I know some people around here are vehemently against "kill quota" missions. I'm not going to argue that those type of missions serve no purpose nor would I suggest excluding them from the game entirely. But there is one thing I've noticed about doing such content that irritates me.
You're on some map, you're trying to defeat X number of Y baddies. Often, in some games, it's not just "Defeat 10 Clockwork" but rather "Defeat 10 Clockwork Oscillators". Now, unless you're doing this as some sort of lead-in to a story where you have to defeat the Uber Oscillator or shut down the Oscillator Factory, I don't see why the mission has to specify just one specific rank or type of faction mob. Why can't these sorts of missions give me credit for every clockwork dude I defeat? Heck, I personally think when you have a "kill quota" you should get MORE credit awarded towards completing the quota for defeating higher ranked mobs. If it's "defeat 20 clockwork" you should get like 1 point towards completion for a minion, maybe more for a lt, and more for a boss. That said, I'd settle for just having to find ANY clockwork, not having to sift through the different types of them to find just the oscillators, even if bosses only count as one defeat as far as the quota cares.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
The only reason I personally dislike the classic "kill quota" mission (i.e. kill 10 rats) is that it's very, very unoriginal and boring.
But to be perfectly honest if a game was able to "spice up" that kind of mission with what you're suggesting here it wouldn't be -that- bad if used sparingly. The idea of having multiple ways to accomplish a kill quota mission (i.e. kill the equivalent of 10,000 underlings [b]OR[/b] 1,000 minions [b]OR[/b] 100 lieutenants, etc.) would at least give players multiple ways to finish the task. Obviously the game would need to allow you to kill a random mix of all those ranks to be able to "add up" to the final value of kills needed.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
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Personally I see no difference between kill quota missions and simple street level grinding. I would rather grind for a level than waste effort on "Kill 10 Rooks."
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
I was actually discussing this just recently on the WoW Classic forums as a huge flaw in that game.
"Go into the Defias camp and kill 10 Defias Looters!"
Okay, done.
"Go into the Defias camp and kill 10 Defias Pillagers!"
I killed easily that many last time I was there!
Whatever, done.
"Go into the Defias camp and kill the leader!"
Do you have Alzheimer's? I killed him twice already the last two times I was there.
Fine, done. Can we move on?
"Go into the Defias camp and steal their plans!"
I hate you.
Hopefully we can avoid that in this game.
PR Team, Forum Moderator, Live Response Team
Not sure if those kinds of missions are even in our lore at this time. But the purpose of such missions is related to the story line. In the example you gave the mission was to collect a certain number of specific parts - not just "kill" minions. You still got XP for all attacks but for them mission objective those extra targets were without meaning. Even the more generic minion missions had a story function. Examples: Interrogating a number of minions for information to forward a mission and you had to do so to a specific number to accomplish this, to get the attention of the faction boss, to discourage a faction from preying on a neighborhood, etc. NONE of these missions in CoH/CoX were simply for the purpose of "killing" but to advance a narrative.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
Maybe instead of having discreet missions of "kill x number of mooks", just give us a little automatic xp bonus for defeating x number of those mooks. So maybe every 10th Skull I defeat I get a bit of bonus XP.
As for the original post, I too am not a fan of the overuse of "defeat x" missions, but if they are rare enough and/or have a good reason for being there for narrative reasons, then I don't mind the occasional one.
City of Heroes did them either for narrative reasons or for badges. The Secret World/Secret World Legends does it for narrative too and is highly commended for its story telling. I hope we can achieve as much.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
TSW is quite immersive, and as I've said before that I enjoyed playing through the story so much the first time that I did it again for SWL. It's too bad they trimmed some of those missions to "streamline" zone content with the relaunch, including the higher difficulty dungeons.
Counter-proposal.
The common/classical Defeat X number of Y Missions gave you very obvious signaling as to how many defeats were needed. Whatever was the X number gave you the Mission Complete. No more, no less.
The counterpart to this is the Go get X from Y Missions, where the X was a random drop, and you just had to keep defeating Y until the X dropped for you. This could get REALLY tedious with absurdly low drop chances (think 2% or less) making the Mission Complete a total crapshoot.
