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What is the deal with the two stretch goals you have...?

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Bodai
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What is the deal with the two stretch goals you have...?

Hello,

I am wondering, where did you guys get the idea for the two stretch goals you have (so far), did anyone actually ask for these? And so many that they are right there from the start?

This is not meant as a criticism or a jab.... I just read those, and had to say to myself "Really?", are those the stretch goals that really hit the top of the list? I know tablets and these other platforms are very popular, so maybe it is me who lacks vision in saying this. For me, those would be far, far down the list, I don't know, maybe right after hamidon flavored condoms or something. (sorry I know that was snarky, I am very crass)

Personally, I don't see the point of these. Sure, you could sit there on the couch with your tablet and play with the avatar creator. I doubt you would try to do so on the tiny screen of a phone. If people really want this maybe you could just do it in a browser or something.

-Bodai

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Eh, I kind of like the idea.

Eh, I kind of like the idea. Many people have tablets these days (whether they be Amazon Kindle Fires, Apple iPads, Google Nexuses, or Microsoft Surfaces), and if you take your tablet with you to work or whereever and you're bored on your lunch break, break out your tablet, make a costume, save it to a file, sync that file to your Dropbox or Google Drive or Microsoft SkyDrive account, and voila. You have a neat costume for your shiny new hero or villain when you get home.

Personally though, I'd like to see something along the lines of a tablet version of Mids' for City of Titans.

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Seeing as how they plan on

Seeing as how they plan on releasing the character creator in a standalone package before the actual game(correct me if I'm wrong on this), I kind of like the idea.
That way I can play around with creating my characters for hours while letting them work on the game! Haha.

What I am curious about would be the stretch goal after those two. Perhaps we could get a sneak peak at it? Never know if it would entice people into making the leap to contribute.

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On a related subject... are

On a related subject... are native Mac and/or Linux versions part of the stretch goals, or part of the basic goals?

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Right, not saying these are

Right, not saying these are necessarily bad, I am saying are those two stretch goals what you guys would ask for FIRST?!?! (And, at the expense of other possibly cooler ones...)

I definitely agree with having a mid's like tool that come from the game developers, no reason we can't get that with a community-driven game like this.

Yes, they have said there will be a Mac version, haven't seen a Linux mention. They have or are about a have steam for Linux, say maybe?

-Bodai

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What would you have rather

What would you have rather liked to see as initial stretch goals?

Considering the scope of the Kickstarter (obtaining licenses for software and the engine) I agree that these stretch goals are a nice idea. They will give something to the community and fans without being so ambitious that they will distract MWM from what they need to do.

Thunder Glove, having the MacOS version of the game available at launch is one of the stretch goals. I recall that Doctor Tyche has mentioned that he'd like to have a Linux version of the game, although I wouldn't expect to see that until sometime after the game has launched.

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I am OVER THE MOON about

I am OVER THE MOON about having an Android character creator! Enough to make me open up my wallet! And get others involved!

Just FYI.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

What would you have rather liked to see as initial stretch goals?

This one is not too hard:

* More maps / powers / costume choices / cities / ATs / etc at the launch of the game
>>> Basically, make a list of all the features COX had, and list them out as goals that could be reached

* They now have the 3rd one as you mention for the Mac, that is a good one

* Hire X key team members/consultants full-time for X duration (with multiple tiers)
>>> Say you pay someone $100K for 1 year of undivided time, may be able to keep paying them after that
>>> This could be core components, art, music, etc.
>>> Maybe hire X member(s) of the original COX developers as consultants to help

* Support the Oculus Rift VR goggles (need dev kit)

* Purchase better forum software or license the better features of the one they are using

* Stand-alone version of the game for non-MMO play, say for a small group of friends, testing, etc.

* Server hardware / cloud space for testing game / bandwidth costs

* Documentary covering the creation process of the game

In summary, I prefer stretch goals that directly affect the quality, delivery time, or features of the core game vs. external add-ons that we can live without. That being said, if x1000s of people really want the android and ipad avatar creators, then sure.

-Bodai

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To me these ideas are outside

To me these ideas are outside the scope of this Kickstarter, at least in terms of terms of how much I expect they would cost and the amount asked for in the KS. Many of these are good ideas, however, for stretch goals if/when MWM does a continued funding drive (in RSI's Star Citizen style).

