So, in every great super-hero franchise you have your "Flagships". The ones that started it all: the mentor's and old favorites on both sides of morality.
Captain America and Doctor Doom are the undisputed masters of the Marvel multiverse.
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Lex Luthor and Superman are paragons of their respective moral alignment in DC.
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Statesman and Lord Recluse were without a doubt the forerunners of the now defunct City of Heroes (RIP)
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Even Champions Online has its flagships in the form of Defender and Doctor Destroyer.
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But that brings me to the question: [b]who are our flagships?[/b] The devs have taken the time to state that nothing is set in stone and that lore is being developed, but it is always good to think ahead on these matters. After-all: the flagship for each alignment will be pivotal in the tone of the whole game, and I think we all want to avoid the somewhat cartoonish vibes brought by Defender and Doctor Destruction (no offence to Cryptic). I am posting this in Media Sharing because I would like to see what we can come up with. At the very least, we can help inspire the devs and give them an idea of what we want. To keep this orderly, [b]any art will be submitted here but the actual discussion will take place on this thread[/b]:http://cityoftitans.com/forum/flagships-discussion-what-makes-flagship. Remember: the goal is to [b]design a character, not a backstory[/b]. What we want are a hero and/or a villain, who the devs will have the option of drawing inspiration from for the design of the game's flagships. Show us some [b]designs[/b]. Remember, your submissions have no guarantee of being used by the devs, this is just to drum up inspiration for them: so have fun!
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Well, first thing they might want to do is decide the power level. Okay, Doom can easily hang with the big guns of the DC universe, but Doom is also supposed to be more of a Team vs Doom, with some luck on the side of a one on one fight.
Big name of Marvel's is Wolverine, considered by many to be OPed, when really, his gimmick is survival. Even with all his training, he gets beat in one on one fights by other Marvel Heroes who can generally hold their own title.
I do think the flagships should be big league supers. I just don't think the PCs should be B-listers or rather, PCs should be buildable to A listers. Stop Galactus, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Godzilla etc etc one on one? No. Being able to go one on one with CoT's Spidey, Batman, Wolverine, Flash, etc etc? Yes!
As for their look, concept, theme...hmmm...tough call! Let's not have a goofy face shield like Statesman please!
Though, something I wouldn't mind seeing is a hero the likes of The Phoenix! Not sure if CoT can do it without a cease and desist from Marvel, maybe with something else in the name...maybe she was the big name that saved the world at the cost of the city and then rose from the ashes a bit younger, a bit weaker, still pretty powerful, to lead a new generation of heroes! :)
Then have an evil tyrant bent on global domination! Maybe not his own country like Recluse, but a hidden underwater fortress and island!
But... don't we have Anthem and Rottweiler and a couple others already lined up?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Are there links to how these two (Anthem and Rottweiler) look?
There was a post right here in Media... http://cityoftitans.com/forum/fan-art-cot-lead-characters
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yeah...Anthem doesn't scream out Flagship hero. She seems lacking. Though I thought Statesman seemed lacking as well, and didn't want to see him killed off. Not impressed by her, maybe that will change as time goes by.
Well, my understanding is that they didn't want the 'iconic' heroes to be overwhelming, like with Superman & Batman, where everybody else is just a Sidekick. So, I guess, in that way, there wasn't going to be any 'flagship' characters in City of Titans.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yeah, but I look at her and don't think "This looks like a character I want to know more about/see in game" Statesman didn't come off that way either, but even in his simpler outfit seemed more interesting.
Rottweiler looks...well he feels like someone took Batman, Wolverine and the Gimp and put them into a blender. This isn't a bad thing (even if it seems like I'm trying to say it is), I mean after all, Cyber Force started out as X-Men v2.0 and while I enjoyed v2.0, I thought it improved much more as time went on :)
I think Anthem looks awesome. She's strong and confident, feminine without being exploited, and the costume as a whole feels like a fresh take on the patriotic American hero concept that nonetheless draws on ideas older than comics.
And that's before I even get to how awesome it is that MWM chose a black woman for their Captain America/Superman/Statesman analogue. That's really inspiring, because it's a clear demonstration that they care about [i]everyone[/i] feeling empowered and represented.
That is the first thing I thought too.
day one vet
I am indifferent towards the subject of the race or gender of the flagships: however, I believe that anthem's costum needs revamped *if* she turns out to be a flagship. I am currently working on some concept art for that. I encourage everyone to submit art on this forum. If you have no opinion on the design of flagships, then I direct your attention to the link in the very first post. It will take you to a forum on the discussion of flagships.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
So where is the physically disabled person then?
I do care about equal rights and inclusion in the game, and I feel something like this helps set the tone for the game and it's players from the get go. The matter of racial and gender equality should be taken very seriously in the modern age of gaming. So flagships should reflect the hopes and aspirations of our own culture.
I am not an artist, I am a musician so you won't be getting any artwork from me. However artwork and the characters are important, but you won't be getting any drawings from me. Unless you want to have to lie through your teeth to me to make me feel good.
day one vet
Ask the devs not a poster who has no power to include it. I agree that this should be in the game also.
day one vet
Sure, it could be tweaked, but I think most of the weaknesses of her look lie in the drawing skill of the artist(s), not the design itself. I do want to draw her myself, if I can find some spare time after everything else I've promised to draw. Though her design does seem to be in flux anyway.
And since you mentioned it, I hope by not caring you mean 'it doesn't bother me either way but if it makes others happy that's fine' not 'I don't think it should matter to anyone.' The latter is as bad as claiming to be colorblind to race: It's a form of erasure, refusing to acknowledge that there are differences, and difference is good! :)
Who says there isn't one? I'm not sure what your point is except to pick a fight.
For a start, we have very little to go on about the signature characters of the game in these early days. Anthem has probably had the most revealed, and that's still very little. For another thing, my point wasn't to literally say they have included people of all kinds already, but that they've made a decision that sends a very clear message about their views on inclusion.
