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The Fighting Ca...
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Release Date: Mmosworld.com Article

https://www.mmosworld.com/city-of-titans-gets-a-2018-launch-date/

Is this for real? Will we all be playing in 10 months time?

If not someone better write these guys.

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Delays may still happen, but

Delays may still happen, but we are on target for that (if full release or early access depends on how well integration goes), yes.

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Best...year...ever.

Best...year...ever.

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The Fighting Canadian wrote:
The Fighting Canadian wrote:

Best...year...ever.

Shhhh! You'll jinx it!

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Note, I am hedging our bet by

Note, I am hedging our bet by leaving an early access option on the table. That way a delay will not shoot us in the foot.

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Early Access has been very

Early Access has been very productive and positive for a lot of games that I've played in The Early Access stage. The final product usually ends up being much better due to constructive feedback.

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I'm sure there are varying

I'm sure there are varying shades of "no" to this, but...

Does participating in an MMO early access guarantee any retention of progression? Like, character progress, names, badges, unlocked skins, etc.

I've never been in an MMO early access, just single-player games. I presume it might be something like an alpha or beta....? Wherein all progress gets wiped when the game officially launches. But, if it's like that, wouldn't it just be called "alpha" or "beta"? This MMO early access concept has me very befuddled. haha

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

I'm sure there are varying shades of "no" to this, but...

Does participating in an MMO early access guarantee any retention of progression? Like, character progress, names, badges, unlocked skins, etc.

I've never been in an MMO early access, just single-player games. I presume it might be something like an alpha or beta....? Wherein all progress gets wiped when the game officially launches. But, if it's like that, wouldn't it just be called "alpha" or "beta"? This MMO early access concept has me very befuddled. haha

Our goal is to have persistence for this, so badges, characters, etc, are preserved.

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

I'm sure there are varying shades of "no" to this, but...

Does participating in an MMO early access guarantee any retention of progression? Like, character progress, names, badges, unlocked skins, etc.

I've never been in an MMO early access, just single-player games. I presume it might be something like an alpha or beta....? Wherein all progress gets wiped when the game officially launches. But, if it's like that, wouldn't it just be called "alpha" or "beta"? This MMO early access concept has me very befuddled. haha

In most MMO early access/alpha/beta/etc all things get wiped before the game goes live (and usually several times during the alpha/beta) but also usually early access folks get some kind of reward when the game goes live. Special cosmetics, titles, or other goodies.

Note that this is just what, as far as I know, usually happens with any online game early access/alpha/beta.

Edit: Ninja'd by a Dev. They keep characters and badges and such, would they keep levels?

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

I'm sure there are varying shades of "no" to this, but...

Does participating in an MMO early access guarantee any retention of progression? Like, character progress, names, badges, unlocked skins, etc.

I've never been in an MMO early access, just single-player games. I presume it might be something like an alpha or beta....? Wherein all progress gets wiped when the game officially launches. But, if it's like that, wouldn't it just be called "alpha" or "beta"? This MMO early access concept has me very befuddled. haha

In most MMO early access/alpha/beta/etc all things get wiped before the game goes live (and usually several times during the alpha/beta) but also usually early access folks get some kind of reward when the game goes live. Special cosmetics, titles, or other goodies.

Note that this is just what, as far as I know, usually happens with any online game early access/alpha/beta.

Edit: Ninja'd by a Dev. They keep characters and badges and such, would they keep levels?

You picked up on that. One of the things which will need adjustment during EA is level progression, so levels might be reset.

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That still sounds pretty

That still sounds pretty awesome and reasonable. Not only do you not have to remake your character but you keep all the badges and unlocks.

If you really want to keep people playing you could implement a way to have players be able to reset back to level 1 with a small bonus. So theoretically someone could level indefinitely. Obviously these bonuses wouldn't be able to be used in most PvP situations.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

That still sounds pretty awesome and reasonable. Not only do you not have to remake your character but you keep all the badges and unlocks.

If you really want to keep people playing you could implement a way to have players be able to reset back to level 1 with a small bonus. So theoretically someone could level indefinitely. Obviously these bonuses wouldn't be able to be used in most PvP situations.

You want to start the Prestige type thing like in shooter games?

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I was thinking more of the

I was thinking more of the ascension levels in Dungeon Defenders 2, I have no idea how similar such things are. But in DD2 after you hit max level you gain small bonuses for leveling up beyond that. Hm, maybe this would be more like a new game plus in some RPGs.

I don't play many shooter games.

