" CoH. Frankly the more fun and enjoyable CoT is as a game in its own right the more I'll probably be willing to accept any changes that deviate from strict conformity to CoH. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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Yup agreed. Just food for thought was all. And I am really more worried about personal goals of MWM than I am about how they percieve CoH. There are only so many ways to percieve one work of art. But there are endless ways that a personal slant or attempt to "freshen" something can cause trouble. Again, just food for thought .
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
I know this is days later, but I thought I'd chime in with my own thoughts....perhaps a little long...
I will agree that there are innumerable ways one can change something based on a purely personal view. But you have to give the developers the benefit of the doubt that they will not put something one way, based only on their point of view. But the game is still in its infancy stage, I'd say. But there's at least, what, a year before it goes live?
And at this point, you cannot expect a whole lot, there is so much to do that it's not as simple as place a building here, put a shrub there and put the baddies here. Lines and lines and lines of code, hours of animation, color schemes to add, costumes and Groups of mobs to design, all of which, has to be done without starting an I.P. war.
Do you happen to remember the Marvel vs. NCsoft issues?
Marvel believed NCSoft used their property (can't remember if it was costumes, weapons or Character Design though), and so...took them to court. I don't think MWM could survive something like that at this point, could be wrong though.
But most everything is still hush-hush. As mentioned above, there was not a whole lot people knew about City of Heroes back in 2002 and 2003, hints, yes of course, but nothing concrete was really known until you got closer and closer to the lucky few who were allowed into alphas and closed betas And even then, MUCH was changed, right? So we kind of have to take what we can get this early in the game. And we know the Developers are listening to what the people are saying, based on the recent post on the front page, in regards to what they've been doing all this time.
Sorry if I that comes off as snippy, I certainly don't intend it to sound that way, but it's just how my words tend to flow without an actual voice behind them.
Now, I'm gonna reply to something a bit earlier..
Well, I can name something that was a big Failure for a very very long time... Cathedral of Pain... Anyone remember when it was live? Then it wasn't? How did they put it... Game-breaking Exploit? I certainly wouldn't call that a success...in any form of the word. Maybe an abysmal failure. But i think that ties into something that was mentioned before too, the Base Raiding thing.
Spiritual Successor doesn't necessarily mean "Clone of" it means just what it says. In spirit, it will be the same while Succeeding beyond the previous. An homage, if you will.
And again, I do apologize if I came off as snippy. And by all means, if I made a mistake, point it out, I'm happy to stand corrected. Sometimes I remember things a little too loose and vaguely. Anyhow, 140 am is too late in the night to truly post something like this.
(consider this signature a part of most of my comments)
I think this is the part most forgotten.
I don't want to see CoH with new names and updated graphics, which is what it seems quite a few people want, I want to see something new and better.
I want to see a new superheroes universe with it's own lore, it's own interesting NPCS that I want to get my character involved with.
I've been tempted to make a post with this idea, but this thread seems to be more appropriate.
I understand CoT, in contrast to CoH, will have the Megaserver idea with one map instead of zones separated by War Walls. I'm not sure I'm in the camp for this, but it has its advantages. I also understand that, as further crystallized above, CoT will not be a clone of CoH with shinier stuff and fewer day one mistakes, but...
Especially for those of us who played CoH for a considerable amount of time, could we have a zone dedicated to an Echo of many elements of CoH, like Arachnos, the Lost, Freakshow, Carnival of Shadows, Nemesis, and maybe the Tsoo and Clockwork, the more unique enemies and maybe architecture of CoH.
Another way of doing this could be through the supposed Mission Creator, implementing some of the CoH enemy groups that would be available to mission craftors.
Thoughts?
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Avatar by MikeNovember
Good way to get a lawsuit from NCSoft, the IP has to be different. I don't know what company policy would be on player made missions as to how close to CoH you could get, but given the number of secret cow levels ripped off from Diablo2 there were in AE, I'm not quite sure how you police it.
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Then I suppose the legal red tape would exceed the gain from having such a zone?
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Avatar by MikeNovember
And likely the money NCSoft would want for it.
I'm not a law or business (major) student, so how does NCsoft get to keep IP for a game they killed?
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Avatar by MikeNovember
Just because a product has been obsoleted or shelved by its owners does not diminish the rights they maintain over it. They reserve their rights until they sell them or officially relinquish them.
Also, as long as any company perceives value in any product, trademarks, patents, or intellectual property, then they are very likely to defend it: even if they are no longer actively utilizing it in the marketplace.