Also, I hope you're not suggesting that Anthem herself should be representative of every marginalised group in America. That would be just an extreme form of tokenism.
I thought the point (of the one comment) was, let's not turn CoT into some "Let's become the game that's soooo PC"
The outfit they have her in looks to be a cluttered mess. You could be right, it could just be that it's the artist, but let's see...waist cape, cybernetic arm (or is that supposed to be some sort of armor), in a costume that blends together badly and looks like it's trying to scream "Look at me! No sex appeal! Because I so get what people keep saying they're clamoring for! Nevermind all evidence points to the opposite, when you look at games playerbase."
Catgirl's outfit isn't great either. What looks to be a Giant Girl with an A on her chest (Atlas?) is bad as well. We go from Anthem's to much to Giant Girl's not enough with a The Super Friends age feel to it.
Rottie's problem is that it looks like he's wearing a gimp mask (could be the artists take). The two magic guys (or magic and a TKer?) are a little better off, but nothing screams "I'll remember them from the game's promo"
Thank you, X. You made your point quite well. :-). That said, I would like to steer this conversation from the political aspects, period. This forum is for design. That's all. Thank you for everyone's participation thus far.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Regarding female flagships.
Covered up, nerdy, sexy, exposed, it should all be there and represented through various characters.
My problem surfaces when people think that a female super should only be sexy eye candy for the male player base, submissive to the adonis male flagship characters, and be considered nowhere as powerful as her male counterpart. These stereotypes should be challenged not because it's PC,but it's reality. There are women who can run circles round men physically and intellectually and this deserves reflecting in the game realistically. Women should have all of their icons, strong, confident, sexy, physical, intellectual, fat, thin, etc... . Through being realistic this game will become less of another stereotype waiting to be scoffed at by a more aware public. I personally think this has nothing to do with being PC it has everything to do with representing the reality of females we are surrounded by in the real world.
And as Gangrel mentioned this must include disabled heros too, there are thousands of heros in the real world who are disabled who can outdo their able bodied peers. This must be reflected in games at some point in a realistic way. Stereotypes must be challenged not because it is PC, but because it is realistic.
day one vet
Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. You are right the OP did ask for art, removing myself from the discussion.
day one vet
Please don't remove yourself from the discussion, sir. Your input is valuable! Just support the topic, right?
FYI, Anthem's 'flagship' mentor was killed during the 'Atlas 33' event and passed her his mantle.
So, when you envision Anthem, as an audio-guy, what sounds do you hear? That's art, too!
Be Well!
Fireheart
I suppose if I am imagining a hero who has survived her mentor and has to carry on the positive messages learnt, I am thinking there has to be a melancholy/revenge/pride theme at various points. So the character would have complex emotions and this could be reflected through major scales, marching/brazilian beats, and minor themes respectively for the emotional values. These could overlap so would have to be scaled to work with one another as the story arc for the character is revealed. Groove/beats/stabs for the pride elements could work as the undercurrent which could also be more predominant in key story areas, and the major and minor as main melodic themes for positive and negative storyline points.
As a theme they would work together, but could be isolated as individual parts to accentuate the story moods.
day one vet
No matter how you go about it.. Anthem is a badass HBIC.
The story I've found so far is both inspiring and full of kickass.
Not to be "that guy" but another white male dominated superhero team would really just be boring.
Crowd Control Enthusiast
I am requesting that we stick to media on this thread. There is a link in the first post that will take you to a thread that you can discuss "what makes a flagship" in detail. All ideas are welcomed on this thread, it is ideal that we all try to work off of eachother and do our best to remain objective on the subject. In this case it is the design. Thank you all.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
[color=#ff0000][b]Moderator Note:[/b][/color]
Hiya, gang.
The discussion does seem to be veering towards a sociopolitical discussion of minority representation. If this was in the general forum, I'd allow it until it became argumentative. However, since this is the Media Forum, it's definitely off-topic. If you have media to share, share. If you want to discuss minority representation (which I did quite a bit of on the old forums), then please find a better thread and forum to do so. Thanks.
Former Online Community Manager & Forum Moderator
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
In an attempt to bring this back to ... the actual Flagships and design discussion.
I did a mock up of my own and, where it's not box quality it did teach me a lot about the character from an art perspective.
After doing a bit of reading up on her this is not a character that has to be mild at all - she's a very aggressive street smart personality with a bit of vengeance to her.
That said - the biggest issue I had in drawing it was two fold, one - we've got an abundance of swords and sorcery aspects mixed with a person of the people on the streets fighting crime. Swords and armor don't really speak well to it but you can do some fun stuff with that.
You see someone with a 3 foot chunk of steel and a bad attitude coming at you in a dark alley and things take on a different perspective than when you see them just on a white background. So yes, it is largely the context of the art that makes some of the characters appear less than what some might expect.
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That said... I really hated drawing that brass running bra she's wearing. It didn't seem to fit - literally - nor did the gladiator skirt. The paldron on one arm - eh... it's a bit gladiator but I could live with it. The 1/3rd mask with the pony tail would have maybe worked better as a full hood 1/2 mask - but that's just me.
Everyone who plays - will have different view.
What I do think we need to maybe consider is this - if you look at the flagships (which, btw, we really really need to put some official names to all of them on the FAQ for Art -- see other threads -- a lot of confusion to the names for these 'flagships')...
What we have are what appears to be two magic users, two people carrying pointy things and an archer. Its more World of Whatcraft than... 'we include all kinds of concepts'. There's no tech here, there's no -- not to use the 'M' word -- I think the current legal term for the condition is, "People of altered genetic makeup".
I'd like to see us have a few Tony Star... no Bruce Wayn... (legal has a word with me) ... um... people with excessive money that built themselves superheroic abilities either through tech or training. To really get a balance there.
And they don't necessarily have to be wealthy - Ragman was an awesome concept if you're familiar with the comic (all you kids go look him up) as was the original Creeper. The original Question had neither money or really much other than just some gas to fix his face and clothes that he stole.
