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Not all superheroes have powers

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jtpaull
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Not all superheroes have powers

Not all superheroes have powers if you consider icons like Batman and Tony Stark, as long as you don't consider their money or brains a superpower. Eventually, perhaps years down the road, a ranged, and/or melee, power set where you have no superpowers but your intellectually capable like the aforementioned and can build things...like an Ironman suit. I think that would be legit. Yes, there's a million problems with the idea...like how to diversify your powers within that limited scope, narrow/limited selection of travel powers, and the fact that the devs would have to create the animations that would probably be copy/paste for each character, unless they created a system where, as you destroyed certain types of enemies (like robots) and could loot their physical corpse, or steal tech from other enemies, to get different pieces. A UI to manually create bigger/better gear would be extremely difficult but SO WORTH IT. I've thought about this a lot...as you level you slowly accumulate more tech to build things with, that you could customize (like how Ironman can shoot with his hands and chest and has boosters to fly or a unique UI that comes over the screen to simulate a mask). The more tech you get, the better your 'suit' looks. So a level 5 might have the equivalent of a armored suit that is just a few metal bars and support rods that gives him increased melee strength or something, eventually becoming a full on suit, going from melee to ranged, and advanced travel powers. I am sure this is too ambitious for MWM, maybe if they had the financial backing of Blizzard...but I would pay $$$. Big $$$. Le sigh.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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This sounds a lot like

This sounds a lot like background story and costume upgrades. Why could I not design a character with a 'super-suit' that allows him to do whatever the hero does and roleplay that, inside the suit, he's just a skinny genius? Then, you know, as he levels up, he gets new powers... Maybe I tweak the costume a bit, so it looks cooler...

Or, maybe I design a character who's a trench-coated gumshoe with a big gun?

I actually had the 'Fat D&D Nerd with Secret Serum to Transform into Awesome Scary Guy' character.

I don't mean to denigrate your concept, here, but I don't see it as something that needs its own system/mechanics in the game. Just write up your justifications for 'not being super' and put them in the background.

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Give 'em a good ole' MA/SR ;)

Give 'em a good ole' MA/SR ;) for Batman

Tony is a little harder: first costume in a suit with maybe a pistol or wrist guns, second costume in full suit.

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So super preparation and

So super preparation and super intelligence aren't super powers now?

Granted Batman isn't considered a super powered character in his universe, but come on. He's mastered a ton of martial arts, a ton of sciences, he's a master detective, (in most) he makes his own gadgets... And he did all that in... Under 20 years? I'd argue he's -more- super powered than most.

And Tony Stark is a straight up Super Genius. In the ultimate version every cell of his body doubles as a brain cell.

But anyway. Yeah, doesn't need it's own system or mechanics. Just skin your powers to be martial arts, or a ray gun, or anything gadget-y really.

Should have went with heroes like The Question, or Rorschach, or something. Just guys in masks.

But yeah, what you seem to be describing is the age old RP to explain away abilities. I had an archer in CoX who I gave Hover and Flight to when I got the Jet Boots for him. You don't need an entire set of mechanics for something like this.

Though. A (completely seperate) video game where you start out as a normal(ish) guy and need to scrounge and scrape and craft to gain (essentially) powers? I'd play that.

Edit: Also Tony Stark wasn't a super hero until he was Iron Man. So, had the suit when crime fighting started. So Tony might be a bad example for this.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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They're geniuses. No, that

They're geniuses. No, that doesn't generally count as a super ability, unless it's something meta making them super intelligent.

Though, I'd argue Batman isn't a genius, because he's made his own version of the Iron Man suit plenty of times, but never seems to think to use it to fight crime in Gotham? Maybe they just need to get with the times and give Batman the Batman Beyond suit, if they want to continue to say he can totally be equal to all those super powered heroes.

Now, that isn't to say he couldn't beat some of them. Some of them have meta abilities but are on the lower end of things. Also, the big guns could never be everywhere at once. Hell one of the big guns is supposed to be guarding the galaxy, so that means more than Earth. :p

Though, I'm trying to think. Is Tony really a crime fighter? He fights some big threats for sure, but it tends to be Spider-Man, Dare Devil who seem to deal with the crime fighting, while Tony is busy with his business and bigger all world encompassing affairs.

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It really depends on how you

It really depends on how you define super genius. To which I'd probably define it in comic books as the ability to develop and build devices that bend or break the known laws of physics, or are at least something far greater than what can be built in our own world. Like the Iron Man suit, Batman's various batarangs and gadgets and the like.

If Batman was really smart he'd fight poverty which is a huge contributing factor to crime. And help fund the police force (help it crack down on corruption), and maybe run for an office of some kind. Batman did police Gotham with an army of robots turning Gotham into effectively a police state in Kingdom Come. But this isn't about the methods.

Reed Richards is a super genius and he has nothing meta to aid that. He builds teleporters and pocket dimensions and all sorts of stuff. The cosmic rays just gave him stretchy powers.

