I wasn't sure what to title this one.
My question is about how current missions will interact with a map, or on-screen mini-map. For example, in WoW I believe for every mission there is a marker and you run to it, etc. In Skyrim, same thing. Will we be led straight to each mission/tip/quest, whatever, or will we need to use clues like road names, landmarks, etc? I don't know if this has been discussed or not, I apologize if it has been. I just think it would be cool to have to actually pay a little more attention to the game and have to 'search' for a given destination without knowing exactly where it is because there isn't a glowing yellow exclamation point on my mini map. I'm sure there is a way to where you wouldn't spend an hour running all over Titan City but you still had to do some detective work.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
I have a terrible sense of direction especially on video games, so not having points on the map/minimap would annoy the heck out of me. Maybe have it be an optional thing at least.
After reading your post I thought of something that is pretty interesting would be if you got a clue that lead you to a place, then you had to search that place for another clue, which would then lead you to a mission. A sort of trail of breadcrumbs kind of thing.
Though that would probably work best with a form of detective vision that helps narrow it down. As searching around a small area for ages for a thing isn't very fun.
Though at that point does it just become busy work?
Edit: Maybe it'd be neat for a post launch update to allow heroes and such to search rooms for clues and try to piece together mysteries. Probably allowing it to work backwards for badguys. Using the things in the room to do a thing. I dunno.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Paths use a string of contacts which provide information snd locations which will give you a marker.
We have discussed Tips which result in one time content called Plots having an optional map marker but could br written where the player could choose to search. But it woud be more like “finding the glowie” in a larger area of the city map such as a Tip about crooks using the slimy warer way to make their escape.
Searxhing the area may show that a manhole cover is lit up indicating it as an entrance to their Plot.
Now this may chsnge or may not always be possible. The way Tips are written is up to Comp.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I like the sound of this.
What about glowies in instanced content? Will CoT do something like the old game where only the very last one shows up on the map (and hopefully add an option to turn this off if a player really wants to search)?
Spurn all ye kindle.
To be honest ... I've come to dislike the "perfect information" that City of Heroes provided us to locate mission doors. Yes, it was helpful ... but it was also TOO helpful ... if that makes any sense. Everything turned into "run/jump/fly/teleport in a straight line to the next mission door" in a way that minimized the importance of [i]everything else in the world[/i]. Putting a marker on the map or in your field of view (with a continuously updated distance measurement) was just giving the Player [b]too much information[/b] about where to go. That's because the game was giving you your exact destination AT ALL TIMES rather than giving you a "pointer" that said "go thataway" instead.
Take a look at this Star Trek Online youtube video of gameplay in which you aren't "told" where the objects of interest are found (either in space, or on the ground), but in which you can SCAN for the location of the nearest item of interest On Demand so as to get a vector from your current location to that (nearest) item of interest. It's the difference between being told GO HERE, which gives away the destination, and being told GO THATAWAY, which gives you the direction to go but not the destination (until you get close enough to see the destination).
[youtube]OaA5X-ecUbY[/youtube]
That "stream of light" when scanning is perhaps one of the few features that I really wish we had in City of Heroes rather than just being handed "the answer" all the time to Where Do I Go Next? It turns the task of Seek To Find into its own exploratory mini-game. It's also something that is far more immersive in its execution than putting a triangle marker and a range counter into your camera view telling you where to get to. The scanning beam execution is also far superior at handling directional info in an easy way to follow intuitively in a 3D environment ... particularly in BIG EMPTY 3D environments like STO features in its space maps where the vast majority of points of interest are going to be beyond draw distance for objects (meaning you can't see them until you get closer). Inside such a game environment, you need to have a system of cues/clues that can direct the Player to GO THERE so they don't get lost in the oversized sandbox full of nothing. The Scan On Demand system makes all of that possible [i]and fun[/i] to play in. Exploration of the map honestly does involve an element of EXPLORING where the Player doesn't have all the answers right from the beginning.
I would love it if City of Titans did something similar for a system of cues to Players concerning any sort of Go Here tasking for glowies (including mission doors), rather than putting a marker and a continuously updated range finder measurement into your field of view like City of Heroes did. That's because the STO Scanning method turns the finding of "stuff" into more of a scavenger hunt activity, rather than reducing everything down to a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem]Traveling Salesman Problem[/url] of figuring out the shortest route from Here to There because you [i]already know where you want to get to[/i]. The STO Scanning system turns that around, such that you don't know where the destination IS ... but you can (easily) find out which way to go in order to get there.
The "scanning" method itself could involve a number of different animations and FX (aesthetic decoupling!) that could range from a technological "tricorder-ish" device to casting a magical "spell" to some sort of psionic/precognitive "intuition" to what amounts to a sort of casting of the bones/cards to "divine" information ... and so on. What the PC "emotes" isn't all that game mechanically important (but it is important for game immersion and roleplay potential) so long as it results in what amounts to a Pointer indication a direction the PC needs to be moved. Whether that be a beam of light (as is seen in STO gameplay) or a puff of smoke traveling in a direction or a swirl of stars that shoot off in a particular direction ... the actual FX used can be almost anything (aesthetic decoupling!) so long as they provide a VECTOR for the PC to follow that will take them to their destination.
Having such an underlying game mechanical system then opens up additional opportunities and wrinkles above and beyond the "here's the answer, GO HERE" method we saw in City of Heroes.
For one thing, the Vector On Demand from "scanning" could potentially be either interfered with (think jamming) or otherwise unavailable in some locations. That way, if you're inside a mission instance but the intention is to make the PCs actively Search for glowies, rather than reveal the location of the glowies by using Scan On Demand, you can have the Scan either return a false reading (nothing detected when it ought to have detected something) or otherwise "fizzle" in such a way as to yield information that shouldn't be relied upon. So a circumstantial disabling of the Scan On Demand system in order to make the Player "work harder" to try and find what they're looking for. An interesting subset of this particular functionality would be setting things up such that Scan On Demand would get you CLOSE to what you're trying to find, but then "fail" once you get "close enough" such that the Player is obliged to search an area to find what they're looking for (which would usually be a glowie of some kind). That way, the Scan On Demand gets you MOST of the way to your destination, but won't guide you ALL the way there (see above, scavenger hunt). Indeed, this sort of Get Me Close But Not TOO Close behavior could even be set up as a Challenge Mode option in which Scan On Demand only "works" for a PC while the destination is beyond a certain range (which could even be adjusted with a slider in the UI to modify the difficulty of this particular Challenge Mode).
Another possibility for a Challenge Mode using a Scan On Demand functionality would be having a bonus that decreases every time you use Scan On Demand. So for example, the Challenge Mode is that you'll get 2 "free" scans, but scans 3+ will reduce the bonus for every extra scan you make ... until the bonus for having this Challenge Mode on gets reduced to zero. You can have sliders that determine how many "free" scans you'll get (1-8?) and another slider for how many scans after that you'll have before the bonus of the Challenge Mode gets dropped to zero (2-10?). The size of the bonus gets adjusted depending on what settings you've chosen, such that fewer scans made/allowed yield bigger bonuses. Basically, the fewer times you need to "buy a clue" the bigger the reward for the Challenge Mode.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
That definitley won’t work with Paths. And Tips may give clues for a Plot but it will be optional to think for yourself or follow the marker.
Why?
4 year olds
Children with disabilities
Grandpa with a kid.
We account for ease of play for them as well as your over-achieving young to “not so young anymore” gamer.
Also scan on demand won’t be a thing because Super Senses will exist and cannbe used for a variety of functions outside of combat.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Well gang. I tried.
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
/e sarcasm - Yeah, let's send them all to what you have in mind for pvp and let's see how they fare.
Seriously, I don't think the four year old level is the sweet spot for combat, finding locations or the game in general. But it's obviously your call.
If there was a specific "detective" path, or mission arc, or mission type (all optional, of course), then I could see some scanning features used there. For the rest of the game, I'd prefer the CoH-like markers - which still offer a modest challenge in some missions in/near confusing terrain features, since a marker doesn't reveal how to get around obstacles. Our default navigation difficulty is already likely to be higher than games with generally flat terrain (most old MMOs built on lesser tech or around a walking/horse travel model) or a space-based full 3D game with minimal obstacles.
My own preference for any "detective mode" missions would not rely on frequent scanning that only gives a direction, but instead involve one of the following two "homing" designs:
Design A
1. Mission clues direct you to a relatively large region of the map, either by highlighting on the map or by describing the area/volume in text ("near the fire station at 10th and Washington").
2. Once you reach the area/volume, the mission clues update and now either highlight a smaller region on the map (the alley north of the station) or provide a new, more specific text clue ("the north side of the building seems suspicious - people are avoiding the alley").
3. Repeat step 2 as needed, homing in on the objective through clue updates and/or map highlighting that becomes more accurate and precise as the player gets closer.
