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Summoned objects - obstructions

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.Foresight
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Summoned objects - obstructions

I know details of combat powers haven't been discussed much, and it may already be designed in a way that it isn't even an issue. I thought this might be something to mention before it gets too far along just in case since many games leave longstanding issues in place from launch throughout the entirety of the game's lifespan.

I've seen that there are a few power previews of summoned walls/obstructions to block enemies. I recall several abilities in ToG that were almost never used in a team setting (or ever in some cases) for being more of a hindrance than helpful and I'm wondering how visually or physically obstructive these summoned objects are to allied players and if they'll immediately become a nuisance.

ToG didn't have summoned stationary objects that I can think of at the moment, but some of the more taboo abilities they had when it came to team play are ones like Dimension Shift, Black Hole and Detention Field (making enemies intangible and unaffected by attacks), Phantom Army (Invulnerable summons that generate a lot of aggro and run all over the place, messing with tank aggro control and spreading enemies out), or really any aoe knockback ability (spreading enemies out).

In Warframe, one of the playable frames, Atlas, has a summoned wall to block enemies. Fortunately, allies can walk through it completely unimpeded but I had seen several complaints over the many years I played that about it visually blocking players' line of sight in certain maps. Though, that is a shooter so it doesn't use lock-on targeting for attacks like a traditional mmo, but I wanted to make sure visual and physical targeting won't be an issue with these obstructions as well as our physical movement.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Redlynne
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.Foresight wrote:
.Foresight wrote:

In Warframe, one of the playable frames, Atlas, has a summoned wall to block enemies. Fortunately, allies can walk through it completely unimpeded

In a superheroic context, that sounds an awful lot like ... a Force Field.
You can't attack us, but we can attack you.

I still keep thinking one awesome way to implement Force Field type powers would be as a Range debuff when shooting through a hostile Force Field.
So if you have a power that usually has a range of 80 yards ... but if you're attacking into a Force Field bubble, the range parameter check for In Range? (Y/N) basically applies a 2x modifier to the "actual range" to $Target before answering the question. So instead of being able to attack from 80 yards away, you can only attack from 40 yards away (or less) instead. In other words, the Force Field forces opponents to draw in closer in order to "get past" the range debuffing of the Force Field. And with enhancement this modifier can be increased (to 3x or even 4x) to force opponents to close range in order to be within range to attack.

Note that such a system makes attacks from long range ineffective, making gameplay with a Force Field bubbler qualitatively and quantitatively different than simply modifying Hit/Miss chances via a Defense type game mechanic (or a damage reduction by Resistance type of game mechanic).


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Huckleberry
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What an intriguing concept!

What an intriguing concept!

Redlynne wrote:

I still keep thinking one awesome way to implement Force Field type powers would be as a Range debuff when shooting through a hostile Force Field.
So if you have a power that usually has a range of 80 yards ... but if you're attacking into a Force Field bubble, the range parameter check for In Range? (Y/N) basically applies a 2x modifier to the "actual range" to $Target before answering the question. So instead of being able to attack from 80 yards away, you can only attack from 40 yards away (or less) instead. In other words, the Force Field forces opponents to draw in closer in order to "get past" the range debuffing of the Force Field. And with enhancement this modifier can be increased (to 3x or even 4x) to force opponents to close range in order to be within range to attack.

Note that such a system makes attacks from long range ineffective, making gameplay with a Force Field bubbler qualitatively and quantitatively different than simply modifying Hit/Miss chances via a Defense type game mechanic (or a damage reduction by Resistance type of game mechanic).

I agree that it would change the flow combat, improve it even. I can see ranged characters changing targets once they realize they'd have to get dangerously close to the enemy if they want to keep sniping at her and other interesting complications that make combat more interesting.

I could totally see this as an ability for someone with gravity or space-shifting powers. Or maybe a mad film director creating a Dolly Zoom.


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Redlynne
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The trick would be to allow

The trick would be to allow you to attack from "too far away" ... thereby "wasting" your endurance and animation time attacking for no effect ... rather than getting a message telling you that you're out of range. It then becomes incumbent upon the Player to "figure it out" and close range enough to be able to "reach" into the Force Field zone.


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.Foresight
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I do love your idea, but for

I do love your idea, but for this specific thought I'm more worried about abilities hindering allies and becoming universally skipped for the next decade of the game's life as seen in ToG.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

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I think the largest here is

I think the largest here is Force Control; and yeah I agree, I am also curious as to how this will pan out.

Weirdly it seems the first description of FC said it would have multiple powers based around creating obstructions; and according to the tooltips in the Character Generator, the one displayed a long time ago seems to be the only one in that set. TBH, Force Control seems a bit missmashed but I dont have any context of how it all actually works of course.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

What an intriguing concept!

Redlynne wrote:

I still keep thinking one awesome way to implement Force Field type powers would be as a Range debuff when shooting through a hostile Force Field.
So if you have a power that usually has a range of 80 yards ... but if you're attacking into a Force Field bubble, the range parameter check for In Range? (Y/N) basically applies a 2x modifier to the "actual range" to $Target before answering the question. So instead of being able to attack from 80 yards away, you can only attack from 40 yards away (or less) instead. In other words, the Force Field forces opponents to draw in closer in order to "get past" the range debuffing of the Force Field. And with enhancement this modifier can be increased (to 3x or even 4x) to force opponents to close range in order to be within range to attack.