However, between those boundaries of total certainty (the first type) and total random uncertainty (the second), there is a hybrid middle ground which you don't often find. Specifically ...
[b]Defeat at least X number of Y Mission[/b]
The idea here is that there's a minimum threshold number of defeats (say ... 10 ...) before you start getting a random chance for a Mission Complete, but then the random chance doesn't have to be "flat" beyond that point.
So, say for example and illustration purposes that the way this worked is that every defeat of Y gives you a cumulative 1% chance of getting a Mission Complete "drop" from the defeat ... but the dice don't start rolling until you've defeat X of Y.
[b]Defeat at least 10 Rooks[/b]
The way this would work is that for Rooks 1-9 you defeat, there isn't even a dice roll for each defeat ... but upon defeating Rook 10, you have a 10% chance of getting a Mission Complete.
If the Mission Complete didn't happen on Rook 10, you'd defeat Rook 11 ... and have an 11% chance of getting a Mission Complete.
If the Mission Complete didn't happen on Rook 11, you'd defeat Rook 12 ... and have an 12% chance of getting a Mission Complete.
... and so on and so forth until you get a Mission Complete.
The point here being that there's still some uncertainty factor in exactly WHEN you'll defeat "The One" that you need to in order to get a Mission Complete, but at the same time you know you won't be stuck in RNG Hell forever, totally unable to roll boxcars to save your sanity.
Note that such a fundamental underpinning concept can be ... modulated ... to produce both of the original conditions of total determinism and pure (pseudo)random chance of Mission Complete, depending on how you tailor the parameters you're feeding into the formula.
And really, let's be honest with ourselves ... any kind of Street Sweeping oriented Mission really ought to be one oriented more around a "Defeat at least X of Y" kind of dynamic, rather than one of "Defeat EXACTLY X of Y" when the point and purpose essentially amounts to Cleaning Up The Neighborhood™.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I don't really mind the kill/defeat X missions, especially if they can be attacked with other missions in a given area; defeat 10 Rooks, repair 6 broken phone booths, rescue 5 cats from trees, so I can run around in the area looking for the glowies, and defeating the enemies in the area at the same time. I think 30 is a bit high of a number for missions, as it often results in multiple people/groups running around the same area competing for respawning pods.
And what warlocc described? That whole idea of returning to the same area to defeat different specific enemies in successive stages of a mission needs to die in a fire.
~ DariusWolfe
Errant, TNT, Vibrant and Fluxion on Liberty
Didn't WoW do the same thing.
The kill 10 of this, was part of the quest story line. Yes, it kept sending you back, but you're doing what you're doing for certain reasons.
That said, I'm sure many weren't reading the quests to know that and just thought "Kill more?!" With my thought being, "What else are you going to do in the game?" :p
Another twist: [b]Clear New Bradford of Motorheads[/b], maybe keep it a small area. Gives some randomness, and a bit thematically better than "defeat 10 hellions and let the other 40 keep purse-snatching"
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
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Avatar by MikeNovember
It might be better if instead of saying "kill 10 x enemies" to say something like "kill x enemy until y". 'Y' could be anything, like "until you find z evidence" or whatever. On the back end they could have it set to 10 or any number, or they could have it as a percent drop on each kill, with a super small chance on the first kill that gets slightly bigger with each successive kill. I think the "kill x number" is more a psychological thing...if it doesnt say a number we wouldnt mind.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
I'd rather have zero "kill X" missions. Want to give me a mission like that? "Defeat all x in the (place)". Then I feel like I've actually done something.
I hate it in games where it's like "Oh our village is being attacked by bandits, go kill 10 of them." Then you do and it's like "Huzzah, the village is saved!" But there's no change to the bandits around, they keep spawning, they're there, the village is in constant danger, but I guess I'm supposed to ignore it now.
Just put them in an instance.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
CO did that a lot, hated it. Lazy development on their behave because everything is pretty much kill X number of things.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I don't mind them once in a while. I don't really understand the hate. But if there weren't any I'd be fine too, so, if it keeps the general rage level down... sure, leave 'em out.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
I guess it is like your favorite food. I always wondered how anyone can hate pizza, until I started to eat it nearly every day. Even too much of a good thing can be bad. Feels like every mmo I play is "kill X number of critters" centric.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Not so sure anyone is actually vehemently against them but rather it's a reflexive response since they are so often used badly, as been said here.