Besides, if the KS really takes off we'll see what else they already have planned for stretch goals. Some of your ideas may already be covered.

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I think a stand-alone / multi

I think a stand-alone / multi-player version is already a part of the groundworks for if the game ever sunsets. The users will always have the game as they have already stated.
It would be a bad idea (imho) to have a single / multi-player version at least for the first year or so since it would potentially take a good chunk of income away from the studio. Which we need them to keep maintaining, developing, and supporting the game.

They do have steam for linux for some time now. I think I have every game offered so far listed in the Linux section just to support it as they have been added. Obviously don't play many of them, but always want to give every incentive for them to push developers into the linux market. It has worked out well so far for us linux nerds. A lot of good titles in there now. Not just great indies. :)

It would be awesome if CoT made a linux client, but I won't gripe either way as long as I can just play!!

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Krnl_Mandrake wrote:
Krnl_Mandrake wrote:

They do have steam for linux for some time now. I think I have every game offered so far listed in the Linux section just to support it as they have been added. Obviously don't play many of them, but always want to give every incentive for them to push developers into the linux market. It has worked out well so far for us linux nerds. A lot of good titles in there now. Not just great indies. :)
It would be awesome if CoT made a linux client, but I won't gripe either way as long as I can just play!!

I spoke with our tech lead, he said we'd like to do a Linux version, it has been thought about, but we can't commit to it at this time.

As far as the stretch goals go, the intention was to have a couple of cheapish ones after the initial funding targets before getting into the heavy duty stuff.

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It may be easier/more

It may be easier/more practical to do a Linux port in the future - especially if the SteamBox does well.

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Bodai wrote:
Bodai wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
What would you have rather liked to see as initial stretch goals?

This one is not too hard:
* More maps / powers / costume choices / cities / ATs / etc at the launch of the game
>>> Basically, make a list of all the features COX had, and list them out as goals that could be reached
* They now have the 3rd one as you mention for the Mac, that is a good one
* Hire X key team members/consultants full-time for X duration (with multiple tiers)
>>> Say you pay someone $100K for 1 year of undivided time, may be able to keep paying them after that
>>> This could be core components, art, music, etc.
>>> Maybe hire X member(s) of the original COX developers as consultants to help
* Support the Oculus Rift VR goggles (need dev kit)
* Purchase better forum software or license the better features of the one they are using
* Stand-alone version of the game for non-MMO play, say for a small group of friends, testing, etc.
* Server hardware / cloud space for testing game / bandwidth costs
* Documentary covering the creation process of the game
In summary, I prefer stretch goals that directly affect the quality, delivery time, or features of the core game vs. external add-ons that we can live without. That being said, if x1000s of people really want the android and ipad avatar creators, then sure.
-Bodai

I realize that there are people out there on Macs who do game, I personally would have rathered some of the other points you mentioned before a Mac port though.
Say perhaps, more powers, more districts or even a certain # more of costumes available at launch.

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Re: Rezelius

Re: Rezelius

I have to agree with you. I don't have anything against Macs, but no matter how you slice it the demographics are low. Even today it occupies a single-digit market share, and then of those you need one that someone has purchased a discrete graphics card.

Cox added that much later after popular demand, *if* the game is successful enough then you drill down to that market later. In the meantime the Mac users can still use bootcamp or vmfusion, but would still need a graphics card.

Another person just questioned this as well:
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/why-have-osx-port

-Bodai

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Bodai wrote:
Bodai wrote:

Re: Rezelius
I have to agree with you. I don't have anything against Macs, but no matter how you slice it the demographics are low. Even today it occupies a single-digit market share, and then of those you need one that someone has purchased a discrete graphics card.
Cox added that much later after popular demand, *if* the game is successful enough then you drill down to that market later. In the meantime the Mac users can still use bootcamp or vmfusion, but would still need a graphics card.
Another person just questioned this as well:http://cityoftitans.com/forum/why-have-osx-port
-Bodai

Because there are not that many Mac MMOs, the word on the street is that market share for CoH was not single figures.

