Starting Character Slots

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Project_Hero
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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Something else to consider. If we're building characters we're also potentially spending money on cash shop accessories for different concepts as well.
I know we can unlock certain things per character during play but if I want an aura, I want it now, and I'll probably pay for that. The more characters I get to make, the more is be tempted to buy more accessories.

Apparently badge unlocks will give clothing items which can also be bought in store for an account wide unlock which will be where my cash will probably go. So likely certain auras, animations, emotes, and all sorts will be available for those of us who are too lazy or too unmotivated to unlock and level.

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Yeah it's not even the too

Yeah it's not even the too lazy part. I want to have something at an account level and if I want that aesthetic for this character, I want that aesthetic, not half way through my leveling (looking at you original cape quest!)

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It's all about getting the

It's all about getting the concept together as soon as possible. Leveling beyond that is just gravy.

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
If you twist the words enough anything can mean anything else.
Giving people one slot and enough stars to buy more right off the bat you'll probably find that most folks will just buy the slots then have a rather sour disposition about how the game is going to use the F2P elements.
I mean even SWTOR gives more slots than one and that's run by EA. You know the scummiest corporation in the gaming industry? The company that has killed many studios? I sure as hell hope we can be better than EA in that respect. They set the bar pretty low, so it should be easy to clear.
Yes, they gave you enough for all the class stories (8) not enough to make 6 of each each.
And I think 8 slots is about a fair amount, though I wouldn't complain at a few more

Yes, but TOR's 8 slots was based on 8 classes. CoT will start with like 5 classes.

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Not if you're a free player.

Not if you're a free player. Then you get like 2. Or 4 now, Brand X.

Though I have no idea if you mean at launch or not.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Super M. wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
If you twist the words enough anything can mean anything else.
Giving people one slot and enough stars to buy more right off the bat you'll probably find that most folks will just buy the slots then have a rather sour disposition about how the game is going to use the F2P elements.
I mean even SWTOR gives more slots than one and that's run by EA. You know the scummiest corporation in the gaming industry? The company that has killed many studios? I sure as hell hope we can be better than EA in that respect. They set the bar pretty low, so it should be easy to clear.
Yes, they gave you enough for all the class stories (8) not enough to make 6 of each each.
And I think 8 slots is about a fair amount, though I wouldn't complain at a few more
Yes, but TOR's 8 slots was based on 8 classes. CoT will start with like 5 classes.

ToR had 8 classes with 2 sub classes each, so 16. So they got half of their options in slots before skill choices.

CoT will have 5 main archetypes with 5 main sets each with a specialization with 5 options each for secondary. So 125, before skill options.

So you're suggesting 62.5 starting character slots? I'll take it. :p

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Well if you were a previous

Well if you were a previous subscriber you got 6 or 8 or something like that. But for a serious response, ToR is really nothing like CoX or CoT, except in the mmo title.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

6. Some people only ever made ONE toon. Is it unfair to them to give everyone 8 starting slots, with the rationale being that you get that as part of the price of the game purchase? Can those people sell their unwanted slots back and get something they DO want in exchange?

If 'some people' don't want to take advantage of all of the opportunities built into the game, is that any reason to penalize the rest of us? 'Lowest possible target' is not the best way to serve a game's audience.

I presume that this was a 'Devil's Advocate' argument and not a suggestion that You are only ever going to make one character, Radiac.

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Radiac wrote:
6. Some people only ever made ONE toon. Is it unfair to them to give everyone 8 starting slots, with the rationale being that you get that as part of the price of the game purchase? Can those people sell their unwanted slots back and get something they DO want in exchange?
If 'some people' don't want to take advantage of all of the opportunities built into the game, is that any reason to penalize the rest of us? 'Lowest possible target' is not the best way to serve a game's audience.
I presume that this was a 'Devil's Advocate' argument and not a suggestion that You are only ever going to make one character, Radiac.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Actually I think it's completely possible some subset of the playerbase will only ever make and play one character. I just happen to believe that subset is going to be a very small minority.

People here have suggested that we're paying "too much attention to the way CoH handled this issue". Considering that this game is a "spiritual successor" to CoH I would think CoT would (and should) follow CoH's model much more closely than any other game.