Wild Star had something similar to that in the rank of a mob determined how much the kill-quest progressed for a kill, unfortunately they butchered it by treating team members as not being teamed in terms of progression. As for only getting progression for a specific one rather anyone from that faction, well as long as there is a story reason behind it I wouldn't mind it.
Combine this with Redlynne's idea of having an increasing percentage chance with each kill after a specific minimum amount and I think it would make it really dynamic.
The fixed numbers were balance related. It was to make sure that everyone had the chance to earn the same amount for the same mission. Your final XP was (average enemy defeat XP) * (Number of defeated enemies) + (Mission Completion Bonus). In fact this was the formula for ALL missions. And generally it's the formula for any game that uses XP advancement and missions. The problem with the "Defeat X enemy of type Y" missions is it's pretty grindy feeling and seems pointless. The reason is that the person planning the missions is not thinking of the story arc as well as they should. They are trying to make sure the player is of sufficient level to advance to the next point in the story arc. The better way to do this isn't to give any number at all and just advance them when they have earned the XP goal. "Combat Clockwork Oscillators until you have recovered an intact control unit" or something similar. Then the game just monitors the XP earned after every target enemy is defeated. When the XP goal is either met or exceeded then the mission bonus is rewarded and the player is notified. Then it's just a matter of enemy placement on the map. This makes it a "search" mission for the player rather than just a "defeat X" mission. There is still a place for those for beginners though: "Let the Shadow Gang know you are in town. Defeat 10 of them in the Upper Libertyville district and show them who's boss." That's a street mission. At least this isn't as annoying as having you go to X police call boxes or similar. Those were real time wasters and I never saw the point.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
It's kill 10 in an area and yay you saved the day, because there's multiple players.
If they didn't have multiple of the enemy there, so people could feel like they cleared the whole area, then they'd just be whining about not enough enemies or kill stealing.
Sometimes you just have to use your imagination in the role playing game.
Instances or phasing solves the problem.
If I wanted to use my imagination I'd play a TTRPG.
CoT is already going to incentivise street sweeping with their investigation missions.
Another good way to do a kill x would be that after killing a certain number (likely hidden to the player, but not random chance) a Named NPC shows up and you have to beat them for the quest item. "Lure out [NPC] by defeating [Group] in [Place]"
Don't even need to have to fight him, could be an informant, an enemy of whoever you're fighting, there's a few possibilities with it.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Now that's a good method.
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[color=#FF0000]Senior Developer/Project Manager/Co-Founder... and then some.[/color]
Remember the ambushes in CoH? I remember some Tsoo dudes hunting me all across independence port in broad daylight :p
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[color=red]PR, Forum Moderator[/color]
[url=http://cityoftitans.com/forum/desvipers-creative-impulsivity]My Non-Canon Backstories[/url]
Avatar by MikeNovember
Kill x family bosses type missions are quick, easy missions that the devs can put in there to bulk out missions in an area. Every mission in the game cant be a symphony, sometimes you just have to have a tiny jingle. The main problem I see in these are when you need 10 of this target and there are only 4 that exist, there are 6 people trying for them and they have a 20 min recharge. This builds frustration and bad behavior, both of which hurt the feeling of community. And player retention. I dont really want to see a metric asston of these, but Some in each arc arent a problem. Some people love these mission, different mission types make different people happy.
Some thing else that annoys people, gimping stealth by having regular mobs that see right through stealth as ambushes. Have them go to the target area and attack what they can see, not have them use godlike detection to already know exactly where you are. If you have to defeat them to get the drop, you will have to come out of stealth, just let you do it intelligently and not as a copout.
While the Kill X type quests / missions seem like tedious work, going back to the root of their design, you can understand more of why they were created.
They were simple in scope.
They usually were used to point players in a direction to where combat content was providing in their starting area and new areas.
They were used to show the later the types of enemies and even factions of enemies in starting / new areas.