4. Player enters final mission-defined volume. Glowie glows and plays audio while awaiting the player's mouse-click or interaction keypress...or an NPC shows up to fight or talk.
Design B
1. Player is directed to a large area by the first mission clue, same as in design A.
2. Player moves to the designated region and is alerted that they have reached the correct volume and should now use their scanning magic/tech/senses.
3. Player uses scanner skill (which can be custom-skinned with a visual animation such as handheld laser device, holographic HUD, wide-spectrum goggles, crystal ball, nanomachine swarm, simply looking around...). This shrinks the map-marked area or creates a highlighted trail to follow, as appropriate for the mission.
4. Player reaches end of trail or enters the updated smaller volume. Repeat steps 3 & 4 as befits the mission's complexity, to give a sense of either quickly or very slowly homing in on the target via scanning. Each stage of this homing process can involve different types of more specific clues (for example, the mission begins when police ask you to check park for signs of cult activity [go to park marked on map] -> on arrival you get an anonymous phone call about abandoned vehicle in park [player can then choose to scan or manually search for vehicle] -> once player is near vehicle, mission text updates to say there is an odd smell near vehicle trunk [go to trunk, scan] -> scan reveals trail of green fluid [follow highlighted path into sewers]).
5. Player enters final mission-defined volume. Glowie glows and plays audio (glow type and audio could be related to the visual customization or could be universal as in CoH), an NPC comes out of hiding to talk, or perhaps a cutscene is triggered for a fight.
Once people get accustomed to optional detective missions like this, more complex steps and more vague text clues (and a way to turn off map highlights) could be added if desired to provide a Secret World-like experience for those players who prefer it.
PvP being optional allows them a space to play where they won’t be affected by the more difficult aspectd of combating thinking opponents.
This also isn’t “my call” but ine of the design directives I’ve been given.
Extrapolate the consequences of the ability to find where a mission is, what is going on around your hero to having to use a “scsn feature”’ that degrades with use. And if you happen to fail locaitinf exactlu what you need to continue, you can’t continue until you either wait out the time for scanning recharges to replenish or go through some other convoluted method to recharge scsnning so you can find content to play.
Forget the fact that there will be super senses that have out of combst application.
Forget the fact that our Comp team can design tipd where you can turn markers off and read the Tip for a clue where to go.
And yes, we’ve dsicussed a deterice style mission design where you need to search for clues. Have have systems in mind for that as well. With alternatives for those who want to go about sneaking and searching and those who wan to bust heads to get what they want.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thanks - that sounds good to me; will see how it develops as we get to beta testing (or post launch, if the detective stuff only appears in higher levels / new paths).
Specifically, those type of Paths will be post-launch at some point.
The system for performing certain actions out of combat will need to be in place prior to that. We should habe the bones of it (or a launch version) which we will build off of.
Also don’t forget about the puzzle-esque system of piecing clues and leads to creating or “crafting” your own mission. This will involve some thought on the player’s part which has nothing to do with their character’s abilities.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Is MWM seriously designing the game for four-year-olds to play?
There is a difference between having a low barrier for entry and being a a child's game. Other games made for children to play have a "click to arrive" feature where you character auto-paths to the destination. Autopathing allows you to just click on the NPC name or quest in your UI and you character automatically runs to it while you afk for a bio break or something. Are we going to have that, too? By all that is holy I hope not!
Granted, here in the real life of the 21st century, maps have become obsolete, and map reading is becoming a lost skill with the advent of GPS directions. So I suppose it is only natural that the UI in City of Titams MMO would give us a location pin on the map to go to [b]if[/b] the destination is a known address or landmark. But if the destination is [b]not[/b] a known address or landmark, it would make far more sense to just highlight the destination somehow (visually and audibly)in the game world and have our characters find it the old fashion way. By asking, listening or otherwise using good detective work.
If I have to find a man hole to get into the sewers, maybe any manhole will do. Or maybe a particular one on University Avenue is what I'm looking for, highlighted by the glowing aura.
Maybe I hear the sounds of someone screaming and my UI lights up with the direction the sound is coming from.
There are so many better ways to do this than designing the game for four-year-olds.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Mario is a game designed for kids but is fun for all ages. Same as a lot of Nintendo games.
A lot of cartoons are designed for kids but can be enjoyed by people of all ages.
Most comic books are made with a wide audience in mind, kids included.
A lot of movies are made for all ages. Disney movies are made primarily to entertain children yet are enjoyable to all audiences and often seen as classics.
There is nothing wrong with designing something with a younger audience in mind.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
That isn’t what I said. The parameters are to accomodate design for a wide range of players, from 4 yesr olds, grandpa and experienced gamers.
Some things are intentionally done for this. Like the diffixulty settings and our basic combat loop letting players go from a slow, but easy way to play to challening themselves.
From basic augs being fairly straight forward in applying and improving your powers, to delving into crafting and getting more complex augs with ref sockets and optimizing your powers to a high degree.
Your age range and accessibility are part of what is called your design scope.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
When I consider that my young nephews know more about smartphones and playing games on them than I do? Or, that there were some very young kids playing CoH? I'm a lot less concerned with the age group that CoTs design addresses. As long as _I_ am entertained, I'm not worrying.
Call me selfish. *grin*
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yes. That is exactly what you said, and you just repeated it here. If your design scope includes 4 year olds, then you are designing the game for four year olds. That means there will be a limit to the complexity of the controls, the complexity of the powers, the maturity of the subject matter, and an entire slate of other design considerations now. I am less than encouraged by this. I thought the intended ESRB rating for this game was going to be T for teen, not EC for early childhood.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Ah yes, as there's no such thing as designing something that's easy to learn hard to master. Obviously because someone may be able to get through the game with a minimum skill level that will be the only skill level there is.
All it means is that there is a low bar of entry not a limit on complexity. The original Mario Bros has a low bar of entry, heck pretty much every NES era game does, you only have 2 buttons, and yet people are still developing new skills in that game.
Just because a game can be simple to learn(at first) doesn't mean it will lack depth or complexity.
Edit: and on the ESRB rating comment? Yeah cause the rating of a game dictates it's complexity and/or who's playing it. That's why there's absolutely no kids who play call of duty or Grand Theft Auto, because as those games are rated higher they're obviously too complex for kids.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Indeed, I fail to see the source of the outrage. Another more modern example is the combat in the Batman Arkham games, easy to learn and execute (really only 2 buttons), but difficult to master (x30+ combos and so forth). If the "4 year old" comment disturbs you, then mentally replace that with "less able gamers." This really isn't going to be a game full of hyper-fast twitch controls and skillshots, so I don't see the problem.
As for markers on the map for quest locations - sure - I mean it really simplified things in CoH while running missions with a pick-up group, especially when there is limited time to play. I really don't want to get a mission and then have to search for the mission entrance - I'd much rather get into the action. Now - for "glowies", it would probably be best to keep them off of the map, at least until you are down to the last one.
You heard it here first folks! [b]"T for Teen" means ages 4 and up![/b]
/em facepalm
Damn Cult of Youth ...
But seriously ... there's a difference between finding 4 year olds [b]capable[/b] of playing City of Titans (because there's always going to be outliers) and outright [b]designing[/b] City of Titans to cater to 4 year olds as a primary inclusion of the game's demographic target from the get go. This is why the [i]"T for Teen" means ages 4 and up![/i] statement/sentiment creates the cognitive dissonance that it does.
It's kind of like how PG-13 is supposed to NOT mean "bring your 4 year old to this movie" ...
[center][img=44x100]https://i.imgur.com/sMUQ928.gif[/img]
[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Thank you. While the directive given to me may have been huperbolic, it was also taken from what we knew was happening in Coh.
Including one of ournown devs having a pair of autistic children that begsn playing CoH at the age of 5. And behond that, was used as a tool to help them leant language and communicate.
We want to design the game in that same spirit. Children were able to play it, adults were able to play it, and there were various ranges of enjoyment found between.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Easy there, Interdictor. We don't need alarmists throwing loaded words like "outrage" around, and turning a meaningful debate into a polarizing argument.
I don't think the issue is with making things easier or more convenient. It is the extrapolation of motives we, the unknowing, see from the datapoints we get.
Some people have faith that MWM will do things perfectly and we should accept their intentions in the best possible way.
Others of us get data points like this and think that MWM is close to falling into the easiest trap to fall into: Making things so convenient that people end up playing the game system instead of the game.
Sure, easy and brainless identification of your mission destination is just one very small item. It is one item that we would all have no problem playing with. But some people, myself included, think that a bit more immersion in finding your mission destination would be better. And if it had been left there, that's all we would be discussing. But when Tannim mentioned that the reason they are doing it is to cater to the developmental capacity and attention span of 4-year olds, that's when people like me have to sound the proximity alarm to that place we don't want to go.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I'd assume if my hero heard that something is going down in the ruined factory on such and such a street I'd assume they'd know where that was, ergo there's a mission pointer straight to it.