If this game gives us say 8 character slots to start with and you only use a few of those that's not the game's "fault" or really anyone's "fault". This game is not going to solely rely on selling character slots for its financial success especially since they have no apparent problem giving us free slots whenever we max out existing characters. Based on that alone there's no logical reason for them to ONLY give us like 3 or 5 slots to start with. Getting 6 or 8 as a bare minimum seems absolutely reasonable for a game which, if it's anything like CoH, will be known for its reputation for being "alt-friendly".

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Super M.
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On a similar topic....though

On a similar topic....though slightly derailing, they did mention getting increased rewards with continued months subscription, and Im kinda excited to see what it will be, and what we'll have access to , because Im probably going to sub - mainly because I want to support CoT, and secondly, because its promised to be a fairly economical way to get extras.

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No matter how many we start

No matter how many we start with, it would make good business sense if that number is one or two less than what the bell curve says we want at start. So if the market research shows that we would want 8 characters to start with, then I think it would make sense that they give us six, so that they have a reliable market for some cash business without it appearing that they are greedy cash whores.

I am of the opinion that the number should be less but that each expansion slot should be priced so low as to be a painless, near thoughtless purchase.


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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Super M. wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
If you twist the words enough anything can mean anything else.
Giving people one slot and enough stars to buy more right off the bat you'll probably find that most folks will just buy the slots then have a rather sour disposition about how the game is going to use the F2P elements.
I mean even SWTOR gives more slots than one and that's run by EA. You know the scummiest corporation in the gaming industry? The company that has killed many studios? I sure as hell hope we can be better than EA in that respect. They set the bar pretty low, so it should be easy to clear.
Yes, they gave you enough for all the class stories (8) not enough to make 6 of each each.
And I think 8 slots is about a fair amount, though I wouldn't complain at a few more
Yes, but TOR's 8 slots was based on 8 classes. CoT will start with like 5 classes.
ToR had 8 classes with 2 sub classes each, so 16. So they got half of their options in slots before skill choices.
CoT will have 5 main archetypes with 5 main sets each with a specialization with 5 options each for secondary. So 125, before skill options.
So you're suggesting 62.5 starting character slots? I'll take it. :p

Let's follow up that logic with 1 character has access to 3 builds with different secondaries accessible to each one within their archetype.
3 characters can cover 27 combinations of powers, covering the entire launch sets plus 2 per archetype.
15 characters covers the entire launch set list across all archetypes.
7.5 characters being half, rounded up is 8.
Each character can potentially unlock a new slot.
4 characters can lead to 8. 8 leads to 16.
2 characters can lead to 4.
1 character leads to 2.

Half of what you need to start is .5.
You level up to 30 at the start which is just past half way to 50.
You technically have half a character at launch.
Boom, starting character slot is 1.

P.S. entire post is tongue-in-cheek.


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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

No matter how many we start with, it would make good business sense if that number is one or two less than what the bell curve says we want at start. So if the market research shows that we would want 8 characters to start with, then I think it would make sense that they give us six, so that they have a reliable market for some cash business without it appearing that they are greedy cash whores.
I am of the opinion that the number should be less but that each expansion slot should be priced so low as to be a painless, near thoughtless purchase.

I like this. This is probably the most reasonable answer from the "how can MWM make the most money" point of view: One or two slots less than "most" people want to encourage the "most" people to buy at least one or two extra slots without really having to think about it. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Super M. wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:
If you twist the words enough anything can mean anything else.
Giving people one slot and enough stars to buy more right off the bat you'll probably find that most folks will just buy the slots then have a rather sour disposition about how the game is going to use the F2P elements.
I mean even SWTOR gives more slots than one and that's run by EA. You know the scummiest corporation in the gaming industry? The company that has killed many studios? I sure as hell hope we can be better than EA in that respect. They set the bar pretty low, so it should be easy to clear.
Yes, they gave you enough for all the class stories (8) not enough to make 6 of each each.
And I think 8 slots is about a fair amount, though I wouldn't complain at a few more
Yes, but TOR's 8 slots was based on 8 classes. CoT will start with like 5 classes.
ToR had 8 classes with 2 sub classes each, so 16. So they got half of their options in slots before skill choices.
CoT will have 5 main archetypes with 5 main sets each with a specialization with 5 options each for secondary. So 125, before skill options.
So you're suggesting 62.5 starting character slots? I'll take it. :p

TOR didn't base it on the sub classes, they based it on the Classes :p The storyline if you will.

I'm going to guess CoT only has 1 storyline :p

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Bundles of 'six more slots'

Bundles of 'six more slots' for a discount?