Magic we have in depth, as with the sharp pointy things dept., but a few blasters or cybernetics or flaming / glowing tech types or something along those lines might not be a bad idea. Just something to get some inclusion and say, "Hey if you like that we got you covered.".
We also need to decide who the actual flagships are -- is the skinny robot, the catperson, the giant woman and the guy with diamonds floating around him ... are they flagships or concepts?
Basically I guess I'm saying we need to define who is a flagship - even if we don't give out backstory data necessarily - but have a unified front to the appearance.
Well, there is that new picture with a several changes to the line up that was posted.
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Only Anthem and Magic Man are still in the main line up. I would have taken out the second swordsman and magic user and put in the Black Diamond Guy and Amazon back at least.
LOL... Yeah, it's official - they need to come up with some names. "Sorcery Dude" and "Magic Man", "Black Diamond Guy" are not gonna cut it. :D
there's not just going to be one "magic" hero.... but honestly, this picture looks like a magic TEAM.
Why not seperate all of them from anthem (give her a different supporting crew) and make these folks a tea, who travel the world thwarting magical crimes and criminals? (like how there are other Sorcerers that show up in a Dr. Strange comic... or other Green Lanterns besides the Earth ones)
Make Anthem the "Magic" hero of the Iconic team... with ties to these people, but make her team more like an avengers or Justice League that expresses the range of hero types represented in the game...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
See! You get it! Anthem's one outfit was just to cluttered. It looked like some went into the CoH creator and used every piece that seemed unqiue!
One arm armor! Chest Armor! Give her a sword! Have to have a skirt! Oh! We'll go with Wonder Woman style colors! YEAH! Lets make her like Wonder Woman only we'll give her full spandex!!!
Seriously, she comes off as kinda aweful. :/
And that last pic, does look like a team of magic based heroes except for the archer...the one tech head?
I like the concept of a sidekick stepping up to replace her mentor's place as the new Iconic leader of the main super group of the city, but Anthem doesn't quite do it for me. She has the potential, but I think her name and appearance need to be streamlined and polished. There is too much spangle and brass and not enough uniformed branding.
I find 'Anthem' to be a very evocative hero-name.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I think that is somewhat the goal. From all I've read she's a bit like Statesman in that she's the glue that holds a lot of different types together.
We keep going back to that image - which is great btw - but we really don't know if any of those aside from Anthem will actually be the icon/flagships.
Anthem's design, btw, I do know is bits of armor from her mentor - and I know the sword and paldron on her arm are directly from him, I think his name was something like American Star or something - a kind of immortalish Captain America/Statesman/Spirit of Freedom etc, that dated back to the 1700's. That was the early scuttlebutt going around but that may have changed drastically.
When he died saving her she took up the mantle, colors, etc, out of respect... well and the magic that sword and armor provided. I'd have to go back and re-read all those early threads. May also have been a touch of a nod there to Ms. Liberty from CoH with the sword - hard to say. She's very original. But there's a lot of clutter there I will give you that.
Someplace around there's a set of different costume concepts Yoko did last year that were on the old forums at one point and they had everything from more classic heroes to cyborg/military. Since we're a fan forum grouping here - there is absolutely no reason why we can't riff on it and submit our own designs. (Hint)
I've seen some amazing work by everyone - you guys blow me away with the stuff you're posting. Perhaps the best way to indicate a different view of her... is just to have a contest or for fun and re-imagine her.
We've got a basic story. We've got reference works ... let's just go nuts and make her in our image (so to speak) for fun.
I'd like to see a better balance of heroic tropes represented - as opposed to the heavy supernatural/magic/pointy things. I like those too mind you, but having a balance is nice where you see a tech guy, and what is clearly a Bat/Brawler and so on. CoH handled that nicely with States and Lady Liberty and Brawler and Positron and well, everyone we loved.
Agreed. The name is good. I even like the patriotic angle. The outfit and powers feel very meh for a flagship. :/
I agree Brand.
I actually don't mind the arm bit, OR the sword.... but not both.
I do wish I could draw, I can picture a version of Anthem I think would look great. :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Do a stick figure - with notes where you want what. Or another option is to scrap book it - basically get bits and pieces of images like what you're looking for and make a kind of Franken-image we can use that as a basis for your design and sketch it out.
I'm sure we'd all help with the art. I'd give it a bash.
I'm gonna try to paper-doll it...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
So.... keeping in mind that I am not an artist.. this is what I was thinking.
(keeping in mind that I intend her to be wearing brown leather gloves and boots of an appropriate style (more heroic, or more "soldier") but I don't have the talent to work with hands or alter the feet enough to express leather boots.)
As a further aside, while I had intended the coloring to be as shown, in doing the coloring I realize the outfit would look very cool (sort of Captain Marvel(MC) ish, if the lined portion outlined a Blue top, while the lower portion of the outfit was left white (read would probably be too harsh, and would ruin the "pop" of the belt))
I'd like to point out that I MUCH prefer Anthem not wearing a mask. It feels more "flagship" (and honestly, more heroic, imo) and, while it would make sense for a sidekick to wear a mask... it would seem very fitting if American Star's death prompted her to "out" herself and take her place at the head of the city's heroes.
{and she REALLY needs gloves and boots, in the picture above... otherwise she loses some of her "classic-ness." I think Brown Leather gives her back some of that "street level heroness" back... but Gold or, if we HAVE TO... Red, would also work well.}
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Part of my issue is that I don't equate 'Anthem' with 'Magic' anything. I look at the picture and I see Lady Sif or Valkyrie trying to emulate star-spangled heroes. An anthem is a patriotic song, a theme, an idea. As depicted the character seems out of sorts with the name.
Now she's obviously supposed to be patriotic and from America because she's wearing stars, stripes and red, white and blue. But why? Her origin is that she picked up the mantle from her deceased mentor. Nothing about America's national history screams 'Magic' to me. Mages in comics have often been enigmatic characters who cared little for borders and petty national squabbles.
