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Discuss: Beyond Good and Evil 2

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JWBullfrog
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Discuss: Beyond Good and Evil 2

read the original article here: https://cityoftitans.com/content/beyond-good-and-evil-2

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All Purpose Frog

Wait until you see the... nope, that would ruin the surprise.

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As always thanks for the new

As always thanks for the new info. But as always an info dump like this usually raises some interesting questions...

In a nutshell it's pretty clear that Reputation and Alignment are things that a player could potentially shift one way or another based on how the character is played over time. Those values can go "positive" or "negative" based on player actions. This supposedly would give the player full control over which way they wanted to evolve in those aspects.

But (and correct me if I'm wrong) it sort of sounds like Renown is a quality that will only go one way. You talk about it being a measure of "familiarity" among the city's population where you could go from being (for example) an "unknown hero" to a "famous hero". The question I have is let's say I want my currently "famous hero" to become something else like say a "famous scoundrel"? Would I be able to traverse back down the Renown scale and make the jump from being a "hero" to a "scoundrel" or would my character's Renown be forever locked to one of the four pathways?

As I'm sure you're well aware the CoH alignment system allowed players to work their way around the alignment circle from Hero to Vigilante to Villain to Rogue and back around to Hero again. Not saying that was any better or worse than what you're proposing here for CoT. But the key point was that the player could change their status as far as this designation goes. Will CoT players be able to effectively switch from Hero to Villain or does the Renown concept forever lock a given character down one path?

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While this didn’t make it

While this didn’t make it into the update, there is a system we intend to have for changing Renown, so you can go from Hero to Villain and go from a Famous hero to an Unknown Villain and work your Renown as a Villain UO to where you want it.

We aren’t including it at launch because we want to have more Paths in place and make sure we can have the change of a Path work correctly. Because you can’t go from a Hero Path, become a Villain, and still complete the Hero Path.

We want to also ensure the transition not only technically works, but narratively. This requires more time from the Comp team and more testing than we have time for to get in by launch. I hope this helps.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

While this didn’t make it into the update, there is a system we intend to have for changing Renown, so you can go from Hero to Villain and go from a Famous hero to an Unknown Villain and work your Renown as a Villain UO to where you want it.

We aren’t including it at launch because we want to have more Paths in place and make sure we can have the change of a Path work correctly. Because you can’t go from a Hero Path, become a Villain, and still complete the Hero Path.

We want to also ensure the transition not only technically works, but narratively. This requires more time from the Comp team and more testing than we have time for to get in by launch. I hope this helps.

If changing which Renown path your character is on is something that'll have to wait until post-launch then that's fine. I just wanted to make sure the concept of being able to change your path at all was still going to be a thing eventually. Being a fallen hero or a redeemed villain is a huge plot device in the comic book genre and it'd be unfortunate if it wasn't going to be completely accounted for in CoT.

Clearly a character's current position on the Renown pathways would have to be mutually exclusive (i.e. an individual character could never be a famous hero and a famous villain at the same time). But I'm hoping that it'll be technically possible (no matter how hard it might be) for a single character to eventually travel all the way up all four pathways one at a time. I basically did that equivalent thing with several of my CoH characters and it provided me with a fun goal to keep me wanting to play the game for many, many additional hours (hint, hint).

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Quote:
Quote:

go from a Famous hero to an Unknown Villain and work your Renown as a Villain

Does a famous hero become an unknown...anything? Consider this. A world famous hero is signing autographs at a convention. Smiles, laughs, baby kissing. But then a fan troll decides to throw a slurpee at WFH and this is the last straw. WFH murders everyone. Camera's catch it all, it's live streamed by hapless victims and security cameras. There is an absolute media frenzy. WFH becomes WFV in 15minutes. But that's not the end WFV now pops up at cons all over the nation laying waste to fans left and right.

It's true that their reputation with villain groups might still be low, but would their fame disappear instantly when they become a villain? In reality I think not, if anything they might become more famous for being the hero that fell.

The story for the opposite works just as well. A villain suddenly develops a heart of gold.

If that's how the mechanics work for playability reasons I get it. It just doesn't seem right to me from a storytelling perspective.

I'm splitting hairs over a feature that doesn't exist yet so please don't take these comments too far down the rabbit hole. That's where I'm hiding anyway, it'd be a bit cramped.

Quote:

Clearly a character's current position on the Renown pathways would have to be mutually exclusive

A counter point that springs to mind is Emperor Palpatine. Within the Republic government and Empire he was at the very top. The hero that survived the treachery of the Jedi Order. And he was also Lord of the Sith, within that villain faction he was the pinnacle. And stood high in many other villain factions, even if they didn't really know that.

Again splitting hairs. EP/DS is a unique individual that has two separate identities. It would be supremely interesting to see MWM code that sort of behavior into the game. But I think even Bioware CDPR Bethesda and Larian working together would have a hard time developing an open world open story system that would allow for that level of deception and subterfuge.

Edit, messy ranty post. slightly clearer and more coherent.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:
Quote:

go from a Famous hero to an Unknown Villain and work your Renown as a Villain

Does a famous hero become an unknown...anything?

I think you drove home the general point of concern a bit further than I did. The primary question here is whether or not the concept of "character fame" ought to be so closely linked to the "hero/vigilante/villain/scoundrel" (HVVS) game mechanic. That's why I was worried about these pathways being only "one way" because usually a person progresses from being Unknown to Famous only once. I could see a world famous hero (WFH) becoming a villain, but as you say why would a "world famous" anything suddenly become an "unknown" anything?

I think the concept of "character fame" (if that's going to exist as a thing in CoT at all) needs to be decoupled from the HVVS mechanic.

Grimfox wrote:
Quote:

Clearly a character's current position on the Renown pathways would have to be mutually exclusive

A counter point that springs to mind is Emperor Palpatine. Within the Republic government and Empire he was at the very top. The hero that survived the treachery of the Jedi Order. And he was also Lord of the Sith, within that villain faction he was the pinnacle. And stood high in many other villain factions, even if they didn't really know that.

Again splitting hairs. EP/DS is a unique individual that has two separate identities. It would be supremely interesting to see MWM code that sort of behavior into the game. But I think even Bioware CDPR Bethesda and Larian working together would have a hard time developing an open world open story system that would allow for that level of deception and subterfuge.

Edit, messy ranty post. slightly clearer and more coherent.

Yes to be fair a given character could easily have a "public face" that makes them seem like a WFH but privately they are actually a WFV. The recent TV show The Boys is based on this very idea of a group of Justice League styled heroes that are anything but heroic behind closed doors - in fact they are the actual "villains" of the show.

Unfortunately I tend to agree that having characters with that many "layers" might be hard for any computer-based game to handle. That's the kind of thing that only a human GM in a table-top situation could hope to support.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Remember, this is a game

Remember, this is a game system. The “famous” hero might have been famous as a hero, they do some things to no longer been seen favorably as a hero, but the general villain-siding factions may not really care all that much for your villainous antics yet.

The same goes for civilians, they may one day exclaim your exploits as a hero, but once you’re no longer doing those heroic things and aren’t as popular, they aren’t going to talk about you as much.

