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MultipleSpecs

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Super M.
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MultipleSpecs

I remember at one point there was a mention that characters could have multiple specs; staying in same Archetype, but going so far as potentially changing different power sets.

Is this still the plan?

Is there any more information available about this?

Will this be at release, and when will the "first" one be available, character level/lifetime wise?

Tannim222
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Each character will have

Each character will have optional builds they will unlock. What those optional builds will allow us for a different Secondary Set and Mastery Sets to be used. This included the different Specifications once those become available.

New Specifications are slated for post-launch.


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That would be interesting. I

That would be interesting. I guess it just depends on their plan for longevity.

I've made a ton of alts in the old game, and thematically that worked better with the costumes and biographies i made for the toons. But my ideal situation was in FFXIV where every character could unlock and play every class, and you just had to level up each class individually but all on the same character.

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This sounds like a good set

This sounds like a good set up if I'm understanding correctly.

So you would only need one Gravity character (for example), but could have alternate specs for the secondary sets on that character.

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Super M.
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.Foresight wrote:
.Foresight wrote:

This sounds like a good set up if I'm understanding correctly.

So you would only need one Gravity character (for example), but could have alternate specs for the secondary sets on that character.

Well to be specific, you would need only gravity Operator; and then yes you could turn that one operator into various secondary sets / diferent specs including Engineer/Director/Executor.

Though as I understand it there are only a limited number of additional builds available, so you might still want more than one, just depend on concept.

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I definitely plan for a

I definitely plan for a Superspeed aesthetic character as Stalwart, and am excited I can have Super Agility/Fighting Prowess as well as Super Agility/Super Strength (lots of knockups plus a charge).

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I believe the plan is for a

I think the plan is for a very small number of alternate builds, so that you could have a solo and a group build, at least. What levels things unlock at is still preliminary, I believe, but I wouldn't expect a lot of build slots. So if you want a lot of versions, you'll probably need to use additional character slots.

Back on the old game, I did five archetype variants of one villain character, but they were rather distinct from each other except for the character model, and their backstory implied they were alternate universe variants. Or clones. Or something else, depended on which one you looked at the writeup on. They weren't particularly interested in telling people their life stories, anyway.

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Current plan is to allow 2

Current plan is to allow 2 builds at start.
One for PvE and the other is for PvP. You unlock 2 alternate builds at various levels.

Keep in mind that things may change.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Current plan is to allow 2 builds at start.
One for PvE and the other is for PvP. You unlock 2 alternate builds at various levels.

Keep in mind that things may change.

Is that a build useable only IN pvp mode? Or just one that you have access to, and its general purpose is for pvp, assuming people participate in pvp?

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Super M.][quote=Tannim222
Tannim222 wrote:

Current plan is to allow 2 builds at start.
One for PvE and the other is for PvP. You unlock 2 alternate builds at various levels.

Keep in mind that things may change.

So just to be crystal clear are you saying the current plan would allow a level-capped character to have 4 builds to work with?

Super M. wrote:

Is that a build useable only IN pvp mode? Or just one that you have access to, and its general purpose is for pvp, assuming people participate in pvp?

Back in TOG the "alternate builds" were not designated to only be usable in PvE or PvP so I would assume the same for CoT. Frankly it would likely be easier to implement NOT requiring that kind of limitation. Without limitation people could use those builds for whatever they wanted regardless if they PvP'd or not.

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Tannim222
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The PvP build is specific for

The PvP build is specific for PvP use. It is predicated upon having a PvP phase of the entire world map.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

The PvP build is specific for PvP use. It is predicated upon having a PvP phase of the entire world map.

I get that your ultimate goal is to have a "Mirror, Mirror" like alternate PvP phase of the entire world and that does sound cool.

I would just question the idea of forcing any of our "alternate" builds to being locked into either PvP or PvE. We all know that at best you're only going to have maybe 10-20% of your playerbase even try PvP much less want to dedicate alternate builds to it. And considering that the two "unlockable" alternate builds are not going to be dedicated solely to PvP why make ANY of them dedicated to either PvE or PvP?

As I alluded to wouldn't it seriously be easier if you simply allowed alternate builds to be usable anywhere for anything? The only reason I'd see that you would "require" a PvP build was if you were going to force us to switch to a designated PvP build while PvPing. Will ALL alternate builds have to be locked either for PvE or PvP but not both?

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Tannim222
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A dedicated PvP build will be

A dedicated PvP build will be available so any player doesn’t have to “sacrifice” their starting build or any of their unlocks or builds for PvP.

Any unlocked build can be used anywhere. The PvP only build is kept purely for PvP, otherwise we wouldn’t provide it at all.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

A dedicated PvP build will be available so any player doesn’t have to “sacrifice” their starting build or any of their unlocks or builds for PvP.

Any unlocked build can be used anywhere. The PvP only build is kept purely for PvP, otherwise we wouldn’t provide it at all.

I understand the idea of giving us a "free second build slot" so that we can have one for PvP from the very beginning without "sacrificing" our starting build. My point continues to be why does that "free second build slot" have to be locked into being a "PvP only" build? Why couldn't you just give us a "free second build slot" from the very beginning to be used for anything we want?

Or to ask the question even more simply why not give every starting character two default build slots to be usable any way we want? What's wrong with that idea? How could it be unbalanced and/or overpowered for a level one character to have two different builds? It's not like those builds could be radically different from each other given that even having "multiple builds" doesn't really mean much to characters who are under say level 15-20 anyway.

Perhaps if you actually gave us some more information about this your reasoning on this would make more sense. Is there are minimum level to even engage in PvP? Is it level 1, 5, 10 or something else? And what are the level thresholds you're expecting to give us the extra two build slots? Would those come in at 20 and 40, 25 and 50, or some other levels?

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If I may, I think the

If I may, I think the rationale is not in the beginning levels but at the end, every character gets 3 builds plus a PvP build. If that PvP build were allowed to be a PvE build also, then players would have to make a decision to either have a PvP or have 4 PvE builds. Creating a conflict. By budgeting one of those to be purely PvP, the conflict disappears and everyone is free to try PvP if they want without fear of sacrificing a fourth PvE build.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

If I may, I think the rationale is not in the beginning levels but at the end, every character gets 3 builds plus a PvP build. If that PvP build were allowed to be a PvE build also, then players would have to make a decision to either have a PvP or have 4 PvE builds. Creating a conflict. By budgeting one of those to be purely PvP, the conflict disappears and everyone is free to try PvP if they want without fear of sacrificing a fourth PvE build.

I guess I'm continuing to not understand why there would be a "conflict" if a player did not have a "dedicated PvP" build for PvP.