I know you guys put a lot of work into this but I don't see it flying as-is. I think she needs a rewrite and best to do it now before her image gets plastered all over everything.
Btw, going with a female lead instead of the typical square-chinned guy? Good idea...very progressive. I like it.
I see no problem with the character pictured being the lead. I just don't see the name Anthem working with her as written. Either change the name (which I like) or change the origin and image. Sorry but as a comic fan that's where I'm at.
I remember when Star Wars was cool...a long, long time ago...
I am picturing a slightly different version, but I think ghosty's version is 100% better than what we currently have
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
I'm pretty mucyh in agreement.
I think the idea was a LITERAL "passing of the mantle" (which is both kind of cool... and reeeeally dorky)
But in that light, I think most of Anthem's problem stem from American Star's Design, rather than her own.
I don't understand why American Star is a "knight." Knights are not, thematically, American. They are European (or asian, if we consider Samurai). Americans are Soldiers, Adventurers, Peacekeepers..... but a Knight is not a concept that adheres to American ideals.
...because a Knight is beholden to a Lord. And Those who fight for America, are beholden to an IDEAL. (the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, essentially)
American Star doesn't make sense as an "American Hero"... and so Anthem's Design makes no sense.
...but there's more.
"Anthem" is a great name, but in comics, the general rule (like 70-90% of the time) A character's "Callsign" reflects their abilities. Banshee isn't a claws scrapper, Flash isn't summoning spectral warriors, The Human Torch isn't Telekentic, Green Arrow doesn't mob around in a high tech robot suit of armor.
And look at Flagship characters...
Superman... is a SUPER man. much like Doc Savage before him, he stands above all humanity as an example of idyllic perfection (granted, they've altered him over the years to make him less ridiculous, but the core rhetoric remains)
Captain America? well, he's an American Super Soldier, even his rank acknowledges that he Directly commands a Company, on the field... he's not a general sitting miles away from the action... he's In charge, and he's in the fray.
So... Who is Anthem?
....Well, first and foremost, she's a sidekick. A sidekick who has stepped up to being a stand alone hero. She's Speedy, becoming Red Arrow, or Dick Grayson becoming Knightwing.
So.. who was she before.... when she wasn't wearing American Star's magic gear... what was her deal?
The implications from the media is that she had a bit of a scrappy, urban streak to her.... but how? just bare knuckles and moxie?
As much as the development team is being "progressive" and having a young black female Flagship.... I cant help feeling like they made the Shiny Toothed WASP Knight character... and then co-opted his "identity" onto this new model.
Which would be fine, honestly.... if the character was American Star II.
There is a huge difference between a Sidekick, and a Protege. (though it might not seem like it at first glance)
A Sidekick has his/her OWN identity. Own Personality.... A protege is being trained to ADOPT their mentor's ideals, personality, and tropes.
....Anthem is a Sidekick, not a Protege... she is not "becoming" American Star... even when she puts on his armor.
In that light, she must have her OWN identity... not American Star's identity slapped onto a black woman.
So... Who IS Anthem... why did the gods of the universe allow her to choose the name Anthem? (what characteristic of hers defines her as the embodiment of an Anthem?) Who was she BEFORE American Star Died? was she American Sprite, his streetwise artful dodger, helping him out of tough scraps with her dirty fighting and unassuming demeanor? Or was she more like Bucky Barnes.. a Heroic normal person who was friends with the guy under American Star's armor..?
The reason why her costume is so awful, such a mess, is because she has no identity of her own. She has nothing to be reflected in her costume, other than chucks of armor she stole off a corpse..... and so the rest of it is just an outsider's brash attempt at mimicking american nationalism. She ends up looking Comical...instead of like a Comic Character.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
hah! I'm picturing a slightly different version, myself.. but I can't actually draw... so this is the best my sad abilities could accomplish.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Oh... and about that sword Anthem's been carrying around....
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
This makes no sense at all. It would certainly be far more accurate to say that "knights are not American" because even in the time of Columbus, Knighthood already was in decline: The USA are far too young to have had knights.
It also reveals your utter ignorance of the history of knighthood, which indeed was focussed on an ideal (chivalry)!
I might add that those complaints against Anthem are utterly incomprehensible to me. All of them.
[url=http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/] Save the endangered Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus from Extinction![/url]
you do realize the chivalric peroid was less than two generations long, while knighthood in europe spanned several centuries.
Also, Chivalry was not an ideal, it was a code of ethics, and regardless of such semantics, Knights were still beholden to Lords first. Only in the romances of the late middle ages (Mallory's Arthur tales and later) did we begin to see the notion of Chivalry being an ideal above duty to a lord, and that was several centuries after the period was supposed to have occurred, crafted by romantic poets and authors an idealized utopia and as social commentary... not a factual account of how knights ACTUALLY behaved, or were expected to.
My comments do make sense, and If there is confusion, I can try to be more clear in answering any questions.... Your comment that the US is too young to be defined by the concept of a knight is also extremely valid.
oh, and that "white pants" pallet swap I mentioned above, I gave it a quick try (not the best coloring job)... I even tried to make gloves and boots...:
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I watched JL WAR last night, and all I could think was, Wonder Woman needs to lose the sword. I think the same with Anthem.
I agree, Brand....
honestly, I always circle back to the justification for why Captain America has a shield. (and that awesome comic I posted above ;P)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I like the Anthem concept, GH. :)
the all blue, or the blue and white?
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I really like the look. Much cleaner, and frankly I like the more typical super hero look.
the scabbard buckles (belt stars) could be gold... and the back star could be gold as well...
