Say so, on the survey! :P

Automatisch wrote:

as a Flagship she needs to represent humanity

I do not agree.

I can agree that "A flagship shouldn't over-represent any one type of lore" but that just never happens. Superman will always be an alien story. Captain America will always be the soldier.

As with all art, there are many ways to solicit the desired response from the observer.

GhostHack wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:
For my tastes, the whole armor/epaulets/weapon look very strongly implies the military. The imperialistic militaries of the pre-World War I era, in particular, with all the associated implications of subjugation and inequality. It gives me more of a 'master and commander' vibe than 'hero of the people'. Overall I have to agree with GhostHack that a simpler, more traditional 'tights & cape' approach for her costume would be better.

Sometimes however, there's such a thing as thinking to hard about it. :p

On this point, X... we definitely disagree. the GREAT characters, while not mulled over by a committee, were definitely "thought hard" about. If you look back at interviews with their creators, every choice was deliberate and nearly everything we see in those characters (even today) was INTENDED by their creators.

I meant in you, who's not the creator, overthinking what the statement of the armor is. To me, I see it, and thought, "Someone thought this was a good costume?"

mikenovember wrote:

GhostHack wrote:
Superman isn't an alien story... it's an immigrant story.... and a rural 'heartland' kid in the 'big city' story.... it is quintessentually 'american' (universal human connectivity)
captain america is a story about underdog spirit and giving agency to the helpless (again, american ideals and universally human)
'soldiering' for Cap was just the river he was floating down... it was chronology, not identity.
NOW....now that the world isn't embroiled in a world war... he is viewed as a 'soldier', first... but that isn't who he was designed as.

And therein lies the issue with defining a flagship. :)
Each of us sees something in them that defines them for each of us, like art. Two people can look at a painting and walk away with two different views of it, but the image is the image, the icon, the flagship needs to speak and say many things to many people for it to be successful. If they're successful, they'll say different things to different people and yet, remain iconic in their own way.
Superman, to me, has never been really about being an immigrant or an alien. Sure, I know he's both. But that's story. If you don't have any story, no background information - there's nothing about his imagery that says he's either of those. He's just a big guy with a cape and flies - but he's not ethnic in any way, there's nothing in his costume that speaks of alien (until recently).
When I look at an icon - that's what I try to keep in mind. It needs to speak not one but to everyone. If you design UI, that's also a common design point, if it's well done - it shouldn't require much if any explanation, and should avoid text where ever possible. It needs to be a natural progression.
Speak to everyone, and say very little when you do to communicate the largest audience. :D

Superman was never a story about an immigrant. I wouldn't even say it's a story of an alien, even though he is one.

He came to Earth as a baby. He was raised on Earth by two loving adopted parents. His is supposed to be a story of doing the right thing, because it's the right thing to do.

This garbage of "Oh, I'm an alien!" and "Oh no my parents died!" is just that, garbage :p

And with such a bold statement as a flag-themed cape.... The overt patriotic theming of her base costume could be toned down... Which would make me happy.

She can be 'Wizardry Wench'... and that Look is what happened, the first time someone called her a Wench. *grin*

Maybe she's 'Sorcery Chick' instead?

Be Well!
Fireheart

Nice costume design, Nova! b(^_^)d

funny, Tigs.. I would have said the exact opposite.

To me, one of the predominant elements of a "Flagship", symbol-wise... is that they are first, and foremost, Protectors.

Superman is "The man of Steel"... not "the man with laserbeam eyes"
he is defined by his ability to shelter the weak behind his physical body.

Captain America has his shield for the exact same reason.

even more esoteric "flagships".... like V, from V for Vendetta are symbolically defined by their ability to Protect (the Guy Fawkes mask is a symbol of protecting the wearer's anonymity, keeping the individual safe from the tyrannical State.)

Violence and Symbols of Authority are actually really rare in Flagship motifs, in comics anyway (they have a long tradition in literary contexts in general, of course)
IMO, they defy the very nature of what a super hero IS, symbolically, but that's a different discussion...

and I'm really really really not sure how "donning American Star's Armor and sword" in ANYWAY breaks the stereotype of having a woman asuming a man's symbolic position? It's Joan of Arc.... hell it's Mulan. it's TROPIC, it's the antithesis of "breaking stereotype"
what WOULD be breaking stereotype, is if she re-hemmed and donned the remnant of his cloak... INSTEAD of picking up his sword and armor. "I'm not going to pretend to be American Star... I'm not going to put on his armor and wield his sword. That isn't ME."

yes, symbols ARE important.... but the Sword is a symbol of aggression... of warfare. it's symbolism stems from the Smiting Pose of the ancient scepter and has carried on since.
It is a means of attack, ultimately a symbol of domination and conquest..

you CAN use a sword to protect people.... just as Cap A CAN use his shield to attack people....
but the symbolism of the object runs deeper than its possible uses.