So, we must confine ourselves to creating a "spiritual successor", and create an entirely new universe in which future heroes and villains can explore and grow.
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Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
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Same way Marvel and DC will basically give up on a character, you never see them, then BOOM they're seen again! Still theirs to use and only theirs, was cancelled and then brought out of cancellation.
NCSoft can decide later they want to do a CoH2!
Theoretically, I suppose they could. Thanks for the clearing.
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Avatar by MikeNovember
There is no theoretically about it, they *can* do this. Just because an author (or publisher) stops printing a book/selling a film that doesn't mean that they give up the associated rights to it immediately.
Because this covers more than just IP (ie the setting/characters/lore), they also cover the *copyright* and patents to it as well.
(Interesting side note: Computer games can be protected under 3 different legal settings right now: Copyright and Patent Law and the more general IP....
You might be thinking "patent law"? [url=http://www.gamespot.com/articles/patented-game-mechanics-that-might-surprise-you/1100-6369027/]Well, EA own a Patent on the "Choices menu" that appears in Mass Effect[/url]....)
I interpreted desviper's comment on "Theoretically" as = can/may. It really comes down to the value that is assigned to those "shelved" properties. Overall, it's better to just steer clear.
Tying in with that is the question of "will the owning company want to preserve the value of the property". As I understand it, that was one of the reasons Marvel went after NCSoft in the first place: of course, that property was active. Failing to defend the IP could have eroded Marvel's ability to defend it in the future, and such defenses are the responsibility of the IP owners: not governments.
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Terlin
[color=#ff0000]The Bullpen[/color]
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Wow, I had no idea they would patent something like that; that's really interesting.
I wonder if the patent also covers how misleading the wheel choices must be in relation to what your character will actually say. :-)
Spurn all ye kindle.
Some of the others are real eye openers as well
ugg... patents... it used to mean having a great idea and then monetizing your idea... now it means giant corporations try to ham-fist patents through the patent office saying stupid crap like "we invented circles" and similar nonsense which really is just intended as a lawsuit minefield obstacle to companies who are actually trying to innovate.
Just like Worlds Inc tried to hit NCsoft with a patent back in 2008/9 (it was served about a week before Christmas 2008 IIRC)
[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/worldscom-ceo-were-absolutely-going-to-sue-second-life-and-world-of-warcraft-2009-3]More Information[/url]
Lets put it this way.... the patent *should* have been invalid in the first place (in my mind at least). At least it got settled out of court though, so no precedent could be used if NCsoft lost the case (which would have made the patent stronger to sue with).
I would like to know how close the hero creators will be.
~Es
1. You will have choices for different body parts.
2. You will have choices for different colors. I haven't seen anything yet whether we will get a color slider or a palette of premade colors.
3. There are plans for more inclusive body slider options.
4. There will be more texture options. CoH usually gave a choice between two, in the few occasions a choice was able to be made for a particular costume piece.
According what the devs had post there is a plan for 5 textures on initial release, I am guessing these 5 could be applied to virtually any costume piece similar to CO
5. With any group of artists. There will be individual and unique style to the parts for creating heroes.
6 It will be probably over all easier to describe as a cross between CoH and CO creators with lean towards CoH more realistic style with sufficient options to show that it
a unique product of its own.
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I hope NCsoft does make a CoH2...so we can boycott it and make them waste their money for a change :p
CoX was da BOMB!
Kind of ironic really seeing as there is a group that is in talks right now to buy the IP *from* NCsoft, so that it would be a different group in charge of CoX2.
Little late to the party but there is a way to actually use this idea and not violate any laws.
Use the parody laws.
A zone can incorporate Lord Re-Clues and his spiderbot minions called Areknows. Obviously that's an (bad) example of how to do it but still I think you get my point.
It was how mad magazine, cracked and the lesser crazy all were able to make movie/tv spoofs. Or how movies like scarey movie and such were able to use copyright material such as Ghost face's mask. Heck most guys have at one time or another player the popular movie to porn movie game. Flintstones-Flintbones.
It would be a nice nostalgic area where we can see things in CoH and poke fun at them all at once.
As long as its not a mean spirited ribbing then I think many returning CoH players would enjoy it in the spirit in which it was intended and would not violate copyright.
Honestly I think they are better off using original ideas than parodies.
Most if not all of City of Heroes was a simple (though well executed) homage to comicbooks in general, which is basically the same thing we're going to be getting with Titans. Why bother shoehorning the IP into an attempt at comedy just to reuse the names when you could basically come up with new groups that fit this city and their stories more easily anyway?