I notice that there's already a "size manipulation" character and a villain with a "chest letter" thing going on... so the A on Anthem's chest could easily be a star cut out, and remove the star on the back, just making the bars cross.
there's honestly a lot of different directions this basic idea could take... (making the "top" red with white bands, a white star ringed in gold in the middle of the chest with blue "pants" could also work)
but I like this set up... I think, too often, when designers think "Patriotic" they JUST think red white and blue in equal measure..... and the resulting look ends up being kinda.... awful.
my general rule with costumes is that you need to have 3-4 colors ( skin color or hair color might count as that fourth, though) and the ratios need to be:
Primary color: 50-75%
Secondary color: 15-40%
Tertiary color: 7-10%
Quaternary color: 1-3%
just as a general guideline.... it's not a hard fast rule, but a guideline for balance.... and I think most "Iconic" looks really follow something close to this...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'm gonna call BS on knighthood being focused on chivalry. Historically, the term knight comes from the Germanic word for a professional soldier and has nothing to do with chivalry - from the French chevalier, and both just basically mean a horsed and armored soldier. The concept of 'chivalry' as we know it today is primarily from romanticized writings from the last 300 years, and most of those in the last 150 years. Real knights were basically warlords who didn't give a crap about 'might for right' and they abused the heck out of the masses which is why they were brought down in the first place.
The portrayal of them as these honorable creatures is nothing more than pure fiction and historical records support that - there was never this 'chivalry' that we talk about. It's a fiction we've created to gloss over or justify what was often pretty horrible atrocities on people. We'd much rather think of these honorable men who went on quests and fought for what was right, than realize we stole children, enslaved whole peoples and if they so much as argued with anyone we had them drawn and quartered. We, frankly were more like the villains in our stories of chivalry than the knights.
WE focus on chivalry and knights. But, historically - no such beasties.
Like the redesign Ghosthack! Looks like an elegant fencer compared to the original costume. I really didn't have a problem with her old costume as she looks like Lady Law or Columbia
Who says America isn't magical? Why was America founded by Freemasons then?
Sure we Americans don't have a history dealing with knights nor do we have any contact with Greek culture yet D.C. is covered with pagan tributes to Greek beliefs. Western society is based on the wondering knight. Joseph Campbell goes into great detail when he talks about the Arthurian legends of the Holy Grail and Courtly Love. Western society he says is summed up as celebration of the individual and not towards the group as Eastern societies tend to focus on. An example of this is of how the knights must all break away and travel down their own paths on the quest for the Holy Grail, the Grail is often thought as a stand-in for self-fulfillment so the knightly tales set the foundations for much of America's respect towards individual freedom. Compare this to Chinese/Hindu tales that tell listeners that they must take on the role of their caste and be identified by their role as merchant/fishermen/emperor/warrior.
These knightly virtues can be further demonstrated by Magna Carta being the precursor to our own Bill of Rights. Our tales of cowboys mirror if not copy the stories of knighthood. So having our flagship carrying a sword is fine by me as our founding fathers were made up of officers who carried cavalry swords to whip their troops into formation, something that Anthem can be doing to our society's criminals by whipping them into seeing their errors. As to America not following a Lord...To me it seems America only vows allegiance to the lord in heaven, God. I think I don't have to point out how Christian America is, to the point of being extremists. Alan Watts even points out that America is not a true democracy as it holds a belief of a monarchy in Heaven so our European knightly train of thought has never left our psyche.
May the wings of liberty never lose a feather
Yeah.. I think that's what I was going for, FP, without realizing it....
I think Anthem works better as an adgile "duelist".. rather than a fierce soldier....
Perhaps that's my own gender bias, I donno... but I cant help feeling like an overly aggressive "brawler", male or female, doesn't really fit the "Flagship" concept. Flagships CAN fight, of course.. but I think their default is something more... Pleasant?
Cheerfulness, Comradere, support...
Flagship heroes are people you WANT to know. Want to be friends with.... A war-hungry Amazon just doesnt fit that, to me.
And, if we consider her as originally being a sidekick... and IF her powers stem from the "magic" of American Star's armor.... then she didn't really have the chops to be a "tough guy" before now...
As a sidekick, she was, arguably, just human... and so it would stand to reason that a viable team of "toughguy" American Star and "swift and adgile" American Sprite (she needs a sidekick nickname:P Dick Grayson didn't become "Adult Robin"... he got to become Nightwing... So Anthem had to be something before she was Anthem :P)
Also, I love the idea of a Flagship who uses "brains over brawn". I mean, over the years Cap A and Superman have become more "thinky with the squishy grey thingy" but Cap's still a soldier, first... and Supes as a rustic middle american who was designed to fight against the "tyranny of the intelligentsia"
It would be kind of cool if Anthem's deal was "talking"... hence the name.... and that, while she could fight, it was never her first choice.
this would lead her to be admired by less "violent" proponents, and groan-worthy to the more vigilante types....
And there's nothing wrong with "Magic"... it goes against the core ideology of America (you are defined by your actions, your hard work, etc) but in terms of heroism, there's nothing wrong with being "infused by the spirit of Colombia" or whatever....
That said, there's no reason why magic and romantic knight mythos need to be linked. Anthem can have a non-knight-based magical origin just fine...
As for carrying a sword... that's a different issue all together. A sword is like a Handgun, it's only real purpose is to kill other human beings. The only means of "protecting the innocent" with a sword.. is by "slaying the dragon"
as a symbol, as an Icon, it defies the underpinnings of what we usually define as "Heroic Ideals" (particularly in respect to Flagship characters...)
Now, saying that, there is NOTHING WRONG with a sword-wielding hero.... but having the FLAGSHIP hero wield a sword establishes a particular moral structure to the entire game (the primary goal becomes slaying the dragon, not protecting the weak.)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I think we're focusing too much on 'knights' and as far as I know there's really nothing about Anthem that says she's a knight - just that she's taken on the tools and the homage of her mentor. Maybe it's the chest plate and the sword and the arm guard... but I don't think there was ever a big story portion about knighthood and we're just interpreting things that way.
As for magic and America - magic is magic and it's got no homeland perse. Its a force and it's everywhere. Supernatural or Preternatural forces can, and mythologically do exist everywhere. So yeah, America is as magical as anywhere else. Native Americans have a very rich magical heritage. If you're just talking about a more cultural magic - there's very definitely a magical heritage in America. We even refer to it often as the Spirit of America, Freedom's Spirit - and I would say such spirits call back to the earliest forces of those who fought for such things.