(I think we can all agree that comics of the pulp age were all a bit more violent, and less restrained)

and Joan and Mulan are remarkable because they defied cultural norms.... I don't think that really stands as true in contemporary American society. While there might be sexist undercurrents in our society, the "idea" of a woman wielding a weapon of war is hardly going against type, anymore.
That said, I wouldn't want to see Anthem being Ant-man, either... a pacifist looking to rehabilitate everyone.... I think that falls too far to the other side.
Basically, I think the only way to "break stereotype" with Anthem, would be to avoid either extreme. In a sense, she's got to play the middle of the field, aggressive as needed, kind as needed.. without being EITHER a "warrior/soldier" or a traditional "nurturer"

in one of these threads, the idea of a "Spiderman-like" figure came up... and I'm rather fond of that analogy. (and not just cause he's my favorite hero ;P)
I think that... "personality archetype" is the most ideologically true of the world, and has the best opportunity to avoid the sense that Anthem is "A hero for women" or any other denomination of human.... or that she's a caricature of an "amazon" or a "damsel"....
...it gives her the best chance of feeling "universal" and honest.

Fair point, about the mantle.

That said, I wouldn't say Cap A is "passive" because he's got a shield, instead of a sword.... so i don't think that visual touchstone really relates to how a character acts (for that matter, the supposed Pacifist Ant-man was constantly getting dragged into things, despite his reticence.) Perhaps you're mistaking "Active/passive" for "Active/Reactive"?
if so, I don't think a hero is "always better" to be active, then reactive... though it is nice when it occurs in a postive way.

If I had my druthers... Anthem would take nothing but position in the public eye from American Star.... I don't like the armor (for many reasons) and it doesn't really make sense that plate armor made for a solidly built man would fit a youthful woman just fine....it's not exactly a kevlar vest (and even those required a scaling redesign for female soldiers)
and I don't like the sword (mostly for the reasons mentioned here)...
...and I really don't like how much it seems the whole idea has been co-opted from COX.

the mantle was a means of carrying over the idea... while minimizing or outright scrapping the parts I personally take issue with.

My preference would be a character who's powers are similar in scope to Green Lanterns (through a different medium, obviously) and so can Manifest things she needs. American Star may have dressed up as a Knight by manifesting Armor and a Sword... but Anthem would use that gift in a moderately different way.
that way, she could look dramatically different depending on where you encounter her... she could look like a European Knight or a Pulp Space Fantasy hero, or a steam punk hero... depending on the requirements of the task at hand and her own personal flair.

then, keep her basic uniform fairly simple, clean and classic (solidly in the silver or early bronze age) with these embellishments becoming "her powers in action"

Think someone was asking for her dead mentor, American Star... but these are also awesome and helpful

This would be him:

[center][img]https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1920620_1448752592021255_554493314_n.jpg[/img][/center]

He's actually been under your nose the entire time - the drawing was in our initial initial Teaser Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebd0Zup85os):

[center][img]https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t31/1900476_1448753452021169_1098133736_o.jpg[/img][/center]

And look, her original concept seemed to be soldier, at least that's the impression I get with the Army shirt :p

Still a bit meh on the one outfit, and not to keen on American Star's look.

They're both looking like they're a mix of quite a few different comic book characters.

Though, seeing these pics, has it been thought to have had Anthem an officer in the Marines before and go with a Marine's sword.

Brand X wrote:

Though, seeing these pics, has it been thought to have had Anthem an officer in the Marines before and go with a Marine's sword.

You mean this one?
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USMC_Marmeluke.JPG][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/USMC_Marmeluke.JPG[/img][/url]

All I have to say about this idea is: OOoooRAH!

interesting in theory... but in practice, i think it would both make her look cacophonous, and destroy any sense of self identity she would have :-/

different boots and a less structured belt would improve it, imo, but I definitely like it better than the outfits we've seen with the skirt.
I actually like the direction of these samples (apart from a1, with that horrid mask) then the other thumbnail page we saw.

maybe it's just a better artist took their pen to it (it's amazing how much more agreeable something can be, just by being drawn in a style we like...)

that's probably why I'd want to fiddle.... "Majestic" doesn't strike the right tone, to me. a Majestic aesthetic, to me, says "Look at how majestic I am, I'm obviously important!" there's something... prideful and self-agrandizing about the concept...

its the difference between pope benedict and pope francis
even though they were both pope.. one said "i'm the damned pope, I should look like the richest being on gods earth, so people know I'm important."
and the other said "I'm the damned pope, I express my ideals in my outward appearance, as much as in my actions"

Few great Superheroes look "Majestic" (unless their specific theme dictates it.) :-/

hehehhe

I think i'd be a lot more interested in papal events if they were drawn and written by frank miller :P (they wouldn't be GOOD, probably, these days.... but they'd have the potential for awesome :p)

Comicsluvr wrote:

The swords that the Marines carry are ceremonial. I also don't think we want to offend any actual Marines. To be honest that top picture isn't bad really. Still not sold on the sword but what if it were part of her kit for when things REALLY got bad? Like when Wonder Woman breaks out her Amazon battle gear? At that point her outfit might even include a helmet.