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Bodai
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Re: Minotaur

Re: Minotaur

Right, I am saying market share of Mac's vs. PC's in general. So, I am talking about the effect on the marketability of the game, not the ratio of players actually using one or the other in COX.

You know, maybe this forum could get a "polls" section at some point, put possible features up and have people vote on them.

-Bodai

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Bodai wrote:
Bodai wrote:

Re: Minotaur
Right, I am saying market share of Mac's vs. PC's in general. So, I am talking about the effect on the marketability of the game, not the ratio of players actually using one or the other in COX.
You know, maybe this forum could get a "polls" section at some point, put possible features up and have people vote on them.
-Bodai

The point being that if you know your core market is people that played CoH, and that relatively cheaply and easily you can satisfy 15-20% of that market, you will do that. Basically Mac users are more likely than PC users to buy this game if it runs well on a Mac because they have less choice.

Anyway, depending on what floats your boat, I think you may be more excited by the next stretch goal when it is announced (I have no idea when that will be).

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Oh man, I want those portable

Oh man, I want those portable character creators in ways that are probably illegal in most Southern states.

Well, that's not true. I only want the Android version. But ooooooh man do I want it...

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Bear in mind that CoH was the

Bear in mind that CoH was the only superhero MMO for Mac. If CoT has a native Mac version at launch, then its only direct competition could be the other Plan Z projects (VO, specifically; I don't know whether HaV has a Mac version planned).

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Well, looking forward to

Well, looking forward to future stretch goals... once we get past the one's we have.

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The stretch goals should

The stretch goals should enhance the project, not spawn sub-projects that are more or less unrelated to the main project. Having an Android/iOS is great and all but there are lots of us that don't have a fancy phone with internet on the phone stick to making the game these can be perks that come out as updates after we have a great new home and game to play.

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The character creator app is

The character creator app is a smart idea as an early goal imo. (I don't even own a smart phone)
1) it pushes the art department to turn out some cool stuff asap
2) it gives the art department direct feedback on the type of heroes/villains players will want to make, thus allowing them to see where some additions to types of clothing should be made first (ie: tons of people seem to really like the tabi boots.. lets make 2 more variations)
3) it allows for word of mouth to come with "hey look at this" in any social setting.
4) it gives people something to do while waiting for the pre pre pre alpha to lose a pre.. and another pre... and another pre... and closed beta stages... and well you get the picture.
5) instead of going: hey give us more money so you can see "this" in 5 years.... its "oh we are over our goal, here is a neat thingy to play around with while we get to work"

Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.

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graff wrote:
graff wrote:

The stretch goals should enhance the project, not spawn sub-projects that are more or less unrelated to the main project. Having an Android/iOS is great and all but there are lots of us that don't have a fancy phone with internet on the phone stick to making the game these can be perks that come out as updates after we have a great new home and game to play.

Providing the character creator as soon as possible was always a goal, that has been the intention for quite a while. Providing it on more platforms is exactly the sort of thing that should be a stretch goal. No, not everyone has a fancy phone or tablet, but a LOT of people do, and everyone else will be getting the widows version of the character creator. Not to mention, a bit of experience with the platform will be a good thing when the next "part" of the game is ready for us to play with.

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There's also the fact that

There's also the fact that seeing and playing around with a character creator on a mobile device is a great way to interest people in the game who might otherwise not participate.

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Steamtank wrote:
Steamtank wrote:

3) it allows for word of mouth to come with "hey look at this" in any social setting.

With the ubiquity of smartphones, this -- particularly if it will have the capability of showing the created characters in not just the power-activation poses (a la the power customization section of the CoH character editor) but in at least some of the regular emote poses, so that the user can get a feel for how the character would look in action.

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I think they should reveal

I think they should reveal their next stretch goal soon. The current ones aren't vary tantalizing to those of us who avoid Apple products.

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I avoid apple like the plague

I avoid apple like the plague, however I know there were a significant portion of CoH players who were on macs, not to mention it would help attract more new players into the fold.

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"I think they should reveal

"I think they should reveal their next stretch goal soon. The current ones aren't vary tantalizing to those of us who avoid Apple products."

I agree with this. Not looking down on the previous stretch goals though. I think that Minotaur said it best: there's a potential market in iOS and Mac users that has to be considered. More people playing this game, and more word out mouth is a GOOD thing.

