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Clothes and Costumes Designs

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warlocc
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Clothes and Costumes Designs

Use this thread to discuss clothing and costume design decisions.

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warlocc
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Shout out to Huckleberry for

Shout out to Huckleberry for this;

"Artstrong's comments were referring to the necessity of some underclothing, not just the biker shorts that were part of this costume. Since the skirt layer is above the spandex layer in our character models, the full line of spandex (and other spandex-layer) customizations options will be available under skirts. We did not intend to give the impression that biker shorts were the minimum coverage under a skirt."

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warcabbit
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Thank you, Huckleberry, you

Thank you, Huckleberry, you said what I wanted to say. I'm really not feeling good, and not expressing myself fully.

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Lothic
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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:

Shout out to Huckleberry for this;

"Artstrong's comments were referring to the necessity of some underclothing, not just the biker shorts that were part of this costume. Since the skirt layer is above the spandex layer in our character models, the full line of spandex (and other spandex-layer) customizations options will be available under skirts. We did not intend to give the impression that biker shorts were the minimum coverage under a skirt."

Well ArtStrong certainly gave that impression, especially based on the following exact transcript of what was said in the recent ArtStrong video (starting at the 4:30 mark):

ArtStrong wrote:

She's got shorts under there. So one of the mandates we have is we're going to try to prevent the pervert stuff you know the people taking under-skirt shots and all that stuff so we're going to try do our best for that so most of the outfits I make are going to be modest like this."

Warcabbit actually wanted us to believe (in a deleted reply on the other thread) that ArtStrong was simply "joking" about all this. Doesn't really sound like he's "joking" to me. What does sound like a joke to me is thinking that tossing biker shorts underneath a miniskirt would in fact ever "prevent" any "pervert stuff" in the first place.

I get there can be allowances for "artistic vision" but based directly on what was said it doesn't really seem like he's going to make any allowances for anything even remotely "skimpy", especially since he himself says "most of the outfits I make are going to be modest" based on this supposed mandate of what I assume he alone gets to judge as "modest".

Look... my only motivation here is to make sure your game doesn't suck. If I have to call out Devs for having "questionable" intentions that I believe are not in the best interest of your playerbase I'm going to make those issues known. The problem here is that I've clearly identified a case that's laughably hypocritical. I'll ask you one more time how can "reasonable panties under a miniskirt" be too risque for CoT when everything ArtStrong seems to fear about what he unilaterally defines as "pervert stuff" can be done with a spandex based leotard?

I honestly don't care as much about how puritanical or non-puritanical your artists want to make their contributions to MWM but for God's sake at least be consistent in what you will or won't allow in your game. Don't imply one thing is "pervert stuff" when you're allowing other things in that are very arguably much worse from a "modesty" standpoint.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

warlocc
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Well ArtStrong certainly gave that impression, especially based on the following exact transcript of what was said in recent ArtStrong video (starting at the 4:30 mark):

He definitely could have said it better in the video. Don't forget, those videos are very informal, stuff he's making on his own time. He comments as he works. He doesn't pass a script to us to approve before he publishes it. Afterwards, we sometimes have to clarify.

In the now nuked thread, we saw a great example of how not to clarify, and it made a big mess. Like I said, Huckleberry had the correct answer. We'll have various options that can be worn under skirts, but there will always be something there.

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warlocc wrote:
warlocc wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Well ArtStrong certainly gave that impression, especially based on the following exact transcript of what was said in the recent ArtStrong video (starting at the 4:30 mark):

He definitely could have said it better in the video. Don't forget, those videos are very informal, stuff he's making on his own time. He comments as he works. He doesn't pass a script to us to approve before he publishes it. Afterwards, we sometimes have to clarify.