This way my hero who has presumably lived in the city and know where things are don't spend ages looking for a place they should know.
That helps my immersion.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
This isn't stuck between 2 polar opposites; either "spend ages looking for a place" or have a pointer leading directly to the goal. There are a lot of variations that can be done between those so everyone mission isn't 'you're at point A, here is point B and the way to go there directly'. It would just be nice to have to use my brain for some things in the game, or have the ability to choose how directly I'm told where to go, like a.)here is an arrow over your head leading directly to the objective, b.)the objective is this (backdoor to ABC building) in this section of this neighborhood, C.).it is north of here in a club. d.)have fun, no clues!
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
Have some choice how directly you go? I've had missions in MMOs that I chose to take months to get to :p
If you can fly you can go there as indirectly as you like including up and down.
You can use your brain in the game as much as you like, power choice, combat optimization, etc. And I'm sure you will be able to turn off the mini map, compass, or whatever directional tool is used.
Having been forced to use my brain to find things in Breath of the Wild (because it's a game I refuse to look up a guide for as the whole point of it is exploration and discovery) I know from experience how frustrating it can be to have to find things based on clues. The clues may seem obvious to designers but can be annoyingly cryptic to players.
So if by clues they'd probably end up being either annoyingly cryptic or so easy that it's just busy work at that point.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I'd just as soon be able to google my destination, thanks.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I'm not sure you fully grasped my point. If I am at a contact and the contact gives me a tip or mission to a warehouse, I am just wanting an option in the game settings that I can adjust before I start playing to where the minimap will display different 'options' based on the setting. For example, the option requiring no brain power would be to have an arrow over your head that points to the destination. The next, requiring slightly more thought, would be a dot on the mini map that may not show up until you get within a certain distance but you could open up the full map and see it as well as your character. The next step up would be no arrow, no dot, just a highlighted area on the main map and the information from the contact like "the warehouse is behind a gas station and has a mural on one wall of a gopher in a purple tank top with a gold necklace, tall mo-hawked hair, and vans" so you would know a general area, marked on the map, but would still have to be engaged in looking for the visual clue. The last option, the hardest but obviously always optional, would be only the description from the contact, no general area being indicated. These different options would be select-able so you could choose whichever play style you like.
Also, my fault for not clarifying, when I mentioned using my brain I was only thinking of actual gameplay, like in the act of moving and playing. Choosing powers, enhancements, crafting, etc, are obviously going to require a lot of thought as well. I didn't mean to infer that this was the only area where I wanted to 'use my brain'.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
I feel your pain here. The same thing happens with the alignment and reputation ramifications of dialogue options with NPCs. SWTOR is lousy with nonsecial ramifications, but at least those designers had the wisdom to show you what those ramifications are prior to you making your decisions. The Secret World has done an adequate job of making the clues fit the objective, but still some of them would have you going to or doing something completely different than what the game designers had in mind.
If the clues in this game are used to send us to missions, I hope we assemble the clues in their own UI window which then gives us a pop-up as to what we deduced from them. This is an RPG after all, and we can't expect all the players to be as talented as the characters we are playing. Or as talented as Batman is with Riddles:
[youtube]HXKYQvP0zQ0[/youtube]
Therefore, I would expect that a certain amount of deduction happens "off-stage" and when we "combine" the clues we get to see the result, whether it makes sense to us or not.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
The problem with any clue based directions is that those need to be programmed in by the devs, which makes the selection of possible mission entry points be limited as any possible entry points would need a list of clues to point people in the right direction.
Where as having a point on the map for you to head to only requires the point in question ping itself on the map.
And again such clues as the one you gave would require the player to check every gas station for a warehouse near it, and/or every wall near there for the mural. I have no idea about the size of the map or how often parts of it get repeated. So unless every location in the map is unique somehow there'll probably be ways that the clues point to more than one place.
Such a clues system would require far more work than it's use would warrant as I'd bet most players just want to get to their mission. Didn't CoX have a mission teleporter item/power? Probably because combat is fun and searching for a dang door isn't.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
My 4 year old sat on my lap and learned to play CoH. By the time he was 6, he was a better player than some of the so-called "experienced" players. Only concession we had to make was the use of Team Speak as his typing/reading skills weren't at our level yet.
Why do I say he was a better player? He Listened to instructions from the team and didn't try to to do it HIS way!
As I understand the leads system that's planned you get parts of a mission (the what, the who, and the where) and can mix up any three as you like. Which is kind of like that.
I could see missions that require you to gather x number of clues by street sweeping or perhaps you gain a clue in certain missions to piece together a larger plot. Which then gets you another mission.
But for normal missions? I'll pass on a convoluted clues system just to find out where my next fun combat is.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
The assmblr clues to “craft a mission” will have its own crafting table we call a “clue board”. We even discussed providing customization of the clue board to fit a variety of aesthetics.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Excellent. I like that. A dark wizard could conduct a dark ritual to get the mission from the clues while a detective like Batman could consult a lab or his computer. I like where you guys are going with this.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Would it be difficult/time-consuming for MWM to provide an option to toggle nav point display? If that wouldn't take too many resources, I'd think that might satisfy the majority of viewpoints expressed on this thread.
Spurn all ye kindle.
If you want to know WHERE to go in order to find something of interest, what is this telling you?
[img]https://i.imgur.com/mDG5ALy.jpg[/img]
How about this image?
[img]https://i.imgur.com/7kOvMvt.jpg[/img]
Which way should you go to find what you're looking for?
[img]https://i.imgur.com/9lhNqyg.jpg[/img]
How about now?
[img]https://i.imgur.com/EkO31lQ.jpg[/img]
Are ANY of these cues/clues so annoyingly cryptic (even though these screenshots come from a game made by Cryptic Studios?) that you feel like an ADULT couldn't understand them? How about a 4 year old? Think a 4 year old can figure out what to do with this information?
Or perhaps you think that these examples are just busy work. Is this too much busy work for an ADULT to put up with in a game? How about a 4 year old? Think this sort of cue system would frustrate a 4 year old?
The video I posted is only 6:21 long. Watch the gameplay happen IN CONTEXT and get back to me about how complicated you think this would be to use to play a game (that's been in public release from Cryptic Studios for over 5 years already).
[youtube]OaA5X-ecUbY[/youtube]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
How is any of that different from just having an arrow over your head pointing you towards your destination?
Having to click a "what way now?" Button every so often is busy work. It stops momentum and I'd rather just have a way point on a map to head to.
The pointer isn't a clue, it's a pointer. A clue would be "by the red rocks in the valley" which having to decipher clues like that would be frustrating.
In BotW a clue I got for a thing was something like "at the top of the three waterfalls at such and such a lake" when I got there there were about 9 or so waterfalls. It was frustrating to have to search an area using nothing but a cryptic clue. I would have loved a pointer, but then that would probably go against the games design philosophy of exploration and discovery.
A super hero game is not about exploration and discovery. It is about being a super hero. Batman does not need to follow clues to know where the old abandoned funtime toy factory is. He knows Gotham he knows where it is. He might need clues to tell him that's where the joker is but that's as easy as having a glowie I'm a previous mission or having a thing drop from a goon.
Would it be neat to have detective style stuff in the game? Yes, and the devs have stated it's something they're working on. Does knowing where your missions are have to be a BS minigame? No. No it does not. Just tell me where to go so I can punch/blast my foes and gain my XP.
Some people don't have the time or patience to faff about with additional systems that are only there to make you getting to your destination slower.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Which is why I said it would be nice for options...so you could choose if you wanted a pointer or not...
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
And again I assume there'll be an option to get rid of any kind of compass, pointer, or mini-map. Even if it's just editing your HUD to get rid of them.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
You're using those terms in different ways than I was for different purposes than I was. So fine, let's use your terminology then.
First of all, if you'd actually watched the video of gameplay provided, you would have noticed something. The lack of STOPPING to use the "pointer" as you call it. The "pointer" persists for multiple seconds and doesn't require stopping movement to use.
But I get it. You'd rather be spoon fed the answers (where am I going to?) rather than suffer through the challenge/indignity/tedium of trying to figure it out for yourself [i]even with a "pointer" on demand[/i] that you can use as much as you want guiding you to your destination that is under your (Player) control as to whether to use it or not. The only difference in that respect between having a destination marker and a "pointer" on demand is that the destination marker is continuously displayed, while the "pointer" on demand is displayed intermittently (although with enough work on the Player's part it the "pointer" can be displayed nigh constantly if you really need the training wheels that much to ride a bike).