Because the (label) Renown to apply to your character is also linked to the type of Paths (series of mission arcs) you will have access to, we also will be using this system to provide a means for switching Renown and thus, your path.

You could go from 1-50 as a hero and reach whatever Renown level you like, having played through the “Save the world” hero path.

Then decide to switch to villain, this opening the villain paths and you decide to choose the lconquer the world” villain path. Well, when you start out as a villain, no matter your level, you are essentially starting the villain story from the beginning.

There needs to be a method changing your Renown (label” as it will affect all of your faction reputations.

Now, this isn’t to say that we can’t add more to the system for when you make these types of changes, using say an Achievement earned for high Renown as a hero, that triggers certain actions or responses from certain factions / civilians when you switch to a new Renown.

It can even be something like “Hey isn’t that Lothic? Wasn’t he some great hero once?”
“Yeah, but now he is some low life Scoundrel. Let’s get going before he starts trouble”

Your character’s “game” is directly tied to your label because that is what you are known as by the world at large. When you change, you are no longer that “famous” (insert label”, but now the factions relate to you / the world sees you differently.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Remember, this is a game system. The “famous” hero might have been famous as a hero, they do some things to no longer been seen favorably as a hero, but the general villain-siding factions may not really care all that much for your villainous antics yet.

The same goes for civilians, they may one day exclaim your exploits as a hero, but once you’re no longer doing those heroic things and aren’t as popular, they aren’t going to talk about you as much.

Because the (label) Renown to apply to your character is also linked to the type of Paths (series of mission arcs) you will have access to, we also will be using this system to provide a means for switching Renown and thus, your path.

You could go from 1-50 as a hero and reach whatever Renown level you like, having played through the “Save the world” hero path.

Then decide to switch to villain, this opening the villain paths and you decide to choose the lconquer the world” villain path. Well, when you start out as a villain, no matter your level, you are essentially starting the villain story from the beginning.

There needs to be a method changing your Renown (label” as it will affect all of your faction reputations.

Now, this isn’t to say that we can’t add more to the system for when you make these types of changes, using say an Achievement earned for high Renown as a hero, that triggers certain actions or responses from certain factions / civilians when you switch to a new Renown.

It can even be something like “Hey isn’t that Lothic? Wasn’t he some great hero once?”
“Yeah, but now he is some low life Scoundrel. Let’s get going before he starts trouble”

Your character’s “game” is directly tied to your label because that is what you are known as by the world at large. When you change, you are no longer that “famous” (insert label”, but now the factions relate to you / the world sees you differently.

I don't have a problem with your basic concept of "Renown" as stated or even your ideas for how a character might eventually be able to "crossover" to other paths. I'm just making sure that co-mingling the concepts of "public fame" in with that makes complete sense.

I get that a given character will always have a certain "notoriety" with the various heroic/villainous NPC factions in the game based on the types of game mechanics being talked about here. But is that "fame" the same kind of fame that we equate IRL to simply being "well known" like Kim Kardashian (somehow) continues to be?

I think the only real problem here is that the term "fame" is perhaps being overloaded with the kind of meaning that isn't quite as precise as you might be intending here. Case in point I think a world famous hero turning villain would actually become MORE famous than ever because people would say "OMG! That's the guy that turned evil!!?!?!?" Sure the new villain might be at the bottom of the list reputation-wise among his new villainous buddies (because they don't trust him yet) but he'd still be ultra-famous (or perhaps infamous) to the city at large.

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Lothic wrote: I think the

Lothic wrote:
I think the only real problem here is that the term "fame" is perhaps being overloaded with the kind of meaning that isn't quite as "precise" as you might be intending here. Case in point I think a world famous hero turning villain would actually become MORE famous than ever because people would say "OMG! That's the guy that turned evil!!?!?!?" Sure the new villain might be at the bottom reputation-wise among his new villain buddies, but he'd still be ultra-famous to the city at large.[/quotre]

I understand and acknowledge it isn’t perfect.

Dont think of it as just famous. Think of it as the reputation for that type of renown. It isn’t Howe famous Tannim222 is, it’s how well known as a hero he is. When he ceases to do popular things as a hero, he slowly becomes not so popular as a hero.

He fades from the lime light.

The switch is granular and not a grandiose, instant change. Your character’s Renown fades and then can be rebuilt to a desired level.

This allows for players to fine tune there they want their character to be. Maybe you had a famous hero, but you, for whatever reason, want it to be less famous in the city at large and becomes more of a “local” hero.


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Tannim222]Lothic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
Lothic wrote:

I think the only real problem here is that the term "fame" is perhaps being overloaded with the kind of meaning that isn't quite as "precise" as you might be intending here. Case in point I think a world famous hero turning villain would actually become MORE famous than ever because people would say "OMG! That's the guy that turned evil!!?!?!?" Sure the new villain might be at the bottom reputation-wise among his new villain buddies, but he'd still be ultra-famous to the city at large.

I understand and acknowledge it isn’t perfect.

Dont think of it as just famous. Think of it as the reputation for that type of renown. It isn’t Howe famous Tannim222 is, it’s how well known as a hero he is. When he ceases to do popular things as a hero, he slowly becomes not so popular as a hero.

He fades from the lime light.

The switch is granular and not a grandiose, instant change. Your character’s Renown fades and then can be rebuilt to a desired level.

This allows for players to fine tune there they want their character to be. Maybe you had a famous hero, but you, for whatever reason, want it to be less famous in the city at large and becomes more of a “local” hero.

Again that's all fine and well. I'm just highlighting the idea that "public fame" is a fundamentally different concept than "public popularity". A famous person can become more or less popular over time, but they rarely become less famous. For example Bill Cosby is still a famous person despite his real life fall from grace - we didn't forget who he was just because he did bad things. I hope you can see what I'm driving at here - not trying to be picky, just precise.

Perhaps if you stick more to the idea that Renown is based on "relative popularity" rather than "public fame" then this might work better.

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This post is great to me for

This post is great to me for one big reason. Different flavors of heroes and villains. You can create a redemption arc only to fall back into their old ways, breaking the hearts of those that believed him him/her. Or fall from grace, only to try to come back to heroism only to be met with cold stares of the people that he/she hurt.

Comics are crazy, let's not forget how Venom. You know, freaking spider goop monster. Becomes a good guy. Or the Joker (through the use of drugs mind you) becomes a good guy.

This does make a good point though. Does the narrative just forget that the player was once a villain or a hero? Will some specific individuals hate the player's character because of what they specifically did to them in another mission? Even though over all they are a good person? Causing the faction as a whole to like the player

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Renkage wrote:
Renkage wrote:

This does make a good point though. Does the narrative just forget that the player was once a villain or a hero? Will some specific individuals hate the player's character because of what they specifically did to them in another mission? Even though over all they are a good person? Causing the faction as a whole to like the player

As Grimfox was trying to get at back in Post #5 I don't think the game needs to attempt to be "smart" enough to have the NPCs deal with multiple past lives of characters who have jumped across multiple Renown pathways. From CoT's point of view it only needs to be able to react to your character according to your current Renown value on whatever Renown path you're on right now.

