Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

We've got a three-axis alignment system. Maybe the real question is, do we need guilds to have server-level limits on these alignments? Do we auto-kick characters who get out of bounds?

I'd say leave it up to the players. That was we can RP scenes like the JLU episode "Double Date" wherein Huntress loses her league membership. And it's way better RP potential to be stepping out of line secretly rather than getting auto-kicked.

I vote no on the auto-kicking. Mostly for in universe reasonings, who or what evicts someone from a super team? How does such a thing know the character in question stepped out of line? Are all heroes and villains monitored 24/7 in this world? Wouldn't that make it real easy to catch badguys?

[img]http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2015/08/batman-forever-too-many-questions-146951.jpg[/img]

I don't think anyone should be able to see another's alignment. It doesn't make much sense to me that you'd be able to tell a person is a violent hero just by looking at them. What, do they have it on their name tag?

I guess at best it'd be more of a I have heard of this person and know where they stand. But still, it's hard to be secretly going down a darker path if everyone knows just by looking at you. Things like the Judas contract would have been very easily solved if they just knew Terra's standing.

Fireheart wrote:

Dressed in black armor, surrounded by mist and shadow, she siphons the life out of enemies and transfers that strength to herself... On her chest is a bright yellow badge that reads "HI! My Name Is: [b][i]Black Valkyrie[/i][/b] I'm a True Blue Hero!"

Sure, that makes sense.
/irony

That was pretty much my blue side Dark/Dark Scrapper, though. See also Raven.

Raven, Etrigan the Demon, Kid Devil, The Shade, Blue Devil, freeking Batman.

Like, if you knew nothing about Batman and met him would you think he was a hero? He sneaks around and dresses like a nightmare.

[img]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YuF4bBIVL._SX335_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg[/img]

I guess the thing is why should you be able to check another character's alignment? What reason would you have to know it other than for RP reasons? If alignment matters anywhere it's in RP. Don't want villains in your super team? That's RP.

What difference does it make to non-RPers if they can see another's alignment or not? If the answer is none, then the alignment is strictly an RP thing to other players like a character bio. Which then if one wants it known to other players they can put their alignment in their bio. Or maybe there's a toggle option to have your alignment be viewable or not.

Impulse King wrote:

Alright after some searching and a quick break to play a game with my sick at home son, I found the quote. It's post #18 in this thread.
https://cityoftitans.com/forum/how-should-pvp-phase-play-give-your-visions-here

Quote:

We already have our alignment system (see our update Beyond Good and Evil). It is a tri-axis alignment. It is descriptive of the character's actions aelected bu the player at key moments. Players don't see other player's alignments - it is information for the player about their character. As such, it isn't used to enforce a player-faction segregation system.

As it should be.

Edit: I hope your son gets well soon!

Likely because a headline would have a picture with it. If it's a news story there'd be either a picture or at least a description.

Project_Hero wrote:

Likely because a headline would have a picture with it. If it's a news story there'd be either a picture or at least a description.

Maybe we could get a look at each other's milestones or whatever they'll be called.
For example, the way the tutorial will go we'll possibly get a newspaper mock up at the end wether we saved or robbed the bank.

With hidden alignments just think of the idea of a villian taking on an alternate identity in order to infiltrate a hero's supergroup so they can work on stopping them from thwarting their plans as well as learning more about the various hero's strengths and weaknesses. Can see that having all sorts of RP potential. And also not everyone who plays is going to be roleplaying so a group of friends might just put together a group for themselves so that they can play together without others harrassing them to join their groups, as well as if bases/headquarters get added later, want to custimise a place of their own just to hang out ingame.

And if people want to make sure their running a pure hero/villian group, then they should take the time to get to know the player and their character first before inviting as this would give both sides the opportunity to descide if they want them to join.

Redlynne wrote:

Actually ... try this one on for size ...?

In Hero ID, Alignments are visible.
In Secret ID, Alignments are NOT visible.

But why? Why would alignments need to be visible? What difference would it make to non-RPers?

Alignment is not rep.
Reputation in this game is by faction basis.

Alignment is based off your decisions. And has nothing to do with whether you are a hero, villain, or anything in between.

Alignments are not visible to other players.

We don’t have a secret ID system.

Tannim222 wrote:

Alignments are not visible to other players.

Awesome

Tannim222 wrote:

Alignment is based off your decisions. And has nothing to do with whether you are a hero, villain, or anything in between.

Could the Paths (dialogue options) modify our alignment ?

Reputations aren’t visible to other players either. Well, except when you see someone getting attacked for just walking by, that might give you a clue ;)

Redlynne wrote:

Secret reputations that no one besides the Player is allowed to know.

Also now on sale ... self licking ice cream cones!

Others are allowed to know, a player can tell another player about it.

Not really sure what the ice cream reference is for.

And again I have to ask why you'd need to know another character's standing with various factions.

If they get attacked by said faction obviously they're not on good terms. If they get thanked, good terms.

Does every DC hero know Batman's standing with the GCPD? No.

How about various heroes' standing with Cadmus? Nope.

How about heroes standing with the Justice League? Hm seems only justice league members (and possibly the specific heroes in question) tend to know where people outside their organization stand with them.

yeah and the red lanterns now are a grey guild I believe...

Lord Nightmare wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:

He sneaks around and dresses like a nightmare.

[img]https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51YuF4bBIVL._SX335_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg[/img]

...I don't quite see the resemblance.

As for the SG discussion, SGs meant as a social group allowing all alignments in would be completely fine as otherwise it would kind of ruin the whole.. social.. thing. SGs meant for actual heroics and villainy allowing all alignments in would be somewhat silly. Almost as silly as me attempting to join the Paragons. Since allowing all alignments is, at the moment, the intended idea, it simply requires self policing and, for RPers, IC interviews to ensure that Captain Alright is indeed alright.

A nightmare. Not The LORD Nightmare.

Super hero groups and villain groups have a history of letting in the wrong sort on occasion. Or someone signing up for a group but then it turns out they're not exactly how they seem. I still say it's best to keep alignments always hidden. I mean what you nail the SG interview and then when they go to invite you to the group "uh oh, seems our... Something knows you're evil and can't join."