Sometimes they were used as a starting point of content to teach players the basics of combat, the loot system, what earning xp was. Early MMOs didn’t give you a tutuorial thst walked you through these basics, but dropped you right from making your character into the game. You had to learn all the systems as you played. These simple tasks helped guide players through all of this.
Back in the day, like in EQ, it could take killing 40-60 basic critters to game an early level. There was a crap-ton of grinding. These kill X quests helped break up the grind to get the player out of combat, earn xp for completion, which was actually keeping them on pace for staying and killing.
It won’t wrong in a great number of ways. You had content designers who were in overlapping areas making similar content. Over time new devs who relied on this type of content for filler, no longer understanding the original intent behind their design.
And as the time investment to level increases and the content becomes more varied, coming across these simpler kill x types of content automatically is viewed as tedious by comparison.
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I remember those being dangerous because they could spawn outside the nominal level range of the zone. There were a few times a call went out on globals asking for a higher level player to clear up an ambush that was killing lowbies.
Those were the moments I lived for. I actually felt heroic.
So, let's get dangerous.
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I remember, quite a while back, discussing the idea that a Vendor (or other NPC) could say, "I heard the Y hijacked a shipment of X. I've completely run out of X and part of that shipment was for me. I need you to go beat up the Y and take their X. I'll give you a pocketful of shiny Nemmie Buttons for a bunch of X."
Sounds like a fun caper to me!
Be Well!
Fireheart
The ambush issue was because the original code set the ambush on the player character. Stalkers and players using stealth powers were auto-magically located as well.
Eventually the problem was resolved by hooking the ambush to a location.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I don't mind the "Kill X of Y" missions, so long as they're used sparingly, the numbers are relatively low, and there are plenty of targets available. Those missions really only bug me when:
1. that's all I seem to be able to get from a contact, or
2. if players end up camping spawns or kill stealing because they can't find enough targets.
If either of those things is happening, that's bad mojo all around.
I think kill counts are better as a secondary goal in a mission, or at least if integrated into the story, such as "Go get the glowie, and while you're at it make sure you take down at least 10 of the goons guarding it." or "Take down the boss, and if you take out at least 10 of his minions I'll throw in a little bonus."
As for killing one specific variety of mob (such as Clockwork Oscillators), I remember cases where players would just snipe the Oscillator out of the spawns, and leave the other two, meaning that someone else would have to clean up the remaining clockwork, in order to eventually get any Oscillators to spawn again. That was a bad situation for the game and the community (See #s 1 & 2 above).
I'm with the folks who say they don't mind Kill-X missions if used sparingly and made interesting by the story. In general, I much prefer instanced content (for the reasons listed above as well as others), but an open-world Kill-X every now and then to change things up wouldn't bother me.
Agreed. When I first did one of these, I kept expecting something interesting to happen when I clicked one of the police boxes. Just having a spawn or an NPC appear -- or maybe a radio message come in -- would have made these missions more worthwhile.
Yeah, there was a mission on redside that sent you back to Mercy Island when your character was near 50. I was stealthed and teleporting across the neighbourhood above the buildings when I suddenly heard panicked cries for help on the zone channel. Apparently a previous mission I had done spawned an ambush, so several top-tier Malta were trying to follow me on the streets of a zone designed for levels 1-8 until I popped down and took care of them.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Oh I remember that one! They tended to show up at the clock tower where the contact was and hang around there. Reasonably often I would be in Mercy recruiting for an SG or speed boosting the zone on my Fire/Kin when that happened and I would go deal with it as a Fire/Kin Corrupter does. Pop some defense inspirations so you can survive, get in the middle of the spawn, cast Fulcrum Shift to max your damage output, cast Rain of Fire to SCOURGE any survivors and use the tier 9 nuke. And if anything survived, pop an endurance inspiration and cast Transference to refill the endurance bar after the nuke crashed it.
Oh and then tell the zone the area was safe again.
I recall sprinting for the Train Station in Kings Row, with a pack of L35 Council on my tail. Exciting for Everyone! Police-bots took care of them, though.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I like this idea!
Counting kills passively. Don't make a mission to kill x number of y types just keep track of those kills passively and as the character reach whatever balance goals they need to get particular missions make them available. Several ways to do so just like PH said.