Stalwart, Stalwart/Enforcer, Stalwart/Enforcer, Operator, Operator, Operator/Guardian/Ranger, Guardian/Ranger, that's seven characters that I'm absolutely going to build asap. Then there's the Commander(s). I have ideas for others, which are still in development and some that are fully developed, but I'm not sure if they're Possible in CoT.

I might be able to build my Human-Kheldian with a Ranger framework, depending on how soon we can choose Tertiaries and which ones are available. I'd need a blast and probably 'assault', then some shields and healing, all with an 'energy' signature.

But how do I build the character that's a Transformer? She's a teen who transforms into a Ranger, a Stalwart, and a Stealth-spec Enforcer-type. All forms made of Stone... Okay, that's just a costume change, but changing 'function' like that is probably not possible.

Is it any wonder that I'm arguing for a Dozen character slots to start with?

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Fireheart

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Fireheart wrote:
Radiac wrote:
6. Some people only ever made ONE toon. Is it unfair to them to give everyone 8 starting slots, with the rationale being that you get that as part of the price of the game purchase? Can those people sell their unwanted slots back and get something they DO want in exchange?
If 'some people' don't want to take advantage of all of the opportunities built into the game, is that any reason to penalize the rest of us? 'Lowest possible target' is not the best way to serve a game's audience.
I presume that this was a 'Devil's Advocate' argument and not a suggestion that You are only ever going to make one character, Radiac.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Actually I think it's completely possible some subset of the playerbase will only ever make and play one character. I just happen to believe that subset is going to be a very small minority.
People here have suggested that we're paying "too much attention to the way CoH handled this issue". Considering that this game is a "spiritual successor" to CoH I would think CoT would (and should) follow CoH's model much more closely than any other game.
If this game gives us say 8 character slots to start with and you only use a few of those that's not the game's "fault" or really anyone's "fault". This game is not going to solely rely on selling character slots for its financial success especially since they have no apparent problem giving us free slots whenever we max out existing characters. Based on that alone there's no logical reason for them to ONLY give us like 3 or 5 slots to start with. Getting 6 or 8 as a bare minimum seems absolutely reasonable for a game which, if it's anything like CoH, will be known for its reputation for being "alt-friendly".

Let me ask. When did CoH get the alt friendly reputation?

Before or after people could easily get to 50?

If before, maybe it was alt friendly because people gave up getting to 50.

If after, was it because to easy or just that there wasn't an end game?

We already know they're not copying everything.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Radiac wrote:
6. Some people only ever made ONE toon. Is it unfair to them to give everyone 8 starting slots, with the rationale being that you get that as part of the price of the game purchase? Can those people sell their unwanted slots back and get something they DO want in exchange?
If 'some people' don't want to take advantage of all of the opportunities built into the game, is that any reason to penalize the rest of us? 'Lowest possible target' is not the best way to serve a game's audience.
I presume that this was a 'Devil's Advocate' argument and not a suggestion that You are only ever going to make one character, Radiac.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Actually I think it's completely possible some subset of the playerbase will only ever make and play one character. I just happen to believe that subset is going to be a very small minority.
People here have suggested that we're paying "too much attention to the way CoH handled this issue". Considering that this game is a "spiritual successor" to CoH I would think CoT would (and should) follow CoH's model much more closely than any other game.
If this game gives us say 8 character slots to start with and you only use a few of those that's not the game's "fault" or really anyone's "fault". This game is not going to solely rely on selling character slots for its financial success especially since they have no apparent problem giving us free slots whenever we max out existing characters. Based on that alone there's no logical reason for them to ONLY give us like 3 or 5 slots to start with. Getting 6 or 8 as a bare minimum seems absolutely reasonable for a game which, if it's anything like CoH, will be known for its reputation for being "alt-friendly".
Let me ask. When did CoH get the alt friendly reputation?
Before or after people could easily get to 50?
If before, maybe it was alt friendly because people gave up getting to 50.
If after, was it because to easy or just that there wasn't an end game?
We already know they're not copying everything.

It was definitely known as alt friendly early on, when it was PAINFUL to get to 40.

I think what also plays into it is, you didn't always understood how your character played in later levels until you got there. Considering power choices and upgrade options changed things drastically, and there wasnt a respec initially. So you could get a long ways in, and then suddenly realize your build is not equipt for the challenge.

After that, there ALSO wasnt an endgame.

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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

P.S. entire post is tongue-in-cheek.