I think Tony would stop a crime committed by a meta criminal, else he'd probably just call the cops. But yes, he's not really a street-level hero.

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My intention is for my

My intention is for my primary character to be a non-super. The background being Special Forces thus why the might have far more experience and training to deal with super's and neutralise them, but for all intents and purposes he is meant to be straight up human.

You don't need a suit to be a super, you don't need powers. All you need is some form of weapon and half a brain don't fight what you can't hurt.

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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Deathwatch101 wrote:

My intention is for my primary character to be a non-super. The background being Special Forces thus why the might have far more experience and training to deal with super's and neutralise them, but for all intents and purposes he is meant to be straight up human.
You don't need a suit to be a super, you don't need powers. All you need is some form of weapon and half a brain don't fight what you can't hurt.

Most metas aren't bullet-proof. It's just hitting them that might be a problem.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
My intention is for my primary character to be a non-super. The background being Special Forces thus why the might have far more experience and training to deal with super's and neutralise them, but for all intents and purposes he is meant to be straight up human.
You don't need a suit to be a super, you don't need powers. All you need is some form of weapon and half a brain don't fight what you can't hurt.
Most metas aren't bullet-proof. It's just hitting them that might be a problem.

Yea but you have to remember in a game - most things aren't going to have plot armour.

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Yep, I was going to make a

Yep, I was going to make a mention of plot armor.

Most metas can be taken down with the right amount of planning. Though I can't think of any examples of this in comics that aren't dumb or absurd.

Which does translate into a game. If you're built right or have a good plan you can punch above your weight class (which then becomes anticlimactic when you realize you only got like 1xp for beating a badguy that, by your level, you shouldn't be able to take. That's happened to me before.)

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Deathwatch101 wrote:
My intention is for my primary character to be a non-super. The background being Special Forces thus why the might have far more experience and training to deal with super's and neutralise them, but for all intents and purposes he is meant to be straight up human.
You don't need a suit to be a super, you don't need powers. All you need is some form of weapon and half a brain don't fight what you can't hurt.
Most metas aren't bullet-proof. It's just hitting them that might be a problem.

Most also don't have a healing factor good enough to keep up with bullet holes.

Though they almost all tend to have slight regeneration to recover faster than normal humans (don't want to keep hero and villains down to long).

Comes down to, who's the meta and are they really that strong versus others? Some are, some are just basically fancy guns. All tending to be peak durability so they can take those punches.

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jtpaull wrote:Eventually,
jtpaull wrote:

Eventually, perhaps years down the road, a ranged, and/or melee, power set where you have no superpowers but your intellectually capable like the aforementioned and can build things...like an Ironman suit.

I'm not totally against this idea but it does seem like it might be a huge effort just to implement a very narrowly-defined Tony Stark simulator. Having an armored suit isn't the only way a non-superpowered person could gain "capabilities" that could mimic superpowers.

I'd have to agree with others when they say that a combination of good costumes and RP can help "explain" just about any way a character can have/use powers whether those powers are internal to the character, based on outside technology, or anything in-between. For example maybe you have somebody who found/stole a magic wand that let's them do all sorts of special things. That character could easily be just a "normal human" otherwise.

If MWM could figure out a way to make a character class that would let an initially non-powered person generically "create" powers as part of playing the game based on anything (magic, mutation, tech, etc.) that might be cool but it would also obviously be pretty hard to implement.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Naaaahhhhhh!! Super smarts is

Naaaahhhhhh!! Super smarts is a superpower!

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Putting in my two stars: I

Putting in my two stars: I have to say that it's better for leave the origin for superpowers to be abstract, and better explain through backstory / costume. You can explain that Tony Sparks electrical blast comes from his power suit, rather than a mutant and leave it at that. The technology upgrade can also be abstracted from the generic salvage drop and crafting system that might be put in place. It's just more trouble than it's worth to have a sub-system for technology heroes. Otherwise, why not have a sub-system for heroes who just use magical relics, or who bombard themselves with space rays.

Regarding, Batman's super intelligence. Sometimes, in my head-canon, I would actually peg him as being slightly meta-human; it's just very subtle (as opposed to someone like the Flash, who an obvious meta-power). I use this explanation not because of his ability to build gadgets - but to explain why he's the 'best at everything' and has superior-dedication that some writers seem to elevate him to. I think that's more when he's being written as a mary sue. When he's written as a human being, with limitations and sometimes faulty judgement, then I guess he doesn't need to be elevated as being meta-human.