Also for not having alignment restrictions on supergroups say someone likes to make Superman style heroes. But they've played through the super heroic squeaky clean hero path multiple times already. So they want to change it up, choose some different options, see how it goes. For said player all the story missions for his character are OOC but he can't join the super league of super good guys because they only allow X alignment to join. That, to me, doesn't seem right.

Not everyone is going to treat their alignment as IC: maybe they just really enjoy the villain paths, but don't want to RP a villain. Someone shouldn't be punished for how they choose to play. Or be forced to play a certain way.

Huckleberry wrote:

It looks like you think alignment restrictions would be something enforced by the game system.

I can't speak for others, but when I said that supergroups should be able to have alignment restrictions, I meant that group leadership should be able to see the alignments of their members. Then they can enforce them, or not, or counsel their member, or not, according to their own judgment. Giving the players the agency to enforce their own restrictions is a far better solution than some omniscient game system doing it.

If it has no mechanics then an alignment is a strictly RP thing. How/why in an RP sense would a super team leader just be able to know what alignment all their teammates have at all times?

It makes far more sense from an RP perspective to have them hidden. Then if other team members notice something is off about the new hero on the team they can act on it rather than have the team lead go "hold on let me check this list I have that knows if you've been bad or good."

And again it's hard for a player, a roleplayer, to not act on information. If a team leader looks at their list and sees "Villain" next to a character then no matter how the villain character acts in character they will be treated with mistrust and suspicion.

So again I ask if alignment is a purely RP thing why would anyone else need to know it? Non RPers won't care about others alignments and RPers are better off not knowing other people's alignments so why would it ever need to be shown? Don't want villains getting into your super team? Have a long and extensive interview process. Or if it's really that big of a deal for you ask them OOC. There is no reason for the GAME to tell you someone's alignment.

Although having a power as part of a set that can detect alignments would be alright. Lasso of Truth, mind reading, sensing someone's heart or whatever, that kind of thing. Then that gives an in character reason for how or why you'd know someone's alignment.

Project_Hero wrote:

If it has no mechanics then an alignment is a strictly RP thing. How/why in an RP sense would a super team leader just be able to know what alignment all their teammates have at all times?

Quite easily, perform a background check on the character applying for membership, maybe conduct an interview or two. Remember, alignments in this game are : Honorable, Lawful and Violent. From an RP point of view, it should not be hard at all to dig up the history of a named character to see how they have been reported as acting. And woe be to the Group Leader who accepts an experienced character without conducting such a background check. Can you say insurgent? And if the applying member is a new character, then no work history would be available and all they would be able to do is communicate their alignment goals, just like the players would say to each other in their chat window. Then keep an eye on whether the character is keeping up with them or not.

Project_Hero wrote:

It makes far more sense from an RP perspective to have them hidden. Then if other team members notice something is off about the new hero on the team they can act on it rather than have the team lead go "hold on let me check this list I have that knows if you've been bad or good."

And again it's hard for a player, a roleplayer, to not act on information. If a team leader looks at their list and sees "Villain" next to a character then no matter how the villain character acts in character they will be treated with mistrust and suspicion.

So again I ask if alignment is a purely RP thing why would anyone else need to know it? Non RPers won't care about others alignments and RPers are better off not knowing other people's alignments so why would it ever need to be shown? Don't want villains getting into your super team? Have a long and extensive interview process. Or if it's really that big of a deal for you ask them OOC. There is no reason for the GAME to tell you someone's alignment.

Although having a power as part of a set that can detect alignments would be alright. Lasso of Truth, mind reading, sensing someone's heart or whatever, that kind of thing. Then that gives an in character reason for how or why you'd know someone's alignment.

I think you have a mental model that does not coincide with mine. I suggest you read my posts again, because your answers look like you are discussing members being able to see each others' alignments, while I'm proposing that Supergroup Leadership see their members' alignments.

And again, I'd like to point out that a named character in Titan City will have a very [b]difficult[/b] time trying to hide his or her relative position on the Honorable, Violent and Lawfulness scales. [i]Cape Chasers[/i] will see to that.

So, Huck, the chain of events would go... Interview potential candidate, invite them to Super Team, -THEN- do a background check? And don't forget then the leader has a complete list that always shows changes as they happen.

Or would any creators of Super Teams just be able to always and forever see everyone's alignment?

Best thing to do if people actually care about someone's alignment as "a named character in Titan City will have a very difficult time trying to hide his or her relative position on the Honorable, Violent and Lawfulness scales. Cape Chasers will see to that." Would be to then as part of the interview process TAKE the new recruit past any of these groups to see how said groups react.

Again there is no need for any player to be able to see how someone sits on the alignment spectrum (partially because it'll be almost constantly in flux). I had suggested earlier in the thread that getting newspaper headlines that are viewable to others, so that you can have a character have heard of another in a way that feels more natural. Having a paper headline that reads "[HERO] kills crime boss!" Can tell a lot more about a character than just being able to see that they're violent. Especially if that paper is the only one like it in their collection.

The citizens of Gotham have an opinion of Batman. Heroes who are encountering Batman for the first time may not. GCPD has an opinion of Batman, which may not be shared by other heroes or even by everyone in the GCPD.

Presumably the citizens and the NPCs of the world know what a character has done and will comment on that. Another player does not.

Again having something like headlines about a character is better and more immersive than just having "violent" stamped on a character's info.

Especially seeing as how they're sliding scales would it say like "violent -5?"

As for an RP reason you, the player, and the character are meeting another character for the first time. This is your first time knowing that this other character exists. How do you magically know how they operate? "I just found out you exist but know you're dishonorable, unlawful, and violent. Despite not knowing you even existed ten seconds ago!"

It makes more sense to judge them based on public reactions to them (if a headline thingy isn't in place) "I just met you, and this is crazy, people are running, violent maybe?"

If for RP your character would know of another character you could... I dunno... Crazy idea... Just throwing it out there... Talk to the other player and discuss what is known about their character?