Note that such a system makes attacks from long range ineffective, making gameplay with a Force Field bubbler qualitatively and quantitatively different than simply modifying Hit/Miss chances via a Defense type game mechanic (or a damage reduction by Resistance type of game mechanic).

I agree that it would change the flow combat, improve it even. I can see ranged characters changing targets once they realize they'd have to get dangerously close to the enemy if they want to keep sniping at her and other interesting complications that make combat more interesting.

I could totally see this as an ability for someone with gravity or space-shifting powers. Or maybe a mad film director creating a Dolly Zoom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WtSu2wQBhM

not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM

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Dolly Zoom and the Zoom

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

I think the largest here is Force Control; and yeah I agree, I am also curious as to how this will pan out.

Weirdly it seems the first description of FC said it would have multiple powers based around creating obstructions; and according to the tooltips in the Character Generator, the one displayed a long time ago seems to be the only one in that set. TBH, Force Control seems a bit missmashed but I dont have any context of how it all actually works of course.

Force control has 3 actual summoned objects to perform functions within the set.

Originally, it would have had more, or if them being mass containment - an AoE version of encapsulate. But I decided they may be taking things “too far”.

As to the concern about being a nuisance to other players, there are ways around that.

Some of the “walls” aren’t obstructions but more about providing “area denial tools”.

Dime soon Shift in the told game could be useful if used right. Especially later when it was changed to a timed toggle. IMOP Black Hole had the same application applied to it.

Another thing to consider is that not every power should be a “must pick” power that is used in every instance it js recharged. It should be ok to design, and for players to pick, powers which have situational use than can be beneficial if done at the right time.

Tier 9 ranged attacks or protection powers are good examples of this in this game. There are some lower tier powers which can be extremely good in the right circumstance but may not be “always useful”. I’m ok with that. Though I have tried to make every power interesting and useful in each set where hopefully. A player has a hard time choosing to take the power over another from say a tertiary set.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Some of the “walls” aren’t obstructions but more about providing “area denial tools”.

Obstructions, area denial tools; potayto, potahto...

Or are you thinking, This "wall" can be walked right through, if you're willing to take the damage?

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Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Some of the “walls” aren’t obstructions but more about providing “area denial tools”.

Obstructions, area denial tools; potayto, potahto...

Or are you thinking, This "wall" can be walked right through, if you're willing to take the damage?

I think they mean more in the nature of: "You can't touch this!", but WE can!!. Enemies can't enter a specific zone but team members can. If the do try to enter there will be debuffs applied.

Edit: I forgot that there is also the: You can't fire in but we can fire out scenario.

Super M.
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Thanks for the followup and

Thanks for the followup and reply!

Yeah, Im just more confused at the focus of the set, again based on my VERY VERY limited description so Im not surprised I dont understand. It seems to have less hard control than gravity, and Im just not seeing its "focus" on how its locking down groups of enemies. BUT Im sure itll make more sense once I know more.

Thank you again for your engagement.

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When I re-cast my Gravity

When I re-cast my Gravity Controller in another game, I gave him 'gravity bullets' for stun and impact, but then 'enhanced' them with Nails. Gravity Nail-Gun. But his most damaging attack was nano-black-holes.

I'm seriously looking forward to 'real' control powers. In most games, 'Control' is considered OP and 'unfair'. Since when are we being 'fair' to the foe? The more thoroughly we can 'arrest' them, the more 'fair' it will be to everyone.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

In most games, 'Control' is considered OP and 'unfair'. Since when are we being 'fair' to the foe? The more thoroughly we can 'arrest' them, the more 'fair' it will be to everyone.

No player has ever considered Crowd Control powers to be "overpowered" or "unfair" when they are used against NPC MOBs. Until NPCs start to complain about it (presumably after the AI singularity) that's not going to be the problem here. The problem is when CC powers are used against other players in PvP and if the game is heavy-handed about it allows players to "perma-hold" other players without a good chance to break-free.

It sounds like CoT is going to try to make CC powers more of a "spectrum of effects" rather than a binary on-off situation. That way it'll be harder for players to perma-hold other players 100%. The question of course is whether that scheme will make CC powers "underpowered" at least as far as being effective against NPCs goes.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Thanks for the followup and reply!

Yeah, Im just more confused at the focus of the set, again based on my VERY VERY limited description so Im not surprised I dont understand. It seems to have less hard control than gravity, and Im just not seeing its "focus" on how its locking down groups of enemies. BUT Im sure itll make more sense once I know more.

Thank you again for your engagement.

Different sets have different mechanics. Some are more involved than others, while some are simpler creating an ease of use. Gravity as it base, doesn't have more "hard control" that is say effects like holds and disorients which take away the actions of enemies than Force Control does.

However, Gravity does get additional effects, some of which provide additional controls if a target is affected by a Gravity Well. There are only a couple of powers in the set that generate the well. The first 2 powers provide a gravity well, but only when used with a certain momentum threshold. Then you have to use another power within the duration to get the additional effect. Another of Grav's powers provides a gravity well automatically, but it has a longer recharge time.

Force Control is more straight forward in its application. While Gravity has more single target powers, it has to leverage its use of creating gravity wells to get more area effect controls going. Force control actually does provide more area effects of different varieties. They offer different ways to play basically.


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