However, Batman does have another super power.

jtpaull
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To everyone's credit I think

To everyone's credit I think the general consensus is that one would be better suited to create the backstory and aesthetics to go with it to get to what my original post was talking about. I agree...for this game. Thinking about it more I think that it doesn't really match the style or function of this game. I'd still love to try it out, though.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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Keep in mind that if you came

Keep in mind that if you came up against a super they would more than likely kill you in standard combat fashion without thinking about having to pull their punches. Look at Batman in the latest Justice League movie. In the back of my mind I accept that Bruce Wayne is a normal human and suffers from all the common frailties. When he gets tossed around like a ragdoll my brain said "yeah, his bones or organs are now jelly". But in comic book form he just bounces back up and does the standard "ugh, that hurt" grunt and holds the owie for a moment.

In CoH a friend and I created a normal unpowered characters and we leveled up together. We had to treat all encounters as potentially deadly. We had to assess our odds and find an escape route if things went poorly. It was lots of fun. Punch, Sprint, Rest & Sands of Mu plus a couple other non super powers as we leveled up (Leadership pool iirc).

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A friend of mine had a

A friend of mine had a character called "Teenage Boy" who was just a normal teenager who decided to fight crime. His super reflexes was RP'd as frantic panicked dodging and just getting lucky to not be shot.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Keep in mind that if you came up against a super they would more than likely kill you in standard combat fashion without thinking about having to pull their punches. Look at Batman in the latest Justice League movie. In the back of my mind I accept that Bruce Wayne is a normal human and suffers from all the common frailties. When he gets tossed around like a ragdoll my brain said "yeah, his bones or organs are now jelly". But in comic book form he just bounces back up and does the standard "ugh, that hurt" grunt and holds the owie for a moment.
In CoH a friend and I created a normal unpowered characters and we leveled up together. We had to treat all encounters as potentially deadly. We had to assess our odds and find an escape route if things went poorly. It was lots of fun. Punch, Sprint, Rest & Sands of Mu plus a couple other non super powers as we leveled up (Leadership pool iirc).

That sounds like it could have easily been Martial Arts (or Street Justice or any weapon set really) and SR.

Dual Pistols (Archery or AR) and Traps could work too.

The only time those concept didn't work was in open community RP (and even closed group RP of metas too :p), but gameplay wise and small group, there's no reason not to go with it.

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There are no non-metas in

There are no non-metas in comics, is what I think.

1: Physical overload: The human body can only take so much punishment, but people who keep getting shot up, stabbed, broken, slammed through walls, etc, just keep getting back up and running at Olympic speeds. This includes not just batman, but also the punisher, the dc bow guy and the marvel bow guy, the various ninjas/assassins, etc. Sure, someone like that could exist, but they wouldn't still be doing the job at 100% after multiple severe trauma injuries.

2: Super-powered equipment = super-powers. This isn't just super-suits. For example, batman has a perpetual motion machine, which I'd argue is a super-power. He pushes the button on his grapple, which releases the tension and fires it with enough force to punch into stone, then he pressed the button, which releases the tension with enough force to pull him up, then he presses the button, which releases the tension, and so on. Even his little fits-in-the-palm version is like this. Stark's armor would result in his internal organs being liquefied even if he doesn't fight anyone, just by some of the quick aerial maneuvers he does. Most "Non-powered" heroes have something like that going on... equipment that ignores the laws of physics outright even though it's not supposed to be magical or alien.

3: Skill overload: If we take it that Batman's a master of all sciences (which are continually evolving and have to be kept up with), all forensics (ditto), all martial arts ever on earth (which you have to practice each and every one regularly to maintain mastery), all forms of piloting (including alien space craft with unknown control schemes and an unreadable language, yes he did this and he didn't even mess around with it for a second first), all forms of engineering, all forms of information-gathering, multiple languages (whichever is plot convenient), etc, etc. With perfect eidetic memory, it would still take about 40 hours a day to keep up with all those skills. So yeah, Batman's a meta. If they didn't want me to assume he was a meta, they shouldn't have written him as a meta. Most non-powered heroes aren't quite as silly as bats, but you get the idea.

If we try to be as realistic as possible with super-powers in play... Realistically, a non-powered person would not be able to fight a powered person, because realistically, there's no balancing scale. What I mean by this is, just because you're not powered and the other guy is, doesn't mean the other guy hasn't trained just as hard as you and developed just as many skills as you. We're used to things balancing out in games, like if you have more power it means you have less skill, but that's not how things work. You take two comparably skilled people with comparable willpower, intelligence, and gear, but one is powered and the other isn't, I'm sorry, the non-powered guy is going to lose 999 times out of 1000. This is why competitive sports like boxing and wrestling have different weight classes. If two people have the same skill level and speed, but one hits three times harder and can take twice as many hits simply due to their size, that one's going to win.

So the only way to represent this in a game is to have multiple power levels and different missions and stories for each. Non-powered people get sent on covert missions or missions with large numbers of people. Cosmic powered people get sent only on cosmic missions because they'd cause too much collateral damage on a regular mission. Then fill the middle with the middling power levels and appropriate missions. However, while this would more accurately represent a world with both powered and non-powered heroes, it would make the game very tedious as you'd only be able to experience one tiny sliver of it per character. Plus, there'd need to be about five different pvp power levels so the consummate soldier with a chip on his shoulder doesn't get ground into thin paste by the consummate soldier with invulnerability and super-strength.