Let me try to establish a reasonable hypothetical based on reasonable assumptions. Let's start with a brand new hero and call him Captain Superpants (CS). Let's say he does a bunch of wonderful hero stuff and eventually becomes a hero of tip-top Renown. By making it to the top of the hero path we can assume at the very least the game might award him a badge that's related to that achievement so we can say CS has now gotten that badge.

Later on let's say the player decides they want CS to do a "fall from grace" and become a villain. The player does whatever it takes game-wise to transition CS from the hero path to the villain path. Eventually let's say CS has spent enough time to get roughly half-way up the villain path.

OK at this point the game's NPCs will only need to recognize and react to CS as if he's a mid-level Renown villain. Yes he still has his old hero badge, yes we the player knows CS used to be a top hero, but again the game doesn't need to be smart enough to know, "Hey that's CS that used to be hero but now is a villain". If this were a table-top game with a human GM those kinds of multi-faceted historical details about characters could be accounted for. But as a relatively limited computer based MMO I don't think it needs to be that robust. This is not a knock against MWM per se - like Grimfox said I think this kind of thing would be pretty hard for -any- computer game like this to have to deal with.

So ultimately if we want a character to do a "fall from grace" or be "redeemed" most of that is just going to be in the player's head from a RP point of view. The game doesn't need to keep a running tally of all the different Renown paths that a given character used to be on. Sure I might ultimately have a character who possesses all of the following:

  • top Renown hero badge
  • top Renown vigilante badge
  • top Renown scoundrel badge
  • top Renown villain badge

because I've taken the time to traverse all of those pathways one-by-one. But if that character is currently sitting on the villain Renown path the game will only need to react to that character as a villain, period.

Hope this helps clarify this point about characters with "multi-Renown" situations.

P.S. I don't think I used the word "fame" once in this post, until now of course. ;)

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Did I miss something? Is

Did I miss something? Is Lothic part of the development team now?

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Zerohour wrote:
Zerohour wrote:

Did I miss something? Is Lothic part of the development team now?

Only in my mind of course. ;)

I can still offer suggestions and opinions as much as anyone else here. The actual Devs are always free to either pay attention or ignore me as they see fit.

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This is an interesting update

This is an interesting update! As someone who likes to play from a story point of view, I love the potential of these interconnecting systems -- and especially the huge boost it gives to alting as endgame. It does sound like it could make things a bit more difficult for badging, though.

I have three questions:

1) What causes Renown to increase (or decrease, if that's possible)? At first I thought this was to do with level, but then you said 'it will be possible to have a low level character that is extremely well known around the city, or a high level character that is relatively unknown.'

2) What's the difference between Reputation and Bias? They seem as though they are two words referring to the same thing: how a faction reacts to one's character based on his/her actions.

3) Would I be right in assuming that examples of Achievements that change Reputation/Bias would include such accomplishments as defeating x of a particular group or perhaps completing certain specific arcs?

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Sorry, one more question:

Sorry, one more question:

When you say 'A Famous Hero might attract civilians to stop and take a picture or tell others about some recent activity of your character. A Famous Villain may cause civilians to run or stop at a distance to scream for help.' are those just conceptual illustrations to help explain the idea, or will NPCs in the game actually react to our characters' Renown in this way?

Also, love the fact that the illustration for this update includes a blueside, redside, and goldside. ;-)

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Renkage wrote:
Renkage wrote:

This does make a good point though. Does the narrative just forget that the player was once a villain or a hero? Will some specific individuals hate the player's character because of what they specifically did to them in another mission? Even though over all they are a good person? Causing the faction as a whole to like the player

In addition to what Lothic posted above, it's important to remember that this is a game (as Tannim also pointed out, re: the system's limitations). Everything that's in the game was put there by the devs. I.e. Everything there requires development man hours. There's a reason that, in most games, NPCs hand out a mission, or some information, and then are never seen again. It's much simpler than having people keep track of these NPCs and the continuity to (hopefully) make certain everything meshes well and makes sense. All of this becomes exponentially more difficult if this NPC interaction is dependent on some kind of alignment / bias / renown decisions made at some point during the previous interaction.

It'd be cool to have, but overall likely not worth it given what those man hours could provid elsewhere.

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To answer Cinnder’s Qs, or

To answer Cinnder’s Qs, or answer them as best I can:

1. Renown has its own progression separate from levels that is tied to your rewards. You will be able to adjust this. Right now, you can’t decrease your Renown once it’s earned.

I espoused on the possibility in this thread because Lothic brought up being able to switch Renown. Which we can add eventually, just not at launch. Then there will be a method out into the game where you compete certain content which will cause your Renown to reduce back to 0 where you can than switch to another Renown.

2. Bias is based off Reputation. Bias is how NPCs react to your character. Your Renown sets your initial Rep and thus, the initial Bias NPCs have toward your character. Then you can perform actions and earn Achievements with factions which can than adjust your Rep and thus various factions’ Bias toward your character.

3. There can be a number of ways to earn an Achievement that will affect your character’s Rep with various factions.

4. These were examples only to illustrate what is possible. But that doesn’t mean we won’t see these types of actions in the game because they are technically possible for us to implement.


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What would have been cool if

What would have been cool if all mission content was unlocked based off your Renown/Rep and not your level range. That way you could actually do all the content in the game on a single character just by going from Hero to Villain or visa versa.

I mean, who cares if your lv 50 and have all your powers unlocked and roflstomping enemies while trying to work your way up the new alignment. Just make the missions scale to your level and that's good enough.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

To answer Cinnder’s Qs, or answer them as best I can....

Thanks for the clarifications as always, Tannim. When you say Renown progression is tied to rewards, is that mish-completion-type rewards, or subscription/store-purchaseable rewards?

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

To answer Cinnder’s Qs, or answer them as best I can....

Thanks for the clarifications as always, Tannim. When you say Renown progression is tied to rewards, is that mish-completion-type rewards, or subscription/store-purchaseable rewards?

Rewards in general is anything your character can earn. Now you won’t be able to use anything your character earns like drops to improve Renown but it has its own progression.


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Good write-up and a nice bit

Good write-up and a nice bit of information. Though when I first saw the head line my mind immediately went here instead, and wondered if you would be comparing to another game now. Considering the 2 at the end it certainly looks intentional to me.

It's certainly nice to know the many different layers to the whole "reputation" cake.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Though when I first saw the head line my mind immediately went here instead, and wondered if you would be comparing to another game now. Considering the 2 at the end it certainly looks intentional to me.

The Kickstarter Update #17 was named "Beyond Good and Evil". I figure the "2" for this update was just meant to be taken as an "update to the update". The fact that there's another game out there also named that is probably completely coincidental.

Remember the Devs of this game tend to loathe comparing it to any other game, especially CoH or the other spiritual successor projects. I would basically never assume "comparisons to other games" to be my first guess about anything the MWM folks say here in the open forums.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Though when I first saw the head line my mind immediately went here instead, and wondered if you would be comparing to another game now. Considering the 2 at the end it certainly looks intentional to me.

The Kickstarter Update #17 was named "Beyond Good and Evil". I figure the "2" for this update was just meant to be taken as an "update to the update". The fact that there's another game out there also named that is probably completely coincidental.

