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Yeah that's why I used to try to guessimate what I spent on CoH back in the day "per hour". Even after buying practically everything possible in the cash store and otherwise spending as much as a person could on a single account as often as I could I usually still averaged something like 8-10 cents an hour. That's really just about as close to "playing for free" as you can effectively get.
People just need to try to keep these kinds of things in perspective and stop being "upset" about the things that aren't worth being upset about.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Did anyone mention maybe making some costumes like 3 % or around there chance to get from like world bosses and rare elites or something of that manner
I used to buy a Carmel Machiatto every day. Plus gave a $1 tip everytime. Even with buy 10 get one free, so going 3 free a month to be generous. I was spending over 150 a month on coffee. It never took me an hour to drink the coffee, but I thought I'd give a bit of leeway on how long it takes people to drink their coffee.
Those people, who do the same thing I do, some how thought, 15/month, was just insane for what they figured was only a couple of hours a week.
Never mind there's also the idea that people go to the movies and pay so much for 2 hours of enjoyment there as well.
That said, I also feel big companies want bigger profit margins than they really need to be considered successful. :p "We made enough money to pay everyone's salaries and company expenses and still have money left over! But its not enough, so we're letting people go!"
That just might be me hating to see people let go, when I don't feel they really need to be let go though :p
All comes down to greed. No, customers, you cannot get things for free. No, corporations, you cannot have all the money, and not pay your workers. Of course, things are more complicated than that, but if people could internalize those two concepts, there might be a lot less problems. MWM seems to have their side down, at least for now. Of course, prosperity seems to increase the greed of some (Wal-Mart as an easy target example), so we'll have to see, I guess.
Shocking Blu
Eh even if you made some item X be either A) buyable in the store or B) a 3% drop from a boss then people would likely claim that's "unfair" because there's always the chance you'll be unlucky enough to never hit that 3% chance.
I don't think you could make costume items be a random rare drop unless you ALSO made them earnable by some kind of non-random effort. So again with that item X you might be able to get away with offering it as a 3% chance rare drop if you ALSO designed it so that you could get it with absolute certainty whenever you killed 100 X related dudes. This way there's always a completely [i]non-random[/i] way to get that item for free just by playing.
Now I suppose you might push the edge of this by making something be A) a 3% rare drop or B) you have to kill a semi-stupid number of dudes (10,000?) to get it. With this you've still guaranteed there's a non-random way to earn the item but in practice you might get the rare random drop long before you finish the non-random requirement. Obviously something like that would be highly debatable.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I am an altaholic. Costumes are my bread and butter. I will not wait to earn a piece I desperately want....
I will purchase at the game store in preference to earning what I want in game...
Bottom line I want what I want now. MWM will always make a mint off of me.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
[img=400x400]https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/241/796/cac.png[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
This is meant half in Jest (because you guys are doing an AMAZING job and you have my full support) and part seriously (Because I missed my first chance to help fund because I hesitated......Never Again......)
But for the Love of CHTHULU PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY!!!!!!!!
On the edge of your Perceptions......
Turn away and feel his hand upon your shoulder.....
Look for him and he shall not exist.....
in the middle of the crowd....lost in the faces....
Stands a Figure....of Gray......
The universe hates me. I would be trying for the rare drop and never get it. So then I’ll grind and be at 9,997 and then get the rare drop. I know how this works.
About the 3% drop idea- please don't. Some mounts in World of Warcraft are like this (Ashes of A'lar for example) and I've pretty much given up on getting it at this point. Each time you do the raid, it's a 1% (or something similarly stupid) to drop, and repeating the content with multiple alts or weekly runs doesn't up those odds any. It's frustrating as hell, and I've basically stopped trying, having gotten discouraged by getting the same old vendor trash each time, never getting what I want.
I remember the option for global cape and aura unlocks appearing in the cash shop- you bet your asphalt I bought both of those. I was sick of waiting till level 30 for my characters to look how I wanted, sick of having to do those missions on each and every alt. The first time, they were fun little lore things. But they got old fast. And when capes and auras from purchased sets were available from level 1, it seemed downright absurd for the others to still be limited by having to do missions at various levels. So yes, I was willing to spend a few Paragon Points for the global unlocks (Not even very expensive IIRC).
Real long story short: I had two characters in CoH that "heal farmed" the 1 billion HP [url=https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Empath_Badge]Empath badge[/url]. This was a group effort that literally required roughly 8-10 months worth of 12 hour per day AFK heal farms. That shows you how completely ridiculously unreasonable the original 1 billion HP requirement was for the badge - it was estimated a player would have to play [b]daily for nearly 20 years[/b] to get that badge "naturally" without farming for it.
Anyway I finished Empath on my main badging character and started in on my secondary. I think I got my secondary roughly 80% done with her Empath (~800m HP healed) when the Devs of CoH finally relented and reduced the badge's requirement down to 100 million. Needless to say the day they reduced the requirement my secondary badger earned it instantly...