Granted I suppose this would make power creep a definite thing unless of course all high level "end game" things didn't let you use the additional power. But then I guess there wouldn't be much point to it other than to just have higher numbers in other things.

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If actual release can't

If actual release can't happen in 2018 for whatever reason, personally I'd much rather see a delay in release to 2019 rather than an Early Access that might require level resets. There's a whole thread out there where the general consensus was against Early Access, but of course that's up to MWM. I still think the negatives of Early Access far outweigh a delayed release date.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I don't play many shooter games.

I don't either, I've seen in videos people talking about it, where once you hit the level cap in the game like call of duty you reset levels. I just looked it up and this is what I found: "Prestiging in a Call of Duty game means to reach maximum level and then starting over in order to keep accumulating XP again. While the many unlocks you've gained along the way reset, there are exclusive rewards and some obvious distinction to say you have climbed the ranks to anyone you face online."
Found here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-11-24-cod-ww2-prestige-rewards-soldier-prestige-weapon-prestige-4839

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Please do EA and bring some

Please do EA and bring some integrity back to it. We need more people like MWM doing EA. You have my support.

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Ugh, let's not rehash the

Ugh, let's not rehash the Early Access discussion again, please.

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Ah. Then yeah, maybe a little

Ah. Then yeah, maybe a little like that. Depending on how small the bonuses are it could take forever for someone to start gaining any noticable increase. For Dungeon Defenders 2 for instance with ascension levels you can get a like .01 sec increase to the duration of one of your abilities once every three ascension levels.

So if say you got a very slight bonus to something (HP, damage, recharge) every time you reset it would take quite a while to build up any reasonable increase in power. Unless it was also paired with a very slight XP gain bonus.

And then having certain missions (and PvP types) not use those bonuses would help ensure that these players aren't steam rolling anything but normal content (which I realize could allow them to power level others).

And as to who would even bother when they're tiny bonuses which aren't even applicable for some of the content there are people who play certain games that have no other objective than to increase your numbers so you can increase your numbers faster or more efficiently.

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I do like the idea, it would

I do like the idea, it would create more "endgame" content. Or, I guess it would be more of a reason to keep playing the same character. If they could figure out possible rewards that would make it worth it I think it could work out really well. And this could provide more badge opportunities as well. Via "Ascend at max level 5 times" etc

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One of my favorite MMOs

One of my favorite MMOs currently, Elder Scrolls Online, has a phenomenal progression system in place once you reach the level cap. Level 50 is the level cap. Hard skills cannot be improved any further. However you can gain another 690 levels per se, these are called Champion levels.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Champion+System

This allows individual characters to be completely unique from other characters by the way they distribute their Champion points. Each increase is small, but for those who stick it out to the end of the cap, currently 690, can have a significant impact on character performance in both PVE and PVP.

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Kiyori Anoyui wrote:
Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

I do like the idea, it would create more "endgame" content. Or, I guess it would be more of a reason to keep playing the same character. If they could figure out possible rewards that would make it worth it I think it could work out really well. And this could provide more badge opportunities as well. Via "Ascend at max level 5 times" etc

And it'd give people the opportunity to try out other missions and such.

The trouble with it is to make it rewarding but not so rewarding that it creates a divide in the player base. "What, you haven't ascended 25 times!? Begone, peasant!" Which is which I think disabling the bonuses for certain missions would probably be ideal. Then you can play it regardless of any increased power.

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The Fighting Canadian wrote:
The Fighting Canadian wrote:

One of my favorite MMOs currently, Elder Scrolls Online, has a phenomenal progression system in place once you reach the level cap. Level 50 is the level cap. Hard skills cannot be improved any further. However you can gain another 690 levels per se, these are called Champion levels.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Champion+System

This allows individual characters to be completely unique from other characters by the way they distribute their Champion points. Each increase is small, but for those who stick it out to the end of the cap, currently 690, can have a significant impact on character performance in both PVE and PVP.

The trouble with that ends up being with new content. Do you scale it to level cap (thus making it insignificant to those with champion levels) or scale it with a certain champion level in mind (thus making it nigh impossible for those without)?

My thoughts would be having that additional power disabled for "end game" content and most PvP. But then it falls into the trouble of not being worth doing.

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Initial 'level cap' will be

Initial 'level cap' will be low, though, so I think it won't be that big a problem.

Perhaps, instead of calling it 'Early Access', it would be better to call this a 'Public Beta', with the clear implication that things will change from what is initially experienced and there might be Numerous 'level resets' involved. A reset might give a player a chance to test a new build or accept an existing, archived build from before the reset.

