I tend to think of Lawful villains one of two ways;

Either I picture a greedy, corrupt corporate CEO who uses every legal loophole in the system to exploit or manipulate a situation/person/organization for their own advantage, and never "technically" does anything illegal, but is absolutely a dispicable, terrible person. (A real scum of the earth character who would sell their own mother for a quick buck if they could game the system to say that it wasn't breaking the law.)

Or I interpret it less as "Law" and more as "Order." A villain with a personal honor/ethical/moral code or a rigid and unwavering methodology.

notears wrote:

So something's been bothering me for a while.... what does it mean to be a villain with a high law morality? Like from what I hear the tutorial is a bank robbery and if you're a villain it's pretty much your bank robbery, and yet if you're high law that means you're working with the police soooo.... what does that mean in the contect of this starting mission?

In the context of a bank robbery starting mission your 'lawful villain' wouldn't rob the bank, or at least wouldn't break any laws to do so.
But we don't know how this starting mission plays out so certain assumptions cannot be made. It may not be a binary situation where you either fight the police or the robbers. You may be given the option to not get involved, act as a witness, pretend to try and stop the robbers/ get bribed to let them go or even demand a payment from the bank before acting on their behalf.
We don't even know what might actually cause a shift in the law aspect of alignment. We may not see a shift unless the character is identified or witnessed breaking the law (although thats unlikely).

Alignment (law, honor and violence), as it has been described in this game is different than in most other games. It is not a set of guidelines for a character to follow, it's simply a record of previous actions. This alignment system also does not include the moral aspect that other games include. There isn't a 'good' to put after the lawful component of alignment like there is in D&D for example. The motivations and morality of a character is purely in the hands of the players.
The developers have decided that they will allow the players to make the determination of what makes a hero or villain and have given us a simple tracking system in the form of the games alignment to help us track our personal progress towards that end.
Ultimately, because of the nature of the overall combat focused gameplay, the motivations (where good, evil and everything in between are determined, the morality if you will) of your characters actions will have to be played out in your own mind. It will be up to you to decide the 'whys' to your actions which in turn determine if a character is a hero or villain.

In the context of a bank robbery mission, if you decide to stop the robbery you could decide it was purely to gain favor with the police so that later they may turn a blind eye to certain misdeeds. Or maybe it's to influence public opinion so that you can trade on fame for favors. It could be any of a multitude of selfish reasons which in and of themselves may not be 'villainous' but certainly put the first strokes on a painting of an evil character.

How a characters morality plays out in the game has not been fully explained as of yet but will likely be based on choices you make as you progress through the game. You will probably be given choices which are obvious 'good' or 'evil' options alongside a few of the more morally ambiguous choices that allow you the largest possible freedom in determining your motives and morality.

I would say a huge number of people are "lawful villains" and are largely limited by their means to influence the law. Atama is right though, only the flashy ones are going to make it into a comic book story. People want to read about a bad guy threatening to blow up an orphanage. No one wants to hear about how they legally purchased the land it is on, legally paid off local lawmakers to remove the historic landmark protections on the building, and legally hired a construction company to bulldoze it over the course of many years.

Project_Hero wrote:

Either way, there's tons of ways for people to be evil/villains within the law. Especially if they have a lot of money or political power to throw around. Sure you can take down that villain and get him taken away by the police, but a few calls later, money moving hands, and some legalese and it was all just a big misunderstanding, the villain did nothing wrong and no laws were broken.

This isn't really a lawful character as it has been defined by CoT so far (but could easily be your personal definition), it's a character with influence. In other words, you are describing a character who has a high reputation with certain groups in the game and/or a high amount of wealth.

Kickstarter Updates wrote:

Law is a measure of your character’s willingness to adhere to the laws of Titan City. A Lawful character obeys the law, and tends to respect law enforcement. A Lawless character is almost always a criminal of some sort, and tends to be dismissive of authority

Being able to 'get away with it' is not part of the law aspect of alignment. The law component of alignment refers only to if the character breaks the law, not culpability.

Having friends in political power or law enforcement, high priced lawyers, bribery, fear tactics and the like are all a function of this games reputation system and a characters wealth.

