If a version of this was mentioned already, apologies.
Was there ever any thought to a mission for the Heroes that included competing Villain Players (and visa-versa) where the outcome was not decided by who got beat up?
[b]For instance[/b], Player Villains are running through a rioting area trying to rob targets (people or places).
They gain rewards for each successful one. The heroes try to rescue/secure the targets and get rewards for saves. Beating up each other works, sure, but it's not the guaranteed path to success.
[b]Two better examples[/b]: Villain players could choose a mission types that could risk Player Hero intervention;
[b][i]Area Destruction[/i][/b]: The job is paying to damage someone's property (a building, city block, etc), or scare NPC owners enough to leave/sell out. The more damage/fear before its over, the more the Player Villain rewards. Player Heroes could learn of the attacks and have ways to mitigate damage and protect people. Maybe Detective-type heroes learn of these events and their targets faster than non-detective types.
[b][i]Heist[/i][/b]: Villain Players have access to city maps to plan a heist from a menu of options;
[i]1st[/i] -Options start the break-in; A place to get codes, keys, the loved-one of a security guard for a hostage, etc.
[i]2nd[/i] -Options to take down defenses; blow-up/turn off a power generator, or a computer server room that runs security, or straight up attacking guards from the inside.
[i]3rd[/i] Get in and secure the "loot".
[i]4th[/i], -Options to arrange a way to get the loot out; Carry it, sure. But even better; give it to a waiting truck, team in the sewer, inside man in the mail-room, etc. Even if the hero catches the Villain player, there is still the chance to complete the mission.
While heroes traditionally tend to react, not plan/execute, this formula works perfectly well for Hero Player missions as well. Offensives against organized crime and such could be run with Villain Players getting paid opportunities to protect or extract criminals and stolen goods.
[b]For flexibility[/b];
This doesn't require PvP. NPC Heroes/Villains with police/henchmen could be stand-ins for each stage of a mission.
Without success depending on who wins a fight, I think low-level characters could prevail against high-level ones because of how they use their power-set and map opportunities.
Higher level players can have larger mission areas with more options, and more tasks (thus more rewards).
[b]One last thought[/b]:
Roles and power-sets pretty much define the class of a hero. Having missions styled like this adds another element to a class. I mentioned above the idea of a "Detective-type". A class could be further defined by;
-[i]The Hero skill[/i] developed to get information; Patrolling, Network of spies/contacts, Hackers, Magical Diviners, and of course, Detecting from a Scene of a Crime. The better the skill, the quicker you discover the next stage of the opponent's mission.
-[i]The Villain skill[/i] developed to escape; get-away vehicle/device, disguises, inside men, safe-houses. The better the skill, the more reliable the escape.
I like the idea of having non-PvP versions, with stand-in NPC heroes/villains. I recommend getting input on preprogrammed NPC tactics from the folks who playtest the PvP version, to make it more challenging for us PvE players. ^_^
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Some of this sounds a lot like the PvEvP stuff I was talking about [i]years ago[/i] now, where the basic idea is that rather than attacking each other directly (PvP) the PCs have competing goals to accomplish within the Environment (so, technically PvE) but the two opposing factions have the PCs attacking the NPCs supporting the other faction's goals ... resulting in a PvEvP competition.
Kind of like how in Tug-o-War, the two sides never touch each other directly, but instead "compete" with each other through the medium of a rope that each side holds. First side to "drag the rope" far enough over to their side wins. You never "defeat the opposing team" by touching them in any way, but rather you "pull on your end" more strongly than they do on "their end" of the medium between the two competing teams.
PvEvP.
Now imagine a situation like a "shootout" happening along a street between a Lawful faction (TCPD?) and an Unlawful faction (pick your street gang of choice).
The PCs could aid either side by picking which faction of NPCs to support ... by attacking the opposing faction of NPCs.
Whichever faction gets mopped up first "loses" the confrontation.
In excessively simple terms, a Hero on the scene might start delivering a beatdown to all the street gang NPCs ... while a Villain might start delivering a beatdown to all the TCPD ... although the reverse is [i]also perfectly possible[/i].
Essentially, the PCs "pick sides" by, in effect, picking who they want to WIN and who they want to LOSE in the confrontation between the two NPC factions.
Basically, the PC becomes the "spoiler factor" between two equally balanced NPC factions, tipping the scales against one faction (and therefore in favor of the other).
In the example I'm giving here, the Hero and the Villain would be "competing" to determine who can mop up their NPC "enemies" first, ending the event (and thereby "winning" it) ... rather than having the Hero and the Villain engage in direct PvP against each other.
Result ... PvEvP ... using the Tug-o-War model for determining victory conditions as a result of enforcing a "loser" between the two NPC factions.