My entire prior post was a just as sarcastic quip to a previous post as well ;) So, well played =P

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Radiac wrote:
6. Some people only ever made ONE toon. Is it unfair to them to give everyone 8 starting slots, with the rationale being that you get that as part of the price of the game purchase? Can those people sell their unwanted slots back and get something they DO want in exchange?
If 'some people' don't want to take advantage of all of the opportunities built into the game, is that any reason to penalize the rest of us? 'Lowest possible target' is not the best way to serve a game's audience.
I presume that this was a 'Devil's Advocate' argument and not a suggestion that You are only ever going to make one character, Radiac.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Actually I think it's completely possible some subset of the playerbase will only ever make and play one character. I just happen to believe that subset is going to be a very small minority.
People here have suggested that we're paying "too much attention to the way CoH handled this issue". Considering that this game is a "spiritual successor" to CoH I would think CoT would (and should) follow CoH's model much more closely than any other game.
If this game gives us say 8 character slots to start with and you only use a few of those that's not the game's "fault" or really anyone's "fault". This game is not going to solely rely on selling character slots for its financial success especially since they have no apparent problem giving us free slots whenever we max out existing characters. Based on that alone there's no logical reason for them to ONLY give us like 3 or 5 slots to start with. Getting 6 or 8 as a bare minimum seems absolutely reasonable for a game which, if it's anything like CoH, will be known for its reputation for being "alt-friendly".
Let me ask. When did CoH get the alt friendly reputation?
Before or after people could easily get to 50?
If before, maybe it was alt friendly because people gave up getting to 50.
If after, was it because to easy or just that there wasn't an end game?
We already know they're not copying everything.

So you actually think the folks at MWM are going to do everything they can to make CoT seem "alt-unfriendly" regardless of when CoH actually gained the rep of being "alt-friendly"? I'm fairly certain the Devs of this game are going to do everything they can to INCREASE the idea that this game is "alt-friendly" whether it actually is at launch or not. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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If the goal is to be 'alt

If the goal is to be 'alt-friendly', like CoH, does it matter which came first? CoH was still known to be 'alt-friendly' at the end, so the features it had at that point may have had something to do with it. Some of those features were a character creation system that allowed a wide range of expression, multiple ATs and powersets, and plenty of character-slots.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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What it sounds to me like I'm

What it sounds to me like I'm hearing is people who only expect to have a few characters proposing that MWM should be cashing in on people who like to play a lot of alts.

I don't think that's a good or equitable situation. Character slots cost little to no developer time, and minimal system resources. A little storage is all.

Other likely cash shop items, such as costumes and props, consume art time, playtest time, debugging time, implementation time, as well as additional storage space... extra slots will cost MWM very little if any of those things.

I'm fine with extra slots being in the cash store, but seriously. They're as close to being a free item for MWM to make as anything can be. If they're stingy with starting slots, especially given that alts were supposed to be a big part of the game's appeal, that will not be cool by me.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Lothic wrote:
Fireheart wrote:
Radiac wrote:
6. Some people only ever made ONE toon. Is it unfair to them to give everyone 8 starting slots, with the rationale being that you get that as part of the price of the game purchase? Can those people sell their unwanted slots back and get something they DO want in exchange?
If 'some people' don't want to take advantage of all of the opportunities built into the game, is that any reason to penalize the rest of us? 'Lowest possible target' is not the best way to serve a game's audience.
I presume that this was a 'Devil's Advocate' argument and not a suggestion that You are only ever going to make one character, Radiac.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Actually I think it's completely possible some subset of the playerbase will only ever make and play one character. I just happen to believe that subset is going to be a very small minority.
People here have suggested that we're paying "too much attention to the way CoH handled this issue". Considering that this game is a "spiritual successor" to CoH I would think CoT would (and should) follow CoH's model much more closely than any other game.
If this game gives us say 8 character slots to start with and you only use a few of those that's not the game's "fault" or really anyone's "fault". This game is not going to solely rely on selling character slots for its financial success especially since they have no apparent problem giving us free slots whenever we max out existing characters. Based on that alone there's no logical reason for them to ONLY give us like 3 or 5 slots to start with. Getting 6 or 8 as a bare minimum seems absolutely reasonable for a game which, if it's anything like CoH, will be known for its reputation for being "alt-friendly".
Let me ask. When did CoH get the alt friendly reputation?
Before or after people could easily get to 50?
If before, maybe it was alt friendly because people gave up getting to 50.
If after, was it because to easy or just that there wasn't an end game?
We already know they're not copying everything.
So you actually think the folks at MWM are going to do everything they can to make CoT seem "alt-unfriendly" regardless of when CoH actually gained the rep of being "alt-friendly"? I'm fairly certain the Devs of this game are going to do everything they can to INCREASE the idea that this game is "alt-friendly" whether it actually is at launch or not. ;)

I'm wondering if we'll lack an end game to be alt friendly. Difficult leveling to be alt friendly. What exactly makes a game alt friendly?