Yeah... "clarification" was very much in order when ArtStong was claiming that he was following "a mandate" for modesty. Look... I totally get that the main "mandate" that you follow is staying within the bounds of the "T for Teen" rating. I have literally NEVER argued for anything to be put into this game that would actually go beyond a "T for Teen" rating myself. But when someone like ArtStrong talks about following a "mandate for modesty" how on Earth is a potential player like me not supposed to take him at his word?

I know it's going to be a P.I.T.A. to manage but anyone who publicly "speaks" on behalf of MWM is going to have to follow/uphold the company's "party line" as best as they can. When you have people like ArtStrong who (presumably) starts to talk "off-script" you're only going to get situations like this. I can only base my statements about this game based on what the Devs publicly tell us - if that info is "incomplete" then any conclusions I make will be both incomplete AND not really my fault. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

warlocc wrote:

In the now nuked thread, we saw a great example of how not to clarify, and it made a big mess. Like I said, Huckleberry had the correct answer. We'll have various options that can be worn under skirts, but there will always be something there.

I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this but I HAVE NEVER ASKED FOR THERE TO BE A "NO UNDERWEAR" OPTION, EVER ON ANY THREAD, PERIOD. I don't know why people like you have to keep saying that to me or the community in general. Good lord people I KNOW MWM WILL NEVER WILLINGLY GIVE US OPTIONS FOR NUDITY IN COT. Can we all just take that as a given and move past having to mention it all the fracking time? I may be an expert at pissing you people off but I'm not a fucking idiot about that specific point believe me.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Does this mean we won't be

Does this mean we won't be getting thongs? COH has them....are we too woke to allow such things?

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Cyclops wrote:
Cyclops wrote:

Does this mean we won't be getting thongs? COH has them....are we too woke to allow such things?

Well first of all you have to remember that to certain Devs around here TOG doesn't technically "exist" so pointing out that TOG had certain specific costume items probably doesn't matter to MWM in the grand scheme of things. It's basically a convenient way for those Devs in question to deflect issues that make them look bad relative to how TOG managed to handle similar situations.

Beyond that I would simply consider what things would be deemed to be within the thresholds of a "T for Teen" rating. I suppose if key MWM Devs decide (even unilaterally) that costume items X, Y or Z fall outside the scope of what THEY THINK works for "T for Teen" then those things aren't going to appear in the game. As always we are basically held hostage to the whims of Devs who may or may not share the playerbase's collective views on these matters.

As you might imagine all creative endeavors are products of their times. For instance if a game like this could have been created in the 1950s I'd bet we'd have all sorts of options, emotes and/or macros for smoking cigarettes and the main "bad guys" of the game would be those dirty "Rooskie Commies". So having this game be made in the aftermath of the "Me Too" movement and under woke-style "Cancel Culture" mentality I suspect this game's costume items will take a turn towards being more "conservative" in general. We have signs of that already - the only reason this thread exists is due to a Mod's reactionary stance against the open discussion of certain types of costume items being in the game.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I think if the considerable

I think if the considerable efforts of developers to get this right are considered to be "whims" then you might like to consider that this thread appears to exist specifically to gather feedback on the topic.

I never saw the deleted thread. Perhaps it was also like a focus group. Such things are usually held in private but try to take into account all possible points of view (with the limitation of being a subset group). Focus groups can be confusing and sometimes heated too.

MWM is laying it all out here on the forum for anyone concerned. Lothic I do appreciate you raising the time-variant nature of mores - I am also an oldie navigating the intended move towards kinder communication without creating new kinds of toxicity. The "Mods" will also have points of view potentially influenced by their job requirements. It feels to me a bit like Privacy law. A shitstorm of flowery language, "guarantees" and "accountabilities" that technology cannot provide and conventional lawyers live in fear of - corporate law may hold them personally responsible. At least it's all written down in not too many places.

Let's allow all viewpoints without demeaning them. Ultimately a lawyer might override whatever is said. Dangit. But a good discussion could help inform them.