It predates, I would say chivalry and gentry and goes to what is fair and just, even predating the greek mythos. It's a common ground spirit of man. To channel that spirit, those core beliefs, would make you an impressive force to be reckoned with. When I think of the word "Anthem" there's something in that word that speaks to me of that - not knights or chivalry. Its the face of someone who is willing to stand up for what is right against the face of oppression. Who, will take hit, and get up over and over. Not because they have the power or the strength but because they have to.... there is no one else... they're that last act of defiance, that last act of bravery, of courage.
That - to me - is what I think of when I hear the word "Anthem", not a song, but a rallying cry.
Great posts Ghosthack and Mike!
I agree with your points. Only thing I would do is give Anthem the samurai belief that the sword has a destructive spirit (ancestors spirits or demon, both gets used a lot if I remember correctly) within the blade. They say samurais held this belief and only pulled out their sword when they knew somebody was going to die as the blade must feed on blood before it can be put away. These will give Anthem the reason why she must use her talking abilities to descaled the situation for she knows if she pulls out her sword somebody will die, some samurai stories even have the sword-owner dieing on his own sword for foolishly unsheathing it so this thought of a self-destructive weapon being carried by a noble person has a lot of great story possibility in it.
Don't know if it was brought up but don't she remind y'all of Ms. Liberty of CoH?
May the wings of liberty never lose a feather
She does, which saddens me a little.
As for the Samurai reverence to the blade.... It "works"... but at the same time... it sets (imo) a very bad, and dark precedent. The flagship hero, imo, should be unwilling to kill under any but the most extreme circumstances (i.e., if it happens, it should be utterly unavoidable.)..... but when the character's "primary tool" is a sword.... That sensibility gets thrown out of the window.
...unless we're suggesting that the blade is little more than an aesthetic accessory and essentially never leaves its scabbard.
No matter how reverent Anthem is..... I don't think I could back her, if she was that Feudal. what gives her the right to be judge, jury, and executioner? the fact that she's strong?
that's really not my kind of hero.... and definitely not my kind of setting (which the Flagship Embodies.)
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Well two points on the Samurai thing, the first being if the 'spirit' is in the blade - it's not really a part of her is it? It's the blade that has that spirit, not the person, which to me would diminish her as a character. She'd rely on it as opposed to make use of it. One is a very active role - the other is a passive (possessed) role.
The second is that when I hear the name Anthem - I don't think of one spirit, or one, it's a symphony of spirits all with a common goal, a common belief, and I agree that's just too feudal, to eastern thought and frankly too limiting.
I think you can, if you're so empowered, make use of a blade that can cut - but be something that doesn't cut flesh (unless needed to) but cuts on a different (non-physical) level. Something that's just as capable of striking you down without killing - or something along those lines. But I do agree, I've personally always had issues with heroes that had swords or claws and somehow never killed anyone. I mean, come on... how Wolverine is always drawn slashing at someone like Batroc the Leaper who, let's face it is about as "C" list a villain as they come and the guy's never missing a limb?? Wolverine is 'the best at what he does' but apparently his adamantium claws don't do much against flesh and his 'best' means they just pass out with no real blood loss 90% of the time. Never bought that.
Valkyrie swings a 4 foot blade that slices vault doors open... but it just bruises a mugger? Which has always been my issue with swords - they kind of break that whole suspension of disbelief by making me swallow a whopper. :D
No I don't mean for Anthem's sword to have her soul in it, just pointing out what the samurai's believed in.
May the wings of liberty never lose a feather
I got you, FP....
you should take the survey
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/anthem-community-survey
Honestly, from an aesthetic point of view, having the sword and scabbard does look cool... but Auto touched on something rather important, imo, based off something I said in passing:
The Flagship character of this game.... cannot be a "knock off" of American Star.
Anthem can't be "super" BECAUSE of the pieces of armor she retrieved from him.
She can't be Robin to his Batman... or Speedy to his Green Arrow.
I mean.. not really...
She needs to be something more like... Power Girl to his Superman.. or like Jubilee to his Wolverine.... or even Black Canary to his Green Arrow...
she needs to be her own woman, in terms of personality and powersuite... She can be under his tutelage... or his "RL" friend and comrade (Bucky Barnes or Falcon Style)... she can even "be in touch with the Spirit of Colombia" just LIKE American Star....
but she can't be HIM.
it's the antithesis of Iconism.
:-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I don't feel that the 'mantle' that Anthem inherits needs to be a costume piece. That 'mantle' is a responsibility, it may be something that enhances her power, but it would be channeled through HER powers, so 'Spirit of Freedom' works just fine, but it also means that she can no longer follow in her mentor's shadow. She must take the point.
I can definitely see her roving from team to team in the community, always a focal-point, always pulling teams together and inspiring them to work better together. She wouldn't need to replace team leaders, only manifest support for them.
That's what 'anthem' means to me, Inspiration, rallying cry, consensus, synthesis, purpose. Let Anthem be all of that and she'll absolutely be a premium hero.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I agree it doesnt "need" to be... however, what we've seen, so far, is that is IS. she straps on American Star's magic kit, and becomes Anthem, new Flagship hero...
whether that remains/survives is yet to be written... however, as it stands now... she's a Super hero, because she's got a magic sword and pieces of magic armor...
:-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Umm... we haven't actually 'seen' anything. ;)
I'm waiting for official storylines. So we're really letting this get waaaaay ahead of things. At this point there's a lot of speculation and intent but there's nothing set in stone as far as I know.
Until I see something official as far as costume or story, as opposed to forum discussion (even if it is by devs or anyone else), it's not set.
I don't have issues with speculating on costume designs because that's all fun, but I almost feel like we're putting words into the devs mouths and taking speculation as fact. I know a lot of stuff was released and talked about during the KS but as far as I know there has yet to be an official anything just yet.