Y'know ... now that you've laid it out like that ... your objection does seem to be of a piece with lots of other little objections (not just by you Project_Hero) in which people want things that when added up together will make the game not that fun or challenging to play. Like how people want big loot drops from everything, but then never need to spend IGC on anything at all, so the game can't have any IGC sinks in it (who cares about the in-game economy so long as I'M RICH!). Public transportation should be free (yeah right, in what major American city is THAT ever going to last for long without massive tax hikes?). People want to have a BIG world to play in, that they can skip past in an instant in order to not waste time traveling around to mission doors and the like. People want the game to be challenging, without needing to lift a finger to play it (metaphorically speaking). We want to have a T for Teen game that caters to 4 year olds(!). People want to push a button and reveal the entire map, rather than actually explore it by moving around in it. People want the game to be filled with conveniences that cater to and comfort the lazy, leaving no room for challenges, complexity or even real THOUGHT needed to progress, prosper or have fun. People want to show off their "skillz" in a game that should be designed to not only not NEED but also not make use of Player Skill or situational awareness.
No less a personage than Richard Garriott once said that what makes a game FUN to play is a succession of little decisions made by the Player that add up to controlling your own destiny in a medium of entertainment (or words to that effect, I don't remember the exact quote). As Players, we put more stock and value into what WE can do, as a result of our own decision power and priorities, than we do in having answers handed to us on a silver platter because we're too lazy to get up and do things for ourselves. The rewards that flow from that steady stream of decision making process is first and foremost the sense that you're actually [b]IN[/b] the game, rather than merely watching it (passively, like a spectator).
As I said, having a destination marker is simply TOO EASY of an answer to the question of "where do I go now?" in a lot of cases, especially with modern games designed after 2005. There's a reason why Cryptic didn't reuse the destination marker in Star Trek Online. Perhaps we can learn from their example?
Basically what I'm trying to say here is ... the mantra of "There's No Free Lunch" also applies to FUN in playing a game. When the game does everything for you ... where's the fun in PLAYING it? Are you playing the game, or is the game playing you?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Star Trek as a series is about exploration and discovery, ergo having to discover where to go is part of the experience. It's part and parcel with the source material.
Why does finding where your mission is have to be a challenge?
If you can use a pointer on demand at any time with no loss of momentum what is the difference between it and just having a way point? To me the difference is having to click a button constantly. Is clicking a button really more fun or more challenging than not having to do that?
Adding conveniences to cater to the lazy are prime cash shop items. Mission teleporters, travel speed increases, XP boosts, etc. All great for getting people to part with their money for convenience.
People can get by in a fighting game by button mashing. A child can do this. It's fun for them. An adult learns the combos and special moves, timing, all sorts of advanced moves, it's fun for them.
A game can have a low bar of entry and additional complexity. You may not need much skill to get a character from level 1-50, you probably need skill in build or play to do the higher end content. There can be complexity and challenge in a game without the whole game being challenging.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Come on Redlynne, if a person disagrees with your really cool idea, you don't have to write them into the 'too stupid to play in the streets' category.
I also don't need an arrow or a glowing trail of light to find my destination... Usually. A pin on the mini-map is good enough. And, sometimes, the Devs have gotten 'clever' and the location is not-so-obvious, like that spot in Skyway, where the door is Under the parking lot and you have to figure out how to get down there. When that happens, I'd like the Option of letting the game lead me by the hand, before I get so frustrated at not being able to find it that I decide to quit.
I can't say that playing 'Marco - Polo' with my goal sounds attractive. Sorry, I'd rather go to my destination and get inside, so I can hunt down all the bad guys and beat them up. The Journey may be an interesting part of the story, but I don't want to have to do that Every Time!
Be Well!
Fireheart
Exactly. There is a difference in considering the possibility of inclusion and specifically catering toward.
Providing ease of play to keep the barrier of entry low and with layered complexity to provide a depth of play for those who enjoy it.
As to adding another feature which would require redoing work for multiple teams, I think we're at the point where adding features isn't going to help us get to launch. There is a ton of stuff we want to add to the game, would have loved to include for launch, but ultimately, isn't necessary for us to launch the game which is being held back. This happens with many games during the design process and is nothing new to the industry. We have to keep an eye on the scope and keep narrowing it down to our core systems and game play.
I'm not convinced that Red's idea of requiring players to constantly search out to find where to go is significant enough to require redoing a bunch of already completed work.
I can easily flip Red's concept on its head.
Because everyone in a modern city is drives around constantly wondering which direction they should go when trying to get someone, constantly adjusting on the fly because they keep turning their head to search for direction...
No one uses GPS. When a character is told a robbery is going down at Mark's Jewelry Store, and you're not sure where to go, RPing (or better yet having an emote which can cover a variety of themes) of your character taking out a phone, crystal ball, etc...to map the location would never happen.
As said, this isn't an exploration game. If the majority of the game were written to where most location descriptions were meant to be vague and the players had to explore the city to always figure out where something might be happening related to what they were told, then this may make more sense. I seriously doubt the majority of the game will be written that way.
Certain content may be purposefully written that way. One example we used during internal discussions (besides the sewer example) was for a really simple Plot (a single piece of content). You overhear (or see a woman's speech bubble because maybe your a telepath and she didn't speak, you read her mind) an old woman complaining about her cat getting stuck in a tree. You can do things the "easy way" and have your maker set on, and it will show you the park location several blocks away. Or you could turn it off and follow the lady as she walks to the park. Or you can deduce from the direction she is headed and look ahead to see there is a park. Once there, you check the trees, maybe you hear the kitten. Maybe you just look for it and find one in a tree. Click the kitten, it jumps down to follow you. You bring it to the old lady.
See, options. One lets players play with rails on and makes life super simple. The other lets players have the rails off and allows them more freedom of thought in how to proceed.
People who have a harder time with processing, or are very new to gaming can play. People who don't like being hand-held can play.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Rights so you're saying immersion is a large factor in regards to designing a game?
To me having a contact saying that my "target" is at/in a specific adress/building/place and then having to "scan" for it by constantly tapping a button and following a directional arrow is less immersing than having a dot marking the actual location. That would be a very bad GPS if the only thing it could do is give a directional arrow for a very limited time.
Honestly speaking, there is no one way to do it so optimally the way to find the "mission door" would depend on the mission itself. However since it seems we are getting only one method then I feel that map marker would fit this specific game best overall. Maybe a directional arrow fits STO best but that doesn't mean that it's the best fit for every other game out there.
As I said before, [b]if[/b] the mission is at a known location, like an address or a landmark, then a marker on the map is all we need. Doing anything else is unrealistically complicating the process. But if the mission destination is [b]not[/b] known to the character, I would like it if we had some way of finding it out.
It could be that you know there is a house on Porter street, but you don't know which one. The mission could be designed to go to porter street and ask wandering NPCs about suspicious activity. Or to take this light spectrum analzer and look for the house who's garage is emitting too much ultraviolet light.
There are so many great ways we could immerse our characters into the world that don't have a logic tree that goes like this: "this is where you need to go." "Why do I know this?" "Because you do."
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
There are so many ways that a hero could find out where they need to go that setting up a mission like this will leave most unhappy.
What my magic hero can't just use divination to find where they need to go?
Why can't my character with x-ray vision just see where they need to go?
Can't I just stare into the windows?
Why is my grimdark hell beast talking to people?
It's better to just say "here it is" and if you want to head canon how you found the place all the power to you.
Again for clues it's better to just have them be glowies or drops from goons that lead you to the place.
What might be neat in a task force is having a number of locations as possible mission entry points but only one is real so the team needs to split up to find out which is the real one. "Evil badman is setting up in a warehouse! But which one?" Cue multiple points on the map and a time limit.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
There's a difference between saying "76 Totters Lane" and saying "somewhere in the middle of Bradford" in terms of specificity. It's like being told that something is on "the main drag" ... which is a general area. You get close and then you search is what happens when you're not intimately familiar with an area, or have directions that take you right to the exact spot you need to be.
And then there's [url=https://what3words.com/]THIS[/url] approach.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
The fact there's so many ways a hero could track down bad guys that trying to narrow it down to any specific clue system or such is just... Messy.
My hero could have read a badguy's mind and knows exactly where to go.
My hero could be a master detective and worked it out based on the henchmen or any number of other clues.
Super hearing to hear where they are.
Divination magic.
An orbital satellite with multiple different sensors.
Talked to animals.
Is a super speedster so they literally checked everywhere.
There's so many possibilities that a hero could narrow down "somewhere in the middle of Bradford" that essentially asking the devs to make up a bunch of powers or animations to do this is infeasible.
The easiest and simplest way to allow everyone's character to do it their own way is to just say "here is where the mission is" how you got that information then is entirely up to your imagination.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
All excellent questions. But not one of them would provide a marker on a map from the other side of town. Besides the game assuuming you have x-ray vision is just as bad, or worse, than it assuming you don't. Because there will be far more characters running around without it than with it.
If your character has the divination power, use it. I think that would be a great addition to make in the game.
If you are asking this question then you obviously didn't read the MWM posts about dialogue choices.
Here is the link: https://cityoftitans.com/comment/135458#comment-135458
So if you are playing a grimdark hell beast, you would probably be chasing the people down and scaring the information from them. It all depends on which dialogue options you choose.