From that very simple premise of PC+NPCs vs NPCs+PC you can immediately make things more dynamic and complex simply by adding a third NPC faction into the mix, such that you're dealing with a three way free for all, rather than just an US vs THEM framing, which then adds complication and challenge to the 1v1 Tug-o-War framing, since now you're dealing with potential alliances, rivalries and betrayals of convenience situations, making the situations more dynamic and difficult for the PC(s) participating.
PvEvP is something that can potentially be quite enjoyable ... even with a Capture The Flag kind of victory condition when allowing the PCs to [i]align their interests[/i] with NPC factions BY CHOICE for the duration of a competitive event.
And that's before you get into the whole "winning the hearts and minds" of the populations within the various districts inside the bounds of the City of Titans ...
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PvEvP also adds a buffer layer for balancing. Since balancing PvP is notoriously difficult.
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Avatar by MikeNovember
This thread has me wondering how non-pvp will even work. Like, if I, as a hero, see a bad guy beating up TCPD can I, on a non-pvp shard (or what have you), even do anything about it? Or will I just have to ignore it?
With everyone mixed up together it makes non-pvp very strange.
Anyway on to the subject at hand any kind of competitive indirect pvp seems fine. The more indirect the better, in my opinion. First faction to x mission completions, or the like. Could even have a zone that changes based on what faction holds the most McGuffins or something.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
That is a good question: if i catch a villain beating up on TCPD, suddenly it's PvP and the PvE is pointless. Maybe they could be so hard to kill as to be a waste of time?
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Avatar by MikeNovember
We should dig up those threads. The major themes of what the OP is talking about feels familiar to prior discussions.
There was also a lot of discussion of how these types of competitive goals would function in the PvE phase vs the PvP phase iirc (so the individual players could contribute and also choose to not be in direct conflict with other players).
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[url=https://cityoftitans.com/search/node/PvEvP]https://cityoftitans.com/search/node/PvEvP[/url]
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While the game will be played out on a single server, there are "shards". There are PvE shards and PvP shards. If you are hero playing on a PvP shard, then you can stop a villian from attacking someone else. If you are on a PvE shard, I don't know what the rules are.
Close, but not quite accurate.
There is a PvE phase and PvP phase. If you are playing in a PvP phase, then you can stop anyone who is not in your League (or Super Team or group) from attacking someone else. Reference >> [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/125600#comment-125600]How should the PvP phase play? Give your visions here[/url]
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Even on a PvE shard, one might frustrate the villain by buffing the NPC.
Didn't DCUO have some missions where there was a riot and heroes and villains had opposing goals in the scenario? I definitely remember trying to save a civilian, only to have some guy dressed in red come along and poison the poor victim.
Be Well!
Fireheart
That would be a massive flaw in the system if that's allowed.
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You sure about that?
Villain is doing damage to a bunch of TCPD who are hostile to the Villain.
Hero is healing the same bunch of TCPD who are allied to the Hero.
The Villain and the Hero aren't attacking each other directly ... but they are "competing" with each other through the medium of the NPCs (and their survival).
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If you're doing a mission where the task is to compete with each other, it's fine- although non healing heroes won't be able to do that mission. But out in the world, if I can run up and heal a mob so that the player in combat with it can't kill it, and there's no way for the other player to come at me and stop me? That's griefing, hands down.
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The basic premise was two factions fighting each other and that PC's can bolster the overall "combat strength" of one side. You can do that by both taking out the enemy and by keeping allies alive so that every build can do something.
As for doing it to any random NPC you have a good point, not sure I completely agree with you though.
I don't think that NPCs will be targetable. They weren't in CoX and I believe Tannim and others have said the same wes true here.
So we can neither attack them nor buff them. Harass them maybe, by blocking their pathing, but that would about it.
Fixed that for you.
Although, a more accurate description would be that Civilians couldn't be attacked/damaged/buffed/debuffed/mezzed, since it was perfectly possible to target Civilians. In fact there was an entire "hidden" system built into the Civilians of City of Heroes such that the first letter of their name would control what information those Civilians could provide you from an interaction.
[url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Civilian]https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Civilian[/url]
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Which made GTA/Skyrim style rampages not an option
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Avatar by MikeNovember
I'd like this better if this was an alternative PvP match. Both characters are effectively the generals of these armies, and have infinite respawns but one loses when their army is defeated, therefore it's not just about defeating the opponent, it's about who you want to protect in your army and deciding on whether you want to stay with them to protect them or risk it and go behind enemy lines to destroy your opponents healers and heavy hitters
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
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Finally ... someone gets it ...
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As far as how any of these scenarios work, I would think the player starting the event-mission could decide if it were open to player opponents when it initiates. Those that want Player Villains/Heroes to find and oppose them could open it up as an option while NPC Villain/Heroes would stand in till any showed up.
Or reverse it with a straight-up queue: The mission starts when all participants appear, and replace any leavers with NPCs.