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
The Fighting Canadian wrote:

One of my favorite MMOs currently, Elder Scrolls Online, has a phenomenal progression system in place once you reach the level cap. Level 50 is the level cap. Hard skills cannot be improved any further. However you can gain another 690 levels per se, these are called Champion levels.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Champion+System

This allows individual characters to be completely unique from other characters by the way they distribute their Champion points. Each increase is small, but for those who stick it out to the end of the cap, currently 690, can have a significant impact on character performance in both PVE and PVP.

The trouble with that ends up being with new content. Do you scale it to level cap (thus making it insignificant to those with champion levels) or scale it with a certain champion level in mind (thus making it nigh impossible for those without)?

My thoughts would be having that additional power disabled for "end game" content and most PvP. But then it falls into the trouble of not being worth doing.

Seems to me a simple solution would be to have the ability to have missions be either run at lets call it Hero or Champion levels. And within those levels would be the mission difficulty toggles. Maximum flexibility. Allow you to chose your gameplay experience with some caveats. For example, if you have Champion points running a mission on Hero garners you NO rewards but allows you to help a friend with a tough mission or boss.

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Paragon levels?

Paragon levels?

And possibly. I just would think that for some content it'd be off entirely. So PvP doesn't become an arm's race and end game content isn't trivialized by those who did nothing but grind out levels.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Our goal is to have persistence for this, so badges, characters, etc, are preserved.

I'd like to hear the rationale for taking this approach.

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A very good question Planet10

A very good question Planet10. It has to do with how you earn costume pieces, either through in-game unlocks by collecting badges, or purchase through the cash shop. Nothing more frustrating to grind those 100,000 monkeys to unlock the super cool alien rifle to then have all that gone with a system wipe. As those who purchase could keep the costume options, it would be a major insult to the players who actually fought hard for those unlocks to lose them all while others do not.

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I think you should reset

I think you should reset instead when you leave the Early Access phase and enter an "Open Beta" stage (which must be close to release, weeks or few months away; not years of Open Beta... since that makes the game feel old already and you'll get an empty and useless "release" time to advertise).

Even in the case of a totally free to play and completely open Early Access (which is a case where the Early stage seems similar to an Open Beta phase), that's still like an Alpha since its purpose is to gather info and improve the game during a long time (not 3 days, like an Open Beta should be and were in the past). The early access doesn't make sense if you don't improve the game greatly during that time (because else you could directly release the game or choose a short time of mass-testing instead), which means the Early Access phase will result in a very different game compared to the "released" one.

Therefore if you keep the players badges, even just those (you can imagine the rest), it's like importing a badge from another game. Also the bugs you will resolve, the features you will change and adjust, everything will have an impact on overall difficulty etc., which is why there will be always a "more easy time" and a "more difficult time" between the two games ("early" and "release") which produces an unfair advantage for the old or the new players.

I understand that re-finding badges (and repeating everything else too) becomes a torture for the early-players, but the players should also get informed that's an Early access so they can freely decide if they want to spoiler themselves pre-release or not (and it's common knowledge already).

For all of that and more, the probabilities that you will need a full reset before Release are so high that you shouldn't promise something against those crushing odds, imho.

UPDATE: If you open up the shop and cash something, you cannot reset anymore of course.

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The rationale I'm not

The rationale I'm not understanding is the idea of Early Access instead of just waiting till the game is ready. If it's not ready to go by the end of 2018, so what? We'll all still be here in 2019, raring to go.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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A lot of the misunderstanding

A lot of the misunderstanding with Early Access is how it's been abused in recent years (Day Z I'm looking at you). Generally Early Access has been a "reward", usually for pre-ordering a game or expansion by a certain date. This would give the pre-orders access to the [i]finished game[/i] a week or two before the general masses. Open Beta is a [i]near release[/i] version of the game, generally reserved for stress testing servers on load and any bugs that result from it. While public, Open Beta was clearly still a test phase. The understanding was that database wipes were still in the cards if severe bugs were found during the Open Beta testing.

Generally testing looks like this:
> Alpha Test - Limited Access (Alpha Phase 1, 2, 3, etc.)
> Beta Test - Limited Access (Beta Phase 1, 2, 3, etc.)
> Open Beta - Public Access Test Phase
> Early Access - Limited Access Release
> Public Release

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Note, I am hedging our bet by leaving an early access option on the table. That way a delay will not shoot us in the foot.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

It has to do with how you earn costume pieces, either through in-game unlocks by collecting badges, or purchase through the cash shop. Nothing more frustrating to grind those 100,000 monkeys to unlock the super cool alien rifle to then have all that gone with a system wipe. As those who purchase could keep the costume options, it would be a major insult to the players who actually fought hard for those unlocks to lose them all while others do not.