This is a case where realism has to take a back seat to gameplay, because the alternative is an over-complicated mess.

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All this talk made me think

All this talk made me think on how I'm still waiting for them to reveal Black Widow has a version of the Super Soldier Serum in her. :p

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Honestly, I compare Batman

Honestly, I compare Batman and the like to Exalted. They're not on the level of bullshit a high-grade Exalt can pull off (because that's getting into the realm of "I block the mountain range flying at me with my sword", or being so good at archery you can shoot water, justice, love, racist abuse, or anything smaller than a human arm (including animals) at a target), but the scariest part of the way that Exalted work has always, to me, been their capacity for learning. I read a fanfiction that brought this thing to the fore a little while ago and described it better than I ever could, so let me grab a quote:

Quote:

The reason for all this was perhaps the scariest of the basic Exalt “perks”, Favored and Caste Abilities. Abilities in this instance covered all the mundane activities a person could engage in, from sailing boats to forging swords. If the ability in question was favored or Caste, then they did not have a training time.

The scary part was that this was not because they downloaded the knowledge or something like that, no instead the Exalted could rediscover an entire field of knowledge from the ground up in less than a day. An illiterate barbarian could derive the entire modern system of mathematics, coming to equal someone with years of education in hours. This wasn’t a result of cheating or simply getting the information wholesale, instead they were simply that good.

Genius beyond anything a human could understand. It stood against all notions of scientific progress, no longer building on the shoulders of those that came before but instead carried upon inhuman prowess. More, these categories were broadly applicable. Where a normal human might specialize in a single field of science, an Exalt could instead apply her genius to everything that could comprehensively be classified as Science simply by focusing on Lore. Even giving some leeway for differences between reality and game abstractions this was a terrifying advantage to leverage in a modern society, especially when it took no mystical power or special effort to use.

Judging the bar hot enough I grabbed it with the tongs, noting the dull feel of heat through my artificial callouses with satisfaction. Settling the white hot bar securely against the anvil, I resettled the hammer in my hand slightly in a slight nervous tick.

Moment of truth.

Raising the hammer, I brought it down. As soon as I began the downward swing I knew that it would be off, the angle was wrong and struck the center of the bar instead of the edge. Again I struck, this time adjusting for better results. Over and over the process repeated, a real time refinement of technique.

Tell me that doesn't sound like exactly what Batman and Iron Man do.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Well the way I see it is that

Well the way I see it is that, humans in superhero world's are way different than the humans of our world. I mean the flash can like pick up a bank robber and then super speed him into a police station without said robber liquefying into a fine mist, and superman can just pick up lois lane and fly her around at altitudes that would cause her too freeze her to death. In a world that works on comic book knowledge, it's not hard to believe that people would evolve in different way than us. In their case, people are a lot more durable than us in those worlds.

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I believe in at least the

I believe in at least the flash example that would be the speed force protecting what Flash carries.

I believe in some versions Superman has a sort of Invulnerability field he projects which is why his clothes don't get messed up (most instances it's just good ol' fashioned Kryptonian fabrics.) Which probably could be expanded to protect Lois from the cold.

Doesn't really explain how supes can throw Lex through a wall and have Lexy-boy be not just fine, but fine enough to exclaim about it.

I'm sure there's some comic book pseudo science able to explain this.

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Well it's also common for

Well it's also common for speedsters who aren't the flash to carry people without them turning into soup, and fliers who aren't superman to be able to carry people to higher altitudes without them freezing or suffocating to death. Look the point I'm trying to make here is that you can't really judge these superheroes abilities by our world's standards, you have to do it by their world's standards and well, I can tell that by that world's standards that batman is a normal human, because the story that surrouds him tells me that he's a normal human. Same thing with green arrow and hawkeye. The world tells me that this is just what highly trained martial artists are like in that, so I do believe that, that is the case here.

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Do we have any confirmation

Do we have any confirmation that in a Superhero setting their physics are the same as the real world? I know in D&D when it comes to the worlds used their physics function the same unless otherwise stated. We assume their world functions by our physics, this may not be the case. I mean usually Superhero settings have actual literal gods that really exist kicking around. So there's no real telling what sort of influences that has. Or the influences of actual literal magic.

I'm more inclined to believe it's the world that's different than the people, as it's a place where science explosions regularly result in not only survival of those involved but they end up with abilities far beyond normal!

Granted this is all fun speculation. As the real reason is much more mundane: narrative convenience.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Well the way I see it, it's

Well the way I see it, it's both the people and the world that's different. We get can see based on evidence that people can survive a lot of stuff that we can't, and we see people like batman and green arrow and we're told that this is just what a highly trained normal human is in that world. Both the people and the world are different, I mean sure there is enough similar to still make it relatable, but at it's core everything's different from our world. The people, the animals, physics. Everything. It's a fantasy world that kind of mirrors ours but works by it's own laws.