Remember the Devs of this game tend to loathe comparing it to any other game, especially CoH or the other spiritual successor projects. I would basically never assume "comparisons to other games" to be my first guess about anything the MWM folks say here in the open forums.

Fair enough, though expecting us to remember and/or draw parallels to an update 6.5 years ago is a bit of a stretch imo.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Lothic wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

Though when I first saw the head line my mind immediately went here instead, and wondered if you would be comparing to another game now. Considering the 2 at the end it certainly looks intentional to me.

The Kickstarter Update #17 was named "Beyond Good and Evil". I figure the "2" for this update was just meant to be taken as an "update to the update". The fact that there's another game out there also named that is probably completely coincidental.

Remember the Devs of this game tend to loathe comparing it to any other game, especially CoH or the other spiritual successor projects. I would basically never assume "comparisons to other games" to be my first guess about anything the MWM folks say here in the open forums.

Fair enough, though expecting us to remember and/or draw parallels to an update 6.5 years ago is a bit of a stretch imo.

LMAO... true enough about it being 6.5 years ago.

On the other hand the link to the ancient Kickstarter Update #17 was actually mentioned in the very first paragraph of this recent "Number 2" update. ;)

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That sounds cool. On paper.

That sounds cool. On paper. Well, probably ingame too. Two questions:

Will choices and changes marked as such? As in

NPC: "blablablasavetheworld"
Player Answer choice
A: "No, f*ck you" (+2 villain)
B: "No *shoots NPC in the head* (+5 villain, +2 renown)
C: "Yes, of course. Up up and away" (+2 hero)
D: "Meet you in a sec" (no change, aka player need to log off to get sleep and goes back to it tomorrow)

?

Just asking. I mean in my lazy example its stupid clear even without details what each answer would net you but there are alignment/karma/dark&light side point games which do make a sport out of it to make you guess what actual intention stands between several dialogue choices and more than once I fell for it by picking something that did sounded good but turned out to make my character say the opposite of what I had intended. Its annoying in an single player game but there you can reload; having my intention been misread by the game in an MMO that instantly saves that would be massively infuriating at least.

The other question:
How would a character like Homelander from "The Boys" look like in your system?

IMAGE(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/18977295/the_boys_Boys_101_64338.V2_rgb.jpg)

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1. We haven’t done the UI

1. We haven’t done the UI work on the choices yet. The system is a series of points that weights each choice for the Comp team to assign.

We have discussed placing either the numerical valise or the descriptive value (violence - minor vs violence - major for example). As well as giving the option to display or not display them. Testing will be needed to know exactly how it will be handled. But we do want to provide options.

2. I don’t know if we could properly replicate the character types like those in The Boys. As much has to do with how the world building is handled in the comic / show.

His alignment would be Violent-Dishonorable-Unlawful

But the agency would be covering up many of the actions that would portray him as such.

To the public his Renown is a Hero. To the watcher or reader he is quite the Villain.

The same as with the agency. Everything outward has the appearance of a public-serving company but the story shows the dark underbelly.

Which is to say that we can definitely write up such types of stories with factions that have the appearance of “good” and end up being “bad” and there can be what appear to be heroes associated with them that are anything but that.

That is to say, the writers can “cheat”.


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ThatWeirdo wrote:
ThatWeirdo wrote:

Will choices and changes marked as such? As in

NPC: "blablablasavetheworld"
Player Answer choice
A: "No, f*ck you" (+2 villain)
B: "No *shoots NPC in the head* (+5 villain, +2 renown)
C: "Yes, of course. Up up and away" (+2 hero)
D: "Meet you in a sec" (no change, aka player need to log off to get sleep and goes back to it tomorrow)

Just to be precise, from what i remember, the answers will not be as direct as you wrote it :)
I remember reading something like "we'll never answer for your character but you'll be able to answer the NPC in the way you "want" like "Say you can't do that / tell him you are not silly / don't answer...at least not with words *punch him in the face*" etc etc. I'll try to find out where i read that. Maybe in the update concerning the path and the tips or maybe the dialog system...

---EDIT---
Find it : ^^ in a break news i wrote on titanscity.com (https://titanscity.com/precisions-systeme-de-dialogue/)
The original comment is there : https://cityoftitans.com/comment/135458#comment-135458


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Thanks & insightful both of

Thanks & insightful both of you :)

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ThatWeirdo wrote:
ThatWeirdo wrote:

How would a character like Homelander from "The Boys" look like in your system?

Tannim222 wrote:

I don’t know if we could properly replicate the character types like those in The Boys. As much has to do with how the world building is handled in the comic / show.

Yeah Grimfox, Darth Fez and I already specifically talked about "The Boys" scenario back in posts #5, 6, 12 and 17 of this thread and we basically came up with the same answer Tannim did which was it's something the game probably won't (or can't) support for player characters. It's going to be hard enough for the game to handle just one layer of character alignment without keeping track of player characters who might have multiple "public personas" versus "private personas".

At least Tannim did add that it could be a scenario that they could "cheat" for NPCs based on how they write up various stories in the game.

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For the difficulty factor

For the difficulty factor mentioned above, it probably couldn't be done, but I think it would be really neat to be able to have multiple identities.

A famous hero who also has a persona as a villain (using a different costume). Obviously that could be done by just having 2 characters with linked backstories. But I still think it would be nice.

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Soulwind wrote:
Soulwind wrote:

For the difficulty factor mentioned above, it probably couldn't be done, but I think it would be really neat to be able to have multiple identities.

A famous hero who also has a persona as a villain (using a different costume). Obviously that could be done by just having 2 characters with linked backstories. But I still think it would be nice.

For what it's worth I have many character concepts (either old ones from CoH or new ones I'm planning for CoT) that have very different "public versus private" personas. I'm going to handle them the same way I've always handled it when the game system I'm playing can't account for what I want it to do - I'm just going to RP it. ;)

Like you say there's a bunch you can do with multiple costumes or multiple characters. I did a "multiple personalities" type character in CoH by having two separate characters (one bluesider and one redsider) who looked 100% identical. When she changed personalities I just swapped characters. I see no reason we couldn't do that in CoT in terms of having two unique characters with unique alignment profiles.

Ultimately I think CoT will be as flexible as humanly possible for character development. It'll just be up to us to "fill in the cracks" via RP and imagination.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

LMAO... true enough about it being 6.5 years ago.

On the other hand, the link to the ancient Kickstarter Update #17 was actually mentioned in the very first paragraph of this recent "Number 2" update. ;)

And Winter has been kindly keeping our 'official' History thread alive. https://cityoftitans.com/forum/kickstarter-update-reference-list so we can look things up.

Be Well!
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I'm wondering how this will

I'm wondering how this will affect the composition of supergroups.
Will they be restricted to having their members all being from one category of Renown, or can they include more than one of those categories?
Or could the membership be tied to faction Reputation, i.e. all members have to have such and such level of reputation (either higher or lower) with a specified faction?
Could a supergroup be created that ignores Renown and Reputation, i.e. the membership would be independent of these labels?

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Good question ! Andi will add

Good question ! Andi will add one : if a super hero can't group with a super villain for any mission (i supposed), why not authorizing them to group for the mission of the faction they have "in common" ?