I disagree. I do not think that is better.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
City of Heroes routinely used street sweeping in a particular neighborhood as the gate behind which you'd find out where the mission door was. Street sweep 50 Rikti in Founders' Falls was merely one of the examples of this. The Dr Q TF in Firebase Zulu had multiple Kill 150 Rularuu at Point {insert area here} as part of its progression. Why was this done? Because that's how Batman gets his info on where the hideout of his target is. Beat up enough street thugs and someone's going to tell you where you need to go.
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Why not skip the boring busy work? Has anyone thought that having to click on random NPCs to give them the move the plot forward button fun? Has anyone ever found it fun to click on a multitude of clickables to find the one you need? Or has this only ever got a "finally!" From players.
Busy work is not fun.
Running about for ages looking for a thing is not fun.
Moving about the map can be fun but not when you're trying to look for a thing.
Should we also put in a bunch of other powers into the game who's sole purpose is to get rid of the annoying part of the game?
Ok, grimdark hell beast is a bad example, probably wouldn't be doing missions anyway.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I find those missions to be lazy. I always preferred the CoH missions that were "defeat all x" inside a building. Or "find x" and click the glowie.
Edit: as for why it was done one of two reasons. Either A. To diversify the mission structure, or B. Because it's easy, an MMO staple, and requires zero thought.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Let's clarify something then, based on your last two posts.
Anything that's NOT combat is considered "busy work" that serves no useful purpose ... is what I'm receiving from you.
Going places.
Meeting people.
Finding stuff.
... all of that is pointless busy work put there to waste your time that could otherwise be spent mashing buttons beating up on hostile mobs. How far am I off the mark with that assessment?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Very.
Going places is fine. But yeah, going places can be busy work. If it's not fun and not worth any XP or money it's mostly there to waste your time. Movement in CoH was fun (for a time) but how many with flight set themselves on a direction then went to the bathroom or to get something to eat or drink? What fun. So fun that people use it like a commercial break.
Meeting people is fine. Having to talk to random unnamed NPCs who 90% of which will say something like "sorry, I can't help you" is busy work. The NPCs don't matter they're just a barrier between you and the mission.
Finding stuff is fine. Searching for it in an MMO is busy work. If I have to find one clickable in an area and 9/10 of those will be fakes it's not fun. You go to a glowing object, click it, s'not it, go to another one, click it, s'not it, rinse and repeat till you get it. How. Fun. The act of searching isn't fun, clicking it isn't fun, finding out it's the wrong one isn't fun, it's not fun. There's no chance of failure. It's busy work to pad out an experience. Find an item by fighting your way through a lair filled with enemies is fun. Trying to find that one remaining object that you missed somehow? Not fun.
Anything in a game that is not fun or the purpose of the game is busy work. Grinding so you're strong enough to beat a boss is busy work, grinding for hours and hours to find those 100 whatever's you need for a quest is busy work.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
So not 'very'.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
Yes very. Not everything needs to be about combat. But anything that's not fun is busy work.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Fun is 100% subjective.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.
Yes. But is clicking random glowwies fun? Is clicking random NPCs fun? I assume most people would say no.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Fun being subjective, some may find such tasks tedious. Others mah find themselves immersed in the story having to check a warehouse full of boxes to find the stolen merch.
One of the things I aim to do is to take these basic elements and provide multiple methods for success.
Maybe you beat up enough guys and one finally confesses to where the stolen merch is at.
Maybe you do sneak around checking random boxes .
Maybe you have a super sense that helps you locate it.
Maybe as you work your way through the warehouse you notice a scanner for logging and tracking shiippkng crates and checkkng that you notice the log says 12 crates came in and llisrs them in a specific order but one of the tracking numbers is out of place. On a hunch, you the player check where that crate is logged. And now you know where to go....
Will this happen all the time? Probably not. But is is a long term goal we have in providing more than one way to progress in a mission.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
I'd have it if you cleared the warehouse then the mission counts as done. Or have you auto leave with a message saying you searched the boxes. With no threat of discovery, or anyone to impede your progress it just becomes busy work.
And that's basically the difference.
In D&D you can just say "I search the room". In 5th edition, provided you're not under duress, you just do it. No need for a roll, you can take your time and find whatever. Having to go through every 5ft square of the room and say "I search this square" then keep rolling till you succeed would just be boring and slow down gameplay.
Edit: or as an addition to my first point have the screen fade out, you hear some scuffling sounds, fades in with a message telling you you searched the boxes and found what you needed.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Context. These steps give missions context. I actually agree with Project Hero in post #50 that busy work is not fun. Putting something in the game just to make busy work is a time sink just like there are IGC sinks in the game. Time sinks are penalties, by their nature.
HOWEVER, there are greater issues at play here. Having to get the location of the next mission door by interacting with NPCs is a way to insert context, flavor and atmosphere into a mission without resorting to a wall of text or other more boring exposition options. Remember a mission is a story in which your character is the main character. What good is a stroy without other actors, without plot and fun little details and quirky side characters that make the whole thing memorable?
Maybe talking to the NPCs discloses other details about the house on Porter Street that help you with the mission if you listen well enough. Maybe they also tell you about a side entrance if you ask the right questions.
Like I said before, there are so many better ways to reveal a mission door than just putting a marker on a map.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Interacting with specific NPCs can be fun, yes. But if a mission was essentially go to this general area and have dialogue options with at least 4/10 unnamed NPCs there it would get tedious fast.
Having to go to a snitch and talk to him to give up a badguy's location is fun. Possibly through the right dialogue options or with the right way of interrogation have him give up more useful information for you that change something about the mission is fun.
It's only fun when the things you're doing and the characters you interact with matter. Talking to no name NPCs doesn't matter.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
You've got a mental model of the situation in your head that I am having difficulty making sense of. What did you mean with this statement?
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
You mentioned having to talk to NPCs near the mission entry. Would these be important NPCs? With stories and missions of their own? Or just random people walking around? If it's the latter they're just decoration and having to talk to them is more or less meaningless. They have no character, you'll learn nothing interesting from them, other than what you need to unlock the mission entrance.
It's kind of like if in D&D you wanted to question the townsfolk as to the whereabouts of Baron von Evilton and instead of being able to go "I question the townsfolk" the DM made you RP every interaction with every NPC until the DM decides to give you the information. It's a complete waste of time. Talking to them adds nothing, at least nothing most players would care about.
Which is why having an interaction with one fleshed out character is better than with glorified sign posts. And if all the NPCs you'd talk to are fleshed out that's one heck of a lot of work that could have probably be spent on something better than a glorified key.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I would love to do some detective work, but I see that as a post max level type of thing, before max I will be too go go go and won't want to search around for stuff. But once I'm maxed out I won't care if I take all day on a single path. Just my opinion
The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One
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Thank you for the explanation.
Well, some characters exist only to be keys. They are called plot devices and no good story would exist without them. I don't see why any author would go to such great lengths to develop a character who's sole purpose is to expose some information and offer some flavor to the story.
Besides, if you are the grimdark hell beast, the game should give you opportunities to play it out. Scaring a bunch of random civilians into telling you where the hideout is provides that opportunity. And if you are the friendly hero type, it would give you the chance to interact with your adoring fans and get the positive feedback that makes you the player feel just that bit more heroic.
The point is that there is an opportunity to provide more flavor and context to your mission if you do something other than throw a thumbtack on someone's map. If the mission authors choose to use that opportunity only to provide busywork, then I'll agree with you it is a wasted one.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
It would be entertaining to have a conversation option of Just to scare peeps.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
I find just one issue with these "options", one crack point. This is a mmorpg and not Dragon Age.
In a mmorpg "Thunder" speaks with "Tannim" that's a close live person doing the same quest. Let's say I'm the person that dislikes being hand-held by the game, but Tennim is the person that activates the auto-teleport-arrow-easy-button system to find the kitten 5 seconds sooner.
Once we play together, or close by, or we just chat to each other, we will discover and feel the difference.
The difference is that Tennim leaves me behind because the developers thought to give him (kind of player B) an advantage compared to me (kind of player A). So I will feel forced to activate all the easy-win-button too, to stay on par. At that point the "options" have lost value, since both players are using the easy route.
And at this point I guess that's the reason why so many games are just easy, because it doesn't make sense to create the hard route when you also put an easy-win button in game, if the button exists it will be used, and even more in an online game. Since in a single player rpg you (player) can manage to ignore the rest of the world and play as you prefer. But an online game is built to experience things together with other peoples, the player can't ignore that the rest of the world rotates much faster than him. The only player who can is the one that intends to play it single-player, which is not your (developers) purpose I guess.
POSSIBLE SOLUTION:
Balance easy-win-button with hard-thinking rewards (not the in-game rewards you get, but the time you spend to reach the same result).