TOR is alt friendly and that comes about because of all the stories.

So, besides being able to pick new powers, what is going to make the game alt friendly?

Only concepts is what made CO alt friendly, it didn't make it play game friendly. The game is quite boring. I had no love in making alt in CO, because the powers basically sucked. With CoT powers suck to play too?

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I have a feeling little

I have a feeling little endgame content, plus fun actual leveling, plus multiple leveling paths, plus different playstyles. I think all of these will make the game alt-friendly.

I do hope that slow leveling speeds are not a part of that.

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ToR isn't that alt friendly.

ToR isn't that alt friendly. There's zero difference in the stories of two smugglers for example. So it's alt friendly to a point. But then you're more or less just running the exact same missions after you're off your starting planets so not much variance there. With CoH, especially after radio missions, there were multiple ways to level a new character that felt distinct from eachother.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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I found, with TOR, the way it

I found, with TOR, the way it's alt friendly, is not to make a new smuggler back to back, but rather, smuggler > imp > rep > imp > rep > imp > rep > imp > back to smuggler!

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

What exactly makes a game alt friendly?

Apparently as you've established there are many reasons a game can ultimately be judged to be alt-friendly. But I know one relatively easy way to establish an impression that a game is intended to be "alt-unfriendly" and that would be to get only a few character slots to begin with. I'll honestly be surprised if we don't get at least 6 slots as a bare minimum for this game.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I found, with TOR, the way it's alt friendly, is not to make a new smuggler back to back, but rather, smuggler > imp > rep > imp > rep > imp > rep > imp > back to smuggler!

Was an extreme example but in CoX you could make 2 blasters back to back and level them differently Sewers->radio missions and just doing missions on the second. Then there's hero and villain sides to do that on.

Speaking of ToR, just to vent, I hated the Jedi consular starting quest. Click rock, then click rocks, then click More rock, then to mix it up... Click rock.

Where as the night got to fight a dark Jedi, help forge peace between the Jedi and the nearby twilek village, and all sorts of cool stuff!

Rant over.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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I recall it being very hard

I recall it being very hard to get people together to actually do, just missions :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I recall it being very hard to get people together to actually do, just missions :p

Probably. Missions were less fun than radio missions, sewers, task forces, etc.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Which is weird, as I don't

Which is weird, as I don't recall regular missions being any different than radio missions, except that radio missions were easier to grab.

Tasks Forces people would complain about the time investment, but would then spend longer on radio missions :p

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Easier to grab, you didn't

Easier to grab, you didn't need to return to contacts, ended up being really fast and in most cases less annoying.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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Project_Hero wrote:
Project_Hero wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I found, with TOR, the way it's alt friendly, is not to make a new smuggler back to back, but rather, smuggler > imp > rep > imp > rep > imp > rep > imp > back to smuggler!
Was an extreme example but in CoX you could make 2 blasters back to back and level them differently Sewers->radio missions and just doing missions on the second. Then there's hero and villain sides to do that on.
Speaking of ToR, just to vent, I hated the Jedi consular starting quest. Click rock, then click rocks, then click More rock, then to mix it up... Click rock.
Where as the night got to fight a dark Jedi, help forge peace between the Jedi and the nearby twilek village, and all sorts of cool stuff!
Rant over.

The Consular storyline gets a lot of crap for being the worst of all the classes, but I actually liked the Consular storyline (I leveled three consulars all the way to cap, 1 light, 1 dark and 1 just picking what I think I would have actually picked in that position). It was refreshing that it WASN'T just fighting. I mean, mechanically it was STILL a metric ton of killing everything in your path, but that wasn't the STORY. I will admit that the 30s were a very dry point, until you got to the First Son part at least.

I mean, it wasn't the BEST storyline, but I didn't think it was the WORST either.