Even if they end up somehow able to use the IP from City of Heroes, speaking at least for myself, it's the new ideas I'm looking forward to more in the game, not old IP - or "parodies* of it.
Maybe that's just me though.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
What IF Paragon City and Titan City were in the same universe IP? Does this make CoT better or worse?
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,10284.0.html
Crowd Control Enthusiast
At this point, I can't imagine them being or needing to be in the same universe. Same 'multiverse' might make more sense at this point. Like two worlds from the same IP. (EG, Earth 1 and 2 in DC comics. Or the Ultimate Universe vrs the mainstream world.)
I would argue how it's used that would determine if it's better or worse. If it's handled well, it might add something to City of Titans. If it's handled badly, it probably hurts City of Titans.
Same as with most big ideas. I'd say.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
There is a in game memorial to the victims of Atlas Park.
You will have to decide in your own imagination if it is or not the same universe.
That will be the only link, none of the organizations will acknowledged or implemented by the devs.
But when the mission creator comes out you will be pay homage to the Cox experience in non canon category.
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I would prefer it if the two remained separate entities. Cross-over is one thing and it would be silly to object to that (Marvel and DC have crossed over), but I see no benefit in having CoT share the IP with CoH. As things stand, CoT has to be developed with the assumption that any cross-over or shared universe ideas are not an option.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
^^^ This
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
The idea of a parody was not to turn the entire game into a parody but to include missions...perhaps a zone.....just to acknowledge and pay tribute to CoH with some humor. They could be entirely new stories or a comedic reimagining of old ones. Its not a new concept in terms of comic story telling. Groo the wanderer is obviously a parody of Conan yet it features new stories and neither hurts or hinders the other.
I agree with Doc and Darth on the IP itself, the lore, etc. But if CoT ends up being legally able to use all of CoX's costume assets, buildings, zones, animations, etc, that gives you a MOUNTAIN of great stuff you can just drag and drop into the game without having to reinvent it all. Even just taking existing stuff and modifying heavily is probably way faster and easier than scratch-building a new piece from the ground up in many cases. I think that would be a great boon in the amount of time it would save and the amount of variety we'd all have in costuming, etc.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Add me to the ranks of those who are pleased as punch by the prospect of even zCoH, but would prefer that it and CoT be in different universes. Maybe universes that can reach each other, but different universes nonetheless.
Formerly known as Doctor Slack and [at]Bouncing Betty.
Agreed with preferring separate universes. As I've said elsewhere, I've been looking forward to a new world. For me, it wasn't the lore that made CoX good; it was the gameplay.
As for taking stuff from CoX and dropping it into CoT, wouldn't the completely different code bases and engines make this impossible? I.e. any item to be transferred over would have to be recreated from scratch in UE4 anyway?
Spurn all ye kindle.
+1 and agreed except for the fact that I do think CoH lore was absolutely genius as an homage to various aspects of the classic old-school comic book genre. But what we've seen of CoT lore is very strong, so, agreed over all.
And the good news is that, no matter what anyone thinks, that seems to be the plan anyway.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Alright, fair enough. I could actually see that working for a mission here or there. It's hard to imagine doing it for much past that, honestly. Sure, Groo was a parody comicbook, but I'm not sure many people think about Groo (or Bone, whatever) when they hear comicbook universe. Sorta like how there used to be dozens and dozens of teen romance or western comicbooks. Sure, they existed, but I'd question putting a whole zone dedicated to any of them.
That said, I think the only real question should be is it something a writer in City of Titans can write well? If so, go forward with it. If not, let them write what they're good at.
I am thinking right now the best thing Tyche and the crew can do is develop this world to the point it stands on its own then evaluate their options at that point.
After all, Spider-Man had already been out (I believe) near thirty years when he first met Superman. Would it have had the same impact if it happened in Spider-Man #3? (I know he'd met the Fantastic Four by then, but that isn't quite the same thing.)
J
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
Alright, fair enough. I could actually see that working for a mission here or there. It's hard to imagine doing it for much past that, honestly. Sure, Groo was a parody comicbook, but I'm not sure many people think about Groo (or Bone, whatever) when they hear comicbook universe. Sorta like how there used to be dozens and dozens of teen romance or western comicbooks. Sure, they existed, but I'd question putting a whole zone dedicated to any of them.
That said, I think the only real question should be is it something a writer in City of Titans can write well? If so, go forward with it. If not, let them write what they're good at.
I am thinking right now the best thing Tyche and the crew can do is develop this world to the point it stands on its own then evaluate their options at that point.