So are you committing to some sort of open ended "Early Access" period to satisfy some goal MWM made year(s) ago?
I don't know all of the factors in play for MWM, but to me that seems somewhat risky. It might also be helpful if you defined what "Early Access" means to MWM since it has clearly lost its meaning over the years.

What is the projected length of this "Early Access" given that everything falls into place and nothing goes wrong?
What triggers the end of "Early Access" and the beginning of full/open public release? << I don't expect you to answer this one, I just hope there is a clear definition.

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Myri wrote:
Myri wrote:

A lot of the misunderstanding with Early Access is how it's been abused in recent years (Day Z I'm looking at you). Generally Early Access has been a "reward", usually for pre-ordering a game or expansion by a certain date. This would give the pre-orders access to the [i]finished game[/i] a week or two before the general masses. Open Beta is a [i]near release[/i] version of the game, generally reserved for stress testing servers on load and any bugs that result from it. While public, Open Beta was clearly still a test phase. The understanding was that database wipes were still in the cards if severe bugs were found during the Open Beta testing.

Good point. That's a definition of EA with which I could be happy. It doesn't sound like Doc is using that same definition of Early Access if MWM is expecting possible/probable resets, but I'm prepared to stand corrected. I'd just like to understand the thinking better.

Planet10 wrote:

So are you committing to some sort of open ended "Early Access" period to satisfy some goal MWM made year(s) ago?
I don't know all of the factors in play for MWM, but to me that seems somewhat risky. It might also be helpful if you defined what "Early Access" means to MWM since it has clearly lost its meaning over the years.

What is the projected length of this "Early Access" given that everything falls into place and nothing goes wrong?
What triggers the end of "Early Access" and the beginning of full/open public release? << I don't expect you to answer this one, I just hope there is a clear definition.

I think those are very good questions that might help clarify things if MWM does decide to go with Early Access.

I'd add one more: for those of us who received sub time with our Kickstarter donations, when would the subscription begin? Would our sub months get 'used up' on the EA instead of the actual release?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Quote:
Quote:

I'd add one more: for those of us who received sub time with our Kickstarter donations, when would the subscription begin? Would our sub months get 'used up' on the EA instead of the actual release?

This is an extremely important question right there. I would be fine with it either way but I could definitely see other people getting pretty upset over it. But if it is F2P in some form once you actually buy the "physical" game then maybe the sub at that point could just be Stars or whatever that you can use in the cash shop for the stuff that doesn't reset?

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For us it is when systems are

For us it is when systems are in a ready state (Beta-level or better) but the content is not complete, so, for instance, it might be just a handful of districts at first. No, it would not count for subscription time, but be the opportunity for feedback and final adjustments. Full release is when all 7 districts are in and ready.

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That doesn't sound too bad,

That doesn't sound too bad, but I'd still encourage MWM to wait till they think the game is ready and not feel any pressure from the calendar or from players.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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So, in this context the early

So, in this context the early access would be a beta test as opposed to the "headstart" from the Kickstarter?

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

So, in this context the early access would be a beta test as opposed to the "headstart" from the Kickstarter?

Correct. And I will note, we also listed early access to a "beta" build in the Kickstarter as well - the $10 tier.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

That doesn't sound too bad, but I'd still encourage MWM to wait till they think the game is ready and not feel any pressure from the calendar or from players.

It's a joy to read how many players are telling MWM to wait till they are ready, it is incredible. This is the maturity of the City of Heroes community that comes out.
Everywhere else you would read 99% of comments saying "I want the game tomorrow, because years have passed already!" and being serious about it. To ruin years of work for the last minute rushing would be such a waste.

Doctor Tyche wrote:

For us it is when systems are in a ready state (Beta-level or better) but the content is not complete, so, for instance, it might be just a handful of districts at first. No, it would not count for subscription time, but be the opportunity for feedback and final adjustments. Full release is when all 7 districts are in and ready.

This makes me feel better, thank you as usual for the info.

Myri wrote:

A lot of the misunderstanding with Early Access is how it's been abused in recent years (Day Z I'm looking at you). Generally Early Access has been a "reward", usually for pre-ordering a game or expansion by a certain date. This would give the pre-orders access to the [i]finished game[/i] a week or two before the general masses. Open Beta is a [i]near release[/i] version of the game, generally reserved for stress testing servers on load and any bugs that result from it. While public, Open Beta was clearly still a test phase. The understanding was that database wipes were still in the cards if severe bugs were found during the Open Beta testing.