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It'd be interesting to see

It'd be interesting to see the Olympics in a super hero setting. If a highly trained person can be like Batman or Green Arrow then Olympic contenders must be something else. I've always been interested in the effect of metas on the sports industry. Do they check for metas? Are there scandals saying some gold medalists were metas? Or were found out to be?

All this meta vs. normal stuff makes me think of a character idea I had: Pro-Teen. They're not a meta but they are at max human potential. So take the best Olympic records for strength speed and all that, Pro-Teen is at that level, naturally.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Yeah I guess they would be

Yeah I guess they would be like batman but for like only for their specialities... I mean a human from that world can't really turn into batman by going to the gym everyday, like Bruce Wayne still had to devote a large portion of his life for that amount of training, and green arrow couldn't be green arrow if he wasn't stuck on that island for years come, but hey, it is still possible for a person from that world, with enough time and/or money to be an all natural superhero like that. It would be hard work, harder work than anyone's ever done in their life but, yeah it is possible. Would be fun to see a pole vaulter manage to win gold without even using a pole though...

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It's the Mermaid effect.

It's the Mermaid effect. People who are with Mermaids don't drown (as fast) underwater. Sometimes, Mermaids can even confer "water breathing" to others nearby who normally breathe atmosphere.

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

It's the Mermaid effect. People who are with Mermaids don't drown (as fast) underwater. Sometimes, Mermaids can even confer "water breathing" to others nearby who normally breathe atmosphere.

"We are not ninja, we are merely a hedge. Please move along."

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I like the part where the

I like the part where the motorist hits something, is very concerned when he thinks he hit a dog, but then completely blows it off when he realizes it was a ninja.

Be Well!
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what is this night of a

what is this night of a million zillion ninja? And where can I find and then make sweet love o it?

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The Tick comics, the original

The Tick comics, the original madness, not the various TV incarnations.
http://www.thetick.ws/comtick.html

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Fireheart

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Thank you!!

Thank you!!

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Not all superheroes were

Not all superheroes were ready to fight at all times. You can catch Bruce Wayne or Tony without their mighty devices. It would be great if one of these games gave the player a sense of vulnerability. I mentioned this a few seconds ago, but a emote of something which gives the player access to their powers. Like an emote with a guy stepping into a chamber. I like your idea, smart can beat brute strength.

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Yes I get the premise of this

Yes I get the premise of this thread. Yes people can invent gadgets and they don't need your "oh so special powers." and when they are old and had their fun...they can sell those gadgets and everyone can be super.
and when everyone's super...no one is. Bwa Ha Ha Ha! (walks away in triumph. cue villain theme)

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I think the term in Champions

I think the term in Champions/Hero System was "Obvious Power Focus" which let you be more powerful than your point total would normally allow, but on the other hand the GM would always be trying to separate it from you...

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Not all superheroes were ready to fight at all times. You can catch Bruce Wayne or Tony without their mighty devices. It would be great if one of these games gave the player a sense of vulnerability.

Actually, the way to handle this dichotomy would be Super ID versus Secret ID. In your Super ID, you can do all of these AMAZING things ... but in you can't do those same things in your Secret ID. But at the same time, you can use your Secret ID to go places (and do things) that you wouldn't (or at least, shouldn't) be able to do using your Super ID ... stuff like blending into crowds, or gaining access to locations you'd otherwise not be able to enter unchallenged/unrecognized/unnoticed in your Super ID.

Basically, Clark Kent can talk to people and learn things from them, as a (mild mannered) reporter that Superman couldn't do. Same thing with Bruce Wayne and Batman, owing to the fact that the two personas have different social pressure points and ... interrogation techniques. Bruce Wayne can win a battle in a boardroom in a way that Batman never could, for example, because Bruce Wayne is charismatic persuasion while Batman is force and intimidation.

Basically a Use The Right Tool For The Job kind of thing. If it helps, think of it as going "under cover" to get the general idea. After that, it's largely a question of whether or not you're able to maintain your cover (gain mission bonus) or if your cover is blown (lose mission bonus), with reverting to your Super ID being merely ONE of the ways you cover could get blown.


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That said. Bruce as Bruce,

That said. Bruce as Bruce, didn't have access to his gadgets as readily. Superman as Clark always had access to his powers.

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In a gaming context, that

In a gaming context, that basically comes down to "headcanon" self-imposed limitations. Basically the PLAYER decides if they should have access to their superpowers when in Secret ID or not. That way, the game will always give you the OPTION to go Super ID (and not change back) at any time. A Player playing a Bruce Wayne styled character simply wouldn't exercise the option to revert to Super ID, because their roleplay headcanon says that they shouldn't ... so they don't. Meanwhile, a Player playing a Clark Kent styled character COULD exercise the option to revert to Super ID at any time.