How's that for a story about "wasting time" with a badge requirement? ;)
P.S. Turns out they finally reduced that badge down to 10 million HP healed because even 100 million was a bit stupid. ;)
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Thank you guys for answering questions that we're posing. As always, you guys are definitely here for the fans and the fandom.
We do have a Patreon with a _great_ comic - first two issues of Hijinx are complete!
And there's always the Ko-Fi. But we're building the web store to interface with the game back end, so it gets you the account - it's taking a while. The store is easy, the controls are hard.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
interesting new info
Theres still planning to be a second fund raiser correct?
Yes, there is. But we don't want you to give us money based on faith. Things are proceeding, we're building something.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Absolutely. I remember Dr T, I think, saying that it was going to happen near when the Character Generator was up and running. Im excited and Im saving money for whenever the even happens. Thank you all again for your amazing focus on customer response.
I think I understand Lothic’s Logic:
Crown - Obtained Free in game (single char)
same Crown - Obtained via Cash shop (acct wide)
—allows Players and Payers alike to mold the same thematic characters.
GlitterPack Crown - available via cash shop Only. Because i love glitter and am willing to pay the extra dime to sparkle!
And the logic goes in circles here, because Payers which sparkle with their GlitterCrown will show off their fancy wears and Players will wonder where the GlitterQuest is to unlock this fancy hat...and become upset that they cannot form the same flamboyant characters as someone who paid their way to the GlitterThrone.
My expectation as a Player is that i will have a GlitterQuest and/or the customization available for my Crown to recreate your shiny topper. Not a fan of cash shop exclusivity.
Meh. Bah!
Well MWM said that everything they themselves own will have a gameplay unlock option so only licensed pieces may be cash shop only, keyword being may since I sure it will be up to that owner to decide if they want gameplay unlocks, cash shop, or both. Yes I hedging my bets here and wouldn't be adverse to a few items being obtainable only through gameplay.
Thanks all for the responses and understanding. I [i]do[/i] have preconceived ideas about cash shops, for they have been around a long, long time. In my mind, there is no such a thing as a "good cash shop." Why? It is separate from the game. It takes me OUT of the game and asks for money, whether bonus with a sub or on my credit card, it matters not, I am OUT of the game.
I have stopped playing MMOs thanks to this business model where each player plays a different game depending on what they spend in a cash shop. There is no equalization of players happening.
I [i]DID[/i] want to say that I backed this game because I wanted to support these great folks for even trying to do what they're doing. I certainly could not do anything that they do. Missing Worlds Media is doing a great job and I applaud them for their hard work. I just wish they didn't "fall prey" to the money that cash shops certainly accelerate the acquisition of.
I believe (no factual evidence) that an old time MMO[b]RPG[/b] could be supported by a sub only business model. I also know that I don't want to play in a game with multiple millions of players in it. It may be great for business but sucks as a player when 50% or more of the players are looking for a quick game, then moving on. A complete game with a sub keeps most of those players away, which is good for me, bad for the game designers.
It just seems that, thanks to World of Warcraft's insane peak numbers, MMOs now refuse to see a slow and steady return on their work. They want millions now. Each month. It doesn't have to be this way. Ultima Online, EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Meridian59, Asheron's Call, and many more all made [i]good money[/i] before cash shops were ever introduced. Now, we gamers can't get rid of them.
Again, this is just my personal experience and bias. I'm not knocking MWM's efforts or the work they have done and will do. It is my own principles getting in the way. I recall buying complete games way back when. You can't find these anymore and we gamers eat this butchering up.
Heck, the best part about City of Heroes was not any one feature, but the small community that was drawn to it. I'm worried that this community will suffer because of the cash shop inviting players who don't care into the game.
So... "wait and see", right? Back to hiding for me now :)
- Al
Marvel Heroes could not offer much in their cosmetic shop because they forgot to include a character creator. To this day I hold on to the belief that ultimately led to its' demise. With their company troubles, it was easy to drop the game. If it were doing Fortnite numbers I doubt Gaz would have crumbled.
In the shop there could have been symbiotes skin, Thing skin, Wolverine claws, the possibilities where endless with that game. The infinity gauntlet could have been a rare endgame piece drop. Boy did Disney & Marvel drop the ball on that game, so much potential.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
You pegged it. [u]Players want to make their own characters,[/u] and COH spoiled me forever. Marvel never did figure that out.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Yeah especially for specialized effects, since this game is NOT monthly based, I have no problem having some exclusive cash shop only items.
They also mentioned a monthly option that would have give the best return on store money, and I definitely plan to do that, if nothing just to support MWM.