Generally testing looks like this:
> Alpha Test - Limited Access (Alpha Phase 1, 2, 3, etc.)
> Beta Test - Limited Access (Beta Phase 1, 2, 3, etc.)
> Open Beta - Public Access Test Phase
> Early Access - Limited Access Release
> Public Release

You're perfectly right and it's the correct terms, but unfortunately the Early Access was not just abused by Dayz or a few games, but a huge majority, and for a very long time.
It has changed meaning due to hundreds of games on Steam, it's the entire "Steam's Early Access" (with few exceptions) that has changed it into an Alpha Stage of years of testing and unplayable state. The only thing closer to release that still gets a minimum of "final state" in it remains the Open Beta, but we should fight to put the correct terms back where they belong.

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It's a shame terminology has

It's a shame terminology has been so muddied that each development phase can have several different meanings. As long as MWM is clear on their expectations, there shouldn't be any problems with player sentiment during each phase of the test/release process.

Getting back to release dates. With a proposed beta test phase in the fall of 2018, I will be pleasantly surprised if we see a final release any sooner than mid 2019.

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Myri wrote:
Myri wrote:

It's a shame terminology has been so muddied that each development phase can have several different meanings. As long as MWM is clear on their expectations, there shouldn't be any problems with player sentiment during each phase of the test/release process.

Getting back to release dates. With a proposed beta test phase in the fall of 2018, I will be pleasantly surprised if we see a final release any sooner than mid 2019.

Right now the advertised full release date, not beta, early access etc. Is Fall 2018, so if anything, as long as they stay on schedule, which the dev stated they are thus far, a beta would need to happen at the end of summer to prepare for a fall launch.

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Now that you say that, I seem

Now that you say that, I seem to remember the Fall 2018 beta being a worst case scenario. Although to hit a Fall 2018 release, I would have to assume beta test phases are ongoing now. That and all integration would have to be almost flawless. Due to most of the beta testing I've been part of in the past, I find this type of schedule very unlikely.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Delays may still happen, but we are on target for that (if full release or early access depends on how well integration goes), yes.

According to the devs there on track.

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The Fighting Canadian wrote:
The Fighting Canadian wrote:

https://www.mmosworld.com/city-of-titans-gets-a-2018-launch-date/

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That article looks like it

That article looks like it was posted like 2 years ago and it says they haven't had contact with the devs, so I don't know how much stock you can put in that article, I would rather wait to hear it from the Devs on where we stand date-wise

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

The rationale I'm not understanding is the idea of Early Access instead of just waiting till the game is ready. If it's not ready to go by the end of 2018, so what? We'll all still be here in 2019, raring to go.

https://www.polygon.com/2015/6/25/8847597/steam-summer-sale-data-steamspy-2015

"The big winner is clearly Ark: Survival Evolved, which raked in more than $10 million in revenue. Considering they're a small indie team of around 40 people, that's a big payday. As far as raw units go, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive moved just hair under 830,000 units, which brought it the second-highest revenue number at nearly $6.2 million."

I believe Steam get s a piece of that, like 30% of something like that, but nonetheless, for a small team to make a couple million while developing the game? Nice.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

The rationale I'm not understanding is the idea of Early Access instead of just waiting till the game is ready. If it's not ready to go by the end of 2018, so what? We'll all still be here in 2019, raring to go.

https://www.polygon.com/2015/6/25/8847597/steam-summer-sale-data-steamspy-2015

"The big winner is clearly Ark: Survival Evolved, which raked in more than $10 million in revenue. Considering they're a small indie team of around 40 people, that's a big payday. As far as raw units go, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive moved just hair under 830,000 units, which brought it the second-highest revenue number at nearly $6.2 million."

I believe Steam get s a piece of that, like 30% of something like that, but nonetheless, for a small team to make a couple million while developing the game? Nice.

Indeed. Right now it's a personnel crunch which causes our biggest holdups. Those with the skills needed are those in demand for paying gigs. Much harder for us to retain them. Even a small sale would cut a lot of time not only for release, but for the first several post-launch updates.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Right now it's a personnel crunch which causes our biggest holdups. Those with the skills needed are those in demand for paying gigs. Much harder for us to retain them. Even a small sale would cut a lot of time not only for release, but for the first several post-launch updates.