Redlynne wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:

The citizens of Gotham have an opinion of Batman. Heroes who are encountering Batman for the first time may not.

So how many times do you have to encounter a PC in order to know their alignment?

If you're an NPC, the answer is zero, because all NPCs will know the PC's alignment (except in cases where the plot says they shouldn't, for whatever reason).
If you're a PC ... reverse that ... such that PCs will never know another PC's alignment. So the answer is that no matter how many times a PC encounters another PC, alignment info will never be shown/known.

Still trying to square the circle of "everyone knows BUT YOU" for this kind of thing.

You judge them by the NPCs and such react to them. Regular citizens flee in terror they're probably not a non-violent, law abiding, honest character. You know... You learn about them from their reputation, and how people react to them.

So no, you'll never know that they're honorable -7, lawful -3, and violent 9 but you'll be able to do this thing in your head and come to a conclusion of what sort of character the other is based on how NPCs react.

The biggest question I'd like answered from the "Alignments should be visible" crowd is why. Why do you need to see another's alignment? Why does it matter what they are? What possible use does it serve for you to have that information?

It's sort of like CoH origins. Why did that need to be displayed? What effect did displaying it have on the game? Why would anyone need to know someone else's origin? Isn't the origin usually covered in a character's bio anyway?

But yeah. Why do you feel you need to see someone's alignment?

Project_Hero wrote:

You judge them by the NPCs and such react to them. Regular citizens flee in terror they're probably not a non-violent, law abiding, honest character. You know... [b]You learn about them from their reputation[/b], and how people react to them.

So no, you'll never know that they're honorable -7, lawful -3, and violent 9 but you'll be able to do this thing in your head and come to a conclusion of what sort of character the other is based on how NPCs react.

How did you use the word reputation in your post? I'm pretty sure you didn't use it the way the word is defined for CoT. I'm pretty sure you used it the same way Redlynne used it in [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/138686#comment-138686]post #11[/url]. But that's okay. I understand what you meant to say. And the funny thing is, knowing it is [b]exactly[/b] what we've been discussing. And there you are saying that we [u]should[/u] know it. You just torpedoed your own argument. But lets ignore that for now.

Your argument that when the NPCs know a character's alignment but we don't it is based upon our characters showing up in Titan City on the first day of our existence, not knowing any lore about heroes or villains, and definitely not having grown up in Titan City. Your assumption is far more unreasonable than the assumption that the average player character will have some, if not more, familiarity with the heroes and villains of Titan City than Joe Citizen does. So if Joe Citizen knows how to react to the characters, you should too. Furthermore, that argument is only valid for the first one or two days we are in Titan City. After that, it completely breaks down.

I do agree with you that knowing a character's alignment down to the actual number is not necessary, even for guild leaders. Rather it would make far more sense that there are qualitative assessments of a characters alignment instead.

Such as:[list][*]character [i]Colt 45 Vigilante[/i] is Extremely Violent and Unlawful. (note that no descriptor of honor means they are near neutral on that axis)
[*]Character [i]Empath Angel[/i] is Non-violent, Lawful and Honorable
[*]Character [i]Koi the Ronin[/i] is Violent and Extremely Honorable.[/list]

And guild leaders would get the red flag in their guild roster saying that so-and-so character has exceeded the guild's established alignment parameters.

Project_Hero wrote:

The biggest question I'd like answered from the "Alignments should be visible" crowd is why. Why do you need to see another's alignment? Why does it matter what they are? What possible use does it serve for you to have that information?

It's sort of like CoH origins. Why did that need to be displayed? What effect did displaying it have on the game? Why would anyone need to know someone else's origin? Isn't the origin usually covered in a character's bio anyway?

But yeah. Why do you feel you need to see someone's alignment?

First: Because if everyone else can see it, why can't I? Proper immersion should dictate that I have as much world knowledge as Joe Citizen.

Second: Do I really want to join a party with someone who is going to take the most dishonorable dialogue choices and actions? Maybe I should talk to that player first so we can establish some understanding before we run the mission.

Third: [url=https://cityoftitans.com/comment/138651#comment-138651]Like I've stated before[/url], I think Guild Leadership should absolutely know what their members alignments are. If they choose to ignore this information, that is their prerogative. But if a guild wants to establish itself as more or less honorable, then the guild leadership should be able to communicate that with their members and then see how their members have been behaving. This way they can know when one of the members has strayed from the path and take actions as they deem necessary. Most likely it would just be a note or counseling. But leave it up to the players to determine what to do. Guilds are player-created constructs after all, so as much free agency should be given by the game to allow the guild leadership to govern as they want.

Remember, this is not the real world where we live 24/7. We will be in this world in snippets of a few hours here or there. We may be completely asynchronous with a number of people in our guilds because of time zones and work schedules. So any argument you make that we the players should know other players' characters [i]"reputations"[/i] merely by playing with them is absolutely absurd. No. We have to simulate the character knowledge that would naturally accrue as if we had been living in Titan City along with all the other characters. The easiest and best way to simulate this knowledge is to somehow inform us of each others' alignments.

Project_Hero wrote:

First. Others can't see it. The NPCs are reacting to the characters previous actions. Actions which you know nothing of. But you can learn what kind of character they are by how the NPCs treat them.

NPCs have [b]perfect information[/b].
PCs have [b]NO information[/b].

Please explain how this setup/framing doesn't implicitly demand the PC be either oblivious or stupid (in perpetuity even!).

Project_Hero wrote:

Second. Their choices don't effect your alignment. So unless you're RPing when running a mission teamed then this is a non issue. If you are running a mission while RPing with randos then this is the risk you take. Or you could, you know, ASK THE TEAM YOUR ON ABOUT WHAT KIND OF CHARACTER THEY PLAY.

Because in the history of the internet (let alone humanity), no one has ever lied about anything before. Uh huh. Yeah. Um ... right.

Or the game could tell PCs the same information it "tells" every NPC right there in the UI ...

Project_Hero wrote:

Third. Available information is hard to ignore.

/em falls over laughing

This has about as much validity to it as "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" ... and for much the same reason.