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Soulwind wrote:

For the difficulty factor mentioned above, it probably couldn't be done, but I think it would be really neat to be able to have multiple identities.

A famous hero who also has a persona as a villain (using a different costume). Obviously that could be done by just having 2 characters with linked backstories. But I still think it would be nice.

For what it's worth I have many character concepts (either old ones from CoH or new ones I'm planning for CoT) that have very different "public versus private" personas. I'm going to handle them the same way I've always handled it when the game system I'm playing can't account for what I want it to do - I'm just going to RP it. ;)

Like you say there's a bunch you can do with multiple costumes or multiple characters. I did a "multiple personalities" type character in CoH by having two separate characters (one bluesider and one redsider) who looked 100% identical. When she changed personalities I just swapped characters. I see no reason we couldn't do that in CoT in terms of having two unique characters with unique alignment profiles.

Ultimately I think CoT will be as flexible as humanly possible for character development. It'll just be up to us to "fill in the cracks" via RP and imagination.

IDK. Currently the typical player heroes in all superhero MMOs are kinda like that (from a gameplay support perspective):

IMAGE(https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/the-tick.jpg)

:D

I used to think of background stuff for my characters but it always felt like fighting the gameplay so I probably have a new batch of mind-wiped blank slates that only know punching coming up next.

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ThatWeirdo wrote:
ThatWeirdo wrote:

IDK. Currently the typical player heroes in all superhero MMOs are kinda like that (from a gameplay support perspective):

:D

I used to think of background stuff for my characters but it always felt like fighting the gameplay so I probably have a new batch of mind-wiped blank slates that only know punching coming up next.

Turns out one of the actual strengths of games like CoH/CoT is that you can play the game in all sorts of ways. Sure some people like to RP and write up huge backstories for their characters while others barely spend 30 seconds creating a "character" without bothering with RP at all. Many people who don't care to RP often treat games like this more like a FPS where their multiple "characters" are basically like their single "player avatar".

I ultimately don't care if a given player likes to RP or not but it does bother me when people want to have all achievements in the game (like badges) "shared" among all their characters on the same account. These games (for better or worse) are still built on the idea of unique CHARACTERS just like the old school RPGs. Again I don't care if you want to socially RP or not but the idea of all of your alts "sharing" stuff between them is basically ridiculous. It'd be like if I had two table-top D&D characters and saying that since one of them found a +5 Vorpal blade that ALL of my characters that I've ever played in any D&D campaign should instantly be able to use it.

So whether you want to RP or not we are still playing a game with unique characters with unique identities, not collective console avatars.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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eislor wrote:
eislor wrote:

I'm wondering how this will affect the composition of supergroups.
Will they be restricted to having their members all being from one category of Renown, or can they include more than one of those categories?
Or could the membership be tied to faction Reputation, i.e. all members have to have such and such level of reputation (either higher or lower) with a specified faction?
Could a supergroup be created that ignores Renown and Reputation, i.e. the membership would be independent of these labels?

I seem to recall that they've said that they won't put any restriction on who can group ("combat" groups/raids and SG) with who.

Pretty sure they've come to the conclusion that they won't be able to make a fair system in this regard.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
eislor wrote:

I'm wondering how this will affect the composition of supergroups.
Will they be restricted to having their members all being from one category of Renown, or can they include more than one of those categories?
Or could the membership be tied to faction Reputation, i.e. all members have to have such and such level of reputation (either higher or lower) with a specified faction?
Could a supergroup be created that ignores Renown and Reputation, i.e. the membership would be independent of these labels?

I seem to recall that they've said that they won't put any restriction on who can group ("combat" groups/raids and SG) with who.

Pretty sure they've come to the conclusion that they won't be able to make a fair system in this regard.

Sometimes it's just easier to let players handle things like this.

Sure the MWM Devs might be able create a game system that could somehow "compare" one character's overall Renown, Reputation and Alignment values and decide whether that character is too "good" or "evil" to be a member of a team/group. But no matter how such a system is defined there would be some players out there who'd argue that the thresholds of that system are too strict or too lenient for whatever reason. This is the ironic problem when you have a game like CoT with a "grey" alignment system - who is to say one alignment value is too big or small one way or the other.

So I'd rather have players simply decide who's going to be on their teams and/or in their SGs based on their own criteria. If a SG leader only wants people who have maxed out Honor or Violence values in their SG let them decide that. On the other hand if a team leader doesn't care what your alignment values are for a given mission then that shouldn't be a restricting factor for who could actually be on a team.

Now of course if you are the only villain on a team of heroes you might have to expect that the game is not going to have to let that be a "pleasant experience" in terms of your character progression. That team will likely favor doing heroic missions that mostly benefit heroic playstyles. Again it should be the players' choice to "play against the grain" if they want to. It'll make the Devs' job a hundred times easier in the long run.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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For general content groups

For general content groups are as described in the update.

The system allows for possible cross-renown content in the future, “world events” not withstanding.

I don’t want to get into our plans for Super Teams at the moment as we have our concept down, the implementation is a different beast. I don’t want to mislead anyone unintentionally. But this alone should be hint enough that we intend for different set ups for Super Teams than general content groups.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

For general content groups are as described in the update.

The system allows for possible cross-renown content in the future, “world events” not withstanding.

I don’t want to get into our plans for Super Teams at the moment as we have our concept down, the implementation is a different beast. I don’t want to mislead anyone unintentionally. But this alone should be hint enough that we intend for different set ups for Super Teams than general content groups.

Hmmm, this implies one of three possibilities:

1: That there will be "supergroup content" that will only check that characters are members of the same supergroup, although perhaps with some requirement for the supergroup...
2. That being members of the same supergroup might trump alignment and/or rep for certain content, as long as someone in the team/supergroup meets the criteria...

Or,
3. That I am missing some other obvious possibility. ^_^

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
ThatWeirdo wrote:

IDK. Currently the typical player heroes in all superhero MMOs are kinda like that (from a gameplay support perspective):

:D

I used to think of background stuff for my characters but it always felt like fighting the gameplay so I probably have a new batch of mind-wiped blank slates that only know punching coming up next.

Turns out one of the actual strengths of games like CoH/CoT is that you can play the game in all sorts of ways. Sure some people like to RP and write up huge backstories for their characters while others barely spend 30 seconds creating a "character" without bothering with RP at all. Many people who don't care to RP often treat games like this more like a FPS where their multiple "characters" are basically like their single "player avatar".

I ultimately don't care if a given player likes to RP or not but it does bother me when people want to have all achievements in the game (like badges) "shared" among all their characters on the same account. These games (for better or worse) are still built on the idea of unique CHARACTERS just like the old school RPGs. Again I don't care if you want to socially RP or not but the idea of all of your alts "sharing" stuff between them is basically ridiculous. It'd be like if I had two table-top D&D characters and saying that since one of them found a +5 Vorpal blade that ALL of my characters that I've ever played in any D&D campaign should instantly be able to use it.

So whether you want to RP or not we are still playing a game with unique characters with unique identities, not collective console avatars.

Such a slowly grinding de-evolution can be observed with WoW. Back then: If you want a mount with a character go get it with that character and better be prepared to work for it. Today *bling* all mounts ever gotten on any char available for all characters (excluding class mounts AFAIK).