Defining a 'lawful villain' in CoT terms is not going to be universal because it is intentionally vague so that each individual can make their own determinations as to what constitutes a 'Hero' or a 'Villain'.

Kickstarter Updates wrote:

Of course, there is a fourth component to this 3-axis alignment system as well; one that you choose. What is the correct term for your character, in your eyes or their own? Do you consider them a hero? A villain? Somewhere in between?

Everyone's definition of a villain is going to be different in this game.

The alignment system does not define morality, it only tracks what your character has done. If you steal the rare Curse Diamond of the Congo from the natural history museum you will likely see a swing towards lawless. It won't matter if you avoided all detection, got caught but were acquitted, or any of a million other ways to avoid punishment. You stole the diamond and your law alignment is affected. At that point it is up to you the player to decide if what your character did was an act of heroics, villainy or something in between.

Furthermore, the law aspect isn't just lawful or lawless. It works on a scale.

Kickstarter Updates wrote:

These aren’t binary measurements; each of these axes is its own scale designed to determine just how Lawful, Violent, or Honorable your character is. As your character explores Titan City, your actions will determine just where you stand. A hero who occasionally overlooks minor offenses is going to be rated much differently than an anti-authority vigilante.

This scale lets you both act in a lawful manner when you as a player deem it important (such as presenting a law abiding face to the public or law enforcement) while still being able to be lawless when you find it more in character (no witnesses, have a good legal defense and so forth as examples).
This lets you create the publicly lawful villain like a Lex Luthor type, the careful but well known criminal like a mob boss or Kingpin type, manipulative villain that gets others to break the law but never does so themselves like a Purple Man type and so forth. All of which could be easily considered Lawful Villains within the context of this game.
It boils down to how much 'lawful' points a player needs on the scale to personally decide if the character is lawful or not. At any point the player can decide if the character is lawful or not and if they are a hero, a villain or something else.

Another thing to remember is that the game cannot possibly track everything on a lawful/lawless scale. The only times this alignment aspect will come up is at times when the choices you make have a law modifier attached to it. Anything lawful your character does that is not directly associated with a choice won't be tracked. Paying taxes, using crosswalks, reporting crimes, ect... None of these will influence or affect your law alignment. So again it comes down to a players interpretation of their own character to make the final call on if they consider themselves lawful and villainous.
Just remember that how you define your character is not how others will define it.

Project_Hero wrote:

But we're not talking about how others will define a character. We're talking how the -game- will define a character.

The game won't define if a character is a hero or a villain. Even a characters position on the law alignment scale isn't really a description, it's a stat. It's the culmination of the choices you have made most likely with a numerical value. You could have Law= +5 or Law= -5.
Alignment is purely how the individual players define it. You may describe a Law= +/-0 character as 'neutral' and someone else might describe it as 'not a criminal'.

Project_Hero wrote:

Why certainly officer I'll go with you and we'll clear up this little... Misunderstanding. +Law

Choosing to follow the law at that moment could give you a swing towards lawful but it does not change that what you did to make the officer want to take you in could swing you towards lawless. They may balance out, but each is a separate incident that modifies your alignment stat.

Project_Hero wrote:

Having friends in law enforcement seems to adhere to the "respect law enforcement" aspect of the quoted Kickstarter update. A lawful villain would at least feign respect for law enforcement.

And I really hope that they don't just lump all villains (that is folks on villain paths) into the lawless category. It would suck to make a Lex Luthor type villain (read as one that does evil actions) and have said character constantly attacked by police.

There is nothing to adhere to. That update you refer to said 'tends to respect' not 'must show respect'. It's a suggestion nothing more.
As explained by Tannim previously, alignment won't make foes hostile towards you. That again is a function of reputation. Lex Luthor types could have any law alignment and still be in good standing (positive reputation) with the police so they would not be constantly attacked by cops which you say later.
Also, AFAIK, at character creation you are given a chance to pick your alignment (to a degree). I can't remember where I heard this or even if I remember this correctly, so I can't present a source for this.

It's important that people understand that ,according to the devs, alignment does not affect gameplay. I expected alignment to have more impact on the game so I pressed for information and got this:

Tannim222 wrote:

Alignment axis it self doesn't drive game play. It is reflection of choices that have been made, it is descriptive not prescriptive. Choices themselves may affect story lines yes, but not the alignment axis itself.