When a player creates a build that is "intended" to be optimized for PvP there's really nothing about it that can ONLY work in a PvP environment. It's effectively just a "build" like any other. The only thing that makes it a "PvP build" is that the player CALLS it a PvP build and INTENDS to use it for PvP. It's not a PvP build from the POV of the game itsself - the game doesn't care either way.

The ultimate point is that the game is not going to strictly categorize any build as being "strictly PvE" or "strictly PvP". Back in TOG a player could make a build and use that build ANYWHERE regardless if it was actually optimized/geared for anything in particular.

I'm sorry but I'm currently not seeing any rational reason for why any build in this game must "locked" so that it can only be used in a PvE situation or a PvP situation. Perhaps if Tannim could actually explain why that might be the case then my question here would be answered.

P.S. I often had characters back in TOG that were so well built that I could go back and forth between PvE and PvP without switching builds and I could kick a huge amount of ass in PvP with my supposedly "non-PvP" build. I simply don't like the idea that any build would have to be strictly dedicated to one arbitrary function or another by design.

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Lothic, you are surely

Lothic, you are surely experienced playing MMO and I assumed you must have understood the reasons why PvP builds are different from PvE builds. But by your own admission you don't, so I'll have to lay it out for you. (yes, you cited your personal data point of one)

Typically, PvP is dominated by control abilities. Stuns, interrupts, locks and knockbacks are far more important in PvP than they are in PvE. There are several reasons for this, but the primary reason is because players if equivalent level are far more deadly than NPCs of equivalent level. So trying to out-damage an opponent will fail if you get stunned or locked up. The best way to survive is to prevent your enemy from damaging you in the first place, so to speak. Typical NPCs on the PvE side of things will rarely never have control powers on par with another player. Nobody likes to be stun-locked to death. So to ensure players don't have unfun experiences, this explains why most games have much abbreviated control durations in PvP than in PvE. This brings up the secondary reason for why PvP builds are typically different than PvE builds: Rules differences. To ensure a more enjoyable experience for all players in PvP, many of the powers that make players feel like masters in PvE have to be toned down against other players. The third reason is that PvP is the most dangerous game which requires specific build combinations and teamwork strategies often tailored for specific opponent builds on a case by case basis. A PvP player who does not tweak his or her team, strategies and build for specific opponents is a lazy PvP player.

Put all together and you have a different set of stimuli for PvP build design than you do for PvE build design. Remember that even with the same suite of powers, the use of enhancements, refinements and masteries can make a huge difference in performance and playstyle.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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I'm not arguing why a player

Don't be obtuse Huckleberry. You're better than that. ;)

I'm not arguing why a player would want to make a build that's "optimized" for either PvE or PvP. I'm arguing why the game should care if ANY build I make is optimized for either PvP or PvE. Is this question really THAT difficult to understand?

Tannim is implying that the "free build" we get could only be used while in PvP. Why?

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What CoH did or didn’t do has

What CoH did or didn’t do has almost ZERO bearing on how it why we do anything for THIS game.

It’s at the point where I practically ignore any comparisons to the old game at this point.

We are limiting the total number of possible PvE builds to 3.

1 PvP build so PvE players don’t have to “sacrifice” their PvE builds.

It also gives us a way to, if we have to, change core functions of mechanics for PvP that won’t affect PvE builds at all. It is something we have and are striving to avoid but also understand it MIGHT happen. If core functions change they can drastically have an affect how a PvE build works and it could possibly make for a very poor PvP build.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What CoH did or didn’t do has almost ZERO bearing on how it why we do anything for THIS game.

It’s at the point where I practically ignore any comparisons to the old game at this point.

*sigh*

TOG allowed players to freely decide what their builds were going to be "optimized" for. Apparently you're making sure CoT is going to be LESS capable than that by forcing builds to be "PvP only" or "PvE only". So much for progress...

Tannim222 wrote:

We are limiting the total number of possible PvE builds to 3.

1 PvP build so PvE players don’t have to “sacrifice” their PvE builds.

Arbitrary limits... Why?

Tannim222 wrote:

It also gives us a way to, if we have to, change core functions of mechanics for PvP that won’t affect PvE builds at all. It is something we have and are striving to avoid but also understand it MIGHT happen. If core functions change they can drastically have an affect how a PvE build works and it could possibly make for a very poor PvP build.

Ah... finally the actual answer for why this game apparently needs the hardwired PvE/PvP build types.

As I feared you MIGHT end up with a situation where your PvE environment and your PvP environment are so radically different that the game mechanics between them effectively behave like two completely different games. Well based on the lessons from HISTORY from that other game you like to PRETEND doesn't exist you're going to have people screaming bloody murder at you if you allow the differences between PvP and PvE to become so vast that players MUST use completely different dedicated builds in order to be competitive. Just saying...

Did you ever wonder why PvP was never really all that popular back in TOG? Of course you didn't because for you TOG doesn't exist. It wasn't all that popular back in TOG precisely because they could never get the PvP environment to work 100% identically to the PvE environment. I don't really blame TOG for that failure - it's not like Paragon Studios actually had a snowball's chance in hell of making that work in the first place.

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Every MMO I've ever played

Every MMO I've ever played has abilities work differently in PvP vs PvE. It's the smart thing to do, especially in a game that has any control abilities.

Since your abilities will work different in the different environments, it makes sense you should have a build for that different environment. If you never PvP, you'll never need that 4th build is all.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Every MMO I've ever played has abilities work differently in PvP vs PvE. It's the smart thing to do, especially in a game that has any control abilities.

Sure... as I pointed out Paragon Studios never really had a chance to make it work any better than any other game in that regard.

But honestly if you think about it providing "multiple build slots" is really only a Band-Aid fix to this universal MMORPG problem. It's basically an admission that the game Devs couldn't fully balance their game so they let the players change their builds to account for the unique environments. *shrugs*

warlocc wrote:

Since your abilities will work different in the different environments, it makes sense you should have a build for that different environment. If you never PvP, you'll never need that 4th build is all.

Again I'm not against having multiple build slots or players creating builds that are optimized for PvP, PvE or whatever.

I'm just arguing against the idea of forcing a build slot to ONLY BE USABLE in one type of game environment. Why not give players an extra free build slot at character creation and LET THE PLAYER decide if they want to use that slot for PvP, PvE or anything else. Truly guys - is what I'm asking for here really so impossible to understand?

Basically you're proposing the following scheme:

    First build slot - usable anywhere for anything
    Second build slot - usable only in PvP
    Third build slot - usable anywhere for anything
    Fourth build slot - usable anywhere for anything

And I'm proposing the following scheme:

    First build slot - usable anywhere for anything
    Second build slot - usable anywhere for anything
    Third build slot - usable anywhere for anything
    Fourth build slot - usable anywhere for anything

See the obvious difference? Under my scheme the game doesn't have to check whether a certain build is being used in the 'right' environment. Any build slot could be used in ANY environment.