Project_Hero wrote:

The problem with knowing someone's alignment is you have no context for it. They're violent, how do you know this? What have you heard? Answer, you don't, and nothing. But you just know somehow!

Reverse question. The NPCs [b]ALL KNOW[/b] this information. How do they know this? What have they heard? Why do they just "know" somehow, when no PCs do?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Project_Hero wrote:

How many heroes and villains are going to be running around City of Titans at any given moment? Hundreds? Thousands? And yet your character seems to know ALL OF THEIR ALIGNMENTS? You've heard of the actions of ALL OF THEM!? Even if your character was watching the news and reading the paper 24/7 they probably wouldn't hear about half of them, especially as more keep showing up or disappearing on a daily basis!

There's a difference between "knowing" with absolute specificity absolutely nothing and having learned anything at all.

So, let's play your game, knowing that your premise is biased.

Let's say, for the sake of argument and illustration purposes ... that City of Titans (the game) will "remember" every single PC that your PC has ever teamed up with. There'll be a registry of some kind somewhere recording the Character ID number of each and every single PC you've ever teamed with. Yes, I can hear the database maintainers weeping hot tears already, but hear me out, there's a point to this. So, assuming the game remembers every PC that you've ever [b]completed a mission[/b] with (so complete a mission, add them to the list for your PC) there will also be a counter for how many missions you've completed with that particular PC.

So ... Character ID number and quantity of missions completed in a team ... recorded for every PC you ever team up with. Following me so far?

Until you complete a mission with another PC, the alignment info available for them is ... NONE. Why? Because you haven't teamed up with them before. Reason? Because you don't have first hand experience with them. Any secondhand or thirdhand info you could get might have been faked or otherwise untrue. Basically, a game mechanical enforcement of "non-judgement" until your PC can witness another PC "in action" for yourself.

So, the first time you meet a "new" PC that you've never teamed with before, you have no info about their alignment(s). First time you meet ... blank slate. We all clear on the concept? We good?

Okay ... so what happens AFTER the first mission completed together? Or the second? Or the third? Or ten? Twenty? Insert appropriate number here?

Well, according to the system that has been described by Tannim222 and Project_Hero, game mechanically speaking your PC remains clueless forever ... even after teaming up with someone. No matter how many times you team up with another PC, you'll NEVER learn anything about that PC game mechanically speaking through the game engine itself, because the game will NEVER tell you anything about another PC's alignments ... even though almost every NPC in the game will "know" this information and behave accordingly.

The other end of the spectrum is that after completing a single mission with another PC, you get to see their alignment info "without filters" in perfect specificity. You see them in "action" once and that tells you EVERYTHING you'll ever need to know about them, because you've "met" them and you "worked" with them to complete a mission together. All it takes is ONE mission complete. After that, your PC "keeps tabs" on them so as to "follow" the exploits of other PCs you've teamed with, meaning you'll get info updating you to alignment changes in order to keep your knowledge about other PCs you've teamed with in the past "current" and up to date (just like every NPC in the game).

Between these two options on opposite ends of the spectrum is the possibility that it will take [i]more than one[/i] mission complete to learn another PC's alignment info with perfect specificity (implying an ongoing "working" relationship with them) in which prior to meeting that threshold there is a Margin Of Error concerning another PC's alignment, such that you can figure out a "range" of possibilities. The range would start at being "wide" with a large margin for error, but after completing more missions together the margin of error will shrink after each mission completed together, such that you can "learn" the alignment of another PC with perfect accuracy [i]after a while[/i] but not immediately upon meeting them the first time. Needless to say, this option would be the most complex to implement, but at the same time also the most interesting to have in the game, since the alternatives are basically [b]All Or Nothing[/b] with no "work" required on the part of the Player(s) involved.

The flip side to this argument is ... how did anyone know who was a Hero, Vigilante, Villain or Rogue in City of Heroes? Answer, because the info was THERE ... all the time ... in the UI.

We aren't going to be using a Hero/Vigilante/Villain/Rogue system in City of Titans. We're going to be using Alignment axes of Law/Lawless, Honor/Dishonest, Peace/Violence ... and you're saying those ought to be kept secret, despite the fact that everyone BUT the PCs will have access to that information.

As far as I'm concerned, keeping the Alignment information permanently unknowable by other PCs simply isn't tenable, because it's demonstrably implausible. You'll wind up with a system that invites disrespect and dishonesty, because all you have to do is LIE and then never come clean about it (gee, good thing that never happens in any game world!).

Right, the alignment issue comes down to 'need to know' and PCs don't have that, in regards to other PCs. The Five Dragons and allies may have been issued a 'memo' saying that 'Hero X' is a menace and must be destroyed, but why would a PC have access to that data?

Besides, if PCs did have alignment information about each other, what possible use would it be? I can only imagine it dividing the player-base.

Be Well!
Fireheart

First, many are assuming a whole bunch and no one has been absolutely correct and some have been wildly incorrect of their assumptions.

Some of the game play interactions between pcs and npcs which are being atteibuted to the alignment axis has nothing or very little to do with alignment and has almost everyhing to do with reputation.

Yes, PCs are “clueless” with regards to alignments of other players. Mostly it has zero impact on other players. It may change which contacts a player has, the dialogue options, etc.. based on past decisions made in stories.

What player A decided to do has no impact on what player b may decide to do. Even if in the same mission, if player A takes the violent choice at oppurtune moments, player b won’t automatically lose their peaceful rating, but may also abstain from being affected.

Then when player b does in their own version of the story remains unaffected by player a’s previous choices.

There is no vslue in players seeing, knowing, or tracking another player’s alignment outside of role playing purposes. And even then, it is up to how each individual player decides to role play their character. Alignment provides a frame of reference for the player playing the character at that point.

Now as to the concerns of people not wanting their own personal immersion affected by making a “hero-themed” super team and no wanting a “villain”, we have ways to address those issues.

But not wanting violent players in your peaceful super team? Is taking the alignment axis too far. Your perception of another character does not have to be affected by their alignment choices.

If I see white skull wearing mahcine gun toting chracter I can assume he is violent.