The majority of players will use the easy-win-button if it exists. Therefore the solutions are two:
- either you don't create the easy-win-button at all (and we all know that any developer will say "no" to this for several reasons, even more so City of Titans ones that want the game to be accessible to all kind of players, and I agree with them here)
- or you balance the easy-win-button results with the hard-thinking route. For example, taking again my example of Thunder and Tennim with the kitten, it would be balanced if Tennim is forced to wait some time when taking the easy route (for example by forcing him to see a loading-bar to auto-find the kitten, a loading bar that will make him wait 5 seconds) while Thunder will feel that he's got 5 seconds to check around and find the park with the kitten on his own.
The options must be always balanced in results, or are fake options that will be good just for a few masochists. I'm not even sure the 5 secs loading bar is a good solution (it may bore the player), but the issue with the unbalanced "options" still remain and if you have a better solution I'm all ears.
I disagree, Thunder.
Not everyone will use easy win buttons. Sure some will but others won't. An easy mode in a game does not devalue the harder options.
In CoH, Champions Online, and many many other MMOs there are flavor of the month builds. Someone finds a combo that happens to be more powerful due to some oversight in a patch or some other reasons. Does everyone automatically switch their builds to it? It's the easy button. Does it devalue anyone else's experience for not switching to the FotM build? (Which depending on how broken the build is it can but only if you're in direct competition or are being overshadowed on a team. But the choice at least there is to not team with people using said build)
In Breath of the Wild there's an easy mode. It's called using a guide. Does it's existence devalue my experience for having not used it? I don't find. It's a nice thing to have as when the game get's too frustrating I can (and have for the really annoying things) look things up.
In your cat in a tree example. Provided that player A's cat is in a different tree than player Bs them using the easy mode does nothing for you. But if after about an hour and you still can't find the cat the help is right there for you.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Anything that gets overused will draw displeasure. Nothing breeds contempt like familiarity.
I will certainly grant you that in City of Heroes, there were a number of what my friends and I called either fed-ex runs or pizza missions, because the only thing they were was making deliveries ... usually to a telephone, often in the middle of NOWHERE, for no readily apparent reason other than to make you run all over the map. It really FELT LIKE the entire point of the exercise was to just make you run around for the sake of running around. There wasn't a coherent STORY driven reason for it, but rather it was just lousy writing in the script that brought on that specific chain of events. So rather than a DPS check, the mission was really just a Speed check, and a poorly disguised one too.
So I will definitely grant you that the formula that City of Heroes used for those felt somewhat contemptuous to me, as a Player. We did them (since they were necessary for the progression), but they were really just "run around and find the mission door at the end" ... which in many cases was pointless since the same mission door got used every time for some of them, meaning if you'd done the mission before you already knew where to to. No mystery, no suspense, no story to tell ... no point or interest. That's what made it unfun.
That said, I wouldn't have minded an alternative formulation using the same elements.
Since Paragon City had all those public phone boxes everywhere, it would have made perfect sense to me to have a Contact tell me "go to this phone box over here, wait for a phone call, answer the call and get your final instructions" which would then reveal the location of the mission door. Basically go to the right map and enter the neighborhood, go to a(n information) drop point, receive the final briefing/sitrep info while close by to your destination and then head on in. Basically the classic "answer the phone across the street before heading in" type scenario you see all the time in older cinema. That way, rather than going STRAIGHT to your destination, there's a quick pit stop (in the neighborhood) before getting your final destination marker. Yes, it's adding one step, but it's also a step that lets you do all kinds of things like being able to meet up with the local snitch (either in person or over the phone) to get that last bit of local knowledge info before heading into a mission door. That's then an opportunity for storytelling that goes above and beyond just punching stuff in the face all the time. This could also be something as simplistic as needing to be within the boundaries of a particular neighborhood before getting a phone call on your cell phone telling you which of the 3 NPC factions in that neighborhood you need to defeat 20 of (chosen at random). That then turns a street sweeping mission into a question "what am I going to be street sweeping?" into one where the answer is "you'll know when you get there" rather than being one where "I'll tell you right now up front." That very intention of applying even so slight a variation (could be 20 Skulls, could be 20 Hellions, RNGesus will decide!) then offers the replay value of uncertainty should you ever need/are obligated to repeat that specific mission.
With respect to the question of FUN ... that's a result of using the tools at hand properly (I would even argue, cleverly!) to create an engaging environment for interactive entertainment to take place in.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
With regards to Fed ex quests I remember Champions had one that was literally "deliver this letter to the guy across the table from me." It's free easy XP but what the hell? Who ok'd that?
If we do Fed ex quests I want them to be more like the episode of Young Justice where kid Flash needed to deliver a heart to a hospital across the country for a transplant. Something that seems immediate and important. Maybe with a time limit and a fail state. Give it some consequence that isn't just going back to the NPC and hitting retry.
Heck maybe things like that can be missions that just show up. That'd make traveling pretty sweet. You fly over see a store getting robbed, a car getting stolen, or an ambulance has been involved in a crash, they need help and they need it now.
A couple of the Spider-man games (ultimate Spiderman for one) has events like that that just happen in the city. It'd be great to have stuff like that. Stuff that isn't as static as CoHs burning building (though it was a good step)
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Whiskey.
Tango.
Foxtrot.
Being a courier, and having difficulties along the way (getting lost, being ambushed, etc.) is one of the staple tropes of not only superhero comics but also of medical dramas, military dramas, basically anything where Important McGuffin™ Must Be Delivered! turns into essentially a "race" to get the item delivered to the people who need it. THAT is a perfectly legitimate storyline to both use and develop.
What's not legitimate is requiring the PC to fulfill this role because people's feet are nailed to the floor (my arms can't reach the guy across the table, could you hand them this for me?) since it calls into question the COMPETENCY of the Sender ... as well as sending the PC on what essentially amounts to a Wild Goose Chase forcing them to go hither and yon for functionally no discernable reason other than to lengthen the distance of the trip in a sort of Rube Goldberg Delivery method. I will [b]easily[/b] grant you that such formulations of the ... formula ... are wasteful and amount to nothing more than busy work, like you've said.
Again, I agree with the substance of your point. If something is important enough to need to be delivered by hand from Point A to Point B, courier style by the PC, then the item in question either needs to be something perishable (necessitating a time limit on completion) or something that an opposition force wants to prevent arriving (meaning ambushes along the way). It shouldn't be the functional equivalent of "deliver this pizza whenever you get bored of doing other stuff instead" with no sense of urgency to it whatsoever. Non-urgent deliveries that have no time sensitivity to them don't NEED the PC in order to get delivered. Hire a (normal) kid on a bike to deliver the item. Call Fed-UPS to have it delivered by next week (to the other side of the table you moron!) because there's obviously no sense of urgency involved.
Just about the one exception to this that I can think of (although I'm sure there's others) would be to set up a surveillance net around a particular location. The basic structure of the mission would be to go to a group of locations surrounding a particular central location to as to set up monitoring devices (audio, video, motion detectors, wireless signals recorders, you get the idea ... monitoring) where the whole point and purpose is to set up a series of "emplacements" ... presumably without being caught doing it (so mission bonus for NOT getting into combat before completing task?). That would then fall under the heading of essentially being "spy work" where getting into fights and beating people up goes AGAINST the purpose of the mission, so getting stuff done on the "down low" becomes the objective for maximal success. Needless to say, such a formulation still doesn't fit with getting sent all over Steel Canyon or Talos Island to answer ringing phone boxes like a trail of breadcrumbs (needlessly) strewn in the PC's path "leading" them on a pointless journey.
Or taking that even more small time ... purse snatching.
You'll remember that in City of Heroes, no villains on the street EVER managed to successfully snatch a purse from anyone. In later issues, there was even some street dialogue between NPCs (put in by War Witch) to the effect of "No man, I'm telling you. He GOT the purse!" lampshading the fact that no purses were ever successfully stolen in Paragon City. That's because you could stand outside of range of a purse snatching in progress and watch the tug-o-war go on forever, so long as you didn't aggro the hostile NPCs.
Now imagine that there's a limit to the number of times the tug-o-war involved in a purse snatching can go back and forth (say, maybe 3 times?), after which the hostile NPC "wins" and successfully snatches the purse (or shopping bag, or whatever the object of contention is since it's petty street theft). The hostile NPCs then run off with their ill gotten booty, leaving the civilian calling out for help. If a PC doesn't intervene fast enough, the civilian gets robbed. If a PC does intervene fast enough to avert the outcome, the civilian gets their property back. Either way, the situation "resolves" in some form or fashion, rather than being locked in a state of needing some PC to show up to interrupt the stalemate of the purse snatching already in progress.
Needless to say, actually USING such a formulation would mean that purse snatchings will need to be RARE events, otherwise you'll have dozens if not hundreds of civilians being robbed all the time in broad daylight [i]regardless of police presence[/i] which leads to a lot of questions you don't want you Players to start asking about your game world. But if it's something that happens relatively rarely (like once per ZONE every 4 minutes or so) then it can become something memorable for the Players who encounter it (and either stop it or idly sit by and watch it play out).