Even though I could I would never dare to let one character touch one of the personal mounts of another character just because I can now. It feels just wrong. If I would still play WoW that is. Freaking faceless bore it became from a company which sold their soul. ... Classic was refreshing though.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don’t want to get into our plans for Super Teams at the moment as we have our concept down, the implementation is a different beast. I don’t want to mislead anyone unintentionally. But this alone should be hint enough that we intend for different set ups for Super Teams than general content groups.

Remind me :
- Super Teams is like a guild,
- Group (or Team ?) is a pool of buddies grouping together
- Super league is an alliance between Super Teams

Is that right ?


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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don’t want to get into our plans for Super Teams at the moment as we have our concept down, the implementation is a different beast. I don’t want to mislead anyone unintentionally. But this alone should be hint enough that we intend for different set ups for Super Teams than general content groups.

Remind me :
- Super Teams is like a guild,
- Group (or Team ?) is a pool of buddies grouping together
- Super league is an alliance between Super Teams

Is that right ?

Group = 1-8 people grouped together
Super Team = guild
League -= coalition of Super Teams


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:
TitansCity wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I don’t want to get into our plans for Super Teams at the moment as we have our concept down, the implementation is a different beast. I don’t want to mislead anyone unintentionally. But this alone should be hint enough that we intend for different set ups for Super Teams than general content groups.

Remind me :
- Super Teams is like a guild,
- Group (or Team ?) is a pool of buddies grouping together
- Super league is an alliance between Super Teams

Is that right ?

Group = 1-8 people grouped together
Super Team = guild
League -= coalition of Super Teams

Trust me I'm well aware why MWM did this name-change thing; we've talked about this serious subject many times before on this forum. The more MWM can change things from that "other game" the less likely "you know who" would have grounds to hassle MWM with legal shenanigans. It's important and it's ultimately a good idea all things considered.

On the other hand I still accept that some of us will have a relatively hard time changing out one set of terms for another. It's like back when I was big into paintball and there'd be certain fields we'd go to where they insisted on calling the paint guns "markers" because, you know, the word "marker" sounded less violent or whatever. I get what they were going for but it didn't really stop most people there from just calling them "paint guns" like we always had for years.

I guess all I'm saying is just have the patience to let some of us keep using the "old terms" at least until CoT has launched and we've had plenty of time to adjust... like maybe a couple more decades. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Inf means influenza, right?

Inf means influenza, right? Everybody's got it.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Inf means influenza, right? Everybody's got it.

CoT still means Circle of Thorns to me... *shrugs*

Like I implied I think most of the "confusion of terms" will start to fade away once we finally have the new game in hand to play.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Group = 1-8 people grouped together
Super Team = guild
League -= coalition of Super Teams

Personally I would have gone with...
Squad=A small group coming together for some reason. Suicide Squad. (Basic Teams)
League=A large group of like minded individuals. Justice League, League of Shadows. (Basic Guilds)
Coalition=A Temporary Alliance of large forces. Hero and Villain League's coming together to stop global threats.

Plus, Super Team doesn't wouldn't really work well for a Villain Guild. Just doesn't sound right.

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Cooltastic wrote:
Cooltastic wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Group = 1-8 people grouped together
Super Team = guild
League -= coalition of Super Teams

Personally I would have gone with...
Squad=A small group coming together for some reason. Suicide Squad. (Basic Teams)
League=A large group of like minded individuals. Justice League, League of Shadows. (Basic Guilds)
Coalition=A Temporary Alliance of large forces. Hero and Villain League's coming together to stop global threats.

Plus, Super Team doesn't wouldn't really work well for a Villain Guild. Just doesn't sound right.

Not saying you're "right" or "wrong" about this but everyone's going to have an opinion about these things and MWM is never going to make people 100% happy about it. I'd bet there were people who didn't like the original CoH names for all these things either (i.e. Team, Supergroup, Coalition). Regardless I'm sure in the long run we'll all get used to whatever CoT calls these things.

BTW as I just mentioned CoH already used the term "Coalition" so you can be certain that word will -not- be used at least in this context. Remember the main point of "renaming" all these things was to pretty much make sure CoT is as "different" from CoH as reasonably possible.

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Actually I believe CoX uses

Actually I believe CoX uses the word "League" in the same way MWM is currently planning to use it, for the multi-group coalitions.

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No, COX uses "Coalition" for

No, COX uses "Coalition" for a group of SGs. I remember using the word Coalie...for members of the coalition. Either that or I'm manufacturing memories.

*The whole discussion is moot, I think.* These words are exceedingly common words, not something used uniquely like "influence" What do you call a cluster of 8 people, A group or a team. Literally a group or team of people. There's nothing special or unique in that language. Plus group and team are used in just about every mmo or multiplayer game. Now if a game like "Crowfall" used the word "Murder" (the term for a cluster of crows, for good reason if you want to deep dive on crow social dynamics) for a group of players. And another developer made a Crowfall like game that also used the term "Murder" for a group of players, that's grounds for a legal confrontation.

Personally, I feel like SG should be used for PUGs and Teams should be used for "guilds" to better describe the difference between the unorganized and more fluid "group" and the more stable and organized "team"

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CoX uses the word "League"

CoX uses the word "League" for combining "Groups/Teams" together. I had forgot you could create a Coalition between SuperGroups, I don't even remember what doing so really did besides give everyone a Coalition Channel to chat between guilds.

But CoX uses League for combining 6 teams of 8 together for running world content.

So my suggestion was change SuperGroups from CoX into League's for CoT and change League's from CoX into Coalitions for CoT.

As for a word to replace CoX's Coalitions, I would go with Legion.

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Cooltastic wrote:
Cooltastic wrote:

CoX uses the word "League" for combining "Groups/Teams" together. I had forgot you could create a Coalition between SuperGroups, I don't even remember what doing so really did besides give everyone a Coalition Channel to chat between guilds.

But CoX uses League for combining 6 teams of 8 together for running world content.

So my suggestion was change SuperGroups from CoX into League's for CoT and change League's from CoX into Coalitions for CoT.

As for a word to replace CoX's Coalitions, I would go with Legion.

In the old game:

Teams 2-8 people

Super Group: guild

Coalition: partnership between 2 or more Super Groups

League: multiple teams (up to 6) grouped together for end game raids.

For CoT:

Group: 1-8 people. Yes when solo you are considered a group of 1.

Super Team: guild

League: Partnerships between Super Teams. This will actually have a function in the game beyond permissions for accessing bases.

We don’t have raid content yet for multiple groups working together yet, that will likely be Coalition since the term means a temporary partnership between groups of people.

We felt these terms were more accurate to their function in the game.


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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Inf means influenza, right? Everybody's got it.

CoT still means Circle of Thorns to me... *shrugs*.

And nCoV means novel City of Villains.

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Cooltastic wrote:
Cooltastic wrote:

CoX uses the word "League" for combining "Groups/Teams" together. I had forgot you could create a Coalition between SuperGroups, I don't even remember what doing so really did besides give everyone a Coalition Channel to chat between guilds.

But CoX uses League for combining 6 teams of 8 together for running world content.