Ah, I see. So it's not external pressure so much as internal pressure. While I'd still prefer a flat out real Go Live, I can understand the thinking better now. Thanks.

Now stop posting on the forums and get back to packing! :-) (I'd help if I weren't half a world away.)

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

Indeed. Right now it's a personnel crunch which causes our biggest holdups. Those with the skills needed are those in demand for paying gigs. Much harder for us to retain them. Even a small sale would cut a lot of time not only for release, but for the first several post-launch updates.

Does the second chance could be a way to take a part of the amount to do that instead of having full time job people ? (just for what is most missing i mean). But, a great part of the second chance rising should, to my opinion, be used to have full time job people who were there from the beginning and give a lot of their time for CoT first (even quit their previous job to be 10% on CoT ^^)

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Myri wrote:
Myri wrote:

Now that you say that, I seem to remember the Fall 2018 beta being a worst case scenario. Although to hit a Fall 2018 release, I would have to assume beta test phases are ongoing now. That and all integration would have to be almost flawless. Due to most of the beta testing I've been part of in the past, I find this type of schedule very unlikely.

If you did not see it elsewhere on the forum, we have a "must be ready by" date in order to hit our target. The character creator integration has been far more trouble than we anticipated. If it cannot be resolved by March, we will need to push back our dates.

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Myri wrote:

Now that you say that, I seem to remember the Fall 2018 beta being a worst case scenario. Although to hit a Fall 2018 release, I would have to assume beta test phases are ongoing now. That and all integration would have to be almost flawless. Due to most of the beta testing I've been part of in the past, I find this type of schedule very unlikely.

If you did not see it elsewhere on the forum, we have a "must be ready by" date in order to hit our target. The character creator integration has been far more trouble than we anticipated. If it cannot be resolved by March, we will need to push back our dates.

So, yeah. It's been a few months of that now right? What exactly is going on? Is it a coding problem?

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ThunderCAP wrote:
ThunderCAP wrote:

It's a joy to read how many players are telling MWM to wait till they are ready, it is incredible. This is the maturity of the City of Heroes community that comes out.
Everywhere else you would read 99% of comments saying "I want the game tomorrow, because years have passed already!" and being serious about it. To ruin years of work for the last minute rushing would be such a waste.

I [b]DO[/b] want the game tomorrow, or better yet yesterday, but I'm willing to wait till MWM thinks it's ready.
Beats having a half-finished piece of crap that shuts down after two months because no one is playing it.

Kiyori Anoyui wrote:

That article looks like it was posted like 2 years ago and it says they haven't had contact with the devs, so I don't know how much stock you can put in that article, I would rather wait to hear it from the Devs on where we stand date-wise

You mean, like this?

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Delays may still happen, but we are on target for that (if full release or early access depends on how well integration goes), yes.

=P
----

Doctor Tyche wrote:

Indeed. Right now it's a personnel crunch which causes our biggest holdups. Those with the skills needed are those in demand for paying gigs. Much harder for us to retain them. Even a small sale would cut a lot of time not only for release, but for the first several post-launch updates.

If only there was a way to bring in more money... like that second chance crowd fund thing you guys (and gals) keep teasing us about (btw. it better accept Paypal ...stupid credit card only Kickstarter *grumble*).

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*foaming at mouth*

*foaming at mouth*

So... Much... Excitement!

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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:
Myri wrote:

Now that you say that, I seem to remember the Fall 2018 beta being a worst case scenario. Although to hit a Fall 2018 release, I would have to assume beta test phases are ongoing now. That and all integration would have to be almost flawless. Due to most of the beta testing I've been part of in the past, I find this type of schedule very unlikely.

If you did not see it elsewhere on the forum, we have a "must be ready by" date in order to hit our target. The character creator integration has been far more trouble than we anticipated. If it cannot be resolved by March, we will need to push back our dates.

So, yeah. It's been a few months of that now right? What exactly is going on? Is it a coding problem?

As mentioned before, we've developed sections of the game independently, with the design to later integrate them. The advantage here is that we can do most of the debugging before integration, when it's much harder to isolate the cause of issues. This goes well usually, but when something will not integrate well, it gums everything else up. In this case, the character creator exposed an issue within the main game which was not triggered until the CC was integrated. That then requires backing out, fixing the issue, then redoing the integration. Add to it a reduction in coder availability due to real life issues, it's taking longer than planned.

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But if it compiles it's done,

But if it compiles it's done, right? I kid you not: I once worked with a programmer (and I use the term loosely) who believed that.