Basically, the game allows for EITHER possibility, simply as a matter of game mechanics. HOW the Player plays their character under those circumstances is then up to the Player to decide. So long as the use of Super ID is not forced by the content (as in, you have to switch to Super ID in order to complete the content at all) then the Player can play either way, depending on how they view their character, as a sort of Personal Challenge Mode that isn't being railroaded onto them by the game design.


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I think a dev somewhere said

I think a dev somewhere said that their is going to be a secret identity system that's going to level up on a separate path from your combat abiliteas, but also that it was definatly not going to be at launch

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Phararri wrote:

Not all superheroes were ready to fight at all times. You can catch Bruce Wayne or Tony without their mighty devices. It would be great if one of these games gave the player a sense of vulnerability.

Actually, the way to handle this dichotomy would be Super ID versus Secret ID. In your Super ID, you can do all of these AMAZING things ... but in you can't do those same things in your Secret ID. But at the same time, you can use your Secret ID to go places (and do things) that you wouldn't (or at least, shouldn't) be able to do using your Super ID ... stuff like blending into crowds, or gaining access to locations you'd otherwise not be able to enter unchallenged/unrecognized/unnoticed in your Super ID.

Basically, Clark Kent can talk to people and learn things from them, as a (mild mannered) reporter that Superman couldn't do. Same thing with Bruce Wayne and Batman, owing to the fact that the two personas have different social pressure points and ... interrogation techniques. Bruce Wayne can win a battle in a boardroom in a way that Batman never could, for example, because Bruce Wayne is charismatic persuasion while Batman is force and intimidation.

Basically a Use The Right Tool For The Job kind of thing. If it helps, think of it as going "under cover" to get the general idea. After that, it's largely a question of whether or not you're able to maintain your cover (gain mission bonus) or if your cover is blown (lose mission bonus), with reverting to your Super ID being merely ONE of the ways you cover could get blown.

That is a great concept.

As a child, I thought my name was handsome, cause that is what everyone called me.

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Phararri wrote:
Phararri wrote:

That is a great concept.

/em shrug

Every time I've brought it up, people have shot the idea down ... so there's that.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:
Phararri wrote:

That is a great concept.

/em shrug

Every time I've brought it up, people have shot the idea down ... so there's that.

There are many reasons we haven't gotten into making a secret id system and it isn’t for lack of wanting to do it.

We have add an entire subsystem to the main character sheet for the secret id which has its own faction ratings separate from the super id, yet shares all the other aspects of character data.

We have to provide sufficient content for secret ids to have a way of gaining faction reps. Which means a ton of missions with mainly non-combat objectives. There is also handling alignments and having possibly separate alignments...

To which, having the ability for one character to gain different faction reps based on persona has implications to the game which can not be disclosed but we would need to resolve in order to make things work.

Beyond that one of the common issues of a secret id is the risk of it being discovered. Which requires multiple systems involving how npcs recognize player characters, faction rep, resolving alignment conflations, etc.

And if the character loses their secret id, the player loses out on much of the content provided through the secret id system.

What it comes comes down to it, making something that will work within the scope of the game as it is would require making and maintaining almost enough work of running another game (almost), rsther like a major expansion. Something not to be taken llightly.


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Could someone's secret ID be

Could someone's secret ID be another super hero identity?

By day Dr. Miles Manners is your average wasp themed Superhero but under the cover of darkness he becomes DR. BEES!

Although it would be neat to do a Sentry / the void scenario where a character is not only a super hero but their own super Nemesis!
*Dramatic sting*

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

There are many reasons we haven't gotten into making a secret id system and it isn’t for lack of wanting to do it.

Granted, it would be a non-trivial addition of content to actually implement missions/story making use of the option. However, there are two different ways to build the underlying systems involved, leaving the opportunity available to circle back to including such content later on ought to be a relatively cheap thing to build in right now. Basically make the "hook" now ... to leave open the opportunity to hang something on that hook later, should resources to do so become available at a later date. In other words, avoid the urge to achieve premature optimization that would block off this possibility.

An example of this sort of thing happening in City of Heroes is that THAT game was originally written in such a way that PCs could ONLY be Heroes, and never be anything BUT Heroes. Obviously they hacked a way around that later on, but the fact that they'd built their systems in a particular way in the first place made changes later on MUCH harder to implement.

It's basically the difference between assuming a CONSTANT and assuming a VARIABLE as the base reference point for things. You can set up a Variable Value and then assign a value to it that, coincidentally, never winds up getting changed and therefore functions as a Constant ... but then you leave open the possibility that the Value can be changed at a later date to extend functionality ... or ... you assign a Constant that has to be hard code edited later should there be a "change you mind" decision made later on, where you have to hunt down every instance of that Constant Value assignment and switch it over to a variable. The former is Easy To Modify while the latter is Difficult to Modify, and an example of premature optimization. It might take SLIGHTLY longer to code using a Variable Value that winds up not getting changed (and therefore functions as a Constant Value), but it will save a tremendous amount of time later on if that functionality gets extended later on in future developments.