That being said, they do need to list a stretch goal that's also more tantalizing for those that may not be that excited about the current ones, as sensible as they are. We need some shiny! :P

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Next stretch goal has been

Next stretch goal has been announced ...check it out!

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Once we get some video of

Once we get some video of actual content, even very preliminary content, there's a good chance that there will be another surge in backers. I know one person who's waiting to see some of MWM's work before committing any money. And that, obviously, means unlocking and reaching more stretch goals!

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Although there is no telling

Although there is no telling where Mac support will be in two years, I concur that it's best not to alienate customers and potential customers and to try to corner a niche market (especially with a product as superior as CoT promises to be)!

The more non-PC players the Devs can excite and tantalize, the more positive press and word-of-mouth advertising they'll get. That translates to a larger, more robust community -- which is a major win for Dev and player alike!

Go City of Tabbies team! :) What? What else would "CoT" stand for? Right? Of course right!

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Amerikatt wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:

Although there is no telling where Mac support will be in two years, I concur that it's best not to alienate customers and potential customers and to try to corner a niche market (especially with a product as superior as CoT promises to be)!
The more non-PC players the Devs can excite and tantalize, the more positive press and word-of-mouth advertising they'll get. That translates to a larger, more robust community -- which is a major win for Dev and player alike!
Go City of Tabbies team! :) What? What else would "CoT" stand for? Right? Of course right!

Exactly Katt- while I believe Apple is the coming of the Apocalypse, CoH was one of the FEW MMOs that even bothered with a direct OS friendly version. Did it run well.. no not always.. but the fact was, the old Devs made the effort and that translated into a sizable apple following.. Something any MMO should want.

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.......O_O

.......O_O

....I guess I'll have a coke..........

XD

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Kaxiya wrote:
Kaxiya wrote:

Next stretch goal has been announced ...check it out!

.........O_O

....I guess I'll have a coke.......

XD

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From my recent MWM blog post.

From my recent MWM blog post...

Hi, all, Zombie Man, here to address a question that keeps popping up, namely, why are the first three stretch goals so… shall we say… *other platform*… specific?

Well, let’s first start with the first two: porting the Avatar Builder (i.e., the character creator) to Android and iOS portables: So, remember, significantly before the game goes ‘Live’, we will be releasing a standalone module of the Avatar Builder. This will be a Windows app, and thus, available on Windows tablets. But you know, more people have Android or iOS tablets and handhelds than Windows devices. And so, in the interim between the release of the Avatar Builder and the full game, we anticipate that you, our eager fans, will be asking for the Avatar Builder to be available on their little pocket computer so that they can play with it all day long. We anticipate this because that’s what we want to do!

And that’s why we have the stretch goal of porting the Avatar Builder to the two most popular hand held platforms while we’re waiting for the full game to go Live.

So why don’t we put the money towards making the game go Live faster? It’s unlikely that more money is going to speed up the development process among volunteers, at least, not at this level of funding. We’d need millions, not just tens of thousands of dollars to speed up game production by hiring full time staffers. If that kind of funding came in, who knows, we might go for it. But for now, we plan to make the Avatar Builder as accessible as possible while waiting for the next stages of game development.

The next platform-specific stretch goal is a Mac version of City of Titans. Remember, our spiritual ancestor, City of Heroes, had a Mac version. Before we start adding stretch goals for game content, we need to stretch the number of players who can access the game. We don’t want to leave that community behind. Very few MMOs reach out to the Mac community, and doing so is what made City of Heroes so beloved, and hopefully will generate the same goodwill and dedicated fans for City of Titans.