I really don't see how making her an ex-Marine would offend any Marine.

Still not keen on any of the outfits in the one pic. None really jump out to me as "OMG! WANT TO PICK THIS UP!"

GhostHack wrote:

I like this, GhostHack, particularly the one on the right, with the red. I'd make the star a little smaller. just enough to cover the front of the jacket and add a little angular backslash to the gold on the jacket-cuff, to echo the arm-armor.

I feel your objection to the Sword, but I'm not sure what would be better. In addition to other things mentioned in this thread, the sword is a symbol of Knightly virtue. If not the sword, then What?

But that brings us around to a key issue - What IS Anthem's 'super-power', beyond her leadership qualities? What's her AT? Is she a Blaster, Controller, Defender, Scrapper, or Tanker? (I'm using these terms in the most general sense, but also because they are familiar.) Is she Melee, Ranged, or some hybrid?

The arm-armor is a good 'defensive' cue, but it could just as easily morph into a BFG and start spewing energy-blasts. Or a Longbow shooting arrows. Or a bubble-blaster firing defensive bubbles.

What is her 'base', before taking up the mantle of 'Flagship'?

Be Well!
Fireheart

I would guess she was a Broadsword, Invol or Regen Scrapper. But more than likely she will be totally different in game. As you may have read in the latest update the final look for the Icons is not set, but they have the concept art done and are moving to putting it into 3d. Including having hair that moves. Although that may change if all those flowing locks kill the game engine.

As she's been presented so far, I could easily see her as an Invulnerable/Sword Tanker, first into the fray. She could have been an Olympic Fencer or Kendoka, before taking up 'broadsword', or the sword itself could morph into a rapier/longsword of the sort familiar to 'Three Musketeers' fans, or a sabre, such as used by early Colonial soldiers.

Has it been established that she has Armed Forces training? If so, she would be familiar with firearms, may even be a rifleman. I do see the 'Army' shirt in that one set of images. My issue with this is that firearms Cannot be used to 'subdue', which is possible with a sword, sorta. However, a modern soldier would understand firearms as a weapon and might not be averse to using them, when appropriate. Thus, an extra 'ripple' in the character.

Sadly, so far, there just isn't much Depth to the character and a 'Flagship' needs Lore.

Be Well!
Fireheart

not sure what "great looks" came out of the death arch (I didn't think "red" and "blue" were particularly great.. and everything else was a separate character, i thought) but he did have a lot of different looks during the 90s

if anything, I think a montage like [url=http://theorange.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/superman-costume-history.jpg]this[/url] show just power powerful his core design was, that it can be so heavily "fiddled" with and still capture the same sense of authority and purpose (i.e. the change in costume seems like a change in SETTING, rather than a change in Character)

for myself, I really like the Metropolis outfit, the Last Son outfit, and the classic Man of Tomorrow look...
I really disliked red/blue (dull and character-less...could be ANY hero), True Brit (which I think comes across as too busy) and all the two-tone black and white looks (or white and grey) are uninspiring, imo.

One thing that the re-designs always seem to understand... is the inconic power of a simple design.... even the more complex ones like True Brit and Metropolis are still rather simple, aesthetically: two or three colors, two or three focal points, bold imagery without brashness.

Implications i've had... from various discussions (though, more about art and aesthetic) seem to point to a "contemporary heroic" age... with aesthetics similar to Avengers/Nolan where classic silver-age outfits are translated into more "armored" or "designed" looks and materials.

with that in mind, I'd guess the game will follow a late-silver, early-bronze mentality (long shadows, but not quite the hyper-grit or extremism of McFarlane or Leifeld.) There has been a lot of backlash and discontent with Champions' more cartoonish aesthetic, so i think we won't see that gold/silver ideology making a strong showing here....
...but, of course, this is just from the top down, view... players will likely play every age in the game.

For myself, I feel like what makes a hero, is their ideals. someone like the Punisher is a creepy sort of machismo wish-fulfillment.... eye for an eye type stuff... that I've never found to be "heroic"
Wolverine fits into that same category, for me, for the most part. he makes a good, even compelling, protagonist... but he's not a "Hero" to me.

Meanwhile, someone like Malcom Reynolds is totally a hero, so is Superman or Spiderman.... grudgingly i'd even include batman, though he's not in the same league.

If she was actually part of the army, maybe a rifle would be a better fit. A sword is lethal, but a gun can be loaded with rubber bullets atleast.