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I know I'll probably get shouted down, or derided for this, and I understand about MWM being a volunteer organization, and there being unforeseen difficulties, but I'm tired. I'm tired, and frankly, I'm dissatisfied.
Almost five years ago, I invested four figures into this effort, and almost five years later I feel like I'm exactly as close to playing the game as I was then, which is not at all close. That is not money I couldn't afford, and it's not money I need now, but I'd like to think that at some point I will see a return on that investment.
I joined CoH around January 1 of 2008, which means I have been waiting longer to play CoT than I played CoJ.
And honestly, I'm not a young man. I've developed a lot of new aches and pains over the last 5 years. I'd like to think I still have another 30-40 years left in me, but who really knows once you pass the half century mark?
So anyway, just my two cents. I'm sorry if this makes anyone feel bad, but, well... honestly no, I'm not. A lot of people invested a lot of money in this venture a long time ago, and for Pete's sake, we're owed a game.
What other business is going to invest $600,000+ dollars into something and then just continually say, "Meh, take your time. No rush. 2018? 2019? 2020? Who cares? When it's done it's done"? No reasobable business would invest that kind of money without an established deadline or penalties for missing it.
So yeah MWM is a volunteer workforce and they already have all the money they're going to get, but they still owe their investors something. And I'm sorry if that means working weekends and holidays and 30 hour weeks in addition to a full time job, but you guys signed up for this, and you owe it to all the people who investef in you!
I know this is probably a rambling mess of a rant at this point, but I'm frustrated and disappointed, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Omegawatt, if I understand the gist of your post, you’re basically saying “hurry up and finish this game before I die”?
That seems a tad dramatic.
Also, if you think you’re no closer to playing the game now than you were 5 years ago you’re not paying any attention at all.
"The next Ship of Heroes Alpha activity will be a login test for supporters, likely in July of 2018. Following that, several other Alphas are expected with a first Beta test at the end of 2018. Launch is expected in 2019. Ship of Heroes is being developed by a small team, and appreciates your donations and support. Donations can be given here:"
If things stay on track, we will be playing the successors sometime this year. Wow, that is crazy to say. It has been a long time coming. Testing isn't pretty, but I believe everyone is thirsty to get their hands on some form of tangible assets. Although SoH will have a playable zone, I really want to play with CoT's pet and hero character generators. It may sound crazy, but I prefer the creator to the zones at this point.
As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.
Turns out we have at least a few things in common. Like you I also invested four figures in the original CoT Kickstarter. It was money I thankfully could afford to contribute but I too would like to think I'll eventually get something tangible for it. I'm pushing the big 5-0 and don't like to think that I might be closer to the end of my "game playing career" than the beginning of it. And yes I will freely admit I sometimes get a bit frustrated we haven't collectively gotten at least to the open beta stage of this endeavor yet even if that means the "launch" would still be another year or two away.
But I continue to hold out hope that MWM is making enough meaningful progress to make the wait worthwhile at this point. If we can really measure the release of the character builder in terms of months instead of years then I'm willing to wait those few more months. Obviously time will tell of course - if we're still sitting here another year from now without much more overt content to look at then sure I'm going to be that much more disheartened.
It might be harsh (or trite?) to say it in these terms but there's really nothing people like us can do to help or hurt MWM's current chances of getting CoT launched so it's almost better not to let it worry you too much one way or the other. We've lived a lot of years without a game like CoT to play and I suspect we'd be able to move on if it ends up not happening. We're already at the worst point we can be at right now without having the game to play - things can't get any worse and can only get better (assuming the game does eventually launch). Looking at it from this point of view helps me put up with the waiting... maybe it'll help you too.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I'm pretty sure everyone would like to be playing the game right now, but, well, making games (especially games as big as an MMORPG) takes time - many years in fact. This is true even for big studios and there is no way around it. That's just the way it is.
I have no skin in the game, so to speak - I'm not a backer - but I'm of the opinion that in order for the game to find success beyond the 5000 or so backers (and it HAS to), then it can't be released as a half-working pile of crap, and I think that sentiment is shared by the majority of potential customers. Basically it comes down to the "designer's dilemma": Fast/Cheap/Good - choose two. The only thing is MWM is locked in as "Cheap" - they don't have the millions afforded to AAA studios - so it could be a bad game (fast and cheap) or it will take time to lay a solid foundation and develop properly (good and cheap). The latter is the route MWM has taken. We will see in the next few months the first fruit of the dev's labours I hope.
I know how you feel Omegawatt, though I didn't put in four figures, but that's only because I couldn't at the time.
Though I do wonder if some of the problem was them going from one game engine to another with a better deal? At the same time, I too would like a good game.
I bet I represent a lot of us out here who pop in to a forum now and then to get a feel for progress but don't comment. We are longing for the actual, bona fide, complete, unadulterated, launch but we understand the pace at which development is proceeding:
As the Neurosurgeon says to the patient, "Which part do you want me to speed up on?"