Ironically I suffered the reverse bit of memory-loss...

I definitely remembered the term "Coalition" in CoH because I was in many of them across multiple Supergroups. Having a Coalition Channel was very helpful in those those days.

On the other hand I seemed to have completely forgotten that there was even an official thing called a "League" in CoH even though I participated in just about every end game raid and big "world content" that the game offered (i.e. Hami Raids, Cathedral of Pain Trials, etc.). I suppose I was technically in a bunch of "Leagues" but I/we never actually called them that.

The big difference was that a "Coalition" was a lasting organizational thing whereas a "League" was a way (I guess if you needed one) to describe multiple teams temporarily working on one task. I would have just called that "multiple teams temporarily working on one task" - not really sure that needs a fancy term that makes everything more confusing.

Go figure. :)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'm in the same boat as

I'm in the same boat as Lothic. I had completely forgotten about the League term despite having participated in many. A lot of the stuff from the last couple years of CoX was all a blur to me. I was finishing college and entering the work world. I found some screenshots recently that I had zero recollection of taking or even playing. It was shocking that something that was so prominent in my life had aspects that I had so completely forgotten.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I'm in the same boat as Lothic. I had completely forgotten about the League term despite having participated in many. A lot of the stuff from the last couple years of CoX was all a blur to me. I was finishing college and entering the work world. I found some screenshots recently that I had zero recollection of taking or even playing. It was shocking that something that was so prominent in my life had aspects that I had so completely forgotten.

And now, we do it every weekend, because lots of people show up to pounce the naughty spawn.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

A lot of the stuff from the last couple years of CoX was all a blur to me. I was finishing college and entering the work world.

Considering how much MMO playing I've done in the last 20-ish years I'm thankful that I finished school and established my career back in the early 90s. I honestly don't think I would've "gragi-tated" from school if time-wasting games like CoH had existed back then. I don't know how the younglings manage to juggle all the extra distractions these days.

Fireheart wrote:

And now, we do it every weekend, because lots of people show up to pounce the naughty spawn.

I assume you're referring to the "pirate" CoH Homecoming servers. I've still managed to avoid checking them out mostly because I still don't feel like re-investing the thousands of hours it took earning (almost) literally every badge in the game twice on two main badge-hunting characters. To this day I still pretend Bug Hunter and Passport were never real badges to begin with. At least I have good reasoning for my madness about that theory - those were the only two badges that required something happen OUTSIDE of the game to be earned. ;)

I'm glad people are still interested in the old game because hopefully that'll mean there'll be interest in this game... eventually. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

And now, we do it every weekend, because lots of people show up to pounce the naughty spawn.

Actually, Grimfox and I (and the rest of the Legion) meet regularly in GW2. Even with max-level characters who have seen the whole map of the world, there are still some fun things to do as a Guild. So, we get together and do them, earn points, and let Sleepy go mad, redesigning the Base.

Be Well!
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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Actually, Grimfox and I (and the rest of the Legion) meet regularly in GW2. Even with max-level characters who have seen the whole map of the world, there are still some fun things to do as a Guild. So, we get together and do them, earn points, and let Sleepy go mad, redesigning the Base.

Ah, thanks for the contextual info that you were referring to a completely different game. Apparently my ability to mind-read is a bit faulty today. ;)

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Ah, thanks for the contextual info that you were referring to a completely different game. Apparently my ability to mind-read is a bit faulty today. ;)

I don't hold it against you, Lothic. We all get out of context occasionally. Just one more challenge to having a good discussion. ;)
Just one more challenge to our courage in expressing an opinion. Which is why I simply supplied the context. I try, but my mind-reading powers are pretty iffy, too.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Considering how much MMO playing I've done in the last 20-ish years I'm thankful that I finished school and established my career back in the early 90s. I honestly don't think I would've "gragi-tated" from school if time-wasting games like CoH had existed back then. I don't know how the younglings manage to juggle all the extra distractions these days.

I mean. Most don't try to juggle. They let their responsibilities land on the floor while just carrying the distractions. Coming from someone who was like that. Nothing like having to fix my sleep schedule by staying up 24 hours twice in one week because borderline video game addiction. That may sound like a brag, but it's not. It was god awful!... Much better now-a-days. Gained some responsibilities that made me restrict how much I play video games.

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Tossing in a late on-topic (?

Tossing in a late on-topic (?) comment. The proposed "alignment and reputation" system is going to be a neat thing to play with; thank you dev team! I can see it supporting and guiding storytelling and PR, as well as more mechanical mission/content options. If we're discussing the fine details without arguing the core, that's usually a good indicator that the system is conceptually on-track.

Just a vote of confidence from my perspective. :)

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The real question is:

The real question is:

What happens if I don't save the cat from the tree... :c

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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

The real question is:

What happens if I don't save the cat from the tree... :c

So is that CoT's version of "If a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it does it make a sound?" ;)

The good news is that it's a cat so it doesn't really care about you in particular and will wait until the next hero comes along. Cats are shamelessly fickle like that...

P.S. I actually like cats especially because they are aloof and act like they couldn't care less about you. Dogs are fine too but they can be a bit blindly sycophantic for my tastes.

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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

The real question is:
What happens if I don't save the cat from the tree... :c

Right ! The dialog system takes care of the alignments, but what about actions during mission ? what about the "context" like "i forget the mission" or "i didn't succeed in the time i had" ? So many elements they can be take in account to modify the alignement :)


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cloganart wrote:
cloganart wrote:

The real question is:

What happens if I don't save the cat from the tree... :c

Stupid hero-eating trees.

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Mewtoo (the villain)

Mewtoo (the villain) questions this insouciant placement of cats on organic pedestals. The cat will save itself and pay its own falling-damage medical bills.

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Cats don't take falling

Cats don't take falling damage.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Cats don't take falling damage.

Ironically a fall from the average tree (20 or 30 feet) can be pretty bad for cats because they typically don't have time to react in that distance. But if they fall from a height of more than roughly 50 feet or higher they actually have a better chance to survive with relatively few injuries. Supposedly the "official record holder" was a cat that survived a 46-story fall without apparent injury!

The reason is that once they start to fall they instinctively rotate their feet downward and relax their bodies which spreads the force of impact across their major bones/muscles. Also their relatively small furry bodies makes their overall terminal velocity much smaller than it would be for an average human. So if the cat has the few seconds it needs to "prepare" for impact it could fall from a 100 foot cliff or even a mile - it would have the same chances for survival at that point.

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I [strikethrough]stand[

I stand fall with my statements.

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25 years ago my last cat fell

25 years ago my last cat fell to its death.

It leaped poorly from a height of several feet when I was travelling. My mum couldn't afford the treatments required to fix its hip so she had it executed. Assassinated. Murdered in cold blood. Because I was not there.

But I'm totally over it, really. Obviously. And no I'm not the mysterious Catman. Why would anyone think that?

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I'd have taken Lothic for a

I'd have taken Lothic for a cat person from the start. :)

I know that people say a famous person never stops being famous but that's not true. Or at least, people stop caring about you. Maybe they know who you are but they don't care, you're no longer the "flavor of the month" or the "hot new thing". You're yesterday's hero/villain. Sure, you saved the city once but what you have done LATELY?!