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Zombie Man wrote:
Zombie Man wrote:

From my recent MWM blog post...
Hi, all, Zombie Man, here to address a question that keeps popping up, namely, why are the first three stretch goals so… shall we say… *other platform*… specific?
Well, let’s first start with the first two: porting the Avatar Builder (i.e., the character creator) to Android and iOS portables: So, remember, significantly before the game goes ‘Live’, we will be releasing a standalone module of the Avatar Builder. This will be a Windows app, and thus, available on Windows tablets. But you know, more people have Android or iOS tablets and handhelds than Windows devices. And so, in the interim between the release of the Avatar Builder and the full game, we anticipate that you, our eager fans, will be asking for the Avatar Builder to be available on their little pocket computer so that they can play with it all day long. We anticipate this because that’s what we want to do!
And that’s why we have the stretch goal of porting the Avatar Builder to the two most popular hand held platforms while we’re waiting for the full game to go Live.
So why don’t we put the money towards making the game go Live faster? It’s unlikely that more money is going to speed up the development process among volunteers, at least, not at this level of funding. We’d need millions, not just tens of thousands of dollars to speed up game production by hiring full time staffers. If that kind of funding came in, who knows, we might go for it. But for now, we plan to make the Avatar Builder as accessible as possible while waiting for the next stages of game development.
The next platform-specific stretch goal is a Mac version of City of Titans. Remember, our spiritual ancestor, City of Heroes, had a Mac version. Before we start adding stretch goals for game content, we need to stretch the number of players who can access the game. We don’t want to leave that community behind. Very few MMOs reach out to the Mac community, and doing so is what made City of Heroes so beloved, and hopefully will generate the same goodwill and dedicated fans for City of Titans.

Thank you ZM! My wife and I both use Mac's and really love the fact that we might be able to enjoy this game as so many did COH.

Looking forward to $500k+ in the stretch goals!

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How about Windows Mobile as a

How about Windows Mobile as a potential platform as well?

*raise hand* Yep, I am one of those people out there who actually does have a windows mobile phone.

Oh, and just for the curious, I know that you are saying that there will be a mac client as a stretch goal... is that also going to include the standalone character creator?

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Gangrel wrote:
Gangrel wrote:

How about Windows Mobile as a potential platform as well?
*raise hand* Yep, I am one of those people out there who actually does have a windows mobile phone.
Oh, and just for the curious, I know that you are saying that there will be a mac client as a stretch goal... is that also going to include the standalone character creator?

You know us windows phone users don't get nice things.

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Prof.Ravenwood
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Exactly. Like windows phones

Exactly. Like windows phones. :P (Just kidding).

To add on to what Zombie said: a developer friend of mine once said, "It doesn't matter how many doctors you have, the baby isn't going to come any faster."

And I think "City of Tabbies" is great! Maybe "City of Hedgies" as a stretch goal? :D

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I'm not sure the "stretch

I'm not sure the "stretch goal" aspect of the drive is taking the best route, generally.

You've already pointed out that the initial funding goal only covers the engine license and an initial software investment. So, instead of trying to increase the reward output, why not increase your proposed production investment? Find out what it would cost to outsource or license more material, and propose that instead of some additional "aura" or "costume" or "district" Just being able to invest a few thousand dollars in stock photo resources would make a huge difference in 2D art production time and quality, for instance, but would not equate to an extension of the game design.

Wouldn't backers prefer that kind of "stretch goal" to being offered ephemeral rewards and extensions? Knowing that additional funds are being utilized well would mean more than any number of promised features.

Maybe it just reflects a problem with the Kickstarter structure making everything look like a commercial transaction in which backers have to get some direct personal reward...

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One big thing from this is

One big thing from this is that it will be available to so many people, not just the ones playing the game. Its like free advertising in the app stores for all to download. Just think of the micro transactions they could make from this for people who may not be a traditional MMO gamer.

Mantic
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nofx242 wrote:
nofx242 wrote:

One big thing from this is that it will be available to so many people, not just the ones playing the game. Its like free advertising in the app stores for all to download. Just think of the micro transactions they could make from this for people who may not be a traditional MMO gamer.

If it is that potentially worthwhile, it should be done regardless of where the Kickstarter funding winds up. Perhaps I am not seeing where these extensions actually relate to the money; is some development package or library being purchased? Or is it just something to fill the "stretch goal" slot?

ScottyB
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Mantic wrote:
Mantic wrote:

If it is that potentially worthwhile, it should be done regardless of where the Kickstarter funding winds up. Perhaps I am not seeing where these extensions actually relate to the money; is some development package or library being purchased? Or is it just something to fill the "stretch goal" slot?

At least some of the money would be going to getting devices for testing. Perhaps the three best-selling Android tablets, an iPad 2, and an iPad 4. Maybe for each of the two or three devs most closely related to building from the Unreal project.