As for me, CoH 2006 to the bitter end, I say "Slow your roll and get it right!"
The game was projected to release late 2015, that’s what was on Kickstarter. At this point it’s unlikely to have something really playable 3 years after that projection (though hopefully we’ll have the character creator by then).
Kickstarter rewards routinely take longer to fulfill than planned, anyone familiar with the site should expect that. And the gaming industry is prone to delays, especially MMOs. But even with all of that, being 3+ years late is going to frustrate people. I get it. I’ve backed many KS projects and this is the one that has taken the longest (except one I backed that was abandoned and will never finish). I understand being disappointed. Even when MWM explains why the delays have occurred, it’s a long wait.
What I don’t like is insisting that nothing has been done. That despite the numerous updates, all the various videos and articles showing progress, to act like MWM hasn’t done anything and just took people’s money and goofed around... That I take exception to. That’s just being disingenuous and unfair.
I feel you Omegawatt, and I think most people here do, even those who don't necessarily agree with you. After lots of research, I strongly feel that MWM made the right decisions in changing to UE4 and in taking their time. That doesn't make the wait any less difficult.
Keep up the faith and you'll have your game, and I personally want to thank you and all others who contributed so that we can have a new home. The kickstarter was over by the time I found out about MWM and CoT.
FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)
Unless I missed something, no one is insisting nothing has been done. Some people are expressing frustration with the pace of development, some if which I share. But it's a matter of mixing unequal scales. If MWM had a staff of fulltime paid designers and developers, we should have expected something by now to justify our investment. But they don't. It's going to be a continued slow process. Given that caveat, we don't want them to rush and halfass it.
Intellectually I understand this. Like Omegawatt, emotionally I feel some frustration. But pretending you'll be dead before a release is a little melodramatic. I've got nowhere near that level of angst.
The main fuel of my frustration is that CoX was one of only two MMOs I ever loved, and biding my time with lesser vehicles continually reminds me how much we all lost. My frustration is more from the fact that so many publishers are happy to take money for half-finished, halfassed games that will never come close to what CoX was, and that's precisely why I [i]want[/I] MWM to take the time to make this good.
In response to Omegawatt's post above, I've been patient too and I still expect to get a game to play by the time it's all said and done. A few key points:
1. We're not investors, investors get stock. We're donors. We gave MWM our money with no strings attached except the perks we were promised. The game could sell millions of copies and make tons of money and we'll never see any personal profit off of that for ourselves, whereas an investor would.
2. The pace at which the game is being made doesn't concern me, I think they're doing a decent job at that, given the manpower, hardware, software and time they have had. What I worry about is how and when MWM is going to manage to actually set up a server to host that game so that we can then buy it and play it. I'm not a programmer, and IT pro, or game business insider, I have no idea how much that costs or what the most efficient way to do it is. That said I don't know that MWM has any better idea than I do, because whatever that process or plan is, it hasn't been spelled out on these forums in gory detail to my knowledge.
3. The transition from a volunteer effort to a full fledged indie game studio has to cost money and require people to go from weekend/evening volunteer to full-time employee or else be replaced. Those full time employees will require an annual salary, which I can only assume would come from sales of the game. How that process plays out worries me too. It seems possible they might end up with a working game and then not have the ability to deliver it to a mass gamer audience due to internal money requirements and legal fees needed to do that. Maybe they end up needing a business loan from a bank at that point. Maybe they have to sell the property to a publisher that can actually deliver it to the public, maybe that publisher does that or maybe they buy it and bury it.
4. Speaking of the perks we were promised, there has been communication about the Mogul buildings, despite the fact that they, in my view, kind of over-promised on that at that time. So far all of the other perks, like the Lethal Weapon objects and the Fashionista costume pieces have not been reckoned because the avatar editor is not finished. That said, that avatar editor (or character generator, or whatever) is being worked on now, as I understand it. I'm not as worried about that because I feel like it's stuff they can handle once the game is up and running and they have employees they can put to work on it.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
Oh, and as for the original post, I'll be willing to comment on mez effects and how they're handled when I get to play it. Having played CoX, GW2, and now Overwatch, I feel that the short time duration of the mez effects in the latter two games is largely responsible for the PvP and PvE balance they have.
I know a lot of people LIKE being able to shut down a whole mob for a long time, I mean who doesn't, but as I've said before I think that's just the control freak in all of us rearing its ugly head. Trying to please those people is not something I recommend doing. To make the same old Magic: the Gathering analogy, the Magic deck that's all counterspells is never any fun to play against, and worst of all it doesn't even kill you when it has you locked, it just sits there and waits for you to concede the game or else lose 4 hours later after you draw your last card.
That said, one thing I HATE about Overwatch is the fact that, since it's "action targeting" i.e. "twichyness matters", you end up having to press "a" and "d" and "spacebar" a lot just when you're standing around to make your character duck and dive and jump so that it's harder for snipers to line you up and get a clean shot off. I do NOT want to CoT to be a game that requires that of people.