To the player, maybe they use the skull tonjnduce fear a d as a target for the bad guys to aim for, and his machine gun shoots “sleeper rounds” like MAoS tv show.

You can make up a narrative for yourself of hoe you percieve your character and how that character percieves other characters. Everyone is then free to determine their own level of immersion free from infringing upon the immersion of others.

What you don't know, can't be held against you.

If ignorance is bliss, I want EVERYONE to be happy!

Tannim222 wrote:

Yes, PCs are “clueless” with regards to alignments of other players.

And will remain so, indefinitely. Why? Well, just because ... that's why.

Tannim222 wrote:

Mostly it has zero impact on other players.

Hero, Vigilante, Villain and Rogue basically had "zero impact on other Players" too. In a meaningful sense, those alignments in City of Heroes merely determined where you could "go" in the game (only Vigilantes and Rogues had access to all of the zones in the game) and what flavor of Alignment/Morality missions you got to play. Other than that ... non-relevant ... particularly in co-op zones like the Rikti War Zone and Praetoria. So, for the most part, not really relevant to most group content, since it didn't determine anything ... except maybe access to some repeatable mission Contacts keyed to the four alignments in City of Heroes.

And yet it was still there, in the UI, available at any time you wanted to see it, even if hardly anyone noticed or cared.

Arguments for transparency have been made. All of them have been categorically refused. We all lose.

[img]http://reductress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/man-bag-over-head.jpg[/img]

Red. The only reason someone's faction was visible because it was at a time when EVERY MMO was divided into factions thanks to the popularity of WoW. And that was what WoW did. As above so below. And as you said people hardly cared or noticed, so why have them at all?

Crimsonomen. I pretty much never write bios for my characters. Just RP notes. Things people might notice at a glance or with special senses. But that's just me. I felt that someone's backstory and such should only be revealed through RPing.

Having a fully secret alignment would be difficult. Unless your character does covert missions (which I could see as a future path), and ensures that no word ever gets out about them ever (unlikely, but you know, comic books).

What sways you in your third example that doesn't in the first? If you check his profile and find that their violent is maxed out you get the same result as the first. What could make you think their violent score wouldn't be legit? Do you expect the game to lie to people?

Chances are Bios will be viewable by anyone, otherwise what's the point of even writing one? Your own benefit?

Or, you know. When you do a mission you get the option of:

1. Take Prisoner
2. Kill

And player A selects option 1 and they see the cutscene for that and get the appropriate rewards.

Player B selects option 2 and they get the appropriate cutscene and reward.

Both happen, neither changes the other. No one has to run it again.

Or

Player A selects option 1 and the cutscene plays out for everyone, but everyone is rewarded as they chose.

Kind of like how SWTOR handles it. You choose light or dark side option, all players get a roll. Depending on who wins depends on how the scene plays out but everyone gets rewarded light or dark side points depending on how they chose.

With this you have no need to know someone else's alignment.

Also if you can re-play previous missions then you can go see the scene you missed.

Tannim222 wrote:

Knowing what a player’s current alignment is not a certain indicator that it is the direction that player will continue to go on. They may be a non-violent pacifist now, but they could be working their way toward violence.

To quote Wall Street ... [b]Past performance is not a predictor of future results.[/b]

But we're not using the alignment axes values to PREDICT THE FUTURE.
We want them to tell us about a PC's PAST DECISIONS/ACTIONS.

Even if a PC is "turning over a new leaf" so to speak, it would be nice to know where they're coming "from" as it were. Look, Tannim, we're not asking for the alignment info to be "permanent" ... we're just asking for it to reflect CURRENT status, with the implicit understanding that alignments can "move" and CHANGE over time. But if we're looking at what someone's alignment settings are "right now" we want to know about the present as a result of the past ... not about some uncertain future growing out of the present. Alignments are history, not foreshadowing.

Tannim222 wrote:

There is no guarantee. Even if you could see the alignment, and you asked the player their intention, they could, in the moment of a decision, make another choice because they got curious about an option presented to them. And because the system is non-binary, it may not affect them.

Not germane to the discussion. We have the implicit assumption of FREE WILL, after all, at work with PCs controlled by Players. Alignments are not "determinative" in that respect. Past does not dictate future. At best it "informs" the present and may indicate tendencies, but it doesn't arbitrarily "decide" the choices that Players will make BEFORE they've made them. But underpinning all of that is the belief that people (meaning both PCs and Players) can be "contrary" on occasion and go against type. Alignments are not a one-way ratchet and they can "move" given enough effort (on the part of the Player). A Player looking at another PC's alignments will allow them to GUESS how another PC might behave/react when presented with different choices, but they're still choices.

Remember, alignments represent an accumulation of HISTORY, but they are by no means DESTINY.

Tannim222 wrote:

You can also be teamed with a violent character who is choosing peaceful actions to reform their character from their violent ways.

All that means is that their choices aren't predetermined/locked off based on their alignment settings. So long as Players understand that dynamic, that alignments are history rather than destiny, this becomes a Non-Problem.

Tannim222 wrote:

There is no real game play issue at hand that requires players knowing someone else’s alignments that can have lasting social dynamics, nor character-character-gsme mechanics.

Writing a Bio page for your character to be read by others in game also fits that description.
Bio pages have no real game play impact.
Other Players are not required to read your PCs Bio page.
Bio pages have no relevance to character-character-game mechanics whatsoever.

So by your logic and reasoning, Bio pages should be completely private and not viewable by other Players. And yet, we're all assuming that Bio pages will not only be included but "publicly" viewable "on demand" when asked for.

At this point, the best I could possibly hope for is that a PC's current alignments would be viewable as a standard component part of every PC's Bio page (including when the Bio page is left blank). That way, when you look at a PC's Bio page (for the literal purpose of Knowing More about that specific PC) you'd be able to access the reputation info that the alignment axes represent in game as a part of that Bio page (if it helps, think about "googling" someone). That way, it's not something that is on permanent display ... so you aren't wearing your alignments on your sleeve (so to speak) ... but they are "accessible" to anyone who bothers to look at your PC's Bio page. Your Bio page is PUBLIC information about your PC, and your alignments represents what the PUBLIC "knows" about your character's history, since your alignments are your reputation (your "street cred" if you will) and what a PC is known for having DONE.