After all, Spider-Man had already been out (I believe) near thirty years when he first met Superman. Would it have had the same impact if it happened in Spider-Man # 3? (I know he'd met the Fantastic Four by then, but that isn't quite the same thing.)
J
PS: The forums just translated an issue number as a twitter hashtag. That was infinitely obnoxious.
Longtime City of Heroes player, longtime writer. :) Working in Nebraska.
COT: Mission tips writer, studying Cinema 4D animation program
Not sure about the compatibility issue - but even if they have to re-do it from scratch (which, less face it, would probably be the way to go considering the decade difference in graphical fidelity), with access to the CoH IP the CoT devs can have the SAME costume sets - so your character that rocked the Justice costume set in CoH can sport those (probably updated?) pieces in CoT, in addition to the new ones created for CoT (or maybe even stuff that the APR project could eventually come up with?)
Ah, I see. Yeah...that's precisely what I don't want. I want CoT to feel like CoX in playstyle, but I don't want it to look the same. I'm ready for a new universe.
Spurn all ye kindle.
My main concern was with the lore side - it's great that CoT is going it's own way (if they decide to "pull a Preatoria" and include some alt-dimension Paragon shenanigans that would be cool though).
I really don't care if we see a return of some of the old costume sets; it'll make a lot of people happy, it provides an [I]occasional[/I] visual link to the original game, and it will likely increase the amount of costume options available to us. It doesn't mean the devs will stop creating more costume pieces and just have the legacy stuff.
Basically - more options is good - bring it on! Hell - even if they offered the legacy sets through the store they could be popular items, and make them a bit of cash.
Personally I wouldn't mind, assuming the get the rights to the game, if they were able to set up a legitimate coh, and cov server or two or three. Just to have the old game back. Maybe that's too much to ask for. But imo, the closer they can get the exact feel to the game the better they will do. Some new age innovation but taking it to far might.....lose the feel? I personally would love to see peacebringers in the game.
As I'm sure all of you feel the same way....my hopes are extremely high....too high even. Expecting the same feeling when I made my first hero over a decade ago.
God bless MWM
COH: Kaiser Karate Level 50 Scrapper MA/SR
Nickname "Apaullo"
As long as CoT sticks with CoH like Sound FX, which sounded/felt much more believable... and farther from Saturday morning cartoony Champions Online attack sound FX. :P
That alone would give CoT +2 in my humble opinion. ;D
I completely agree. The emotes also gave it that immersion feeling. It was the little things I think. Furthermore, the music has to be on spot. I just hope the combat is like COH. Quick paced but had the power cooldowns. Loved that about the game.
COH: Kaiser Karate Level 50 Scrapper MA/SR
Nickname "Apaullo"
A lot of people seem to think licensing content from CoH's IP means just the NPCs, lore, and setting. What about other assets like the costumes? Sure they would have to be re-created in UE4 and get a graphical upgrade, of course. But not only could we get our favorite pieces back, MWM wouldn't have to worry about making sure their own costumes were different enough to avoid lawsuits.
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The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
This. I don't even remotely care about inheriting the lore of CoH because I trust the MWM team based on their lore updates! However, obtaining the CoH license would probably save at least a year's worth of work for all of the small infrastructure that is already up to the degree of polish that we all loved while playing the game. CoT developers would save time otherwise spent detailing windows in instance#100 and instead focus on the massive visual/gameplay work that is ahead of them. I know very little of game design, but licensing CoH tech might even provide a ton of the networking/online security infrastructure that is probably worth the cost to begin with.
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Reading the above, I just made a wet spot.
Capt Odee, saving the city one click at a time.
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Sound effects will be CoH-like in that regard at least. I, personally, am more inspired by the current waves of superb super hero movies than saturday morning cartoons. Our goal is to make things as immersive as possible. We will use sound to further your sense of being a powerful being in an exciting environment.
That is not to say there won't be nice peaceful quiet things as well, however. ;)
[color=#ff0000]Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer[/color]
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Intellectual property is for the life + 50 years I believe. I know it is that way for musicians and their music. I would assume games are the same. I realize I necroed this but I wanted to put my 2 cents in. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.
Plus 85 I believe, and I've learned this in 9 months ;)
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Avatar by MikeNovember
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States#Duration_of_copyright
"If the work was a work for hire, e.g., those created by a corporation, then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter." So the copyright for the game itself wouldn't expire until 2100, 2107 for the game as it was at shutdown.
I don't think we want to wait that long.
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