If there is - if you could - provide links because I'd actually like to read it for myself. I keep reading about stuff that was in the KS, but it's actually pretty limited when it comes to flagships as far as anything I can find - and I'm not saying it hasn't been said, in fact I'm sure it has - all of our speculations - have been said at some point or hinted here and there... But I also know there's a big difference between stories in development and concept and final version.
From my perspective, the stuff in the KS is as close to "official" as we've got... I'll go hunt down info.... but since it's got nothing to do with Clarkstown' I dont have anything saved (so literally starting from the beginning and working my way through)
My intention is not to "put words" in the team's mouths... but The only information we have, is what they've posted... so while it's fine and dandy to chew the cud on our personal pipedeams, I can't help feeling that time is best served making sure that what was in the "concept and development" phase that we, collectively, DO NOT WANT.... doesn't make it through to the "final vision" stage, if at all possible. :-/
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Think the outfit needs to lose the brown gloves and boots, but I do like the rework here better, though I think it can still have a mask for her secret identity and still work, just needs to be better than the one she had.
Also think she just needs to lose the sword period. Though I see nothing wrong with her being a brawler!
Give her a classic good soldier mentality when it comes to being a patriotic hero. Someone who values freedom, hardwork, but still looking out for those who can't protect themselves (basically think Captain America).
How she got her powers can vary. Maybe she's half-alien, half human, all American! *to steal the tag line of my own patriotic themed superhero from CoH*
I do think she needs something, maybe a power gauntlet?
would you have her with a pure tights look (no gloves or boots)?
leather boots and gloves add a sense of grounding, connection to normal life (imo)... and also helps break up monotony without adding 'busyness' (because they're a neutral)
'power gauntlets', to me, imply a different sort of character than the one we've seen (a completely new direction, rather than a 'tweak')
likewise, i think that a mask is both unnecessary and less 'cool'. it would be nice to see the flagship character being Out (even moreso if she's the only one and it was part of the wake of hurricane atlas). I've always prefered the superman face to the captain america face. I like the openness, the sense of upfrontness and honesty.
...and I'd actually like to avoid Anthem turning into a 'heroic soldier,' if at all possible. Not in the least because i don't want her to become 'black female captain america'... the soldier thing is cap a's wheel house... and that is not all that America is.
I don't want her to be raised in Kentucky on hard work and Jesus, either.... Clark's got a handle on the heartland.
Anthem should represent a new facet of american society, that still resonates with the whole of american society....
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I would like to see something new done with Anthem as well. I hope she won't become a copy of the usual tropes we find for minorities such as making her a tough streetwise hero from the projects, I mean that's fine for some chars but I wouldn't have a flagship especially with a game's first black female lead. Time to do something new with Anthem I mean we do have a black president who wasn't raised in the ghetto of Detroit, Harlem or Chicago; so why can't we have Anthem be a middle-class suburb mom with kids?
Having her be a mom will showcase her loving qualities as well as be able to install American values on the readers by her interaction with her kids (I imagine her kids being football players and A's students). Making her middle-class can have so much potential story wise as she can deal with the financial problems America is currently in as the middle class are slowly being sucked in either the poor or rich camp. We can have Anthem be the daughter a civil rights activist who from early age installed the virtues and love of liberty she will carry on through her hero career. Given the problems of today however, we will have an Anthem who is no longer wide-eyed sidekick but rather her own heroine that should be constantly questioning and battling with the notion of "Is this the America that American Star died for? Are the government taking the freedoms my father struggled to achieve for me?" something that Captain America deals with in his own series (pre Marvel NOW!)
There's a fine balance the writers need to be aware of, they can't make Anthem be "too white" or a black stereotype. I have faith they would find the balance but having her a patriotic black female hero does tie her with Frank Miller's Martha Washington. Never read the series myself but Anthem seems safe at first glance but who knows if she might pick up the ultra-violent habits of Miller's heroine.
All-in-all I trust the writers and programmers as they are the same studio that give us great chars such as Statesman, Manticore, Synapse and Positron :)
May the wings of liberty never lose a feather
yes, they MUST avoid the "too white" trap. She's got straight hair... and I can live with that... but no blue eyes (despite the rule :P) or overly Caucasian features.
I like the idea of her being suburban... but a mom with kids might be a tough sell.
This has more to do with the nature of Superheroes in general... in a sense, they are "Married to the job".... once they find love and get a family... they lose quite a bit of their appeal.
Basically, "living the dream" isn't the same as "fighting for the dream"
Does "mom anthem" fight Mr. Vile, and risk leaving her kids without a mom? is she, functionally, a Latchkey parent, spending her time protecting strangers instead of raising her kids?
Or...is she apologizing for not being the hero the City needs, because Suzy needs to go to the dentist?
Heroes, and flagships in particular... do what we can't, fight the battle we can't..... They fight against our fears, so we can raise OUR families.
I think it might be better if she was an intelligent college student who Figured out American Star's identity (you realize he just takes his glasses off, right?!) and basically pestered him into becoming his sidekick.
Making her smart, ambitious, driven, and clever... making any "anger" based on real world issues/psychology, rather than "I hate bad stuff, cause its bad!" defines her and rounds her into a more complete character.
for a backstory, maybe her mom was a Civil Rights proponent and lawyer, and her dad was a cop (they met on opposite sides of a rally ;P) and she's always wanted to make a difference...
for a darker/grittier turn... say she was raped as a teen and had hidden a feeling of helpless ever since... becoming a hero was a way of moving past her trauma and becoming empowered again.
Having her age closer to the mid-20s makes her easier to identify with just like making her suburban and at least moderately middle-class.
maybe we should have an Anthem Biography Contest ;P
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Anthem has the potential to be a fantastic concept. I thought the initial design was a great foundation. The name alone has me very curious about this character. Is there a back story for Anthem available? learning about her would make it easier to design her uniform.
Edit: looking at recent posts it seems her story hasn't been conceived yet?