Agreed. How much more fun could a Marvel fan have than to create their own character, and have them go out and fight evil alongside Spider-Man, captain America, or the Fantastic Four or X-Men. Although it could have been bad, too. I'm reminded of an experience someone told me of playing the DC game, where he was a Level 1 villain in Metropolis, standing on a building top, looking around. Suddenly SUPERMAN comes swooping down out of the sky, punches him off the building, and flies away, instant-killing him. I found it kind of amusing, my friend much less so. :)
Shocking Blu
Marvel Heroes was okay because it was a Diablo clone. You don’t make a character in the Diablo games either; you pick a pre-made character and then you customize by picking abilities as you level up and equipping new gear.
I’d love to see a real Marvel MMORPG someday. But honestly I’m not really sure how much better it would be than a game like CoT with original characters and stories. DCUO wasn’t that much better because Batman sent me on a mission or because I beat up Solomon Grundy in a fight. What makes a superhero game better is making my own hero and the exploits he has, not the NPCs around me.
It is really difficult to argue your point because of DCUO haha. DCUO is a severely flawed game, but it is the only superhero mmo with an IP. I can point to its' flaws and say if they did this or that, but the fact is, they didn't.
Maybe games with a popular IP are too concerned with their IP characters that game-play comes secondary. Compared to BDO, Vindictus, PSO2, Lost Ark or any other action mmo, DCUO looks like a retro title. I wonder how many mmo with super popular IP have been good, although good is subjective.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Marvel should be able to do an awesome MMO and able to learn from all previous Superhero MMOS and MMOs in general, to get a good Marvel MMO going.
Able to fight with Marvel heroes, while also going on your own missions with a character you created yourself? Yes please!
Marvel could even do it like...
X-Men
Teen X-Men
Avengers
Teen Avengers
Spider-Verse
SHIELD
So, an idea of working as a young hero, a new older hero, that an adult wouldn't join the young marvel heroes and a basic idea of different starting points, that can easily overlap at some point.
I've highlighted mehebah's basic assumption here. He/she is "assuming" that [b]ALL[/b] players would become "upset" if there are some "fancy versions of items" that are cash-shop only. I actually suspect there would only be a relative few who would be legitimately upset by that, especially as long as there is ALWAYS at least some kind of plain/normal equivalent for FREE in the CharGen.
Again I don't think the Devs should go overboard with special "cash shop only" items like these. Perhaps they would limit them to a very small percentage (1%) of the overall costume item types available in the game. In practice it would likely be more like the following example: Let's assume there are a full dozen wing types in the game. As long as 10 or 11 of those are either [b]A)[/b] free in the CharGen or [b]B)[/b] earnable by playing the game (which means those options would ALSO be in the cash shop) it wouldn't bother me at all to [b]C)[/b] have 1 or 2 of those be "super-special cash shop only" versions.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
It would be a pretty cool dynamic to join or be affiliated with a specific guild, or faction.
I will say X-men all day, with the real Wolverine, whom was a short buff lumberjack that wore a mask. Ah, the old days.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
I love the idea of joining an established team. And player supergroups could be spin-offs of the main teams the way you had groups like New Mutants or West Coast Avengers in the comics.
One further thought about the budgeting tool we're working on - it's a personal hope of mine that it will help the families that invariably allow their kids to have an account will use it to have early conversations about budgeting and personal finance. One of the harsh lessons I learned in college was that there are many people who are exceptionally skilled when it comes to managing money for other people and organizations, yet couldn't balance their own cheque book if they had Archimedes himself helping them.
When it originally came up in our internal discussions, I hadn't even considered the ethical implications (though in hindsight they're incredibly obvious). My initial suggestion was actually purely selfish - I will freely admit that I tend to be far too careless when it comes to the cash shops for F2P games, such that the only real safeguard I have is that money I spend on games can't be spent on books. It is difficult for me to properly articulate how pleased I am to see how positively my selfishness has been received in this regard. It's nice to know that even when I'm trying to be selfish, I end up doing something incredibly altruistic.
I don't know what's more unusual - that I honestly didn't realize the ethical implications or how people would respond to the idea of giving an MMO a budgeting tool, or that a purely selfish suggestion is anything but.
It is only when we stand up, with all our failings and sufferings, and try to support others rather than withdraw into ourselves, that we can fully live the life of community.
[color=#ff0000]Business Director[/color]
I am reminded of a quote from "The Worldwound Gambit", where a Master Thief is getting together a group of his comrades to stop a demon incursion, because having demons overrun their area would be bad for business. "Forget heroism. I'm telling you, this is the only selfish thing to do!" :) Whatever your intentions, well done!
Shocking Blu
Of course, with many of the players I knew in CoX, it would be more like the Great Lakes Avengers than the West Coast Avengers! :D
Shocking Blu
I'm not sure I'd call your motives "selfish" in the negative sense of that word. You simply realized that a QoL game feature that would help you personally handle something that actually affects a part of your life -outside- of the game would also likely help other people in a similar fashion. ;)
Frankly if you want to get all "meta" in terms of helping families manage this game you could also consider a "times up" timer for kids so that parents can manage how much they play the game. While no one cares if silly adults play this game 23.5 hours a day parents might actually want to put a cap on how much time young kids play.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yes, I miss when Marvel Comics were comics, and told stories, instead of making political statements between reboots.