Or to put it another way ... what goes around comes around ... if you're familiar with the expression. If your alignments are set to the extremes, people are going to think you're an extremist, because you've been reasonably consistent about that in order to EARN the reputation/alignments you've got. Yeah, yeah ... you might be a hero/villain, but what KIND of a hero/villain are you? When push comes to shove, which I'd assume would be the conditions under which a shift in alignments would be possible/expected ... which "way" does a PC [b][i]tend to[/i][/b] jump? I'm thinking that information ought to be available on the Bio page, bare minimum.

Your turn.

Red it is clear you aren’t interested in conversation.

I will only say this: there is nothing mechanically or socially that knowing a character’s past decisions has any bearing on what another player may be doing with that character now.

Furthermore, character wise, there is nothing about knowing alignments that affects game play.

Player wise, this all amounts to is “I want to know because I want to know in order to make a snap judgement”. Either so players can use this as personal justification to what? - decide to group with them or decide to allow them into a super team. When nothing about those alignment decisions affects anything about grouping for super team formation mechanicallly in the game.

This, for me, are all old arguments we had years ago when designing this system.

A biography field is electable by each player to use or not. And even how it is used is up to the player it may not be to provide a background on the character.

If a player chooses to express their alignment standing in the bio field either literally or descriptively, it is an individual decision.

However, should game play systems or the way players play end up being adversely affected by hidden alignments, we will indeed revisit. But for now, this is the direction taken.

Redlynne wrote:

Converse question then ... why even have alignments at all if you're just going to hide them from everyone?

It is for you the player of your character to determine how your story unfolds.

TitansCity wrote:

Well... Maybe i could have an answer now the people-who-could-be-french-because-they-know-how-to-grumble (^-^) had they answers :p
We know our actions could influence our alignement. Do our answers in the dialogues during the path will change our alignement as well ? I mean, what are the elements which will influe on the alignements ?

At key moments in missions you will be presented with choices. Those choices may be dialogue driven, but they will more then likely to be actions to choose from.

Scott Jackson wrote:

I am reasonably content with the current plan.

While I can see some advantages to me as a player being able to view other PCs' alignment info (whether instantly precise, or the more realistic initially-hazy-but-made-more-precise-through-repeated-teaming version), I don't see this feature as critical to my ability to team with others, participate in "guild" activities, and have fun in general. When teaming, I plan to accept that random player actions can and will occur, and that if I feel they are too disruptive I can quit the team/mission (same as in CoH). So long as these actions are not hugely negative on my PC, I will probably never leave a team mid-mission. The design of the key moments & choices hasn't been fully revealed, so on the basis of what has been discussed I am trusting that Tannim & company have designed solid protections against players griefing others with alignment choices mid-mission.

I understand that any alignment data would be a historical guide at best and also slow to shift, so not only could the PC (at the player's direction) instantly behave counter to their current alignment, but that PC could be in the midst of a slow shift toward a different alignment that would not be visible...unless the data also displayed a trend or if I ask/see it mentioned in the PC's bio page. These factors make the alignment data merely interesting rather than highly informative to me, whether for roleplay purposes or to make decisions about how to interact with another player. If I know the player well, the alignment info is redundant because I'd be using my past knowledge of the player and their character far more than the alignment data (or simply asking them in the case of a new character). If I don't know them well, then I would prefer to imagine it as my character also not knowing them for some reason...so I'll just team or chat with them and see where things go. If the player has written a character bio or chats about their PC's motives, I would rather use that as how they want to be initially perceived, and not run a sort of internet search / background check in the form of alignment data.

The alignment data also doesn't quite equate to public information to me, since it can likely be shifted by actions in solo missions that no one should know.:
Were there no survivors to tell who wiped them out?
Maybe the person I had been instructed to eliminate, I instead quietly helped go into hiding...
Perhaps the choice was presented when no one was present (keep the unmarked bills / make anonymous donation to [charity])?
Thus, it's the game's record of my character's choices, both secret and public, that only I (as the player) and my character (as the avatar) should fully know.

Regardless of the "right" answer, the current hide-alignments approach seems very low risk for beta & launch. Compared to the magnitude of other development efforts, a change to show basic alignment data next to a PC's bio is minor...if it does turn out to be necessary or simply a net benefit after all.

I agree with just about everything you say except for one significant detail.

In my opinion, it is more appropriate from a lore and RP perspective to have people's alignments visible because both characters who leave bloody trails in their wake and characters who subdue all their opponents for the police to pick up would both be in the newsfeeds and scuttlebutt for us all to know. In my opinion it is also more beneficial from a game design perspective to allow the players one more tool to use to help them play the game the way they like and establish self-organizing social networks. So the default setting should be visible, with the burden of proof resting on those who want to hide it, instead of how it is now with it hidden and the burden of proof upon those who think it should be visible.

But a significant detail in a relatively minor gameplay feature means that it is all still relatively minor. I think just because we are arguing emphatically over the number of angels on the head of this pin, it doesn't mean that we don't also know that is all we are discussing.

All this could change if we do things like how SWTOR does it, in that every character is responsible for his or her own alignment choices regardless of the decisions the team makes. But as of this writing, COT will not be doing it the SWTOR way.

Project_Hero wrote:

Newsfeeds wouldn't be able to keep people up to date with all the heroes. There's going to be hundreds or thousands of players. You'd have to do something really high profile to get a mention.

A violent character who leaves a bloody trail might get mentioned, but maybe not by name. Or possibly their work might get credited to a higher profile character. "More dead found could this be the work of [high profile character]?" Or the news could assume that it's done by a henchman of a higher profile character or a copycat of that character.

Likewise for someone who turns them over to the police. Especially if they do like some heroes and leave them for the cops anonymously.

Most heroes don't try to make a name for themselves and don't often talk to the press. So their deeds would be surrounded by rumor rather than hard facts. Some Villains would also rather keep a low profile, as it's best to operate when people don't know you exist. This is especially true for the masked criminal, who has powers but just wants to rob banks or get cash. The higher their profile the more likely some big named hero will show up to stop them.