Oddly enough I actually feel like that belongs to the Sith Inquisitor (which was my first level capped character). Now, don't get me wrong, and I haven't logged into SWTOR since my sub lapsed towards the end of KOTFE so I might be misremembering, but this is all stuff I thought about after my second play thru (why yes, I did level multiple of every single class), but while the Inquisitor story is fun and engaging while you're playing it, when you actually stop and think back on it you realize that YOU actually don't even matter to the storyline. Your character is a prop wielded and pointed by NPCs from 1 all the way to 50. None of the big actions/achievements are YOUR idea or YOUR doing. Everything during your prologue is forced upon you SLAVE! All of Chapter 1? Zash's bidding. Assassinating Scotia? Zash's idea and machinations. Survived Zash's inevitable betrayal? Thank Kallig's warnings and the pure dumb luck of Khem Val getting in the way. Surviving Thanaton's initial attempt on your life? Kallig again. Binding the spirits to yourself? Kallig's idea. Surviving Thanaton's flat out murder of you for surviving his first trap? THANK THE SPIRITS,.. which Kallig told you to bind. Recruiting a new apprentice? Ghost-Zash. Rallying military support under your banner? Moff whatever-his-name-was' idea. Using the Mother Machine to cure the degeneration caused by binding all those spirits? Ghost-Zash. Voss healing ritual? More Ghost-Zash. Even your ultimate accomplishment, dealing the death blow against Darth Thanaton, is ultimately taken by someone else. Darth Mortis, after you overpowered Thanaton in the Dark Council chambers. YOUR CHARACTER accomplishes NOTHING. You're merely maneuvered into place by others the entire time. You're a pawn-at-worst, supporting-character-at-best in your own story from start to finish.

/rant

@Brand X

The thing that made CoH alt friendly to me was that by making different choices (What origin is this character? Do I start in AP or GC? Do I go to The Hollows, or skip it? Do I pick A, B, or C, which this contact offers to introduce me to another contact? Etc.) their stories were different and you weren't just repeating the same ol same ol content ad nauseum everytime you decided to make a new character. Hell after years of playing and dozens of characters I'm certain there were MORE arcs that I'd never actually done before if I had really wanted to take another alt through them.

The vast variety of CoH's contact arcs branching out and intersecting all over the place kept the game fresh and new even on your 5th, 6th, 10th or 20th character. This was actually one of the things I didn't like about Redside, was that it was a far narrower story path, so you DID end up repeating a LOT of the content.

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One thing that bugged the

One thing that bugged the crap out of me when it came to the Jedi classes is in their starting mission they gave "fostering peace with a local Twi'lek settlement" something that should be done by the more diplomat Consular to the Jedi Knight! I think they should have split and expanded the Knight's storyline and given parts to both Jedi classes.

Same as the Knight's story (at least what I played of it) was "Go find defunct Republic Military weapons that the imps are trying to use" and the Republic Soldier was "Go track down traitors to the Republic!" Which I feel would have been much more interesting if they were fallen Jedi so your knight could go around sorting that out while the Republic Trooper went around sorting out the defunct military projects.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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The end game is Alting. That

The end game is Alting. That means 6-8 slots is a good start.

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For the record, I had 10

For the record, I had 10 toons on old CoX, not counting the villain I made and almost never played and two toons I deleted for different reasons. Oh,and that number also doesn't include a few I made just to have the name before someone else got it.

As for the rest, I think the psychology of the customers is the deciding factor here, not the number of slots any one of us claims we'll need. People who claim they'll make 30 toons will probably be the people spending Stars on more slots, no matter what, and people who only play one or two toons probably won't need to pay for more slots no matter what. The thing the devs need to ascertain is how many starting slots feel like enough to the average gamer and go with that. And as I said, GW2 gives you 5 slots with no way to uinlock anymore for free later just by getting one to the cap. Also, that game really lays on the inventory crunch with items galore. So I think for CoT 5 is plenty, 3 would be enough, and depending on how many Stars I get included with the purchase of the game and on the price of new slots, I could be content with one to start with and then use the stars to buy more as needed, or to buy something else.

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I can accurately state that 3

I can accurately state that 3 starting slots would make me think they prioritize monetization over customer value and would lock down my wallet till 4+ months in to see how the game goes. I honestly think your advice will absolutely lose them money and early game support.

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Gamers on these forums

Gamers on these forums expecting the things they personally want in the game to be free is nothing new and doesn't surprise or move me in any way anymore. Statements that sound like "I'll rage quit if I don't get ____ and so will everyone else" bore me.