Shocking Blu
Wouldnt know, since they havent done that yet. I have seen larger diversity and a wider range of characters though, which is cool, and they've been telling plenty of stories.
Ask yourself why you want this.
Then ask yourself why you think it would be good for the game (other than it just "[I]wouldn't bother me[/I]").
Then ask yourself who it could negatively impact (and how).
MWM has already said that options will be obtainable two ways and there is a majority positive reaction here. We have won. The messaging is simple and people will embrace it.
Why do you want to throw a wrench into things and make the issue complicated for WMW?
It's like saying: "We saved one hundred Dalmatians from cruel and inhumane conditions. After they are checked by the vet and given vaccinations they will be made available for adoption. Oh? That other one? We ran out of hands to carry them all, so we euthanized him."
Admit it, you just want to be a special snowflake and you want to win your argument.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
Wow, thats super rude.
Another good reason is they want to see MWM competitively price and make as much money to sustain a game that will take constant upkeep to run, so anything that will make them money is a good thing. Its cool that MWM has decided otherwise, but Lothic is just pointing out people are willing to pay for the extras if they decide to do so.
I understand its your opinion that the negative impact would be higher than the positive net revenue, but thats not a complete concrete fact, and I agree with Lothic that a small percentage, especially things that may take considerable resources to implement, would be worth some extra money.
Lets try not to jump into insults.
Champions Online is based on a pre-existing IP. The Champions tabletop rpg.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
So many ideas start this way. "You know what I wish we had..."
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
In my experience, that's how half the best ideas come around. Someone has a funny little thought about something personal to them, and then someone else realizes how it's actually applicable to more than that.
As soon as Terwyn mentioned it, we realized pretty instantly that it was a great idea to let parents make sure their kids didn't spend everything, and then about a half second later, that it was a great idea to make sure EVERYONE didn't spend everything.
About twenty seconds later we were wondering 'Why don't other games do this?' and 'Huh. No, I can't think of another game that does this. I think we have an original idea here. More games should do this.'
(The rest of the best ideas hit you a few hours after you've been working on the subject, while you're eating dinner or walking around or something, out of complete left field.)
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
World of Warcraft is based on Warhammer Fantasy.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
That's true, the original Warcraft game started out as a Warhammer game.
[Img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/014/033/knowing.jpg[/img]
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
And this is yet another reason why I believe you are carrying the spirit of the old game forward with CoT. There were so many wonderful features in the old game that no other MMO seems to have implemented, so it's nice to see that MWM is thinking, 'What cool stuff is no one else doing?' rather than 'How can we do exactly what all the other MMOs are doing?'
Spurn all ye kindle.
Precisely. That was an unnecessary and juvenile statement that boiled down to "You disagree with me, so you're a mean person!"
Shocking Blu
Guys, guys, c'mon, drop the chain, it's been fully expressed, and it doesn't need to go any further.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
On a semi-related subject (or perhaps for a future business-oriented update) is there any more info on 'free trial' implementation in CoT? I know a while back MWM was considering allowing people to try the game for free as long as they were playing with a paid player; have the details of this been hammered out yet?
Since the old game was shut down the people I used to play with have gone their separate ways. When CoT goes live I hope to be able to entice many of them back, but I expect they'll want to try before they buy, so I'd be interested to know how that will work, assuming it will still be a thing. I certainly hope it will, because I think a limited free trial is a great sales tool. I wouldn't have ever played the old game (and wouldn't be here now) if it weren't for a free trial provided by the magazine Computer Gaming World.
Spurn all ye kindle.
Marvel Heroes was not okay, in fact it failed in a few years.
Diablo-clone gameplay means nothing if you still got into a superhero-market where all other titles make you customize your hero... and you come with pre-set chars just because you think the "Marvel" brand is enough to get money. It wasn't and they learned it the hard way, but players that still defend that lack of customization evidently didn't learn from that failure.
I like Diablo style rpgs, isometric cameras and I'm a Marvel fan (with a library full of old paper-comics and even more digital ones) and I barely tried the game before its fall in the basket, that's how much it was not okay for me, the perfect summary of their best target, figure the rest of the peoples.
City of heroes with no brand was one of the top 5 mmorpgs the first years of release, with World of Warcraft at the top, Lotro etc.
Marvel heroes ditched out the feature "Create your hero in the Marvel universe" (or "Create your mutant in the Xavier's school", think how beautiful would that be) and lost, let's remember it as the mistake it is, so nobody will ever repeat it.
Marvel heroes really didnt fail because of the only IP character set however, there were a number of things wrong with the game, including lack of endgame content and a hard to accomplish multiplayer due to hugely varying eq tiers/powerlevels. It didnt even come down to finances when it quit, there were many other politics at work too.