Tannim222 wrote:

Alignment will not dictate what choices are offered. If the mission offers a series of choices, you will always have the entire listing of choices to choose from. Alignment does not itself dictate anything, it describes what you've done.

Unless something has changed, alignment is nothing more than a stat tracking system that only matters to the player and will not affect any aspect of gameplay. Your law alignment won't cause a reaction in NPC's, it won't give you alternate choices and it won't determine your morality. It just says 'I made this choice in the past'.

Project_Hero wrote:

If the game doesn't let villainous path characters take/make lawful actions there's not much point of there being a tri-axis alignment system. You should, by the inclusion of having the alignment system, be able to play a lawful, non-violent, honorable villain. Same as you can be a lightside sith and Darkside Jedi on SWTOR. Or else what is the point of having the alignment system to begin with?

You can be lawful, non-violent and honorable and still consider your character a villain. The game just won't care what your alignment or morality is because it is left up to you as to what makes someone a villain and to interpret exactly what constitutes lawful based on the tracking info that the alignment system provides.
It's usefulness is up to you but I suspect it will be useful for others who like to have a way to qualify how they define their character.

Project_Hero wrote:

To put it in D&D terms; I'm talking crunch, you are talking fluff. I'm talking mechanics, you are talking RP.

You are conflating alignment (the original topic) first with reputation effects and now with paths.

I am not talking RP. I am pointing out what each of those things do mechanically.

Alignment tracks what choices your character has made in the past. It has no gameplay impact, that's the mechanics of it. Other players can't even see your alignment. It is purely for your personal use. Alignment does not define your character, you do.

Reputation deals with how other groups and your character interact. AFAIK the mechanics of reputation will be different quest options, costume options, friendly/hostile reactions from various groups, and some possible in or out of combat benefits/penalties based on your reputation with various groups. Any character on any path with any alignment (unless the devs havn't told us something) can get a high or low reputation with any group in the game if they work at it. Reputation does not define your character, you do.

Paths are a quest option at various points in a characters career. The mechanics are you get a series of missions every few levels that lean towards the path description, in this case you would get missions with a villainous slant. It's not a complete story that you follow to the exclusion of all else and you still get to pick your response when choices arise both in the path quests and other quests. You may also get certain contacts that offer missions with similar villainous slants but if you choose to be lawful you should be given that option in most cases. Being on a villain path does not make your character a 'villain'. It just offers you villain missions which you can respond to how you choose (within the limits of the game). You can easily decide that your character is an undercover or duplicitous hero and choose to follow a villain path. I suspect that being a lawful character on a villain path will likely be difficult to maintain that lawful stat... as it should be. Just as an unlawful character on a heroic path will likely face complications based on their choices. The point is paths don't define your character, you do.

None of these force a definition on your character. The game simply does not define your character in terms of villains and heroes. There are no 'hero or villain' mechanics in the game. This is a design choice the devs made to allow players the freedom to make those determinations as they individually feel they should be made. They offer alignment, reputation and paths as helpful tools for you the player to make the determination as to what a characters morality is.

Project_Hero wrote:

You can define your character how you want but as long as a path is labeled as a Villain Path then the character on that path, I assume, would be doing villainous acts. The game won't slap a label on your character saying "villain" but the character would still be doing villainous things.

Characters on a villain path will be offered villain choices along with not villain choices. You won't be made to act a certain way. In fact you can side swap as Tyche references here:

Doctor Tyche wrote:

This does not mean side switching will be delayed, but the actual path branching framework. It's not being explained very well there.

And here the update itself says:

Kickstarter Updates wrote:

First, we try to maximize options for you to make choices within the Path that let you experience it in the way that best fits your conception of your PC.

You won't have to do villainous things even when on a villain path.

Project_Hero wrote:

Law/violence/honor is alignment, Hero/Villain is path.
A lawful character on the villain path. A lawful villain. Mechanically that is what you are. It doesn't matter how you head cannon it.

There are 2 hero and 2 villain paths at launch but there are plans for more. There are no restrictions placed on your character, they are just a story that gives you options on how to respond. Paths are intended to present you with guidance, not hard and fast rules/restrictions. This is from the update:

Kickstarter Updates wrote:

Second, we’ve structured the Path system itself to give ourselves—and you—some guidance. Since we can’t customize every aspect of a Path for you, we’re creating several Paths that fit a broad variety of concepts.