Nos482 wrote:

If only there was a way to bring in more money... like that second chance crowd fund thing you guys (and gals) keep teasing us about (btw. it better accept Paypal ...stupid credit card only Kickstarter *grumble*).

That's an interesting point. Is the decision on whether CoT goes Early Access based on the results of the Second Chance? I.e. if the Second Chance brings in enough, maybe you can go with a standard release?

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

But if it compiles it's done, right? I kid you not: I once worked with a programmer (and I use the term loosely) who believed that.

Nos482 wrote:

If only there was a way to bring in more money... like that second chance crowd fund thing you guys (and gals) keep teasing us about (btw. it better accept Paypal ...stupid credit card only Kickstarter *grumble*).

That's an interesting point. Is the decision on whether CoT goes Early Access based on the results of the Second Chance? I.e. if the Second Chance brings in enough, maybe you can go with a standard release?

Not to say you're right, but you're in the ballpark.

Ultimately what we want to avoid is the classic "Pre Order Bundle" game. We want there to be *something* there for folk to have right away. Originally we were going to go with the CC as it's own thing, but the delays on that front resulted in the rest of the gameplay systems being ready before it was.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

But if it compiles it's done, right? I kid you not: I once worked with a programmer (and I use the term loosely) who believed that.

From one point of view, yes. From another point of view, fuck no.

Heh, read a number of stories about such people on [url=http://thedailywtf.com/]TDWTF[/url] and those always scare me.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

But if it compiles it's done, right? I kid you not: I once worked with a programmer (and I use the term loosely) who believed that.

From one point of view, yes. From another point of view, fuck no.

Depending on what you're talking about "getting something to compile" is almost literally the [b]FIRST[/b] step in software development, not the last. I'll bet MWM had major portions of CoT that were "compilable" 2 or 3 years ago but that certainly didn't mean they were anywhere near being "done" working on the overall game.

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First compile was, er.....

First compile was, er..... (checks) March '14

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Sounds about right. You can

Sounds about right. You can imagine how we all reacted when our colleague thought her job was done upon compile.

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From the linked article:

From the linked article:
"City of Titans will be released in Fall 2018 which is almost 2 years away"

Fall 2018 is less than 1 year away. This tells me one of two things:

1. The article was originally written a year ago.
2. They typoed the year number -- it's really supposed to read "Fall 2019" and it IS almost 2 years from now.

Which is it? I predict that it doesn't matter what the article says or when it was written. I say this because I expect there will be setbacks and the full release of the game wont happen until like late 2020 regardless.

A question: not that I know anyone, but would it be against the volunteer nature of the project to bring in a hotshot mercenary code writer/debugger to see you through to the point where the thing actually works, or is that not possible? I'm a little ambivalent on that idea anyway. I can't decide which is better, a pro programmer that's being paid to do a job, or a volunteer that believes in the project and wants it to be great. It's like "do I work on the house myself and fix the drywall, or do I hire a contractor to do it for me?" With the contractor you need to demand quality from the person you hire, and they are only being paid to "fix it now so that it works now" not "fix it so good that the next guy can figure it out quickly, and easily upgrade it later". The DIY option leaves you at the mercy of how much skill and free time the volunteer has, though their heart may be in the right place.

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We actually have that in mind

We actually have that in mind, but not until everything is integrated. Before then, too much temptation for someone to jump in and create their own solution that no longer follows the goal. (Have had that happen before with overeager volunteers)

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

From the linked article:
"City of Titans will be released in Fall 2018 which is almost 2 years away"

Fall 2018 is less than 1 year away. This tells me one of two things:

1. The article was originally written a year ago.
2. They typoed the year number -- it's really supposed to read "Fall 2019" and it IS almost 2 years from now.

Which is it? I predict that it doesn't matter what the article says or when it was written. I say this because I expect there will be setbacks and the full release of the game wont happen until like late 2020 regardless.

I'm not so much worried about when CoT is "fully done" because as we all know games like this are never "fully done". After 8.5 years the Devs of CoH were still adding new features/content to the game.

I'm more concerned about when CoT is going to be "good enough for initial launch". If the Devs still currently think they'll reach that point by the end of 2018 then that'll be fine. If that slips 3 or 6 months that'll still be fine. But no matter when the "initial launch" happens the Devs will continue to add new features and fix bugs long after that point. If an individual player doesn't really consider the game to be "finished" by 2019, 2020 or beyond that'll mostly be his or her opinion, again regardless of whatever the Devs have managed to achieve by those dates.