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Lothic it has been said more

Lothic it has been said more than once and you have to have delivberately missed it by now. it could not have been said more clearly.

Players are given three PvE builds. To allow players to play in PvP, a build is provided for that as well. Otherwise players would have to sacrifice one of their existing PvE builds to do so. So whether it is three PvE builds, 4 PvE builds, or 24 PvE builds, all PvE players will have the same number whether they play PvP or not. No PvE player should have to reduce their PvE builds in order to play PvP. That's it. It doesn't get an simpler than that.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic it has been said more than once and you have to have delivberately missed it by now. it could not have been said more clearly.

Players are given three PvE builds. To allow players to play in PvP, a build is provided for that as well. Otherwise players would have to sacrifice one of their existing PvE builds to do so. So whether it is three PvE builds, 4 PvE builds, or 24 PvE builds, all PvE players will have the same number whether they play PvP or not. No PvE player should have to reduce their PvE builds in order to play PvP. That's it. It doesn't get an simpler than that.

Having four build slots that could be used for ANYTHING is the simplest scenario possible here.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Lothic it has been said more than once and you have to have delivberately missed it by now. it could not have been said more clearly.

Players are given three PvE builds. To allow players to play in PvP, a build is provided for that as well. Otherwise players would have to sacrifice one of their existing PvE builds to do so. So whether it is three PvE builds, 4 PvE builds, or 24 PvE builds, all PvE players will have the same number whether they play PvP or not. No PvE player should have to reduce their PvE builds in order to play PvP. That's it. It doesn't get an simpler than that.

Having four build slots that could be used for ANYTHING is the simplest scenario possible here.

i understand you. i will never pvp. i would much rather they have us choose what the slot will be and they can charge to change it later if they want.

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slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Having four build slots that could be used for ANYTHING is the simplest scenario possible here.

i understand you. i will never pvp. i would much rather they have us choose what the slot will be and they can charge to change it later if they want.

Well the beauty of "having four build slots that could be used for ANYTHING" is that a player could chose to have any of the following combinations of builds:

  • 4 PvE
  • 3 PvE, 1 PvP
  • 2 PvE, 2 PvP
  • 1 PvE, 3 PvP
  • 4 PvP

Builds should be for whatever purpose the PLAYER wants to use them for, not to be arbitrarily locked into being "only PvP" or "only PvE".

I know Tannim's not going to bother to listen to me but I would suggest characters get two build slots at level 1, a third at level 25 and a fourth at level 50.

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You're point is well made.

You're point is well made. But to make a player choose to gimp their PvE builds just so they can play PvP is giving them an incentive NOT to try PvP. It is obvious that is all MWM is trying to do: give players the freedom to try PvP without having to compromise thier ability to play PvE. I don't believe you still fail to see that, so you must understand it but are deliberately disagreeing with that intent.

Perhaps instead of just one build for PvP they should provide three builds for PvP as well. That way everyone gets the full three builds for PvE and the full three builds for PvP.

As an aside, however, I can understand why they thought PvP would ever only need one build. this is because they only designed the PvP side to be a free-for-all in which anyone can fight anyone. So the various builds one would need for solo and cooperative play in the PvE world would be wasted on the PvP side of things. On the other hand, I'm sure a PvP player could justify different builds for different opponents and for solo versus team combat; so there probably is a reason to make three full builds for the PvP side as well.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What CoH did or didn’t do has almost ZERO bearing on how it why we do anything for THIS game.

It’s at the point where I practically ignore any comparisons to the old game at this point.

I don't care about multiple builds and am unlikely to use them, but this statement causes me some concern in a general sense. The Kickstarter for this game promised to make a spiritual successor to the old game, and it was based on that idea that we contributed. Obviously that's a vague term when it comes to how similar to the old game CoT should be, but I'd argue that 'almost zero' doesn't really qualify as a spiritual successor. Don't get me wrong: I am really looking forward to some of the aspects that we will know will be different, so I'm not looking for a copy -- but if the old game now has almost zero bearing on CoT, that could produce something that has a very different feel, and that's not what we were promised at all.

I hope this statement was just a bit of hyperbole arising from the frustration of dealing with difficult forum conversation. If so, no harm no foul.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

You're point is well made. But to make a player choose to gimp their PvE builds just so they can play PvP is giving them an incentive NOT to try PvP. It is obvious that is all MWM is trying to do: give players the freedom to try PvP without having to compromise thier ability to play PvE. I don't believe you still fail to see that, so you must understand it but are deliberately disagreeing with that intent.

Perhaps instead of just one build for PvP they should provide three builds for PvP as well. That way everyone gets the full three builds for PvE and the full three builds for PvP.

As an aside, however, I can understand why they thought PvP would ever only need one build. this is because they only designed the PvP side to be a free-for-all in which anyone can fight anyone. So the various builds one would need for solo and cooperative play in the PvE world would be wasted on the PvP side of things. On the other hand, I'm sure a PvP player could justify different builds for different opponents and for solo versus team combat; so there probably is a reason to make three full builds for the PvP side as well.

or, simply have four slots that we can choose to be either pvp or pve. individually, of course. not all locked into one or the other. that way, it is our choice.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What CoH did or didn’t do has almost ZERO bearing on how it why we do anything for THIS game.

It’s at the point where I practically ignore any comparisons to the old game at this point.

*sigh*

TOG allowed players to freely decide what their builds were going to be "optimized" for. Apparently you're making sure CoT is going to be LESS capable than that by forcing builds to be "PvP only" or "PvE only". So much for progress...

Tannim222 wrote:

We are limiting the total number of possible PvE builds to 3.

1 PvP build so PvE players don’t have to “sacrifice” their PvE builds.

Arbitrary limits... Why?

Tannim222 wrote:

It also gives us a way to, if we have to, change core functions of mechanics for PvP that won’t affect PvE builds at all. It is something we have and are striving to avoid but also understand it MIGHT happen. If core functions change they can drastically have an affect how a PvE build works and it could possibly make for a very poor PvP build.

Ah... finally the actual answer for why this game apparently needs the hardwired PvE/PvP build types.

As I feared you MIGHT end up with a situation where your PvE environment and your PvP environment are so radically different that the game mechanics between them effectively behave like two completely different games. Well based on the lessons from HISTORY from that other game you like to PRETEND doesn't exist you're going to have people screaming bloody murder at you if you allow the differences between PvP and PvE to become so vast that players MUST use completely different dedicated builds in order to be competitive. Just saying...