"The illusion which exalts us is dearer to us than ten thousand truths." - Pushkin
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Airhead wrote:
Airhead wrote:

I think if the considerable efforts of developers to get this right are considered to be "whims" then you might like to consider that this thread appears to exist specifically to gather feedback on the topic.

I never saw the deleted thread. Perhaps it was also like a focus group. Such things are usually held in private but try to take into account all possible points of view (with the limitation of being a subset group). Focus groups can be confusing and sometimes heated too.

I wish the origin of this thread was as "optimistically idealistic" as you assume but let's just say I was involved when this thread was created.

I think I can speak for warlocc when I say that this thread basically served to defuse an escalating "disagreement" that started over on ArtStrong's Art (2021) thread. I voiced my measured opinion about one of ArtStrong's costume items and several Rednames reacted to my reasonable opinion by not only claiming that I had HIJACKED the thread but that my constructive criticism was simply some kind of twisted scheme to promote my desire to have NUDITY and/or EXPLICIT UNDERWEAR in CoT. It was utterly laughable, totally untrue and completely insulting to me.

So like I said the "origin story" of this particular thread is not exactly as "high-minded" as you were led to believe. *shrugs*

Airhead wrote:

MWM is laying it all out here on the forum for anyone concerned. Lothic I do appreciate you raising the time-variant nature of mores - I am also an oldie navigating the intended move towards kinder communication without creating new kinds of toxicity. The "Mods" will also have points of view potentially influenced by their job requirements. It feels to me a bit like Privacy law. A shitstorm of flowery language, "guarantees" and "accountabilities" that technology cannot provide and conventional lawyers live in fear of - corporate law may hold them personally responsible. At least it's all written down in not too many places.

Let's allow all viewpoints without demeaning them. Ultimately a lawyer might override whatever is said. Dangit. But a good discussion could help inform them.

Well it's hard to have the beginnings of a "good discussion" when various Devs automatically assume I'm suggesting ridiculously outlandish things for this game.

I know full well that there are plenty of people who (to put it mildly) "dislike" me on this forum but no matter what my position on things are I am not STUPID enough to openly suggest this game should have nudity or costume items that are obviously inappropriate for a "T for Teen" rating. The idea that there are Devs out there who think that of me is sad and (again) insulting to me. I didn't donate a four-figure sum to this game's Kickstarter campaign only to see it fail because it couldn't live within the bounds of standard decency and socially acceptable content.

But by the same token I do not want to see this game bogged down by self-proclaimed "mandates for modesty" which frankly sound a little too close to "let's put a burka on everyone so no one gets offended". We don't need Devs who are wasting silly amounts of time being worried about whether their costumes are "modest" enough or not. We need these guys to get their collective shit together and get a playable game made some time within the next couple of decades.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I don't think we need any

I don't think we need any sort of 'modesty mandate' in this process. We simply need to be adults.

We, as a community, have already discussed 'anatomical correctness' to death and beyond. There is no need for this product to provide titillation or crotchturbation. If such is wanted, there are certainly many other products that supply it. Our virtual plastic action figures will not be improved by such. This is not some sort of second-life social simulator, this is about heroes 'arresting' criminals and looking good.

So, most people wear under-clothing. People who expect to be physically active wear supportive undergarments. They don't want to get their tender-bits hung up on the terrain.

As a product subject to 'rating' by groups that want to defend the 'children' from certain harsh realities, the Devs are wise to keep the graphics 'conservative'.

Lothic is an adult and not some sort of foolish troublemaker. He values art and realism but recognizes an adult's responsibility towards the 'community'. He took part in the 'Thread that shall not be Named' because he knows that the human body is beautiful, but many people seem to have associated anti-social ideas with him. Unfortunately.

I'm a professional Massage Therapist. By the gods, I can assure you that the human body is beautiful and worthy of art and admiration. I took part in the discussion on that thread, too. The true result of that thread was the conclusion that this game did not need to be a 'flesh-simulator' or devote programming-time and graphics resources to such. That meant that more was available for costumes and setting graphic resources, like trees and grass.