The creating character thing is largely a matter of personal preference. Playing Rocket Raccoon on an MMO is literally *the* reason I signed up for Marvel Heroes' Beta and stuck with it through its entirety. Had the only option been to create an original character, I doubt it would've allowed for me to create someone as unique as Rocket. In any case, I spent many, many hours on the forums and in game from its PC Beta, through the console version, until its end. I saw nothing to indicate that was the cause of its downfall. I'll also add there was a lot of enthusiasm from the community about favorite heroes they wanted added - much, much more than people asking for custom characters. If anything, new hero releases slowling down (and they slowed down majorly towards the end, one or two a month, to one every three months or worse) is one thing that caused a lot of people to grow bored of the game.
It was largely a combination of financial woes and upper management miscues. The idea for a console version was very much mishandled (and kept completely secret for many months) and led to some very unpopular changes being made to core systems of the game. These changes were justified in a series of blogs using grand rhetoric to justify them (but as we learned later on, they were primarily made to compensate for the then-planned console version). I unfortunately was one who took the claims in the blog at face value - I loved the game, still miss it, and I wanted to give the developers the benefit of the doubt. Not only did the planned console launch cause a generally unpopular update, it nearly cost them to lose the PC license for the game altogether. Then there was the matter with them removing Fantastic Four as a property from the PC version (now we know, it was likely a condition of them rescuing the nearly dead PC license). The community manager put up a post warning people the Fantastic Four heroes, costumes, etc. would be removed from store but his post was quietly removed and them being removed from game was never officially acknowledged. That community manager was fired soon after. It was all sorts of messes like that at the end. They had "random" login card rewards, that could give store discounts. Some people were claiming that new customers who never spent money on the game were getting the larger store discounts more than veterans - I again sided with the devs when they said such a trend was unintentional. We found out after sunset, it had absolutely been true, new customers were given big discounts more than long-time spenders. They tried to make costumes on console-side only obtainable from random lootboxes - despite specific costumes having always been purchasable a la carte on the PC side. It was clear at the end, nearly everything was an attempt at monetization.
But it wasn't likely the financial issues alone that were the final issue for the game. The original CEO was David Brevik (Marvel Heroes' creator and the visionary behind Diablo), he quit because he wanted to be more hands-on with programming and work on his own projects again, instead of doing the executive thing. His replacement did not have the depth of experience in game design that Brevik did and some things - won't go in to specifics here - were discovered about the new CEO's history. It is very likely the CEO drama, along with Marvel Games declaring around that same time they wanted to re-focus their games on the mobile division that caused Disney to drop Gazillion's contract. From all indications, it was a decision on Disney/Marvel's end. Although, Gazillion did collapse as a result of the sunset and employees were not paid due benefits, still haven't been (I followed and knew some of them well on Twitter)
CoH did it... it's really JUST that simple. Did I "win my argument" with that?
But to be clear when I asked myself "why I'd want this" my answer was I'd like to have more ways to GIVE MWM MORE MONEY. Does that make me a "special snowflake"? My god how asinine can a person get...
If you honestly can't handle a game's cash shop selling a few COSMETIC items that can only be had from the cash shop then frankly I'd call you the "special snowflake" for not being able to deal with simple market transactions to help the company we want to succeed make a little bit of extra money.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Something came to mind about the budgeting tool with setting a monthly limit on spending. Do the Stars earned from a monthly subscription count against that monthly cap? Or is the budget cap only regulating direct purchases in the cash shop via credit card? That may be a distinction that could cause confusion with people setting a monthly budget cap.
Heroes get remembered, but Legends never die.
Protect the pack kid, no matter how much it hurts. If everyone else in the pack is safe, you can carry on or die knowing you've done your duty. - Fanfiction
I think the budgeting tool regulates money spent, not stars earned, so it would make send that the $15 (or whatever the monthly is) is part of that spending cap. Say you set $30, you have your monlthy and $15 additional.
Im not a dev, but that seems how it would logically progress.
Whether or not you are counting your sub allowance in your budget is a player decision, not a dev decision.
[center]--------------------------[/center]
[center][color=#ff0000]Interior Map Lead and UI Designer[/color][/center]
I'm okay with unlocking costume parts per character, and if I want something for every character for whatever reason tossing a fiver at it.
Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.
It changes the messaging around costume options and it can change the way people view the cash shop, especially over time if more fancy items are added and the divide widens.
A little bit of extra revenue is nice, but will it cover the cost to actually create, test and deploy that asset? If a large enough percentage of the player population does buy these super-special cash shop only versions, what does that say about the cash shop and MWM's "intentions" when people start complaining about "cash grabbing". Is it worth the possible negatives? If it were available to acquire via play and/or purchase there would still be plenty of people willing to pay for it since it is higher quality.
If it is just purely a wish to see MWM get the proper funding, donate to the Patreon (or whatever they have operational once the game is live). Or maybe allow users to gift subscription time to other players, that way they can spend the stars themselves.