Edit: Oops, wrong thread.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
You apparently missed...
Which is saying nothing has been done in five years.
Just to be absolutely clear I think we all realize that using the word "investor" to describe the people who "donated" money to the CoT kickstarter effort is not strictly correct. Obviously we didn't get stock in the company nor will we reap any profits from any money MWM ever makes from this. But frankly using the word "investor" as a "friendly euphemism" is far better than the possible appropriate alternative which was that we simply gambled our money away on what might as well be a 50/50 bet. Which sounds nicer: Investor or Gambler?
Besides if you want to be slightly less hyper strict about the definition I actually do think that donators to this game are in fact "investing" in their potential future entertainment value. Sure we might not be getting any return in the limited capitalistic sense of the word but we are betting with our dollars on getting something that will benefit us in terms of enjoyment and satisfaction.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Agreed, there are different ways to invest. Investing just means paying something now in the hope of reaping a benefit later. If you pledge to a project in the hope of playing a game later, that’s literally an investment.
Think of it like a political donation. You’re donating money because you hope that your money helps the candidate get elected, and if they win that your life will be somehow improved by having that person in office. That is also an investment.
Now, with Kickstarter it’s like being an investor but also a customer, because in many cases you expect a reward eventually for the money you pledged. Of course, there are times when you pledge and the project is funded yet your reward can never be fulfilled (as I mentioned that has happened to me before). And often you have no way to get that money back (again that’s what happened to me). So it’s not exactly like being a retail customer.
I’ve waited a long time like everyone else but it looks like MWM is coming very close and I don’t see any reason to feel anything but hope at this point. You don’t give up when the finish line is in sight.
Yeah what they said!
Wait, what?
Oh right, I feel you too Omegawatt. We're all aging and frankly, not all of us all that well. I know I'm not either. I do believe they will get the game out and it will come to fruition as a great successor to COH but yes, patience is hard...
As to the "investment" issue. I agree with Lothic and Atama here. There are various forms of investing. We invest time, money, etc. I feel as though I am an investor in that I have given input to the developers from time to time, I invest hope and faith in their ability to succeed and for all of us to reap the rewards. I have soap-boxed more than once on these forums about not losing faith in our devs and the hope for the game. So investor in the strict wall street definition of the word, no I'm not. Donator, yes I am. Perhaps I simply enjoy rooting for the underdog but I can't stop believing when I see and hear all that has already gone into this endeavor. I hope no one does! I know that's asking a lot for most, but still I hope.
Honestly, my hats off to all the devs, Tannim in particular. I see his posts responding to questions, settling-ish disputes with info over topics in the "grey area" (as I like to call it, those things not yet clearly defined), and then he has life going on around him all at the same time, health/family issues, work, etc. All the devs are great and I love to hear anything they share but this man is obsessed with the meat and potatoes of the game, mechanics!
Just my two cents worth... well maybe a halfpennies worth...
"A sad spectacle. If they be inhabited, what a scope for misery and folly. If they be not inhabited, what a waste of space." ~ Thomas Carlyle
Really? You have so much time on your hands that you felt it was necessary to take the time to post that? Thanks so much.
You asked, I delivered. I am here to serve. :)
Also I felt the need to clarify my earlier statements, to show I wasn’t knocking down a straw man. I was responding to the stated opinion that MWM hasn’t been doing much.
All of you have invested your time, energy, and heart into making CoT what it is, and I hold confidence that we will meet the expectation put on us.
Technical Director
Read enough Facebook and you have to make Sanity Checks. I guess FB is the Great Old One of the interent these days... - Beamrider
Ohh you better do so...
and as far as I can see you certainly are doing so.
Atama, you are mistaken, and I'm sorry if you took my silence as validation. I never said nothing had been done; I said I don't feel like I am any closer to playing the game today, than I did 5 years ago.
If I recall correctly, the original target was a 2015 release, so when I contributed I felt like I was about two years away from playing the game. 2015 came and went, and I didn't say anything. Then 2016 came and went, and I didn't say anything. Then 2017 came and went, and I didn't say anything.
Then June of 2018 came and I read posts from people predicting the Beta phase of the game might start in late 2019 and I decided to say something.
I know work has been done, but just as I felt in 2013 that I was two years away from playing the game, here I am in 2018, feeling like I'm two years away from playing the game. Hence I don't feel like I am any closer to being able to play the game than I was five years ago. That is different than the game being no closer to launching than it was five years ago, which it certainly is.
Devs, please understand I'm not trying to pile on, or double down on my previous comments, I just wanted to straighten out an honest misunderstanding of what I said.
To be honest i am more than happy if they will release the character creation first , because i have seen the teaser and it made me so curios to start trying to access all i can get from it :)) to create me perfect character :)))
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