I did plenty of street sweeping in COH but it wasn't always for a particular mission. Sometimes there just isn't enough time to finish a mission proper, so some street sweeping to get my fix would do it. Sometimes I was just that close to leveling that a few kills would get it. It would be nice if those general purpose street sweeps could count to more than experience points, like some not so obvious story arcs.
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Yeah, beating up mooks from a certain group isn't a bad quest in and of itself as long as it gets progress regardless of where you do it and it isn't the sole focus of the player.
I think the main concern here is simply that quests that are only "go to a room and beat up 10 guys" are really lazy and boring, and that is largely what CoH had at launch. This sort of thing isn't going to engage players anymore, they want more interesting encounters.
You can still have those goals, but they have to be incorporated into other gameplay as people have said. As long as you are going on a mission with an interesting story and interesting events and puzzles and challenges then players can complete those side "beat up x mooks" objectives and it doesn't feel like a grind. I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread, having progression tied not to only number of mooks beat up but include quality of enemies defeated would open additional opportunities for players looking to fight bosses instead of stomp minions.
Division 2 is a great example right now of having a good variety of events and challenges of many types for players to interact with. Boss fights, street sweeping, dungeons, puzzles, scavenger hunts, base defense, you name it. At the end of the day they all give exp and loot and cosmetic options in various ways, and you can make them as challenging or easy as you want, and they all scale with the level and number of players in the group. It takes many of the concepts CoH pioneered and refines them.
The important thing is that players can play the way they want with anyone they want, they always feel they are being rewarded, and the content always feels engaging and interesting. "Stay in the forest killing boars" a la the famous south park episode is the quintessential lame grindy MMO experience that isn't going to fly well these days.
We always called the "phone box circuit" missions Pizza Delivery Runs ... because that's basically all they were, a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem]Traveling Salesman[/url] problem to be solved.
They were simple ... but Way Too Stupid™.
What I always wanted to see as the mission design in City of Heroes for these things was a situation where your PC would be given a Defeat X of Y Mission in the open world, but then your PC would go to a nearby phonebox to report in to the Contact, and THAT would then mark the Mission Complete for the mission, and allow chaining towards the next mission in line. The basic setup would be Someone In Neighborhood Y Knows Something ... go find that someone and report back to the Contact (without needing to travel back to the Contact) ... and the Contact will piece together the Clue that you've found with their knowledge of the area to give you a Door Mission ... or a wash/rinse/repeat of another Defeat X of Y Mission in another part of town. Note that such a "chaining" of missions can make them feel more like there's a connection between what your character is doing and where they need to go.
I always thought that using this formulation for Street Sweeping would have been a superior option, before the inevitable Cell Phone reputation level was reached and you didn't need to visit the Contact to call them.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Actually, any time I got a 'Kill X' mission, I would look for an instanced mission with X-mobs in it. One thing that CoH did well, was getting the 'phone-number' of the NPC. You could get the next 'Kill More X' mission with a few clicks, instead of running all the way back to the contact each time.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I felt like the method Archeage had for these kind of missions felt more fresh, where you could overachieve by killing x amount, then optionally killing the rest for more of a reward. It gives you the chance to either complete it fully for all the goodies, or just rush through the quest. It definitely felt to me like the "Kill x amount of y" quests were at least slightly less boring because of that. And if you make sure to make it more interesting like some of the suggestions in this thread give, then I imagine it could allow room for the kill quota missions without them being the boring small grind quests they are prone to being.
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Alternative possibility.
[b]Defeat X of Y, particularly Z of Y.[/b]
This formulation would allow the defeat of any (X) members of Y faction, but the Z (named) members of Y faction are worth "more" towards this goal than just generic "any" members of the Y faction.
So instead of Defeat 20 Tsoo Sorcerers ... you have something like ... Defeat 100 Tsoo, particularly Tsoo Sorcerers.
The idea here is that any member of the Tsoo is worth "1 point" towards this objective, but Tsoo Sorcerers are worth "5 points" towards the mission objective instead.
So you can defeat either 100 generic Tsoo ... or 20 Tsoo Sorcerers ... or any fungible combination of the two that basically adds up to 100+ "points" of Tsoo defeated.