Granted there are exceptions to this such as Booster Gold and villains that go "The world shall know the name of [name] and tremble!!!!!" But that is what you're bio is for. "You may have heard of Booster Gold as he talks to the press often about his 'impressive' deeds, and has appeared in commercials for companies that sponsor him."

Also you can use the lack of an alignment to give an air of mystery. Allowing people to know a bit of how they operate. Making a Daredevil like character and having a bit in their bio like "Also known as the devil of hell's kitchen, due to their costume and how they operate." That tells people way more than just slapping a label on the character. Granted you can do this with an alignment but if you're not playing 100% in character at all times for missions then it might not line up. It definitely won't if you just made the character.

All those mights and maybes and self-rationalizations could actually add up to a valid argument, if all the NPCs in the world don't already react to your character's alignment. But as it is, that entire argument is invalid and moot. If Joe Citizen of Titan City reacts to your character's alignment, then other PCs should be aware of it as well.

Remember, our story does not make us one of thousands. Our stories make us special. I sincerely hope they don't make us "[url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne]the chosen one[/url]" like other MMORPG have done, but I am certain we won't be one of a cast of thousands either; regardless of how many player accounts exist.

Tannim222 wrote:

At key moments in missions you will be presented with choices. Those choices may be dialogue driven, but they will more then likely to be actions to choose from.

And those actions will influe on our alignments :) Thank you Tannim222

So what, you want the list of all the missions and alignment choices another character has done so you can have context for their alignment?

Cause just having their alignment tells you pretty much nothing about their character. And how they play their character doesn't matter to you another player.

The NPCs "know" as to have your choices have an effect in the game world. Players knowing doesn't have any effect on that. You want your character to be known for a thing? Put it in your bio, or set a title that's fitting.

Another character has an alignment that says their violent. In what way? What was the context for this? Are they continuing that path or changing their ways? Maybe they're only violent to a certain enemy group?

Do you really want people to have to write in their bios all the justifications they have for their characters alignment?

((My alignment says I'm violent but it was only for a little while against a specific group and now I'm working to change it))

So much better than just having "my character hates X group" in their bio somewhere.

Again a player's alignment without any context for it doesn't mean squat. YOU don't have the context the NPCs do. Unless you want a whole list of the missions they've done and the choices they've made along with their alignment then you have no context for it. There is a ton of varience inside of alignment brackets, way too much that a simple word or number can dictate.

For a D&D example. Lawful Evil. This can be someone with a code of conduct that tends to do bad things, this could be someone out for only themselves who works within the laws, this could be a devil, this could be someone who finds loopholes in the law to exploit it for their own gain, etc etc.

Just having Lawful Evil on their character sheet tells you nothing about them except that they tend to be out for themselves and follow some kind of laws. But such a person could be anything even a Paladin. Their own ends could be revenge or vengeance. They could be looking to destroy the greatest evil in the land and will let nothing get in their way. You don't know and you won't until you interact with them. Batman's violent and unlawful alignment are much different than Punisher's yet they'd both be counted among the unlawful and violent.

Alignments don't mean anything to a player without context.

Redlynne wrote:

/em sigh

Now you're just being obtuse, Project_Hero. I'm trying to decide if you're doing it deliberately or not.

Are you being obtuse?

I just don't understand why you feel this information is something that you need to know.

Would you going to automatically attack or run from someone with a certain alignment?

Their alignment doesn't have any effect on yours so teaming with them doesn't matter.

In order to have the same info the NPCs do you'd need to know a character's entire history, as I'm sure events from a character's past will come up in NPC dialogue.

It has no mechanical benefit to know another's alignment.

It has no RP benefit because you have no context.

Why do you need to know another's alignment? And why if it's for RP can't you just ask the other OOC what their character is known for?

CoH had no alignments other than the factions to which you yourself admitted that they didn't matter. So why then does someone's alignment?

Project_Hero wrote:

I just don't understand why you feel this information is something that you need to know.

Everyone who is an NPC "needs" to know it. Always.
PCs "need" to NOT know it. Forever.

The fact that this does not cause you any cognitive dissonance is surprising. That you keep refusing to understand this, even after having your nose rubbed in it repeatedly, is disappointing.

Project_Hero wrote:

Would you going to automatically attack or run from someone with a certain alignment?

PvP question. Not germane to the discussion.

Project_Hero wrote:

Their alignment doesn't have any effect on yours so teaming with them doesn't matter.

That's. Not. The. Point.
That alignment has no effect on being able to team up with another Player is completely beside the point.

Project_Hero wrote:

In order to have the same info the NPCs do you'd need to know a character's entire history, as I'm sure events from a character's past will come up in NPC dialogue.

No.
You'd just need to be able to access the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbbYY-pAmlY]PC's Bio page[/url] [i]if you wanted to know that information[/i]. If you don't care, then simply don't go to the effort of looking at people's Bio pages for their PCs.

Project_Hero wrote:

It has no mechanical benefit to know another's alignment.

There is no game mechanical benefit to being able to see the unique costumes of other PCs either.

And yet we still expect to be able to.

Imagine a world where only NPCs could see your PCs costume, but other PCs were permanently forbidden to see your costume and instead all PCs looked like unadorned costume test dummies.
I've got a costume.
[b][i]*I*[/i][/b] can see it.
NPCs can see it.
But no other PCs can see it, because they don't "need" to.

Now realize that such a scenario is directly analogous to what you've been advocating for this whole time.

Project_Hero wrote:

It has no RP benefit because you have no context.

Why do you need to know another's alignment? And why if it's for RP can't you just ask the other OOC what their character is known for?

I have never once invoked RP as the motivation for wanting to allow NPCs [b]AND[/b] PCs to be able to see the alignments of PCs.