Paths are a way to help tailor your game experience, not a way to pigeonhole you into a specific classification. Further clarification was made here by Tyche when desviper asked a question:

Doctor Tyche wrote:

desviper wrote:

My understanding is these are just templates, not alignments. A grey-hero might be following the Villain South path, gathering seedy(?) allies for a questionable cause.

Pretty much.
Punisher is a clear example of a "Villain South" character, for example.

Villainous activity is never forced on your character through any mechanic. The path itself is just called a 'villain' path to illustrate what story the game will present to the character. The character still has every freedom to respond how they see fit, be it heroically or villainous. Obviously how heroic or villainous is dependent on what options you are presented with through story progression.

Project_Hero wrote:

All the head cannon and self definition would not change the mechanics that you are on a villain path. The mechanics are not going to care about why your character is on that path. As far as the path mechanics go your character is a villain. That is the narrative. You can minimize the bad you do, alignment choices, but you are still on this narrative path. You are still a villain as far as the mechanics go. You will likely fight heroes. You may be inacting a plan to take over the world. You, in this narrative, are a villain.

Again, the path system allows you a clear path to act that way if you so choose but you are not forced to do so. You can flip the script and behave contrary to your path. You are only a villain if you choose to be (and based on your own definition of 'villain'), regardless of path. Whats more, being on a path does not force you to play any path mission so you can completely ignore some or all of those missions in order to tailor your experience even further. You are in control of the narrative (as much as the devs can allow for of course) so even when on a villain path you are not mechanically considered a villain. The narrative might presume you want to be a villain, but according to the information we have now you will not be forced to follow that narrative. Again, from the update:

Kickstarter Updates wrote:

A Path is more than just a good/evil choice and a tone that’s set for your character’s adventures. Each Path features multiple Series as well as an overarching story about your character’s growth. Using our quest system’s ability to “remember” choices and discoveries you’ve made during play, we have been able to give each Path recurring NPCs with whom you can build connections, friendly or hostile. Your choices will influence not only how the NPCs view you but also, as the Path proceeds, the roles they play.

The paths system will remember your choices and respond accordingly (within limits). Mechanically it will almost certainly provide ways to not only minimize the villainous aspects of a path but when coupled with the ability to switch sides (as it were) you can go from the vilest scum to the noblest paragon and anything in between. You choose.

I suspect the initial paths will be more narrowly focused than future paths because the starting 4 have goals relating to criminal activity and crime fighting. It may be hard to create morally flexible, mercenary or path contrary characters (hard not impossible) with the first four paths because they involve morality directly. I believe the release paths are designed to be a bit more rigid just to give us players an easier time acclimatizing to a new game. But they will still offer enough freedom to explore personal desires.
I am fairly certain future paths will not be as focused on the morality of a character as they will be on other common genre archetypes and goals like the detective, the manipulator, the fallen from grace, the scorned/emotionally wounded, the oath taker/breaker, the double agent, the spy and whatever else they may come up with. It would make more sense from a time management and cost effectiveness standpoint if future paths used branching (as opposed to separate paths) to explore all moral implications of a characters actions. A path might set a goal of finding your parents killers but allow you to take any route to get there be it criminal, lawful, good or evil, super powered or street and have widely branching missions to reflect these options for example. These future paths would be more fluid and offer more replayability as I see it.

But this is all tangential to the op's topic. I gave him an answer as I see it and without further information we are probably going to continue to disagree.

Project_Hero wrote:

Brainbot wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:

Brainbot none of what you quoted says you can "flip the script" of a path. And it's far too early to be able to nail down anything definitive about the system. Until we see what we can and can't do within a path all this is just speculation.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

This does not mean [b][i]side switching[/b][/i] will be delayed

Tyche is saying you can switch sides, flipping the script as it were.

Which would likely be going from one path to another. Not being a hero on a villain path.

Crossing paths is not a launch feature. Both Tyche and Furballs have made that clear.
My suspicion is that you would probably be able to abandon a path to change a narrative you are not enjoying at launch. At least until they have enough paths and branches to allow for path switching.