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By "Fully done" I meant "they

By "Fully done" I meant "they're taking people's money in the form of game purchases and you can log on and play the game now", not alpha, not open beta, not closed beta, what I said.

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Just based on the forum

Just based on the forum updates, some personal, from the devs of the challenges, setbacks, issues, etc, etc, etc., as well as problems with integration and organizational issues between paid/volunteer services, I'd be surprised if there is any kind of release before Dec 2019. As they've said, they aren't a team like Ship of Heroes that has a full-time team dedicated to the game. It's just going to take longer I imagine.

Don't get me wrong...I hope more than anyone I am wrong. I can't wait to donate in the Second Chance and contribute to the game. But all the issues that they've told us about lately, and surely the ones they haven't, I doubt we'll get a 2018 release.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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I have no doubts that MWM's

I have no doubts that MWM's prediction for a "fall 2018" release could be delayed for all sorts of reasons. I'm certainly not naïve enough to expect that a game company's announcements for things they plan to have happen that far in advance will be 100% certain.

But I honestly don't think MWM would be stupid enough to even be hinting at a "fall 2018" release if the reality was more like 2020 or beyond. Obviously time will tell but I feel that if MWM gets to a point where they know that even a "summer 2019" release would be questionable we'll know about that sometime in the next six months. I just don't think the folks at MWM are the kind of people who would start predicting [b]any[/b] kind of date without a vaguely reasonable chance for it happening. Them being wrong by 3 or 6 months is one thing, being wrong by a factor of -years- just doesn't seem plausible at this point.

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We will know by March if the

We will know by March if the schedule for this year is tenable or not.

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^^ Yes, I believe the good

^^ Yes, I believe the good Doctor has mentioned March before. I'm willing to be patient. It's hard to get anything done when you're moving. It's a good thing the project is online, it would be tragic for half of it to get lost in a box, mid-move.

I'm not worried.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We will know by March if the schedule for this year is tenable or not.

Early or late in March ? (no, i'm not impatient at all, you are hallucinating xD)

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Ides of March, let's go all

Ides of March, let's go all Shakespearian here!

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lol ! ok, 2 months before my

lol ! ok, 2 months before my birthday ! Nice gift :D Thanks Dr.

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TitansCity hath a lean and

TitansCity hath a lean and hungry look about him; such gamers are dangerous. ^_^

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Of course i am xD

Of course i am xD
or maybe not…
Stop it Jekyll !

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Just over a few fortnights

Just [url=http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+many+days+until+March+15th]over a few fortnights[/url] until we reach those ides.

Wolfgang8565
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Doctor Tyche wrote:
Doctor Tyche wrote:

We will know by March if the schedule for this year is tenable or not.

That would be the best bday present for me in march to know that the goal will be met.

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[color=#FF0000]Graphic Designer[/color]

MeSoSollyWan
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I would personally hope that

I would personally hope that it doesn't take another 55 days (counting weekends) or so for MWM to iron out this wrinkle. I sincerely hope that this is something, since they've been working on it for a few months, that they can fix in the next few weeks.

Setting internal deadlines is fantastic, and can up productivity, but since this has been an ongoing "gumming" issue I really hope that the mindset is less "we have until Mid-March" and more "how can we fix it sooner than that?"

Just my thoughts. I want to pay this game, dangit! haha

Tannim222
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MeSoSollyWan wrote:
MeSoSollyWan wrote:

Just my thoughts. I want to pay this game, dangit! haha

So do we. I ache for the days when I move beyond spread sheets and simulations to full, in-game experience (which will inevitably result in heading back to said spread sheets and simatuons) but still, ro experience the [i]feel of the action[/i]...

Why doesn’t my crowbar come with a fast-foward time button?

[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]

Kiyori Anoyui
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Why doesn’t my crowbar come with a fast-foward time button?

Obviously your future self hasn't perfected the time machine yet in order to come back and teach you the way to get the forever out of reach fast forwarding crowbar. It will be mine.... oh yes, it will be mine..... :3

The Carnival of Light in the Phoenix Rising
"We never lose our demons, we only learn to live above them." - The Ancient One

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Lin Chiao Feng
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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

would it be against the volunteer nature of the project to bring in a hotshot mercenary code writer/debugger to see you through to the point where the thing actually works, or is that not possible?

There's an old saying in software development: "adding developers to a late project tends to make it later."

And IMHO it's risky to bring in a development team that isn't likely to stay around. It encourages a lot of nasty antipatterns that make things harder to maintain, because the devs doing it know they won't be around when it breaks.

So anyone we add we'll want to keep if possible.

[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]