Did you ever wonder why PvP was never really all that popular back in TOG? Of course you didn't because for you TOG doesn't exist. It wasn't all that popular back in TOG precisely because they could never get the PvP environment to work 100% identically to the PvE environment. I don't really blame TOG for that failure - it's not like Paragon Studios actually had a snowball's chance in hell of making that work in the first place.

We place hard limits on a lot of aspects of design. Why 23 combat powers, why 4 augments per power? Why a limited number of possible Tertiary Sets allowed? Why a certain limit of alternate builds?

They all have one or multiple reasons to exist.

I didn’t say ToG doesn’t existZ I said that comparisons to ToG at this point are virtually useless.

We have poured over terabytes of data on ToG. We have gone though old dev postsC forum discussions, analyzed and disseminated mechanics and systems.

There ar things that the unreal engine can afford us the capability of doing that ToG could never dream of doing. Things that we want to apply for this game. There are also certain factors that require us to do things differently than ToG did. There are designs that differ so greatly that trying to adhere to what some old game did just won’t work that way.

I also did t day we HAVE to have a separate PvP design, only that we recognize the POSSIBILITY that we MIGHT have to go that route. Having a distinct PvP and PvE build afford us a way of doing so that allows us to do so where a PvE build may not function “properly” for PvP.

You get one starting PvE and PvP build and can unlock 2 more through play and use them as you desire. Each type of the game PvE or PvP gets to have 3 total possible builds.

You don’t like it. That is your right to feel that way.

But I’m not goin to engage with you if you want to continue with placing words in my mouth so you can be argumentative just because you don’t like somebody or it’s not how the old game did it.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

You're point is well made. But to make a player choose to gimp their PvE builds just so they can play PvP is giving them an incentive NOT to try PvP. It is obvious that is all MWM is trying to do: give players the freedom to try PvP without having to compromise thier ability to play PvE. I don't believe you still fail to see that, so you must understand it but are deliberately disagreeing with that intent.

I do not understand how or why any player would knowingly (or could by accident) be able to "gimp" themselves one way or the other with these builds under any circumstances. You've erected a Strawman here but for the sake of exercise I'll happily tear it down bit-by-bit.

For the purpose of conversation let's assume (since Tannim has not specifically confirmed) that all characters get two build slots at character creation (level 1). Let's also take for granted (again unconfirmed) that players are going to be allowed to engage in PvP at level 1.

Under my scenario it would be feasibly possible for a player to give a level 1 character two extremely optimized PvP oriented builds. Now for a player to even KNOW how to make an optimized PvP build it's almost a given that such a player is NOT a "clueless newb". People who do not know what they are doing are NOT likely going to go out of their way to make multiple optimized PvP builds for one character. The more likely result of being a "clueless newb" is that the player would simply have created two BAD BUILDS that are actually not "optimized" for anything useful at all. Regardless this incredibly unlikely scenario is just that, extremely unlikely.

Even if this incredibly unlikely scenario does actually happen a player CAN use a PvP optimized build in PvE. It would very likely not be ideal (by definition) but it would still be possible. Remember that just because a build might be optimized for PvP or PvE does NOT mean it's completely unusable in the other environment. Frankly any reasonably competent player would soon realize (and learn) what's going on and why some builds work better in one environment or the other.

The final point I'll make here is that your supposed "nightmare scenario" of a player giving themselves only PvP optimized builds "by accident" was COMPLETELY POSSIBLE back in TOG. Remember TOG let you do anything you wanted with any build. As I recall I NEVER HEARD of this situation ever happening much less being a "problem" for anyone.

Strawman... defeated.

Huckleberry wrote:

Perhaps instead of just one build for PvP they should provide three builds for PvP as well. That way everyone gets the full three builds for PvE and the full three builds for PvP.

While this is a possible compromise scenario I honestly do not believe MWM would want characters to have that many builds of -any- kind.

Huckleberry wrote:

As an aside, however, I can understand why they thought PvP would ever only need one build. this is because they only designed the PvP side to be a free-for-all in which anyone can fight anyone. So the various builds one would need for solo and cooperative play in the PvE world would be wasted on the PvP side of things. On the other hand, I'm sure a PvP player could justify different builds for different opponents and for solo versus team combat; so there probably is a reason to make three full builds for the PvP side as well.

Again you're making this whole thing much more complicated than it needs to be. If you would stop mentally classifying builds as "Only PvE" and "Only PvP" and just see them as generic builds that the PLAYER CHOOSES to use for anything they want then you'll see that the "four build slots that can be used for anything" paradigm covers all conceivable build situations and needs. The game doesn't need to "lock" builds into arbitrary functions or designations... let the PLAYERS do that for themselves.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What CoH did or didn’t do has almost ZERO bearing on how it why we do anything for THIS game.

It’s at the point where I practically ignore any comparisons to the old game at this point.

*sigh*

TOG allowed players to freely decide what their builds were going to be "optimized" for. Apparently you're making sure CoT is going to be LESS capable than that by forcing builds to be "PvP only" or "PvE only". So much for progress...

Tannim222 wrote:

We are limiting the total number of possible PvE builds to 3.

1 PvP build so PvE players don’t have to “sacrifice” their PvE builds.

Arbitrary limits... Why?

Tannim222 wrote:

It also gives us a way to, if we have to, change core functions of mechanics for PvP that won’t affect PvE builds at all. It is something we have and are striving to avoid but also understand it MIGHT happen. If core functions change they can drastically have an affect how a PvE build works and it could possibly make for a very poor PvP build.

Ah... finally the actual answer for why this game apparently needs the hardwired PvE/PvP build types.

As I feared you MIGHT end up with a situation where your PvE environment and your PvP environment are so radically different that the game mechanics between them effectively behave like two completely different games. Well based on the lessons from HISTORY from that other game you like to PRETEND doesn't exist you're going to have people screaming bloody murder at you if you allow the differences between PvP and PvE to become so vast that players MUST use completely different dedicated builds in order to be competitive. Just saying...

Did you ever wonder why PvP was never really all that popular back in TOG? Of course you didn't because for you TOG doesn't exist. It wasn't all that popular back in TOG precisely because they could never get the PvP environment to work 100% identically to the PvE environment. I don't really blame TOG for that failure - it's not like Paragon Studios actually had a snowball's chance in hell of making that work in the first place.

We place hard limits on a lot of aspects of design. Why 23 combat powers, why 4 augments per power? Why a limited number of possible Tertiary Sets allowed? Why a certain limit of alternate builds?

They all have one or multiple reasons to exist.

I didn’t say ToG doesn’t existZ I said that comparisons to ToG at this point are virtually useless.