"Just, well, update your kickstarter email addresses, okay? Make sure they're current?" - warcabbit
I think the portion of players that find minimal cash shop items as a detractor are few, and those that would call it a cash grab even fewer. I feel it absolutely would be worth the negatives.
I also would love MWM to take risks on things that might not be worth making otherwise, things that may cost too much production time to be given for free because its not just a costume change or a reskin, but hefty work on new animations or, as was talked about in another thread, say an entirely new character frame to accomodate multiple arms. Its possible some of those things might be too much work if they couldnt directly assure they will receive funding for it.
Your concern about the view of the company seems highly exaggerated, and I dont feel the small scale of what Lothic is talking about would impact image much.
Telling one person to donate to a patreon is not the discussion nor relevant. We're discussing the acceptance, or not, of a pay structure to generate funds across the entire playerbase.
Try as we might we don't live a social democratic utopia quite just yet. Companies like MWM can't afford to provide a game like this without eventually becoming at least vaguely concerned about "making money" at some point.
Obviously it will always be debatable at what point does selling cosmetic items in a cash store transition from something that's positively beneficial to the players involved to something that's seen as nothing but a "negative cash grab". Unfortunately it would seem that your threshold for when that might happen in CoT is the very instant MWM would sell ANYTHING that can't be earned by playing the game. Fortunately I tend to see things a bit more pragmatically and realize the "effective threshold" is likely a wee bit greater than ABSOLUTE ZERO.
I believe you've taken what's normally a reasonable concern about "a game company being tempted to become greedy" and turned that sentiment up to 11 against MWM when I hardly see that it's warranted in their case. Why don't we give MWM a chance to prove their own word when they claim that they are "not in this just for a cash grab". Are you so cynical that you're unwilling to give MWM a chance on this?
Again I'll cite CoH itself as a very successful case of offering a reasonable range/percentage of "special costume items" that could only be gained in its cash shop. While I suppose there might have been a few people (like yourself perhaps) who hated that I can very confidently presume that such people were in the extreme minority. I honestly don't remember a huge backlash against CoH's cash shop or people running around claiming silly things like "CoH messaging has been ruined" because of it.
One more time I get that you seem to have something against "cash shop only" items. I too believe there's a point where it can clearly become excessive and/or obnoxious. I suppose I simply have more faith that the folks at MWM will do their best to prevent things from getting to that point.
P.S. When it comes to CoT I'm very likely going to be labeled what the MMO world coins as a "whale". I was one of those in CoH and if CoT pleases me I'll likely be again. But just because I'm fortunate enough to be able to spend a lot of money on a game like this doesn't make me "evil" or another person who can't spend as much a member of the "repressed masses". The fact that I can spend more here doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else and certainly doesn't justify that other people get to be jealous of me because of it. Some people spend more on games than others - it happens and it's not an "automatic failure" of the game that needs to be corrected at all costs.
If you're willing to talk more about this issue in a calm, rational way I'm willing to talk as well. But this calling me out as some kind of "special snowflake" who simply wants to have everything so that I can lord it over everyone else bullshit has got to stop.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Take a step back, folks, and please end this specific tangent. You're on the same side. Now, we clearly want to keep the game going, and there's going to need to be some flexibility here, but one of the things we'll be doing is delaying new unlockable items from showing up on a badge for a few months. According to our calculations, that should be enough to keep people buying things, while not creating a huge backlog of store only stuff.
If it doesn't work, we'll adjust. But the goal is, currently, and ideally, for everything in the store to wind up unlockable in the game, except for things that might have special conditions on them due to contractual issues.
I think people will be happy to pay for convenience, and it might not be easy to unlock certain things: for example, if we have five cosmetic travel power skins, and you get one by maxing out your travel power at max level, I think people will generally want to alt and buy one rather than waiting all that time. (This is an example pulled out of my head based on Champions' Rainbow Flight, because I needed an example.)
But we're going to make it possible, if you work hard enough - or if you buy one or two, hey, bonus at the end of the day when you hit max.
The more money we make, the more stuff from the shop goes free.
Ideally, we'd give everyone everything for free, but we do need to keep the game running.
(Support us on Patreon! Buy us a Ko-Fi! It really helps. SO much.)
However, I don't think your discussion is going to get out of the unending theoretical level till we have some physical markers to point at.
So can we table it till there's something less theoretical to talk about?
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
sure we can table it, give us something less theoretical.
I will take 1 costume creator SIM please. >_>
but my serious suggestion is that everything in the shop that will be time locked as content be given a "in game unlockable" countdown timer... even if thats a month, AND have the quest arc or badge that unlocks it listed... so if players want to earn it they can start meeting the requirements as soon as its in the shop instead of waiting until its a badge to finally figure out how to get it.
Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.