And if it's a RARE event like that, then that opens up the possibility of such an event being used to give the PC a Clue that can then be assembled into a mission at some point (Batman style). There seems to be an increase in purse snatchings in Old Bradford, possibly meaning that one of the low level gangs in the area is preparing to make a move on a rival. After foiling enough of them (3?) the PC discovers there's a pattern to them, which then puts them on the trail of {insert hostile plot here} based out of {location} and it's up to your PC to go in and put a stop to it (after assembling the clues gathered in foiling the attacks). That sort of thing, basically.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
You could cut down on the frequency of such things by having them happen client side. That way you wouldn't have 26 heroes responding to a mugging. I'd think only the player and teammates would be able to see it. Having civilians in such a situation cry out for help would be nice too, you get a message "Help!" Or something of the like, then waypoint on map from the point of origin!
Having an option for villains would be good with a mugging too as they could beat up the mugger then leave with the purse/wallet once they're outside a radius they get XP and IGC.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
Not everyone, in fact a few masochists will not, but the huge majority will and it's enough to devalue the harder options, yes, since as I said the player cannot close the eyes to the world around since online games are supposed to be played together.
The majority switches to the top-build, yes. I'm sure you could answer your self here, since that's the huge problem with balancing the mmorpgs, felt by so many players that don't just "get behind" in a team, but they even get insulted to not following the "rule" of the tank, or the "rule" of the healer, or the "rule" of the perfect build of the moment ("noob you don't know that skill is better than the one you selected for animation purposes?").
And the fault for all of this is on the developers, which often don't put enough effort on balancing stuff. Some games are balanced enough to not create such issues. When a game instead is completely unbalanced you will see the worse of it, and there the devs simply either don't play their own game or they didn't waste enough time thinking about the balancing side.
I'm sure City of Titans devs care much more than usual, and I'm pretty sure the game will go in a fine direction soon or later, but I want to remind them that "balance" is not something related to skills only, it's something that's linked to everything time-consuming you do in game and to any option/choice/decision the player will face in game.
If you don't balance the choices well enough (perfection doesn't exist, but you just need to get close to that to make it so the majority of players feel really free to select one option or the other) the options lose value, becoming a waste of development resources, so either you put 100% of your effort there balancing the "time lost by the player or the result" or you don't.
I wouldn't say the majority especially in a game where your powers are as much a part of your character as your costume. I don't expect a fire hero to suddenly switch to power control because it's better, though in City of Titans the difference would be purely mechanical so we might see a lot more of this.
And again the existence of an easier option does not devalue the harder options. If in CoH you went around and found all the badges yourself, no guides, no one showing you where they are it's an achievement. Yes in the end they'd be worth the same but the player who found them all by themselves would feel a lot more pride in their accomplishment than someone who followed a guide or had someone else just show them where they are.
Farming for XP in CoH was an easy button and yes a lot of people took that route (some because they'd already got several heroes to max level the hard way already) but that didn't stop people from running every other kind of mission. Other missions and task forces didn't become ghost towns of barely anyone running them. It wasn't just "a few masochists".
If you make the process without the easy button fun enough then people will do it because they like it. If the options are A. A quick and easy completion of the thing or B. A frustrating thing that takes way too long, then yeah, people are going to almost always take option A. But if the options are A. A quick and easy completion or B. A fun time that takes a bit longer, then people might just want to have fun rather than just getting it done.
Some people like a challenge. Others do not. There are multiple ways to have fun. Having an easy mode on a game like Dark Souls doesn't make the harder settings suddenly unfun for those who enjoy it.
You know what was/is unfun? When I play an older game and it's hard as heck because it's been made with old arcade mentality so I switch it down to an easier setting, but then at some arbitrary point the game stops and it tells me to play on a harder setting to see the rest. That is unfun.
Some people lack the skill, time, or investment to have to play a game the hard way. This is why a lot of RPGs have a "Story Mode" now, people don't want to sit there for hours grinding up XP so they can continue getting the thing they like from the game. But does everyone then play on the story mode setting? No. It's there. It's an option. It doesn't devalue the other game modes at all. I own FF IX on steam it has additional options to make the game easier. I have never activated them. I am not a masochist. I generally play on the normal mode of games. I bet most people do also. Even if said game has an easy mode.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
We know with absolute certainty in the MMORPG context that this statement is false. It has been proven repeatedly false.
Quick Katie versus Dr. Q Task Forces anyone?
A better way of putting it would be that an easier option does not invalidate the choice of taking the harder options ... while simultaneously acknowledging that the lure of the [b]Path Of Least Resistance[/b] has a very strong tendency of becoming not only the mainstream but also the default assumption around which the (so called) "conventional wisdom" of the game will coalesce around.
If this were not true, then Yoda's warning about "quicker, easier, more seductive" would have no resonance or meaning to us all these decades later, even outside the movie context in which the line was delivered.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
Luke: is the dark side more fun?
Yoda: quicker, easier, more seductive it is.
If the options are equally fun then both are relevant choices.
The path of least resistance is there, certainly. And will definitely be referenced in any guides on how to max level faster. But they don't make guides on what's fun, strange that.
In CoH I usually ran sewer teams in early levels because they were fun, and it was always an adventure to see how far you could go. One group we made it all the way to King's Row back when it wasn't a mini task force or whatever it had became (which was still awesome). Street sweeping, doing the starting missions for the umpteenth time was boring. So I chose the path of most fun. After that I'd just do radio missions pretty much forever. There's a period where they're the fastest XP (outside farming) you can get at early levels, with a good team and the difficulty raised. But I didn't do them for the XP, not primarily. I did them because they were fun and I got to tell my own story with my character rather than following a premade always static mission structure.
Yeah, some people will take the path of least resistance, if that's how they have fun let them. If you find a challenge fun then you'll do that because it's fun for you. Videogames are meant to be fun. If you're not having fun then you're playing the wrong game, or the wrong way.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
^This bears repeating.
All of it? Or just the subjective fun part?
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
The whole thread! Let's just build a quote pyramid to the moooooooon
That reminds me of probably my favorite Strongbad e-mail:
[youtube]dVQO4F9Vt9A[/youtube]
But in all seriousness, the part about fun being subjective. People game for different reasons and have their personal preferences, which is completely normal, and I don't envy MWM's job in creating content that tries to appeal to as many people as possible, but let's just keep in mind that just because you (the general you, not the specific you) don't find something particularly engaging or interesting doesn't mean that someone else doesn't and that it's relevance shouldn't be downplayed or assumed that someone else doesn't like it.
To the Moooooooon!
Which is why having options is nice.
Perhaps those who want a more cerebral clue based approach would be better served by having a detective/investigator path. That way a lot of missions could involve looking for clues.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
If variety is the spice of life ... does that mean that variety is the spice of fun in gaming?
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
When I pay for a game, [u]I am NOT paying to spend an hour looking for my mission door.[/u]
Just lead me to the door so I can have some fun.
KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.
The challenges are going to be a good deal more complex than in COH. I do not want to waste my time looking for a **** door.
[img]https://s15.postimg.cc/z9bk1znkb/Black_Falcon_Sig_in_Progess.jpg[/img]
Please quote whoever said that you should have to do that. If no one has been advocating FOR that outcome, then ...
[img]http://heritageaction.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Strawman.jpg[/img]
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
There are definitely ways of spicing up the traditional fedex delivery mission or the you-hit-a-dead-end--now-figure-out-where-to-go-next mission. We should use them; timers with actually important rush deliveries (e.g. organ transplant), midway change of plans where your contact gets assaulted and you decide to continue the delivery or save him instead, pickpocket or ambush that leads into a chase to recover the package, or have the whole courier deal be a set up so that instead of a safe endpoint you are captured and forced to blast out of the enemy HQ.
However, the key comes in two parts...not just how to spice it up, but how often to present such missions to the player at all. If the core of CoT gameplay is meant to be fun combat (and I believe it should be), then noncombat missions and combat missions with an objective to collect&deliver random drops should be used sparingly - on the order of 5% or 10%, not the 30% or more that I find in some MMOs now. I am tired of getting to new town XYZ and spending the next hour just talking to everyone and then figuring out which roof(s) their cat(s) got stuck on, then delivering their herbs/dented armor, then at last being asked to kill some orks...only to discover that apparently only about one in 10 orks (at random) have teeth, and never more than one per ork...and my contact wants 20 of them!...for some pointless reason, as usual.
Of course, I have no objection to clue-based assembly of such missions - where the player is given a choice to create a range of combat & noncombat missions (such that RNG can't saddle you with a string of noncombats), or a path devoted to a much greater % of noncombat missions. The crafting-clues-into-missions system sounds promising as described so far...which translates into me begging for more details / screenshots or video / examples when ready. Offering a way to reskin the clue crafting interface to fit our character's way of doing detective work is a very nice touch.