We have poured over terabytes of data on ToG. We have gone though old dev postsC forum discussions, analyzed and disseminated mechanics and systems.

There ar things that the unreal engine can afford us the capability of doing that ToG could never dream of doing. Things that we want to apply for this game. There are also certain factors that require us to do things differently than ToG did. There are designs that differ so greatly that trying to adhere to what some old game did just won’t work that way.

I also did t day we HAVE to have a separate PvP design, only that we recognize the POSSIBILITY that we MIGHT have to go that route. Having a distinct PvP and PvE build afford us a way of doing so that allows us to do so where a PvE build may not function “properly” for PvP.

You get one starting PvE and PvP build and can unlock 2 more through play and use them as you desire. Each type of the game PvE or PvP gets to have 3 total possible builds.

You don’t like it. That is your right to feel that way.

But I’m not goin to engage with you if you want to continue with placing words in my mouth so you can be argumentative just because you don’t like somebody or it’s not how the old game did it.

my goodness

again, why can't we choose if that second slot is for pve or pvp? i will never pvp so it is completely wasted on me.

let people choose, per slot, what they want it to be. if they change their minds later, charge them to change it to the other

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What CoH did or didn’t do has almost ZERO bearing on how it why we do anything for THIS game.

It’s at the point where I practically ignore any comparisons to the old game at this point.

I don't care about multiple builds and am unlikely to use them, but this statement causes me some concern in a general sense. The Kickstarter for this game promised to make a spiritual successor to the old game, and it was based on that idea that we contributed. Obviously that's a vague term when it comes to how similar to the old game CoT should be, but I'd argue that 'almost zero' doesn't really qualify as a spiritual successor. Don't get me wrong: I am really looking forward to some of the aspects that we will know will be different, so I'm not looking for a copy -- but if the old game now has almost zero bearing on CoT, that could produce something that has a very different feel, and that's not what we were promised at all.

I hope this statement was just a bit of hyperbole arising from the frustration of dealing with difficult forum conversation. If so, no harm no foul.

No sadly Tannim does actually hate when anyone compares CoT to TOG for various reasons bad and worse.

Part of it of course stems from the semi-reasonable idea that every time CoT is "directly linked" to TOG it might give NCsoft yet another vector to use to potentially sue MWM for trying to "copy" City of Heroes. I honestly believe as the years pass by that the chances of that being possible becomes ever vanishingly remote but it's still statistically possible I suppose.

The other main reason Tannim hates it is because it tends to be a relative easy way to show how CoT is likely going to be somehow "inferior" to TOG in some aspect. There are many ways to counter Tannim's arguments by simply reminding him that X, Y, or Z simply was better back in TOG than what's planned for in CoT. TBH were I in Tannim's position I would also hate to be reminded of such things. Thus over the years Tannim has developed a reflexively "negative" reaction towards any mention of TOG for any reason. Heck why do you think people like me call the old game "TOG" instead of CoH? It's mainly because Tannim likely hates references to even COH as an acronym. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What CoH did or didn’t do has almost ZERO bearing on how it why we do anything for THIS game.

It’s at the point where I practically ignore any comparisons to the old game at this point.

I don't care about multiple builds and am unlikely to use them, but this statement causes me some concern in a general sense. The Kickstarter for this game promised to make a spiritual successor to the old game, and it was based on that idea that we contributed. Obviously that's a vague term when it comes to how similar to the old game CoT should be, but I'd argue that 'almost zero' doesn't really qualify as a spiritual successor. Don't get me wrong: I am really looking forward to some of the aspects that we will know will be different, so I'm not looking for a copy -- but if the old game now has almost zero bearing on CoT, that could produce something that has a very different feel, and that's not what we were promised at all.

I hope this statement was just a bit of hyperbole arising from the frustration of dealing with difficult forum conversation. If so, no harm no foul.

No sadly Tannim does actually hate when anyone compares CoT to TOG for various reasons bad and worse.

Part of it of course stems from the semi-reasonable idea that every time CoT is "directly linked" to TOG it might give NCsoft yet another vector to use to potentially sue MWM for trying to "copy" City of Heroes. I honestly believe as the years pass by that the chances of that being possible becomes ever vanishingly remote but it's still statistically possible I suppose.

The other main reason Tannim hates it is because it tends to be a relative easy way to show how CoT is likely going to be somehow "inferior" to TOG in some aspect. There are many ways to counter Tannim's arguments by simply reminding him that X, Y, or Z simply was better back in TOG than what's planned for in CoT. TBH were I in Tannim's position I would also hate to be reminded of such things. Thus over the years Tannim has developed a reflexively "negative" reaction towards any mention of TOG for any reason. Heck why do you think people like me call the old game "TOG" instead of CoH? It's mainly because Tannim likely hates references to even COH as an acronym. ;)

I never said nor implied “hate” of mention of the old game..

It just isn’t useful any more.

I had zero concerns of NCSoft coming at us to threaten us with legal action. We have done our due diligence including consultation and review by legal experts.

I do t really cares water you think something we do is inferior to the old game or not.

Your arguments based on “that’s how ToG did it” are virtually useless to us at this point in development.

All you have demonstrated to me is that you have a serious issue with me personally. You have fblatabtly ascribed false motivations behind why I say or don’t say something and how I feel about something all with purely negative assertions.

As such, I believe you to be purely toxic toward me. This isn’t the first time you e done this to me. From now on, I will behave like a typical game dev and be incredibly judicious in any reply to you.

I will put this simply. I don’t hate the old game. Comparisons to it are t useful any longer. Please stop ascribing negative motivations about me or my character . Seriously. Just stop.

If anyone else’s has questions about the original topic please ask. I would be happy to have positive discourse with you.


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As such, I believe you to be
Tannim222 wrote:

As such, I believe you to be purely toxic toward me. This isn’t the first time you e done this to me. From now on, I will behave like a typical game dev and be incredibly judicious in any reply to you.

What can I say other than you've said multiple things over the years that have required a "sane player's" response to counter your "myopic developer" mindset. If I don't make you reconsider things via constructive criticism you (and by extension MWM) will just keep drinking your own collective bathwater for another couple of decades. *shrugs*

Tannim222 wrote:

You get one starting PvE and PvP build and can unlock 2 more through play and use them as you desire. Each type of the game PvE or PvP gets to have 3 total possible builds.

OK... I'm going to attempt to parse what you're trying to explain here because you've managed to contradict yourself with your own statements.

In an earlier post you said the following: "We are limiting the total number of possible PvE builds to 3 [plus] 1 PvP build so PvE players don’t have to “sacrifice” their PvE builds"

So I read this to mean that we'll have up to FOUR builds:

    One starting PvE build (with the assumption that this build can ONLY be used for PvE)
    One starting PvP build (with the assumption that this build can ONLY be used for PvP)
    One "anything you want" build
    One "anything you want" build

Then you just said (underlined above) we're getting THREE total possible PvE or PvP builds. That makes no sense when you earlier said we're getting FOUR total possible builds. Did you count the first two "starting" builds in my list above as a single build?