I agree that the stretch goals don't look as transparent as the rest of the funding break down. I have no idea if a different section of the page discusses it or not, either, because the page is so long. I read it once when the Kickstarter went live, and I'm not going through it again. I'm optimistic enough to expect MWM to use the funding wisely, but details like that, I think, could only inspire more trust from other backers / potential backers.

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Getting devices, dev toolkits

Getting devices, dev toolkits, sub-orbital missiles, maybe farming out some coding to an expert in the field, etc...

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I think at this point this

I think at this point this whole conversation is moot. The stretch goals are already there, and some of them have already been met, so it is a committed thing. I think even when I first posted, I would not have expected them to be taken down "your right, that was a silly idea..." style. So, that being said, I think the reasoning here applies to other potential stretch goals as well.

As I said, at no point am I saying that any of these stretch goals are bad ideas, I am only questioning the priority or order.

If having some of them means we draw a huge response (or funding) from iTunes and Google Play then I have my recipe for crow standing by. However, that is a marketing thing, and I think also stands a chance to work against you. Because in that demographic, if you put those out but the actual game is X months / years away, it takes away the instant gratification crowd. You might be better off waiting until the game is released if you want to use it as an advertising platform. Or at least closer to launch.

As far as the Macs go, this is my personal opinion. It just feels like we are picking out drapes before we even have a house (and expensive drapes at that).
I know a few people who own Macs, I know zero who play games on them (at least anything close to one played with mouse and keyboard). I am not refuting that there were CoX players who played from the Mac, they obviously got enough requests that they went and produced one. This is much easier to do when you already have a successful game and budget. If you are going to say that having the client at launch means it is available to X many more players, well yes, that statement is true if there is even 1 more. But show me a cost-benefit analysis of money spent vs. players gained. Every dollar spent on that is going to make 5% or less of your market happy. Every dollar spent on gaming features makes 100% of the market happy, or 95% if you didn't include the Mac users. And I wouldn't say don't come out with a Mac client ever, just not at launch.

In the last few years there is a popular belief that the PC (as in, "personal computer" including both Macs and Windows PCs) is in decline compared to tablets and phones. This makes the market for Mac PCs even that much smaller compared to everything else.

Also, at the end of the day the Windows PC is going to be the place where the best gaming experience will be had for a game like this. No other platform has the breadth of options for powerful graphics card(s), overclocked processors, and so on.

This last point also brings up a concern of mine. Would the Mac client effectively become a "lowest common denominator"? Where they hold back certain types of game features or capabilities because the Mac client can't do that, or the hardware platform isn't powerful enough, or it would take too long to add support, etc.? I can hear someone in favor of Macs already saying "no" or saying that a recent Powerbook has better graphics than X percent of PCs purchased. That's fine, but you can do some pretty amazing things with the Unreal engine and related tools. I have seen what happens when you tried to play COX on an under-powered or low powered PC. It's no fun playing a game like this when you have to turn all the settings down to the minimum, and lower the resolution, and you are still struggling to play.

Right now a decent MacBook Pro sufficient to have a good gaming experience is about $1800 (NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M) without an SSD, do you know how much of a Windows gaming PC I can build for that?

This does not mean Macs are bad, I love them myself. But use the right tool for the right job.

-Bodai

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Don't sweat the Mac port

Don't sweat the Mac port having any effect on anything you see in the game. The Unreal 3 game engine is complete in all such regards, and the biggest problem people seem to have working with it is not getting carried away playing with all that it can do (even Epic's own Unreal Tournament 3 often went overboard playing with bumps, spectacularity, reflections and noise effects).

The technical aspects that MWM will be developing are mostly related to gameplay and networking, not rendering or media processing. That's done already, and takes good advantage of high-end gaming hardware. Best $70k spent so far. The engine also already supports Mac OS X, so there is no need "porting" any of Epic's code.

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I want to also say that

I want to also say that anything and everything that we can get into the game at launch without compromising quality, we will. Maybe the new stretch goal explanations in the newest KS update will help reiterate the thoughts at the moment of what we hope to be able to do. Even if we do not meet these new stretch goals, however, it is possible for these things to make it into the first issues. We dearly want to get a fully realized game into everyone's hands from the start, but we are trying to be at least a little realistic with some of the things we will be able to include.