I could see Renown as being like that. You could fade into obscurity to where you would show up on one of those "Where are they now?" articles. In a city like Titan where crazy heroics are an everyday thing, it would be easy for even the most famous heroes to be forgotten or ignored over time.

So I could easily see Renown being something that can go up or down. Maybe it's something that fades over time unless it's maintained.

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Atama wrote:
Atama wrote:

I'd have taken Lothic for a cat person from the start. :)

I don't hate dogs but I do prefer cats. Cats don't "blindly worship" us like dogs do - it's a quality that I tend to respect. If they love you it's because they want to love you. ;)

Atama wrote:

I know that people say a famous person never stops being famous but that's not true. Or at least, people stop caring about you. Maybe they know who you are but they don't care, you're no longer the "flavor of the month" or the "hot new thing". You're yesterday's hero/villain. Sure, you saved the city once but what you have done LATELY?!

I could see Renown as being like that. You could fade into obscurity to where you would show up on one of those "Where are they now?" articles. In a city like Titan where crazy heroics are an everyday thing, it would be easy for even the most famous heroes to be forgotten or ignored over time.

So I could easily see Renown being something that can go up or down. Maybe it's something that fades over time unless it's maintained.

Well like I pointed out back in post #10 there's a tangible difference between fame and popularity. The question is how Renown in CoT is going to relate to these two distinct concepts.

While a person is -becoming- famous they are also usually gaining in popularity at the same time. But I contend that once a famous person starts to become "yesterday's news" and loses popularity they still usually remain famous. Like you pointed out they sometimes do those "Where are they now?" stories on a person. Why would they do that? They do it because even if the person in question has been out of the limelight for decades (zero popularity) they are -still- famous. If they weren't famous no one would bother doing a "Where are they now?" story on them. See the difference?

So if you made these things into game stats I could see Fame being a game quality that can only increase. It could never decrease. On the other hand Popularity would be the quality that could go up or down depending on what the character did over time. That's the stat that could "fade" over time. People could still know who you are (via your original Fame) but simply not think about you on a daily basis (lack of Popularity).

Again the question will be what the MWM Devs define Renown to be. Do they consider it akin to Fame (something that never decreases) or Popularity (something that can go up or down over time). This distinction is important when considering characters that (for example) "fall from grace". A hero that suddenly becomes a villain will likely -not- become less famous even if they likely become much less popular. In fact I'd assume a fallen hero would become -more- famous because of the fall. Renown as a "single" stat can't account for that kind of scenario.

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I figure cats pay attention

I figure cats pay attention to their owners because the cats consider us to be 'emergency rations' for the next big cat-quarantine.

Do not neglect the felines, or you might just be on the menu.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I figure cats pay attention to their owners because the cats consider us to be 'emergency rations' for the next big cat-quarantine.

Do not neglect the felines, or you might just be on the menu.

Cats apparently will go for your arms/shoulders first even if there is other food available. But to be fair dogs will eat you as well if they have no alternative. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Atama wrote:

I'd have taken Lothic for a cat person from the start. :)

I don't hate dogs but I do prefer cats. Cats don't "blindly worship" us like dogs do - it's a quality that I tend to respect. If they love you it's because they want to love you. ;)

Atama wrote:

I know that people say a famous person never stops being famous but that's not true. Or at least, people stop caring about you. Maybe they know who you are but they don't care, you're no longer the "flavor of the month" or the "hot new thing". You're yesterday's hero/villain. Sure, you saved the city once but what you have done LATELY?!

I could see Renown as being like that. You could fade into obscurity to where you would show up on one of those "Where are they now?" articles. In a city like Titan where crazy heroics are an everyday thing, it would be easy for even the most famous heroes to be forgotten or ignored over time.

So I could easily see Renown being something that can go up or down. Maybe it's something that fades over time unless it's maintained.

Well like I pointed out back in post #10 there's a tangible difference between fame and popularity. The question is how Renown in CoT is going to relate to these two distinct concepts.

While a person is -becoming- famous they are also usually gaining in popularity at the same time. But I contend that once a famous person starts to become "yesterday's news" and loses popularity they still usually remain famous. Like you pointed out they sometimes do those "Where are they now?" stories on a person. Why would they do that? They do it because even if the person in question has been out of the limelight for decades (zero popularity) they are -still- famous. If they weren't famous no one would bother doing a "Where are they now?" story on them. See the difference?

So if you made these things into game stats I could see Fame being a game quality that can only increase. It could never decrease. On the other hand Popularity would be the quality that could go up or down depending on what the character did over time. That's the stat that could "fade" over time. People could still know who you are (via your original Fame) but simply not think about you on a daily basis (lack of Popularity).

Again the question will be what the MWM Devs define Renown to be. Do they consider it akin to Fame (something that never decreases) or Popularity (something that can go up or down over time). This distinction is important when considering characters that (for example) "fall from grace". A hero that suddenly becomes a villain will likely -not- become less famous even if they likely become much less popular. In fact I'd assume a fallen hero would become -more- famous because of the fall. Renown as a "single" stat can't account for that kind of scenario.

I had considered the maintenance of Renown aspect. For example, originally, the old game’s “inf” concept was that you earned it but over time it would depreciate, including if you were off-line. It wasn’t a currency but a way of tracking how well known your hero was. They couldn’t work out all the various aspects they wanted to use it for., and it was eventually whittled down to little more than currency in effective use.

Now, the loss while off-line portion is probably the most harsh and easily done away with. But then this means it must reduce over time while in game by tower methods such as minimal number plot completions, and / or achievements earned.

This, if done wrong, could hurt those who enjoy role play aspects of on-line gaming. And while there are possible ways around even this, ultimately, it would make the system too obtuse because you need to follow all these rules for maintenance which means a warning system for when it begins reducing and notifications for when it is safe to not produce it any longer and so forth.

As I said much earlier in this thread, eventually, you will be able to partake in some form of content which will intentionally reduce your Renown back to 0 and allow you to switch to a new Renown which opens up the Paths available to that Renown and also affects your Faction Reps.

The basic concept for this loss and switch of Renown is that you me character is no longer performing the actions of their Renown that they’re typically known for and becoming known for doing this differently.

And, yes, there are limitations to the system and it doesn’t perfectly resemble the reality of fame and so forth. This too has been brought up previously in this thread.

There are plenty of examples of once famous people who become less recognizable by each passing generation. In a sense, these people, no longer performing the actions they were once known for, start doing something else (like retire and are doing Retirement Plots :/ ) snd their Renown as whatever they were known for, faded.

Really though, you as the player can assign whatever role play aspect to your character’s motivations are for changing how they behave and the “whys” of not being known for being a certain Renown.

It can be, your character was a Hero, you reached max level and decided to set that character aside. They are still “known” for being “that hero” whenever you pick them up again.

Maybe you decide you don’t want a high Renown, you will be able to change some things for Renown rewards that don’t let your hero climb high on Hero Renown.

Maybe you want your Hero to switch over to a Villain, eventually you will be able to do that too. And again, there are a number of ways we can simulate your character having once been known for being one Renown and having changed to another. Wether or not this will be a thing or not, is too far off to tell.
But it is possible.


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