Well I'd certainly agree that it's usually hard to talk decisively about a subject when the people talking are "unaware" (for whatever reason) of almost literally [i]all[/i] of the facts and details related to the given subject. I'd go so far as to speculate that effectively -every- argument that has ever happened on this forum has been based at least in small part to a lack of crucial information about the game that the Devs probably knew about at the time but hadn't revealed yet.
I simply don't like the blind presumption that "cash store only" items are absolutely evil and should be avoided at all costs. Just like everything else when things are done IN MODERATION there's nothing wrong with it. Based on everything the Rednames here have said about this subject it appears that they will be doing everything within their power to PREVENT the cash store from becoming "just" a cash grab scheme and as of now I have no reason to doubt that.
For what it's worth I'll put my vote in for accepting SOME items to be cash store only, especially if as you imply you're looking to make many of those become what I'd call "temporarily exclusive" by having them be "cash store only" for only a short period of time before you make them earnable by other means. I'm not looking at this from the point of view of how much exclusive stuff I can horde; I'm looking at this from the point of view of what would be fair and reasonable for both the players [b]and[/b] MWM.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That's part of the plan!
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
I had a friend that was into Warhammer, Ogre Battle, Starcraft, Elder Scrolls etc. He got me into the fantasy realm (Minus SC). WoW was the phenomenon (In the mmo world at least), not so much the others before it to my knowledge. He would call Morrowind Elder Scrolls 3, and I was like "3?"
You really had to be into fantasy or a diehard superhero fan to know about CO or WoW origins. I don't think CO lore or pre-WoW history is a vastly popular IP, and I am a CO stan, but didn't know about Battle of Detroit or Defender until I started playing CO.
Batman? Yeah, I know Batman.
Star Trek: The guy with the visor? Forge? I know him.
Greymane?
Thrall?
Varian Wrynn? I doubt these ring a bell instantly, not even for an mmo gamer, but this is something only an avid WoW player would know. Subzero does not appear to be synonymous with temperature past the mid 90s. LoL is a popular mmo too, but I doubt the characters are popular outside of the mmo community.
I guess popular is subjective to your audience. The general Public knows Batman, Thunder-cats, or He-man, not so much the face of the franchises like WoW or LoL.
Every video game franchise has origins, I am not debating that. However, not every game is based off an iconic IP, with characters that are known by many even outside of their audience.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Exactly. Without the "evil corporations", we wouldn't have a whole lot of things we take for granted available. There's nothing wrong with profit being made, especially when the company involved is, as MWM clearly is, bending themselves into a pretzel to be as fair as mortally possible to the customers. If their only, or even primary concern was profit, would they have come up with the idea of "Let's give them the means to limit what the customers spend on us to a budget!"? I think not.
Shocking Blu
Yeah, I am fine with cash shops also.
Will the player-base bend over like a pretzel to support MWM? Maybe, maybe not. I am willing to pay for a title that values the customer. MWM values their customers.
I may be the minority, but I think many people will not mind paying as long as they feel their voices are heard. Many mmo go "P2W" and when they do, communication suddenly becomes scarce. They are more protective and not as open to addressing issues as they once were. It is like they went Hollywood or something, too good to talk to the people they once frequently communicated with.
Resources and time go into costumes. I am willing to pay MWM for their time and resources spend on costumes.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
This is the core of it. People will pay for things they see as having value. As a result, the game has to provide things people are willing to pay for to earn money. I hope they do!
An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".
In many ways, it seems to me that the single most valuable thing an MMO ought to consider itself to have is its player community. Which City of Heroes amply demonstrated the reasons for why things should be considered that way. I only hope that we're even half as effective on that front.
It is only when we stand up, with all our failings and sufferings, and try to support others rather than withdraw into ourselves, that we can fully live the life of community.
[color=#ff0000]Business Director[/color]
City of Heroes was a great and funny game on its own from the first day. I still remember the feeling "Wow a 3D super-heroic GTA online already? I can take the metro? I can stop a theft? I can really and freely fly anywhere with ease (Aion has a worst flyng-gameplay than City of Heroes had years before)? I can create a cyborg, a monster or anything I want?"
Even without the community, which I didn't use much (apart from teaming and costume contests). I played entire months without supergroups often thanks to its incredible team-matching system. Yes once you were in team the community helped but there were days we didn't say a word and simply stomped minions after minions.
The community added another incredible value, yes, and we got the final "fun" score that was that high, but the game was already a miracle in that year. Closest mmorpg to be action combat at that time, best character creator, best team-finding features (newbies could play with lvl50 pros etc.), pretty unique mmorpg with non-fantasy world (with just Anarchy Online and SWG with future cities)... the first day I joined the beta I couldn't believe my eyes and my fun, playing alone.
I haven't tried Aion, but I've tried a lot of MMOs since 2012, and I've always found this sort of thing to be true: the newer games for some reason can't seem to get right the things that our old game did so perfectly. I often found myself wondering whether the old game was made with some sort of Atlantean or Assassin's-Creed-Precursor technology, the secrets of which were lost to humanity after the shutdown.