We know certain details:
She used to be American Star's Protege/Sidekick
When American Star was killed during Hurricane Atlas, The woman who would become Anthem acquired pieces of American Star's armor, and his sword.
After donning the armor bits and sword, she takes up the mantle of the City's Hero.
we don't know much else.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'll see if I can merge Ghost's idea while staying true to the original artists concept.
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/flagships-discussion-what-makes-flagship
If what you are creating is story related it is better suited to this thread.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Where might I post a design idea? Does it stay here or move to the other topic?
That would be best here.:-)
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
This is a quick rough concept sketch...Photobucket really shrinks the quality of these down. But here's my attempt to take the original creators concept and use elements from GhostHack...with a bit of my own thrown in there...
j'adore
I want to add that if she got the armor, etc from her male predecessor why would she have a breastplate for breasts?
Crowd Control Enthusiast
shoulderpads of doom, a little :-/ (hanging tassels seem a bit much, wings maybe too big?)
and I'd much rather see a more functional belt than a sash that magically holds her sword in place...
....and I definitely prefer shorter, loose hair.
other than that, she looks very good...
(B+/A-)
what does the back look like? in mine the "stripes" came around to frame the back, but your design has a unique bottom to the "corset", that doesnt match the stripes up top...
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
No biggy Sorry you didn't like it. This was just a one shot attempt for fun. There is no back shot.
The sash is held up by the star clip over her uniform securing it to the waste allowing the rest of the sash to free-flow like a butt cape.
The hair is a different attempt to the original creators ponytail design.
Appreciate the post.
I like it, seems a little too dark and intense, but a nice job over all:-) Better than I can do (although that won't stop me:-P)
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
hey now, B+/A- is FAR from "not liking it"
I just have a more "tights and capes" sensibility about heroes, even ones inspired by revolutionary americana (I mean, Orion in my signature is based on Washington's military uniform :P)
your take is definitely more.... Military. The high boots, the shoulder pads, and the ceremonial sash all have that sort of begining 1900's Colombian Valkrye thing going on.... placed over top of a contemporary "tights-clad hero" outfit
It's a different aesthetic than someone like, for example, Superman.
It actually reminds me, a lot, of something I might see in Starcraft.
It could be a design for an Alien spaceship captain from a Guardians of the Galaxy or Green Lantern comic book series...
Its not "Amazonian", which is good. but it's also not (imo) Superheroic.
It's not that I "dislike" it.
it's just not what I imagine a Flagship Hero "should" be wearing... if that makes sense
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Actually... in that same vein... I think it would be awesome to have a similar character as Wonder Woman coming from an alien race (who dresses like the visited nation, to promote peace)...
...and this version of Anthem TOTALLY fits into that sort of model...
Not Amazonian... but a sot of fusion between WW's visual touchstones and Martian Manhunter's backstory.
Food for thought....
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
No need to explain yourself at all, was just a mistake on my part. I didn't read your full post. :) Being the newbie around here I've been thread jumping and skimmed through your reply, sorry bout that...I appreciate your comments. I'm a child of the Silver-Age myself when the designs were very sleek. Though my designs tend to pull from everything for my personal work.
Thanks again.
I consider my own design sense to be "Nickle Silver"..... bronze age amalgmated with a touch of modern nickles and zincs to make a silver-like alloy ;P
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
Ok... so here's a different swing on the Anthem Idea....
...what if she didn't pick up chunks of armor..... what if she found a torn chunk of American Star's Cape, Imbued with the spirit of Freedom... and his sword
What if that's what she wears, to honor her mentor.... the re-hemmed remnants of his cape?
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
I'm not saying she has to be a soldier. Just have that sort of mentality...loyalty, working for what you want, defending those who can't defend themselves from super powered villains and evil forces, representing the ideals of America, freedom, truth and justice.
Not saying have her raised on a farm. How about in a poor city neighborhood with parents who taught her to work for and earn what she wants, when surrounded by those just taking what they want with a gun or waiting for a hand out.
I never found a mask to be uncool, it really depends on the mask.
As for the power gauntlet, that was more of an idea based on her golden arm armor. Would give a blast attack option, without her having a gun...oh and hey...Ms Liberty with a mix of Back Alley Brawler's power gauntlets!
Oh, and yes to the boots and gloves, Ghost.
For my tastes, the whole armor/epaulets/weapon look very strongly implies the military. The imperialistic militaries of the pre-World War I era, in particular, with all the associated implications of subjugation and inequality. It gives me more of a 'master and commander' vibe than 'hero of the people'. Overall I have to agree with GhostHack that a simpler, more traditional 'tights & cape' approach for her costume would be better.
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Darth Fez, bless your fez.
I don't get mad, I restructure the laws of quantum physics and resolve the situation with temporal engineering.
Sometimes however, there's such a thing as thinking to hard about it. :p
On this point, X... we definitely disagree. the GREAT characters, while not mulled over by a committee, were definitely "thought hard" about. If you look back at interviews with their creators, every choice was deliberate and nearly everything we see in those characters (even today) was INTENDED by their creators.
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[i]....Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars...[/i]
When I see such elements (as depicted in Nova's picture), that's what I [i]begin[/i] to think. First impressions, and all that. After all, one wouldn't include such elements in a uniform if that wasn't the intent. The official art (as seen in [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/42697#comment-42697]post 26[/url] above) is considerably more neutral in that regard.
I do think MWM needs to decide if she ought to be in armor or tights rather than going with the half-and-half solution. I'll also add that, as much as Fighting Patriot defends the imagery of a knight for an American hero, if you show me a picture of someone in armor with a sword, my first thought will always be of (medieval) Europe. That said, there's nothing wrong with going against expectations (naturally the potential pitfalls of doing so should be kept in mind).
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Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
Good points Fez. There's definitely a military theme going on there.
Is Anthem's uniform officially being changed? Sorry for being naive...I thought this was just a "for fun", kind of discussion. Are they actually thinking of changing the character? There are a few topics around the boards about this concept...
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