Can you possibly (perhaps in an "incredibly judicious" way) explain what you actually plan for this game as far as builds go? Are we going to have access to 3 build slots or 4? Can you let us know whether we'll be forced to use the build defined in the "dedicated PvP" build slot during PvP or will we have the option to use a PvE build if we wanted to? Also can you verify that the "starting PvE build" slot would somehow become "unavailable" while in a PvP zone and (correspondingly) that the "starting PvP build" slot would somehow become "unavailable" while in a PvE zone? If so, why? Can you explain why we would need to have build slots that could only be used in specific zones? What game mechanic benefit do you gain by making the game that much more complicated?

And you wonder why I get frustrated with you... you often confuse things just as often as you manage to explain things.

Ultimately can you defend this convoluted mess against "Every character gets four build slots that could be used for ANYTHING a player wants ANYWHERE in the game"? BTW this is how TOG handled its builds...

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Nope. I’m done. I don’t to

Nope. I’m done. I don’t to answer your questions any longer.

You e “threatened me in PM in discord. You accused me of causing your ban from the forums. You accused me of hating comparisons to the old game. You accused me of being super formula forcing me to say something so didn’t want to say - which isn’t true

You’ve ascribed me as a person who is entirely negative snd I am done.

And one wonders why devs don’t communicate with player anymore.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Nope. I’m done. I don’t to answer your questions any longer.

I'm not sure you were ever strictly required to answer my questions to begin with.

Tannim222 wrote:

You e “threatened me in PM in discord.

I'm not sure what I could ever do to threaten you in any way, shape or form. Is not being a "yes-man" a new way to threaten people I'm unaware of?

Tannim222 wrote:

You accused me of causing your ban from the forums.

Well, you did.

Tannim222 wrote:

You accused me of hating comparisons to the old game.

Well, you do.

Tannim222 wrote:

You accused me of being super formula forcing me to say something so didn’t want to say - which isn’t true

Uhm... I'll pass on this one because I don't really understand what you're trying to say here.

Tannim222 wrote:

You’ve ascribed me as a person who is entirely negative snd I am done.

People who proverbially "take their ball and go home" tend to be somewhat negative-leaning.

Tannim222 wrote:

And one wonders why devs don’t communicate with player anymore.

Because players get frustrated with a Dev's inability to answer direct questions that should be easy to answer after working on something for over 7+ years?

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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MWM plans on giving every

MWM plans on giving every player 3 builds: one at level 1 and the other two some time later. They also plan on providing a PvP mirror universe and will give players a build for that as well. You will get that build at level 1 so you can get into PvP at the very start. If you don't ever play PvP, you still have your 3 builds along with everyone else. That's it. That's pretty simple.

You are trying to make a case that players should be able to carry over that PvP build into the PvE for four builds, but that is beyond the value proposal MWM has established for PvE. If they had wanted players to have 4 builds for PvE then they would have given them 4 builds for PvE along with the 1 PvP build. But they didn't. They've determined that three builds is what we're getting.

Your inquiry would have been far better served by asking either: 1) why did MWM decide on three PvE builds and not 2 or 4 or some other number? or 2) Why is there only one PvP build?

Edit: P.S. I just read your response to my previous statement and you completely misunderstood my argument. No surprise, since my word choice wasn't as clear as it could have been and also because you're so dug in now that you're not taking the time to try to understand any more. When I said gimp their PvP builds, i did not mean or intend for that to mean they would play PvE with PvP builds. When I said they would gimp their PvE builds I meant that they would have to reduce the number of PvE builds available in order to play PvP. I thought I was being clear, but obviously I wasn't.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

MWM plans on giving every player 3 builds: one at level 1 and the other two some time later. They also plan on providing a PvP mirror universe and will give players a build for that as well. You will get that build at level 1 so you can get into PvP at the very start. If you don't ever play PvP, you still have your 3 builds along with everyone else. That's it. That's pretty simple.

You are trying to make a case that players should be able to carry over that PvP build into the PvE for four builds, but that is beyond the value proposal MWM has established for PvE. If they had wanted players to have 4 builds for PvE then they would have given them 4 builds for PvE along with the 1 PvP build. But they didn't. They've determined that three builds is what we're getting.

Your inquiry would have been far better served by asking either: 1) why did MWM decide on three PvE builds and not 2 or 4 or some other number? or 2) Why is there only one PvP build?

Edit: P.S. I just read your response to my previous statement and you completely misunderstood my argument. No surprise, since my word choice wasn't as clear as it could have been and also because you're so dug in now that you're not taking the time to try to understand any more. When I said gimp their PvP builds, i did not mean or intend for that to mean they would play PvE with PvP builds. When I said they would gimp their PvE builds I meant that they would have to reduce the number of PvE builds available in order to play PvP. I thought I was being clear, but obviously I wasn't.

i am not confused. i am curious as to why one of those has to be a dedicated spot instead of letting the player choose.

there are going to be four spots. two at level one. let me choose if i want 2 pve, 1pve & 1pvp or even 2 pvp.

when the new spots open, give us the choice of either. at the end, if we decide that we would rather have one of those spots change, we can pay for it.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Nope. I’m done. I don’t to answer your questions any longer.

You e “threatened me in PM in discord. You accused me of causing your ban from the forums. You accused me of hating comparisons to the old game. You accused me of being super formula forcing me to say something so didn’t want to say - which isn’t true

You’ve ascribed me as a person who is entirely negative snd I am done.

And one wonders why devs don’t communicate with player anymore.

ok, i have not in any way done anything to you.

i am curious why it has to be dedicated instead of letting us choose. as i said in the post above?

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slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Nope. I’m done. I don’t to answer your questions any longer.

You e “threatened me in PM in discord. You accused me of causing your ban from the forums. You accused me of hating comparisons to the old game. You accused me of being super formula forcing me to say something so didn’t want to say - which isn’t true

You’ve ascribed me as a person who is entirely negative snd I am done.

And one wonders why devs don’t communicate with player anymore.

ok, i have not in any way done anything to you.

i am curious why it has to be dedicated instead of letting us choose. as i said in the post above?

That wasn’t in reply to you. Sorry if you felt as though I blamed you for something you didn’t do.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Nope. I’m done. I don’t to answer your questions any longer.

You e “threatened me in PM in discord. You accused me of causing your ban from the forums. You accused me of hating comparisons to the old game. You accused me of being super formula forcing me to say something so didn’t want to say - which isn’t true

You’ve ascribed me as a person who is entirely negative snd I am done.