So there's a difference between leaving options open for future development versus blocking options off for the sake of immediate expediency where you shortchange the future to make ends meet in the present.


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It seems clear to me, that

It seems clear to me, that the Devs Have considered how to work with Secret IDs, so one might think they would avoid 'closing off' that option.

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Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

It seems clear to me, that the Devs Have considered how to work with Secret IDs, so one might think they would avoid 'closing off' that option.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Indeed.We have a very modular and expandable system for a great many things.

I just wanted to impart that when something is suggested as “just do this”, the implication is the effort is trivial. Sometimes it is. Sometimes, the effort is not just non-trivial, but of such scope as to be impractical.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

It's basically the difference between assuming a CONSTANT and assuming a VARIABLE as the base reference point for things. You can set up a Variable Value and then assign a value to it that, coincidentally, never winds up getting changed and therefore functions as a Constant ... but then you leave open the possibility that the Value can be changed at a later date to extend functionality ... or ... you assign a Constant that has to be hard code edited later should there be a "change you mind" decision made later on, where you have to hunt down every instance of that Constant Value assignment and switch it over to a variable. The former is Easy To Modify while the latter is Difficult to Modify, and an example of premature optimization. It might take SLIGHTLY longer to code using a Variable Value that winds up not getting changed (and therefore functions as a Constant Value), but it will save a tremendous amount of time later on if that functionality gets extended later on in future developments.

Well there's a middle ground for that in the form of declared constant (not hardcoding (what you seem to call constant up there) as those are different), that is "variables" where you tell the compiler to not allow to be changed after declaration. It's trivially easy to change those into normal variables by just dropping a keyword and still it has the same compiler optimization by being treated as a hardcoded values. Even without a constant declaration most compilers today look for such optimization potentials and may do such "switch out" (even if you didn't intend it to).

Imo the only place where it could be proper to use hardcoded values is for the constant values in algorithms and mathematical formulas, which should only be written once and called through a function.

I am sure the MWM devs already work in this way since it produces code that is easier to read for us humans and because compiler optimization is that good today.

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For most people just an extra

For most people just an extra costume slot would be all that is needed. Maybe we could add a civilian name and a great costume change emote
But I'm against a sub game for secret IDs.

This is Quality of Life issue and can be added later. Basic game first. That is all I want.

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I think it'd be neat to be

I think it'd be neat to be able to hit a button and bam! Character name is different, look is different, bio is different. It'd also be great if enemies treated the player differently.

Mostly because it's kind of annoying when you have a hero who looks very different in and out of costume and when people see you outside it they just know who your character is, probably because of the name floating above your head. But that's more of an RP pet peeve of mine. Damn metagamers.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I think it'd be neat to be able to hit a button and bam! Character name is different, look is different, bio is different. It'd also be great if enemies treated the player differently.

Mostly because it's kind of annoying when you have a hero who looks very different in and out of costume and when people see you outside it they just know who your character is, probably because of the name floating above your head. But that's more of an RP pet peeve of mine. Damn metagamers.

I think this would actually be a fairly doable option. Name-swapping in an MMO isn't a trivial undertaking, but adding a single extra costume slot with a name attached that can hide your bio (or have an alternate bio) might be doable, and could possibly be expanded into a greater feature later on. It theoretically wouldn't have an effect on powers or factions until such an expansion to the feature would come about, but I have quite a few characters that'd like to be able to attach a name to a specific costume.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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"Yes, Officer?"

"Yes, Officer?"
"Yes, that's my Secret Identity..."
"He did WHAT??"
"I never..."
"Oh... My... Goodness!"
"I'll be happy to apologize to the nuns."
"No, you can't possibly hold me responsible for what my Secret ID did!"
"Yes, Officer, I'll call my legal representative and come down to the station."

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

All this talk made me think on how I'm still waiting for them to reveal Black Widow has a version of the Super Soldier Serum in her. :p

She does. She was given biomechanical implants during her training in the KGB’s Red Room. (This was established in Black Widow: Breakdown #2, in 2001.)

She has powers very similar to Captain America (peak human physical ability, anti-aging). The Black Widow program was the USSR’s attempt at something like the US’s Super Soldier project, but creating spies instead of soldiers.

Just thought I had to address this... :)

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I knew that. I meant, I want

I knew that. I meant, I want them to reveal this in the MCU :) Which they haven't done.

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Oh... got it. I bet if they

Oh... got it. I bet if they ever made her solo film that’s been rumored multiple times they’d cover that.

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Halae wrote:
Halae wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

I think it'd be neat to be able to hit a button and bam! Character name is different, look is different, bio is different. It'd also be great if enemies treated the player differently.