After that it's simply a matter of deciding what the "bonus value" of defeating the "particularly Y of Z" is for completing the defeat total faster.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Yeah this "points value" concept was the idea I was trying to explain/suggest way back [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/169630#comment-169630]at the beginning of this thread[/url] as an alternative to the generic "kill X" mission.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Random idea about this. I like how DDO handles this (sort of) with their monster compendium/manual. It's like an ongoing "kill x number of y's". You get experience at different thresholds like 10, 50, 100, 250, etc. Now, DDO doesnt have 'street sweeping' for the most part so these are done almost completely in instances.
So my idea would be something similar. Tiered rewards for killing x thing. So you create a new character, hop in the game, and go grab your first "kill 10 of y" mission. Awesome, you go kill the 10 and come back. The mission giver tells you "good job, now if you keep killing x you'll get more rewards. You're next goal is 25, so 15 more, and you'll get z reward."
Or it could be implemented where everyone just has those "missions" from the get-go and the first time you kill 10 of x thing you get a message with bonus x or something and then you can track that until the next tier. Doing it this way you dont ever have to accept a mission it just happens. I personally really like this method because you know that you're always working towards something no matter what you are fighting.
Doing it this way could also remove the need to ever put a "kill x of y" kind of mission in the game...perhaps with the exception of tutorials.
Compulsively clicking the refresh button until the next update.
+1 (and honorable mention to Lothic for having the same idea too)
If there is the possibility of street sweeping mobs that spawn in the outdoor public areas of the game for XP and loot, I would like there to be reasons to do that which encourage people like me (i.e. loot-driven consumers of content) to do that, at least to some extent. I think it would be nice to have some sort of weekly or daily (or both) loot-awarding task or goal that your toon can get from a contact and then do for added rewards while street sweeping. Maybe the area you need to clean up (or "hit" if you're a villain) changes form week to week, maybe the rewards are somewhat random, I don't know.
I just know that some of us are going to do the content that gives us the most bang for the buck, and I would ike for street sweeping to be that, at least sometimes. Heck, I was reading an article online recently about a guy who got his account banned from Anthem because he was acquiring loot faster than the devs wanted to allow. All he was doing, apparently, was running around the map in a circuit hitting open-world treasure chests for loot. That has to be the dullest, most boring, and grindiest way to play a game, but this guy was doing it because those chests had the best loot in them, apparently. Anyway, the point is, if you make any kind of content, whether it's missions in private instanced "door mission" maps, or street sweeping mobs that spawn in the outdoors, or TFs or anything else, you make it because you want people to do it. And I think incentivizing the loot-driven people like me to go do different stuff with some kind of periodic added loot rewards on some kind of weekly or daily basis is a good idea. I'm not against the idea of certain specific things only dropping from themed content (if CoT's analog of HamiOs only drop from their version of the Hamidon, that won't bother me), but I like the idea of spreading the loot-reward wealth around to different types of content periodically.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Why does Lothic get the honourable mention when they posted the idea first? Shouldn't Red be the honorable mention?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Or you can be fair, give neither of them a +1 and just give it to someone random outside of the forum :P
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+1 to my Dog, for being cute?
Be Well!
Fireheart
Is your dog as cute as Dr. Tyche's dog?
Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
[url=https://cityoftitans.com/forum/foradains-character-conclave]Foradain's Character Conclave[/url]
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Avatar courtesy of [s]Satellite9[/s] [url=https://www.instagram.com/irezoomie/]Irezoomie[/url]
my black lab will take on all comers in the cuteness wars,,,,,
One thing that annoyed me, rewards that never came. During the release that gave us wings recipies, I got zero drops. I leveled at least 4 characters and played 6+ hours a night during that period. no drops. Swtor is even worse with its love of rng. Do the ossis grind the 1 time a week you can do it and the random reward is the same relic every week that you couldnt use even 1 of..... really frustrating
All silliness aside ... I'm going to plant my flag on the notion that there is ONE AND ONLY ONE way to resolve a [b]Defeat X of Y[/b] mission is both lazy and foolish from a game design standpoint. When you know EXACTLY WHEN the "quota" for the mission is going to be filled, that takes a lot of the sense of accomplishment out of the completion of that mission.