And one wonders why devs don’t communicate with player anymore.

ok, i have not in any way done anything to you.

i am curious why it has to be dedicated instead of letting us choose. as i said in the post above?

That wasn’t in reply to you. Sorry if you felt as though I blamed you for something you didn’t do.

no problems, did not take it personally. i get that things like this get heated with passionate people on all sides.

i just know that i am not going to pvp at all. there may be those that do nothing but pvp. it would be nice to be able to choose what we want with all of the slots

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slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Nope. I’m done. I don’t to answer your questions any longer.

You e “threatened me in PM in discord. You accused me of causing your ban from the forums. You accused me of hating comparisons to the old game. You accused me of being super formula forcing me to say something so didn’t want to say - which isn’t true

You’ve ascribed me as a person who is entirely negative snd I am done.

And one wonders why devs don’t communicate with player anymore.

ok, i have not in any way done anything to you.

i am curious why it has to be dedicated instead of letting us choose. as i said in the post above?

That wasn’t in reply to you. Sorry if you felt as though I blamed you for something you didn’t do.

no problems, did not take it personally. i get that things like this get heated with passionate people on all sides.

i just know that i am not going to pvp at all. there may be those that do nothing but pvp. it would be nice to be able to choose what we want with all of the slots

It has been decided - and not by me mind you - that there will be no more than 3 possible builds for PvE or PvP. These reasons are qualities and quantified for both game play and business.

The first 2 builds are the ones which are dedicated to 1 of each type.

If bot, there will only be 1 build possible at start with 2 more unlocked later.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Nope. I’m done. I don’t to answer your questions any longer.

You e “threatened me in PM in discord. You accused me of causing your ban from the forums. You accused me of hating comparisons to the old game. You accused me of being super formula forcing me to say something so didn’t want to say - which isn’t true

You’ve ascribed me as a person who is entirely negative snd I am done.

And one wonders why devs don’t communicate with player anymore.

ok, i have not in any way done anything to you.

i am curious why it has to be dedicated instead of letting us choose. as i said in the post above?

That wasn’t in reply to you. Sorry if you felt as though I blamed you for something you didn’t do.

no problems, did not take it personally. i get that things like this get heated with passionate people on all sides.

i just know that i am not going to pvp at all. there may be those that do nothing but pvp. it would be nice to be able to choose what we want with all of the slots

It has been decided - and not by me mind you - that there will be no more than 3 possible builds for PvE or PvP. These reasons are qualities and quantified for both game play and business.

The first 2 builds are the ones which are dedicated to 1 of each type.

If bot, there will only be 1 build possible at start with 2 more unlocked later.

has there been a decision on how many character slots there will be?

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Yes. The starting number is

Yes. The starting number is still in flux - I’ve are starting with 6. You unlock another each time a character hits the level cap. Ther upper limit hasn’t been identities yet - part of the global account structure which I’m not a apart of. It earlier talk was some extremely high number.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yes. The starting number is still in flux - I’ve are starting with 6. You unlock another each time a character hits the level cap. Ther upper limit hasn’t been identities yet - part of the global account structure which I’m not a apart of. It earlier talk was some extremely high number.

ok. that makes it easier. i liked how i could play so many different styles in cox. if we get three per character and enough character slots, i can see it working.

still curious about the reason behind the limit of three per, if you have any info on it

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slagger wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yes. The starting number is still in flux - I’ve are starting with 6. You unlock another each time a character hits the level cap. Ther upper limit hasn’t been identities yet - part of the global account structure which I’m not a apart of. It earlier talk was some extremely high number.

ok. that makes it easier. i liked how i could play so many different styles in cox. if we get three per character and enough character slots, i can see it working.

still curious about the reason behind the limit of three per, if you have any info on it

As I said they have to deal with qualities and quantities qualities related to both game play and business. As such, I am
Not at liberty to discuss details based on internal conversation given to me
In good faith.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
slagger wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Yes. The starting number is still in flux - I’ve are starting with 6. You unlock another each time a character hits the level cap. Ther upper limit hasn’t been identities yet - part of the global account structure which I’m not a apart of. It earlier talk was some extremely high number.

ok. that makes it easier. i liked how i could play so many different styles in cox. if we get three per character and enough character slots, i can see it working.

still curious about the reason behind the limit of three per, if you have any info on it

As I said they have to deal with qualities and quantities qualities related to both game play and business. As such, I am
Not at liberty to discuss details based on internal conversation given to me
In good faith.

gotcha. can you tell us if each spot will have the option to change our costume as well?

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I know there will be plenty

I know there will be plenty of costume slots. I don’t think we have discussed if we will set up a hook or choosing a costume slot for a build. Stuff like that gets handled much later in the development process.


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And to those reading this

And to those reading this thread I want to clarify something:

I don’t hate the old game. I don’t pretend it never existed. I loved playing the old game. It is a large reason why I began volunteering here.

The company, Missing Worlds Media’s stance is to not refer to the old game currently because of its questionable status as a legal IP. So the company requires we maintain clear stance on referring to it.

We, as a team, have studied every aspect of the game design, systems, mechanics, snd even business practices of the previous studio. Literally terabytes if data have been reviewed in great detail.

We have moved forward with our own mechanics and systems. We have our own set of game play system metrics to adhere to. The demands of the engine, the systems we use, the game play mechanics, and needs of our business model drive our decision making.

The development team is not beholden to how the old game did anything. The view is we are a spiritual successor - we are inspired by it.

At this time in our development, comparison to the old game is virtually useless to us. It bears no meaning because of all of the above. City of Titans is its own game. Inspired by what came before, yes. Not beholden to what came before.

As such, again, I don’t hate it. I remember it fondly. Having played since beta to close.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I know there will be plenty of costume slots. I don’t think we have discussed if we will set up a hook or choosing a costume slot for a build. Stuff like that gets handled much later in the development process.

awesome, thanks

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I may have missed something

I may have missed something (I hope I didn't), but I see another reason for that "3pve 1pvp" matter.

Who decided this probably thought about having at least 1 pve and 1 pvp build forced to all players (cause both things are part of the game, you can decide to miss a part of the game but you still get at least one slot to participate in it), so that when you enter a PVE instance or a PVP instance the changes can happen instantly and automatically, the player auto-switches to their dedicated pve or pvp build and if they had none that could create an issue or difficulties or misunderstanding. It's more clear for the player to know that specific slot will be used for pvp automatically when joining a pvp-area even if he thinks he may never need it, he must be ready and able to move into pvp areas for whatever reason at all times (special events? sudden change of mind?).