Even Cyclops's TOG Thong was just a bit of paint on Barbie's plastic bottom. I don't believe Any of the adults on this thread, or any of the others, is advocating for 'Dr. Manhattan's Perfect Moon'. Yet some people Have been acting like nudity was the issue. Again, why would any of us advocate for something that would mean the game could not be sold to the general public? We are all supporters.

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Lothic
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

As a product subject to 'rating' by groups that want to defend the 'children' from certain harsh realities, the Devs are wise to keep the graphics 'conservative'.

Everyone has their own standards as to what type of content would cross the line past a "T for Teen" rating and unfortunately judging what is good or not can be somewhat vague. To paraphrase United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart most people judge things to be inappropriate by the standard of "I know it when I see it" which makes it quite hard for a group of people (like the Devs and playerbase of a MMORPG) to actually agree on anything related to this issue.

Obviously the final say will likely come from MWM, but that does not mean other people's opinions should not be voiced even if those opinions lean more towards the laissez-faire end of the spectrum. At the very least the basic metric for what might appear in this game costume-wise should be based on what is typically allowed in public venues. If a cheerleader at a high school football game or a swimmer at a typical non-nude beach can wear it then it should be fine for CoT.

Fireheart wrote:

Lothic is an adult and not some sort of foolish troublemaker. He values art and realism but recognizes an adult's responsibility towards the 'community'. He took part in the 'Thread that shall not be Named' because he knows that the human body is beautiful, but many people seem to have associated anti-social ideas with him. Unfortunately.

Thank you for the kind words. Again I understand I have a certain "forum history" related to these issues that may never be fully rehabilitated and I'm sure there are those who will forever see me and my posts in a "negative light" because of it. But like most of us I only wish MWM to succeed even if we don't see eye-to-eye as to what may or may not be appropriate for this game.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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In the dev's defense and in

In the dev's defense and in accusation of them in the same breath, culture today is different than it was even six years ago.

The need to virtue signal is pervasive. We've seen it in MWM. They feel the need to say "we have to be modest" because of the absolute fear of someone in the public taking offense and accusing them of an indefensible crime. When I say indefensible I mean just that. No matter what they might state as a rationale for allowing (sexiness in this case) they will never be able to defend against the offended types who would accuse them of prurient titillation. MWM just wasn't counting on getting lambasted from the normally silent mainstream opinions point of view in the manner that they were trying to avoid from the 'offended' types who always hover ready to strike. Lothic had the courage to call them out on it for what it was. And while I understand what MWM feels is the need to avoid unjustified and damningly bad PR takes from 'those who be offended,' I also can't overlook the lack of good faith that they display when doing so. It can't be easy for them.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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My main concern is not that

My main concern is not that MWM will fail to avoid offending the most sensitive people with overtly "titillating content" or that they would accidentally overstep the rational bounds of the "T for Teen" rating. No, my concern is that they may "over-correct" and lean too far towards an overwhelming degree of draconian restraint all in the quixotic conceit of trying to make sure they don't offend ANYONE, AT ALL. As I half-jokingly mentioned in a previous post this is a proverbial slippery slope towards every character wearing burkas. Their "mandate for modesty" could very well lead to things being so safe, boring and unappealing that players might literally give up on CoT over something as nonsensical as "the costume options simply suck".

I can give a recent real world example of how an effort to keep things "overly modest" can backfire badly. There was a high school employee in Florida (yeah it's always Florida) who got caught literally photo-shopping roughly 80 yearbook photos of female students who apparently (according to the employee) were showing "too much skin" around their necks/shoulders even though NONE of them had violated the actual dress code of the school. The employee responsible lost her job over the incident.

Again as long as MWM stays within the bounds of the "T for Teen" rating then everything will be fine. I just worry that there are those at MWM who might decide to "self-interpret" those rating boundaries to be quite a bit more restrictive than they actually are.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012