Defeats 1-9 were "meaningless" ... but Defeat 10 caused the Mission Complete ... and you know that in advance, and there is no uncertainty involved, takes a lot of the accomplishment out of what you're doing as a Player.
Instead of a mountain to climb, instead you've got treadmill (or worse, a hamster wheel) to spin that won't get you anywhere.
I also disapprove of having [b]Defeat X of Y[/b] missions that reward Cherry Picking™ exclusively (Clockwork Oscillators only, Tsoo Sorcerers only, etc.) to the point where it becomes advantageous to the individual to take out the mission type NPC exclusively while leaving everything else behind (as a waste of effort) that then prevents respawns of groups until someone else comes along to clean up. Any mission that yields a Path of Least Resistance that results in a Somebody Else's Problem on the path to getting the mission reward is something poorly designed for the game overall.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
IIRC the CoH Devs apparently caught a lot of flak for those "wing recipes" being far too rare when they first released them. At some point in the future (I forgot how long it took) the Devs changed the drop frequency but they overcompensated. From that point on it seemed like those recipes were "a dime a dozen" and became virtually worthless from an auction house value point of view.
I suppose this would be a quick "lesson learned" example for Devs to make sure the drop rarity of a type of item is set correctly from the very beginning.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
But making something non-rare makes it available to Everyone who wants it. I remember wanting 'Butterfly Wings' for the longest time and then they were available for cheap, so I was able to get them. They never did drop for me, but other people got them and put them on the Market. So this 'mistake' worked for me.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'm just pointing out those recipes started off "way too rare" then were eventually switched to "drops every five seconds" without apparent consideration that pegging them to drop somewhere [b]in-between[/b] those two extremes would've probably been better over all for everyone.
Ironically I don't actually mind when some things are always super rare in games or when other things are always super common. It was just when those wing recipes went from being one type (super rare) to the other (super common) is when I thought it was handled in a semi-silly fashion and seemed to lack any foresight on the Devs' part.
The whole affair ended up being a text-book case of "overcorrection" on CoH's part.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
All I have to say to this is "oh no, but then everyone can have the thing they want!"
Especially when it comes to cosmetics I could not care less if anyone who wants the cosmetic can get it.
Honestly I'd rather have content 100% give you a thing rather than having to run the same content hundreds if times to get that thing you want.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Yeah I don't mind having to rely on "random rare drops" in games for things like rare weapons, armor, enhancements, etc. but the idea of having to rely on random rare drops for "purely cosmetic" items seems a bit harsh (especially if that's the only way to get those particular items).
Again I doubt the average CoH Dev would consider initially making the wing recipes super-rare one of their "finer moments" and I think the fact that they eventually made them super-common was kind of the "proof" that they had messed that up.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I think the devs have stated that they dislike random drops of costume pieces in general. I can't find where. Anyway, they have talked about having specific missions to get specific costume pieces as Badge-related unlocks, and then also the ability to buy that stuff (just the costumes, not the badges) with real money.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
That is thenormairy methodnwe have discussed. It doesn’t rule out earning something by crafting. Though the crafting piece may also unlock a badge. Not saying “this is a thing”, but it is a “possible thing”.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I think the key is that there should be nothing "random" about getting a specific cosmetic item. You either get it by default in the costume creator, earn it by doing specific things in the game (via missions, crafting, etc.) or you buy it directly from the game store. In all these cases the player knows exactly what needs to be done - there's nothing "random" about it.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
part of the problem was that some people were getting 3 or 4 wing drops a week, while others got zero. The lucky ones made a bundle and the unlucky got nada. Yet people repeat the bs about rng being perfect.
I think once you know more about how our crafting system is set up, you’ll understand my suggestion of what may be possible a bit more. Of course, not knowing this info can cause concern and I’m not saying your statements are unwarranted holdingbwhat you don’t know against you.
Just that it will make more sense and why I posted it (because it makes sense to me).
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Again I'm sure that kind of thing happened to some people when the wing recipes were first released. RNG is always a bitch like that as far as some people getting lucky and other people not so much. That's the way MMOs work, period.