The not all the enemies have the item they totally should have multiple of thing bugs me. I don't remember what game it was but one MMO I played had you gain ruined versions of those items from enemies who didn't drop the quest item, ruined versions could be sold for some IGC. I think this is an interesting idea but it falls apart when you kill a spider for its legs and get only one ruined one. What about the other seven legs? Is my character such a dumbass that they intentionally ruin the stuff they need?
There's a lot of dumb standard MMO stuff that bothers me.
It would be neat on a fed ex quest to get ambushed and have the foe take the item from you, forcing you to chase him down to get it back before he gets to where he's going. If you fail now you need to deal with an instance full of goons to get that thing back. Could mix it up and have a mission require you to lose an item to track the foe to wherever they're taking the things.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
So, you are in favor of non tab targetting combat, akin to Blade & Soul, Wild Star, or Tera?
I like the sound of that. Using the Not-Batcomputer, divining the truth from magic, looking at a newspaper, calling a friend.
And of course, one from the master of video game logic: Thinking really hard!
https://youtu.be/i-D63BB73P0?t=36m45s
I've posted multiple times in multiple threads that I'm of the opinion that FORCING Tab Targeting as the one and only way to control target designation is a case of Premature Optimization. I would LOVE to be able to play City of Titans using my camera view (rather than a mouse cursor on screen) to designate targets via Reticle Hover and the Tab Lock To Target. Everything after that flows exactly the same. I want the alternative scheme to be an OPTION, rather than something mandated at the design level on the order of "it's this or nothing!"
Tab targeting took the form it did in [b][i]2004[/i][/b] because of the limitations of the gaming engines in use at the time (which started in the late 1990s and early 2000s).
Unreal Engine 4 doesn't operate under the same constraints.
Unreal Engine 4 is, at it's core, a "shooter game" engine, rather than a Tab To Target game engine.
You can make Unreal Engine 4 "work" in both modes for target designation. All you have to do is specify at the game mechanical level that a $Target needs to be locked onto (somehow) in order for Target Enemy/Target Ally Powers to activate (meaning, no designated $Target, no Power activation). After that, it's just a question of HOW do you "designate" a target for the game engine? Do you Tab-Tab-Tab until the one you want is selected? Do you point the center of your screen (with a "marker" on it) over the $Target you want and then hit Tab to designate THAT ONE to the game engine? Either method accomplishes the job of "informing" the game engine which $Target you want to designate ... but HOW the two designation methods work in terms of man-machine user interface are dramatically different in terms of gameplay and immersion.
The important thing is that since both schemes are essentially doing the same "job" ... both methods can work side-by-side in a case of Pick Your Preference, rather than being exclusionary in a way where if you do one you CAN'T do the other.
So in that respect, I'd want City of Titans to offer BOTH schemes, rather than just merely one or the other.
However, I really don't think this is the correct thread to be discussing this in. ^^;
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I think the problem there, would lie in PvP.
Those fighting like Tera, where you have to aim the camera and have your swing is in the right area VS tab target, can be looking the other way and still hit, would just have some people upset.
/em groan
WHY?
The game rules would be that you can only "do stuff" to something after you've $Target Locked onto it. The only difference is HOW you achieve that $Target Lock in the first place. Watch:
Pure Tab To Target Lock
[list=1][*]Desired $Target is somewhere on screen in camera view
[*]Repeatedly hit Tab until desired $Target is selected
[list][*][b]Tab[/b]
[*][b]Tab[/b]
[*][b]Tab[/b]
[*][b]Tab - [i]GOTCHA![/i][/b][/list]
[*]Activate Power to affect selected $Target [i]regardless of whether Locked On $Target remains on screen or not[/i][/list]
---
TargetEnemyNearest To Target Lock
[list=1][*]Desired $Target is somewhere on screen in camera view
[*]Hit keybind to select nearest enemy as $Target (in my case, I always used the ~/` key to the left of the !/1 key below the ESC key for this)
[list][*][b]TargetEnemyNearest - [i]GOTCHA![/i][/b][/list]
[*]Activate Power to affect selected $Target [i]regardless of whether Locked On $Target remains on screen or not[/i][/list]
---
Mouse Cursor Select To Target Lock
[list=1][*]Desired $Target is somewhere on screen in camera view
[*]Hover Mouse Cursor over desired $Target
[list][*][b]Hit keybind (default Left Click) to select $Target under Mouse Cursor - [i]GOTCHA![/i][/b][/list]
[*]Activate Power to affect selected $Target [i]regardless of whether Locked On $Target remains on screen or not[/i][/list]
---
Aim Camera to Target Lock
[list=1][*]Desired $Target is somewhere on screen in camera view
[*]Aim camera view to place Aimpoint Marker/Reticle near center of camera view "on" the desired $Target
[list][*][b]Tab (default keybind) - [i]GOTCHA![/i][/b][/list]
[*]Activate Power to affect selected $Target [i]regardless of whether Locked On $Target remains on screen or not[/i][/list]
---
Notice that in each and every single case, Step 1 is the same. Step 3 [b]is the same[/b]. The only difference is in the execution of Step 2, but however Step 2 is done, it has the exact same effect/result of informing the game engine what to affect in Step 3. Seriously ... it's one of these:
[img]http://www.powerframeworks.com/series/RB/011/rb011_0400_v3.jpg[/img]
Furthermore, it is perfectly possible and indeed desirable to specify that Step 3 [b]cannot be done[/b] without first completing Step 2 ... meaning there is no "free firing" of Powers that require a $Target be designated for them. That limitation (do Step 2 before moving on to Step 3) then prevents the game from turning into a First/Third Person Shooter, since Target Locks are required ... whether you're using Tab-Tab-Tab or using a TargetEnemyNearest keybind or doing Mouse Cursor Click Targeting or using an Aimpoint In Camera View plus Tab To Lock makes no difference to the [b]game engine[/b] since "all roads lead to Rome" in that respect. However, the variations in how Step 2 gets accomplished make a TREMENDOUS difference in how the game feels to "play" to the Player driving their keyboard and mouse setup. It's the difference between Outsourcing and Do It Yourself.
And here's the key thing. All FOUR of these control schemes have their niche uses that play to their strengths.
TargetEnemyNearest keybinds, combined with Follow commands are what make Scrapperlock possible, for example. If you have to take the time to find where your mouse cursor is on screen, move it over to what you want to affect, click on it and THEN take action, that's a lot of response time spent that could have been skipped over. Same deal with using Tab-Tab-Tab to select things. What if the first Tab picks something far away, rather than something close to me, and I'm a melee type? Battles get confusing, and the sequencing of which targets in what order can rapidly get confused relative to a Player's expectations. For melee combatants, you want $Target selection (and then sticking to them like glue to you don't fall out of melee range if they move) to be nearly instantaneous and you aren't necessarily going to want to be "picky" about what you need to $Target. First come, first served a knuckle sandwich is the order of the day ... and don't stop the music of the beatdown! Pauses between $Targets need to be minimal so that you can just grind them all down as fast (and as ruthlessly) as possible.
That changes when you get to Ranged archetypes who need to Pick And Choose their $Targets more carefully from a wider field of view than what's immediately in front of them or merely "whoever's closest" to you. Ranged archetypes need to be able to pick $Targets of opportunity out of a crowd (especially when there's a melee dogpile happening), and they need to be able to do it quickly, cleanly, and above all RELIABLY with a minimum of hassle and fuss. For some people that means use of Mouse Cursor and Click to designate $Targets to affect (either to harm or to aid), because for them that's easier/faster/more intuitive. For some people that means slewing the camera view around to put what you're interested in at the center of your screen and then $Target Lock On by keybind in order to designate what to affect (either to harm or to aid) because for them that method is easier/faster/more intuitive. It's the difference between moving an arrow on a desktop screen and using your eye movements to pick a $Target ... but either way, you're designating a $Target for your powers to affect. The only difference is to what degree the camera view is ... relevant ... to selecting a $Target within that camera view. Loose relevance is the Mouse Cursor Click method. Tight relevance is the Aimpoint Keybind method.
I'm still mildly gobsmacked that something this simple still requires (any) explanation (at all) for gamers steeped in MMOs and their various control schemes.
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[i]Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.[/i][/center]
I'll just be happy if I can set the game to prioritize friends or foes when I'm using click targetting.
It's annoying if everyone is in a pile and you want to click on an enemy and all you get are friends. Though that can be solved by being able to see and attack the for the friend has targetted either with or without removing your actual target from the friendly.
Maybe like if the ability you use can't be used on a friendly then it'll shoot at whatever the friendly has targeted if they have a foe targeted.
That'd make playing support less hassle. Target tank/favorite melee, buff tank, then use offensive powers while remaining targeted on tank.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."
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