Sound Lead, Bullpen Writer

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Bodai wrote:
Bodai wrote:

This last point also brings up a concern of mine. Would the Mac client effectively become a "lowest common denominator"? Where they hold back certain types of game features or capabilities because the Mac client can't do that, or the hardware platform isn't powerful enough, or it would take too long to add support, etc.?
-Bodai

All Windows 7/8 PCs support DirectX 11; all Macs support OpenGL. Unreal keeps the feature set straight, and in the event that a feature doesn't have an equivalent on another platform (more an issue with iOS/Android than with Windows/Mac) then it uses a lower-quality substitute, but only on that platform's build. The Windows build doesn't get de-featured when the Android build can't render something the same way.

Bodai wrote:

I can hear someone in favor of Macs already saying "no" or saying that a recent Powerbook has better graphics than X percent of PCs purchased. That's fine, but you can do some pretty amazing things with the Unreal engine and related tools. I have seen what happens when you tried to play COX on an under-powered or low powered PC. It's no fun playing a game like this when you have to turn all the settings down to the minimum, and lower the resolution, and you are still struggling to play.
Right now a decent MacBook Pro sufficient to have a good gaming experience is about $1800 (NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M) without an SSD, do you know how much of a Windows gaming PC I can build for that?

Game developers list minimum CPU and GPU system requirements for their Mac versions just like they do for Windows games. An Asus VivoBook, Acer V5, Dell i15RM, and a 2012 MacBook Air are all sub-2GHz Core i5 with Intel HD 4000 graphics, and they would all need to lower their graphics settings to have a "smooth" experience for most games. And that's a batch of $600 Windows laptops (and a $1000 MacBook). Among Windows laptops these aren't even the weakest iGPUs available, but they're the weakest that most developers are willing to support.

Let's take Borderlands 2 as an example. It's an Unreal Engine 3 game, and there's a Mac version. It averages 25 FPS on most systems with HD 4000 graphics; MacBook Air closer to 23, and Acer closer to 27, according to Anandtech. BioShock Infinite (again, UE3 with a Mac version available) this title fares worse, most systems getting about 17FPS (the 2013 MacBook Air, with HD 5000 graphics, averages 20).

So, the hardware is capable of the same stuff (it's the same hardware), and Unreal Engine will handle the differences in rendering between DirectX, OpenGL, and the embedded versions for iOS and Android.

On a somewhat unrelated note, your continued use of the name PowerBook is making me nostalgic for the time when Macs and PCs actually were different hardware platforms.

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Re: ScottyB

Re: ScottyB

I am not really talking about what the OS will support in so far as DX11 or OpenGL, nor even what the game engine will do in terms of "compensating" for differing capabilities. It is not a magic wand, and as you say, they have to set minimum requirements. If they set their "minimum" to that of a windows or mac laptop with an Intel iGPU, that is setting the bar very low indeed.

I have an Intel Core i7-4770K in my desktop, and by iGPU standards you might consider it's HD 4600 "capable". I actually do use it for standard windows tasks to save power, but I can't take it seriously for games. When I played COX I was playing at 2560x1600 with all details at max, and averaging 50-60 fps, partially because the engine was old, I don't think it would be able to do that if I was playing a game that was taking full advantage of UE3 or UE4.

What I am saying is, the developers may limit "global" things that the game engine can't necessarily dumb-down for the low end clients. Maybe map size, number of players, I don't know. But, if they set the minimum to needing a discrete NVIDIA or AMD GPU (regardless of platform), then that would make me feel better.

-Bodai

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On the one hand, I too would

On the one hand, I too would like to see a discrete GPU on the minimum system requirements. It makes it easier for support (community or official) to make recommendations, and helps to set more realistic expectations for incoming players.

On the other hand, if a hardware survey of the backers reveals a lot of older or weaker hardware (perhaps combined with a question like, "How likely are you to upgrade or replace your machine in the next two years?") then it would be surprising if the support base was thrown under the bus.

I suppose without that information, it would be hard to make a realistic and informed decision. That, or if the designers state their goals on this subject.