All I'm saying is that the CoH Devs' "solution" to that was that they eventually switched the drop rate on those recipes from being super-rare to stupid-common. The auction house prices for those recipes dropped overnight from like 100,000 INF down to like 10 INF because the CoH Devs compounded their original mistake by hugely over-compensating for their original rarity.
You might be able to make the case that the original drop rate for those recipes was far too low. But the "correction" to that was equally ham-fisted by making them so annoyingly common that people routinely threw them away instead of even bothering to sell them. They went from diamond-rare to coal-worthless in one step.
Basically I'm saying that both of those "extremes" were bad for different reasons.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
My general statement about making sure a player's ability to obtain a given cosmetic item is not based on "randomized" game mechanics doesn't really require any insider/Redname knowledge. That's a desire I think most players have regardless of the game being discussed.
To be clear I don't care if a costume item is "hard" to earn in-game as long as I know if I deterministically do X, Y and Z I'll eventually get it. It's the doing the same activity a thousand times and still only having a "random chance" to get the exact cosmetic item drop you want is what I think annoys people in these situations.
Like you say I know nothing about how crafting for cosmetic items is really going to work in CoT. All I'm saying is if you can eliminate any elements of "random chance" associated with cosmetic items that would likely be greatly appreciated.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Just as a basis for comparison, as we all know, a lot of games do use random drops for gear. This is annoying when you just want to look a certain way, but that gear is very sub-optimal. Guild Wars 2 has a way to take an item and change it's appearance to make it look like a different item of the same type, which is at least something. You still can't change the colors. In Destiny 2, the gear is not only gotten by random drops, but it also is the mechanism by which your effective combat level is calculated, and you cannot change the appearance beyond maybe using a different color palette "shader". Even then , you don't have any real control over which bits are which colors, the shader decides that for you. So like, if your arm armor consists of sleeves, gloves, and shoulder plates, the "black/green/gold/red" shader shader might make the sleeves black, the gloves green, the shoulder plates gold, and the armpit areas red, for example, and you don't get nay say in which color goes where. There are also parts of some armors that are just always a certain color, and no shader will ever change that.
Edit: ...and the shaders are gotten randomly and consumed upon use too. That said, once you've goteen one shader of a given type to drop, you can remake more of them by spending IGC.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
We already know there will be an absolutely clear 100% distinction between "cosmetic drops" and "non-cosmetic drops" in CoT. Costume items in CoT will have [b]zero effect[/b] on in-game combat performance so trying to relate this situation to just about any other game that has "gear" (which mixes the concepts of cosmetics and game mechanics together) doesn't really help us too much here. In a nutshell cosmetics in CoT is not going to work the same way a game like Guild Wars 2, Destiny 2 or virtually any other game does.
I will have no problem dealing with "random drops" for [b]non-cosmetic[/b] items in CoT. But the idea of having to be at the mercy of the RNG for [b]cosmetic[/b] drops is something I'd rather not have to deal with.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I agree with Lothic 100%. But I think the devs do too, so problem solved?
Yeah I don't think there was ever actually a "problem" with this - I think the CoT Devs have always more or less been on the "same page" about cosmetics in CoT.
Since the thread was already wandering off into the weeds anyway I guess I just wanted to double-down on stressing that "[url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/169779#comment-169779]farming for butterfly wings[/url]" sucked in CoH and I don't want to see that happen in CoT.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I wonder if, instead of monkeying with the RNG, it wouldn't be better to release a calculated number of such items into the Market?
I do agree that there ought to be a known and predictable method of acquiring any cosmetic item.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Well I'm not actually "anti-RNG" and I never suggested that the RNG mechanics should be "monkeyed" with. I simply suggested that when it comes to purely cosmetic items that "randomness" should not be involved. The RNG should be left to drops that involve non-cosmetic items.
So for instance I would have nothing against a simple repeatable mission that took most people on average say 20-30 minutes to complete that would have a guaranteed reward of a specific style of cape. That "reward" could even be in the form of a recipe that could be sold at the auction house if you wanted. Since in that case it would be a sellable commodity with a stable, reliable source the price for such a recipe would likely never become radically over or under inflated.
So with something like that there'd be no need to "monkey" with RNGs or artificially inject those recipes into the market.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]