Mostly because it's kind of annoying when you have a hero who looks very different in and out of costume and when people see you outside it they just know who your character is, probably because of the name floating above your head. But that's more of an RP pet peeve of mine. Damn metagamers.

I think this would actually be a fairly doable option. Name-swapping in an MMO isn't a trivial undertaking, but adding a single extra costume slot with a name attached that can hide your bio (or have an alternate bio) might be doable, and could possibly be expanded into a greater feature later on. It theoretically wouldn't have an effect on powers or factions until such an expansion to the feature would come about, but I have quite a few characters that'd like to be able to attach a name to a specific costume.

[NOTE: I know this is a bit of a "necro-response" but since this thread was recently necro'd by others I figured it'd be fine. That and the fact that I was overseas at the time of this post means I didn't really have a chance to respond to this discussion at the time regardless]

The idea of being able to have different character names based on which costume you're wearing has been suggested before - as far back as the CoH forums.

If you'll recall CoH had the ability to attach a "subtitle" to each character's name. This allowed people to name themselves things like "The Amazing Captain X" where the words "The Amazing" were the extra bits that were added later on.

Seems like they could expand that feature so that instead of only being able to select from a handful of hardwired words that they could essentially let us type secondary names into those spaces. Then the feature could be expanded so that instead of getting one of these "subtitles" per character you could get one per character slot.

It wouldn't exactly let you totally "rename" your character but at least you have some part of your name be unique from costume slot to costume slot. This would allow RPers to know that while you're wearing costume A that you'd want to be called "subname A" and while in costume B you'd be called "subname B".

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I like this idea.

I like this idea.

If CoT is going to have the ability to respec or even save multiple builds that you can change to on demand, this could be tied in to name and costume changes as well. Other games have done the whole saving multiple builds for different scenarios that you can switch into thing, but I don't think they came with costume and name changes.

It works really well with the superhero setting. "WHAT IS THIS? OUR TEAM NEEDS (healing/control/damage/whatever) THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR *dramatic spin and change of clothes* DIFFERENT NAME AND COSTUME PERSON!"

While each archtype is focused on a particular role, it might be possible that different choices within them could let us tweak ourselves in different directions that could help fine tune characters for certain situations. We could sacrifice durability, control, support, or offense for each other.

I'm not sure how feasible that would really be since each power set is designed around certain roles, but perhaps allowing different tertiary/etc choices attached to costume changes would be enough?

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TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

I like this idea.

If CoT is going to have the ability to respec or even save multiple builds that you can change to on demand, this could be tied in to name and costume changes as well. Other games have done the whole saving multiple builds for different scenarios that you can switch into thing, but I don't think they came with costume and name changes.

It works really well with the superhero setting. "WHAT IS THIS? OUR TEAM NEEDS (healing/control/damage/whatever) THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR *dramatic spin and change of clothes* DIFFERENT NAME AND COSTUME PERSON!"

While each archtype is focused on a particular role, it might be possible that different choices within them could let us tweak ourselves in different directions that could help fine tune characters for certain situations. We could sacrifice durability, control, support, or offense for each other.

I'm not sure how feasible that would really be since each power set is designed around certain roles, but perhaps allowing different tertiary/etc choices attached to costume changes would be enough?

Yeah being able to create unique "names" for different things doesn't have to be limited to costume slots. Maybe they could let each character build (assuming they carry over that concept from CoH) have a different name so that highly-coordinated teams could literally "flag" themselves to their teammates to let each other know what build they are using while playing the game.

There could be many uses for this kind of thing.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Not that respec need to be

Not that respecs and saving different builds need to be tied to different costumes mechanically. It would just be fun to have that option.

efb: exactly what Lothic said :)

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TheInternetJanitor wrote:
TheInternetJanitor wrote:

Not that respecs and saving different builds need to be tied to different costumes mechanically. It would just be fun to have that option.

efb: exactly what Lothic said :)

Just as a related bit of trivia it turns out that CoH would let you use badge titles as another form of "subtitle" under your character's name. For example if you had the Immortal badge you could set it to appear directly under your name so your name would read something like "NameImmortal" (just imagine the Name part being directly over the Immortal part).

So as it turns out you could set those badge titles with keybind commands and link them to costume slot change commands. Long story short you could effectively have unique badge titles listed for each costume slot. This worked pretty well if you were like me and had characters with 1390+ badges. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I really like that. I really,

I really like that. I really, really like that. It would be better if it was a bit more user friendly and obvious and built into the GUI if CoT adopted something to that affect, but the idea is cool.

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I used the fact that

I used the fact that Supergroup names were appended to character names, by setting up a supergroup called 'the Archangelle' for my character 'Michaelle' and her closest friends. So I could be "The Incomparable - Michaelle - the Archangelle". My SG-mates were Gabrielle, Raffaelle, Urielle, and others.

Be Well!
Fireheart