My rationale for wanting PCs to be able to see other PCs alignments (at all) is rooted in intellectual honesty and consistency of both game and world(!) design. If the NPCs are allowed to "know" this information (and react based on that knowledge), then there ought to be a way for the PCs to "know" this information as well. I don't mind if Players need to "jump through hoops" in order to access the information (see argument for putting the alignment info into the Bio page UI) so that it's there [b][i]*IF*[/i][/b] you want to know it. But I DO mind if the information is kept hidden because "you're a Player and you don't need to know it so therefore you aren't getting it no matter what, nyah nyah!"

Having the info available, but requiring lookup (on a Bio page) puts the onus on us, the Players, to go find the info if we care to know (spoiler alert, most people won't care to know, but some will).
Keeping the info permanently unavailable is just developers being patronizing towards their Players. Play the game OUR way ... not YOUR way.

Project_Hero wrote:

CoH had no alignments other than the factions to which you yourself admitted that they didn't matter. So why then does someone's alignment?

Which were PERMANENTLY VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES. Heck, even Origin information was visible at all times, even though there was no real "meaningful" use for that information either.

It basically comes down to Transparency versus Concealment. The fact that you can't even concede that point is what convinces me that you're being deliberately obtuse in a desperate attempt to fool yourself into thinking that there just isn't a problem here.

Redlynne wrote:

Project_Hero wrote:

I just don't understand why you feel this information is something that you need to know.

Everyone who is an NPC "needs" to know it. Always.
PCs "need" to NOT know it. Forever.

The fact that this does not cause you any cognitive dissonance is surprising. That you keep refusing to understand this, even after having your nose rubbed in it repeatedly, is disappointing.

Project_Hero wrote:

Would you going to automatically attack or run from someone with a certain alignment?

PvP question. Not germane to the discussion.

Project_Hero wrote:

Their alignment doesn't have any effect on yours so teaming with them doesn't matter.

That's. Not. The. Point.
That alignment has no effect on being able to team up with another Player is completely beside the point.

Project_Hero wrote:

In order to have the same info the NPCs do you'd need to know a character's entire history, as I'm sure events from a character's past will come up in NPC dialogue.

No.
You'd just need to be able to access the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbbYY-pAmlY]PC's Bio page[/url] [i]if you wanted to know that information[/i]. If you don't care, then simply don't go to the effort of looking at people's Bio pages for their PCs.

Project_Hero wrote:

It has no mechanical benefit to know another's alignment.

There is no game mechanical benefit to being able to see the unique costumes of other PCs either.

And yet we still expect to be able to.

Imagine a world where only NPCs could see your PCs costume, but other PCs were permanently forbidden to see your costume and instead all PCs looked like unadorned costume test dummies.
I've got a costume.
[b][i]*I*[/i][/b] can see it.
NPCs can see it.
But no other PCs can see it, because they don't "need" to.

Now realize that such a scenario is directly analogous to what you've been advocating for this whole time.

Project_Hero wrote:

It has no RP benefit because you have no context.

Why do you need to know another's alignment? And why if it's for RP can't you just ask the other OOC what their character is known for?

I have never once invoked RP as the motivation for wanting to allow NPCs [b]AND[/b] PCs to be able to see the alignments of PCs.

My rationale for wanting PCs to be able to see other PCs alignments (at all) is rooted in intellectual honesty and consistency of both game and world(!) design. If the NPCs are allowed to "know" this information (and react based on that knowledge), then there ought to be a way for the PCs to "know" this information as well. I don't mind if Players need to "jump through hoops" in order to access the information (see argument for putting the alignment info into the Bio page UI) so that it's there [b][i]*IF*[/i][/b] you want to know it. But I DO mind if the information is kept hidden because "you're a Player and you don't need to know it so therefore you aren't getting it no matter what, nyah nyah!"

Having the info available, but requiring lookup (on a Bio page) puts the onus on us, the Players, to go find the info if we care to know (spoiler alert, most people won't care to know, but some will).
Keeping the info permanently unavailable is just developers being patronizing towards their Players. Play the game OUR way ... not YOUR way.

Project_Hero wrote:

CoH had no alignments other than the factions to which you yourself admitted that they didn't matter. So why then does someone's alignment?

Which were PERMANENTLY VISIBLE AT ALL TIMES. Heck, even Origin information was visible at all times, even though there was no real "meaningful" use for that information either.

It basically comes down to Transparency versus Concealment. The fact that you can't even concede that point is what convinces me that you're being deliberately obtuse in a desperate attempt to fool yourself into thinking that there just isn't a problem here.

So. Not for RP reasons and not for mechanical reasons. So you just want to see it because it's a thing in the game? Do you need to see all the other behind the scenes mechanics too? Do you need to be able to look at an NPC and see all the parts they use for their costumes and the colors? What sliders they have? Which powers they have? All of their powers' numbers?

If seeing it grants you nothing it's worthless information. If all seeing an alignment will do is allow players another way to divide the community then showing alignment has 0 benefits and a negative. Why put something in the game that has nothing but a negative impact.

The information in CoH was permanently visible at all times and completely worthless. Origins were meaningless and could have been removed altogether without many problems. The factions only mattered for PvP, and then by the end I don't think even then.

I don't get why you feel the need for transparency of information that has no use to you. Essentially your reasoning is "because it's there" do you want access to the code of the game also? That's info NPCs "know" and you don't.

I don't need to see someone else's alignment because being able to see it gives me nothing. It'd be a useless waste of space. Informational clutter. Like when games tell you a number for a stat that is never effected by anything. Why do I need to know that say, my walk speed is 5 when it can't be increased or reduced? It's useless information. I can see my own alignment because it matters to me as the player. How someone else plays doesn't matter. Their alignment doesn't matter to you.

I don't need transparency for useless information. I'd rather not have my UI cluttered up with meaningless information. Anything purposeless in videogames I always find myself asking why is it even there. If a character has an auto attack that always happens when you have something targeted why is it on my bar? Why do I have a "basic attack" button if it always auto activates? It's useless clutter, and something that I'll always just remove from my action bar.

Useless information is useless. And I don't need it. Of it was transparency for an actual mechanical system that actually mattered like say, agro, then yeah I, as a player, would like to see it. But this? You might as well ask to be able to see how many steps another player has taken.