They may have also thought about limiting the total to 3 (which became 4 with the addition of the dedicated pvp one) cause they don't want the player to store more then 3 characters into one (a decision I like personally, I played games that make you switch everything at any time -class, builds, all of it- and I dislike it cause the specific characters completely lose any kind of identity or role for the community). Plus, there could be an economic reason too. 3 builds are enough to give freedom but limited so the character still partially remain the same, it's not a multi-character all-in-one.

When you merge such decisions (auto-switch between pve and pvp based on the type of instance, minimum 1 build for each type, players must have the ability to gain more builds but not too many), the result "at least 1 pve + at least 1 pvp + 2 unlocked by players" comes out on its own, pretty much. That's my guess at least.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

And to those reading this thread I want to clarify something:

I don’t hate the old game. I don’t pretend it never existed. I loved playing the old game. It is a large reason why I began volunteering here.

The company, Missing Worlds Media’s stance is to not refer to the old game currently because of its questionable status as a legal IP. So the company requires we maintain clear stance on referring to it.

We, as a team, have studied every aspect of the game design, systems, mechanics, snd even business practices of the previous studio. Literally terabytes if data have been reviewed in great detail.

We have moved forward with our own mechanics and systems. We have our own set of game play system metrics to adhere to. The demands of the engine, the systems we use, the game play mechanics, and needs of our business model drive our decision making.

The development team is not beholden to how the old game did anything. The view is we are a spiritual successor - we are inspired by it.

At this time in our development, comparison to the old game is virtually useless to us. It bears no meaning because of all of the above. City of Titans is its own game. Inspired by what came before, yes. Not beholden to what came before.

As such, again, I don’t hate it. I remember it fondly. Having played since beta to close.

Thank you Tannim for taking the time to answer my original question, and the extra infromation you've also added in the replies.

I too still find it weird that one slot is dedicated, but I get that ELSEWHERE there is a decision that 3 builds PVE is the max for im sure gameplay reasons we dont have revealed yet (I mean, having TOO Much flexibility removes the draw of playing different characters; ala Diablo 3 instant respect). So I get that its not one slot -LOCKED- for PVP, but one slot for PVP; and we were never going to get more than 3 PVE slots from the start. Thank you for that clarification. Though I do still wonder what level the second PvE slot opens at?

I am in disagreement about comparing to TOG. Its still very useful and will always be useful; just like comparing it to other MMOs. There are other supers MMOS being created, and other games out there, so comparing TOG and -any other- mmo will literally be the forefront in my mind when deciding how much this game draws me in.

Its also weird to not want to compare from TOG because there are -many- sacred cows that are taken from that game that are .... not really in any way related to the genre or standard mmo design, and are VERY specifically to recreate the feel of TOG.

For example: Operators getting pets as end caps (oh except for one, the same one that didnt get one in TOG). Which was weird when tog did it, but a stylistic choice, and is obviously an homage directly to said game; as its inspiration wouldnt come from anything else.

So I totally see reasons to compare and I think your (future) players will always compare them. A different way to go about addressing that might be better than shutting it down every interaction.

Thank you again for your constant and quick clarifications.

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What I meant about using

What I meant about using “well ToG did it” being used as an argument for why we should do something is a moot issue for us on the development team.

We have moved way beyond looking backward in design. We’ve analyzed the game and the business of the previous studio with intense scrutiny. We’re moving forward based on the decisions that have been made, systems designed, and mechanics designed.

For us, as developers, it just is t useful information anymore. I am aware people will make their own comparisons. Those will probably never stop. But we have different metrics, different systems, different mechanics, and different aspects of designs that are driving decisions made for THIS game that are no longer made by what the old game did.

That is all. I meant.


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I get that. Maybe it didnt

I get that. Initially, maybe it didnt translate well in my interpretation.

I think what we're ('we' being the onlooker) are forgetting in these interactions is that theres just SO MUCH thats under the hood right now, that doesn't make sense without layers of understand other decisions made.

Im a Project Manager, and its amazing how often someone makes pushback on something, mostly because they don't see the entire picture, and thats most often just because they dont HAVE all the pieces, because its not efficient for EVERYONE to have them. And again in this case, we're the customer on an unreleased game so it makes sense that we just dont have the info.

Like why 3 PVE slots? I bet someone has the answer to that, and Im just going to have to trust at this point that its a good, and well crafted decision, but probably one that considers many many systems, such as end game, leveling speed, types of content etc etc etc that we as the consumer may NEVER see under the hood on.

So your answer and perspective makes sense, and thank you for your time.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

What I meant about using “well ToG did it” being used as an argument for why we should do something is a moot issue for us on the development team.

We have moved way beyond looking backward in design. We’ve analyzed the game and the business of the previous studio with intense scrutiny. We’re moving forward based on the decisions that have been made, systems designed, and mechanics designed.

For us, as developers, it just is t useful information anymore. I am aware people will make their own comparisons. Those will probably never stop. But we have different metrics, different systems, different mechanics, and different aspects of designs that are driving decisions made for THIS game that are no longer made by what the old game did.

That is all. I meant.

So if I understand what you're saying, it's not that ToG doesn't still influence this game in a significant way, but that all that influence is now baked into the foundation and at this point in the development process it's either already in there or it's one of the areas where CoT is going to diverge. So core elements like tab-targeted combat, instanced missions, and emphasis on alts are all in there already to fulfil that 'spiritual successor' promise, and we're now at the stage where MWM is building new elements on top of that core. Therefore I should not take any resistance to comparisons to ToG as a sign that CoT is suddenly going to diverge from any of these core elements to become something unrecognisable.

Is that a fair interpretation?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

So if I understand what you're saying, it's not that ToG doesn't still influence this game in a significant way, but that all that influence is now baked into the foundation and at this point in the development process it's either already in there or it's one of the areas where CoT is going to diverge.

That's a good way to put it, yes. I think nearly all of us played that game and we're definitely looking to carry a lot of the feel over.

I get Tannim's frustration too- seems like every other decision the devs make that someone doesn't like, they say "well the old game did it this other way" as if that solves whatever the problem is. And it's always the same names that say it, with no understanding of the systems and technology under it. We're building a new game on a new engine, we don't have a magic "old game" button we can press for certain things to work the way they used to. We have to do it in a way that works on the new engine, for our new design, while doing our best to stay on that track we'd already laid out.

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OK that's fair enough. I can

OK that's fair enough. I can definitely understand that frustration you folks must feel!

Spurn all ye kindle.

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I don't feel frustrated at

I don't feel frustrated at all. I loved TOG, and I still do. I was before joining COT on a mission to bring TOG back in a more modern way. I believe we (COT devs) are well on our way to doing just that.

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