So far it sounds like MWM has found that hidden chest of ancient wisdom.
Spurn all ye kindle.
I'm guessing most if not all folks hanging out in this thread are already doing so but to be sure, MWM's Patreon is here:
https://www.patreon.com/HiJinx
If you've said to yourself that you'd be willing to go ahead and start paying a monthly sub to support CoT, if you've asked for a kickstarter second wave, then the Patreon is where you need to be. It doesn't take much from each of us to add up significantly. And you get a monthly comic!
For those of you already onboard with HiJinx, consider upping your donation. I started out at $5 and raised it to $15 back when Patreon announced their fee structure changes, I'm contemplating upping it again. Anyone else up for the challenge?
Not quite up to the task. In for $5.
[b][color=red]Reward tactics as well as damage dealing.[/color][/b]
Maybe when I can pay my bills again.
Shocking Blu
I appreciate you just considering it.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Lol and still Lol
The needs of the many , far outweigh the needs of the few . Or the one.
Personally I blame Millennials and Smart Phones for this. At least I'm old enough to get away with "get off my lawn" thoughts like that. ;)
Lol and still lol
The needs of the many , far outweigh the needs of the few . Or the one.
I'll do more than consider it if I ever get my feet under me again, financially. :) I'm playing SWTOR currently, but comics and superheroes is my first love.
Shocking Blu
Just pledged $15/mo. I didn't know this was an option!
I was heartbroken that i missed out on the kickstarter since City of Heroes was my first mmo and nothing since has compared. I'm glad to be able to contribute what i can.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Sorry if this has already been asked but what kind of costumes parts based on licensed content will be available for purchase? Clothing items & apparel from from fashion labels or items from other Super Hero/Anime/Manga/Fantasy/Action IP?
Issue 0 CoH player barely let my subscription lapse before NC Soft called it quits; my incarnate gear *Sniff*
Global: Chance Jackson; Triumph: Liege Cheetatron X, Fight of Your Life, Down Right Fierce, Infernal Samurai, Time May Change Me etc
going to bet a dollar the answer to "other IPs" being available is exactly.... zero, zero chance.
anyway i want stuff from this universe ^_^
Supporting how I can, Starting up a DA group for art, stories, and concepts to be collected
http://city-of-titans.deviantart.com/
Please join up if you plan to make or collect CoT related art.
Yeah I highly doubt when our Rednames here say "licensed content" that'll be anything directly from like DC, Marvel or other "big name" IPs. Based on their responses it doesn't even sound like it might be from UGC either. I guess it's possible they've found some third party costume items being offered from other professional artists/companies that are in the business of selling content to games like this. Like I also asked the other day it'll be interesting to see what the "licensed content" means in this context.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
We have an agreement for one licensed character from another IP. It's not Marvel or DC, it's a small press that belongs to a friend of mine.
We'll see how these things go.
But yes, the exception is mostly meant to cover things like 'Thanos in Fortnite'. It's certainly, uh, not something we're _planning_ on doing, but I don't want to exclude the possibility of something awesome.
My _ideal_ licensed property for CoT would be an Atomic Robo summer crossover.
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
It's cool that you are looking ahead to those kinds of possibilities. Always better to have the "infrastructure" in place so that things like that can be quickly "injected" into the game rather than to not be ready for it and maybe lose out on some opportunities to add things to the game.
I'm still hoping you might eventually be able to make deals with specific key players for this - as I've said elsewhere I have no real artistic ability but I'll bet there might be several dozen players out there who are very good at doing this kind of thing (i.e. modding costumes for other games) and who would love to be able to help you add more items to this game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Oh, yes. There's certain tax issues on several levels there - 'if you can translate credits into real world cash, there's a good chance you're either a bank or gambling' is what it sums up to, but we're trying to find ways.
Now. Everyone. Enough of you backed Hijinx that I'm not going to have to pay some of the server bills this month out of my pocket.
Thank you _so_ much.
And remember, there's a Q&A going on in it!
[color=#ff0000]Project Lead[/color]
Glad it's helping!
"I don't think you understand the gravity of your situation."
It seemes that the Chaos is helpful :D
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[color=red]PR - Europe[/color]
Good to hear!
Shocking Blu
It's better to give MWM our coin than to swallow it!
Spurn all ye kindle.
I’m very excited about what I have seen costume wise and can’t wait to see how layering of clothing will go with wing sets and how certain things will look
YES ALSO THIS
I think it's closer to the other way in that we've gained tools that didn't really exists back then or at least weren't so readily available, namely "business analytics".
My feeling is that the "old" games were made much more with "gut feeling" and "heart" so as to create a game that people were willing and perhaps even happy to spend money on. While today it seems most are based on statistics in an effort to first and foremost maximize ROI with "player happiness" being the third or lower consideration.
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