Why don't we talk about the things we WOULD HAPPILY pay money for and focus on that, which to me is a far more productive use of time?

Personally, I'm not against having to pay for anything, really. That said there are some things I would want to get and others I would not bother with, regardless of cost.

Am I going to buy 10 extra character slots, ever, for any price, when I know I can unlock a new slot for free by leveling up a toon to the cap? Almost certainly not, I would level the toons and get the slots as needed that way. After all I can only play one toon at a time anyway.

I'm also not really interested in new content if it's just more missions like the Signature Story Arcs in CoX where they advance the game's lore storylines and don't really get me any good augments or anything.

I definitely intend to be a subscriber and would buy costume pieces using the Stars my sub gets me without complaining that I should just get them for free as a subscriber. That said, I think most potential subscribers would want some tangible in-game perk for being a subscriber that the non-subs don't get. What that might be is always an argument. This is further complicated by the fact that people can let their subs lapse, which means the subscriber perks should be a toggle switch thing that you can turn off and back on again without too much difficulty.

If you give subscribers access tonew zones, content etc, non-subs complaint that it divides the players into haves and have nots and it prevents being able to team up with friends.

If you give subscribers more slots, they make a ton of toons, then let their sub lapse then what? Do you delete the extra slots? Do yuo lock them out of their toons in the extra slots until their sub is paid? Any way you cut it that feels like taking away peoples toys.

If you give subs some kind of powerup, you're immediately accused of running a Pay to Win game.

All forms of monetization feel like being forcibly separated from your money when you realize that you'll actually have to pay up to get what you personally want. It makes no difference if it's character slots or costume parts or respecs or augments or access to new content. Just maintaining a game for people to play costs money.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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Id rather have individual

Id rather have individual slots cost more, and just a few more upfront, than have 1-5 slots at start. The game for me is alts, and I want my initial purchase to have value. Its more of a faith and customer loyalty thing than anything.

I get that this isnt an important thing to you, but I think they'll get more customer loyalty in the end with allowing an entire playstyle to be accounted for at launch, without touching the cash shop.

EDIT: As far as subscription, I think itll be a small set of features auto unlocked that could be bought individually, and then just a discount bundle of stars with -such- a discount that its the logical choice to sub. Couple that with their statement that youll get more for your sub as you do continous months subs, would seem great for me.

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Although a funny thought if

Although a funny thought if you want to talk about consumer psychology - give people an odd number of slots like 7. I cant tell you how many people I know would purchase another slot right off the bat, just to make it an even number =P

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Super M. wrote:
Super M. wrote:

Although a funny thought if you want to talk about consumer psychology - give people an odd number of slots like 7. I cant tell you how many people I know would purchase another slot right off the bat, just to make it an even number =P

*sheepishly raises hand* I probably wouldn't ABSSOUUTTLLYY NEEEEEED to buy an extra slot just to make that number not be odd instantaneously. But I suspect after I figured out all the other things I'd want to buy from the cash store first (like costume slots and other costume items or whatever) that slipping in the purchase of -some- number of extra character slots (whether I specifically needed them or not) just to make that number be non-odd would likely happen pretty quick. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I'd be okay with just five to

I'd be okay with just five to start.
That's enough to make one of each of the launch Archetypes.

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One place where the number of

One place where the number of toons you actually have affects other things is in storage space. In GW2, I only played two different characters, and only 1 with any real regularity. The other three slots were devoted to mule toons that stored excess stuff for me and opened bags. GW2 had an easy way to transfer stuff across different toons on the same account. You just go to the bank and all of your toons can access the same bank vault storage. Also, ihn GW2, al of your toons use the same supply of IGC at all times. You can log off of one guy and onto another and you always have the same amount of gold, unlike CoX.

What if CoT had a system whereby all of your item storage is entirely account-wide and not in any way enhanced by making more toons? Then you'd just make a new toon if you want to try a new toon, and if you want added storage space, you buy added storage space. Then only the various earned merits, accolades, etc would be toon-specific. So like, if you're on a mission to collect valueless trinkets as part of some mission, your toon has a way to track how many you've got, but it's not in storage space, it uses a "wallet" of it's own. That could be character-specific or account wide too I guess.

There's a disconnect with the lore and the suspension of disbelief there. Why is my villain getting rich as I play my hero, etc. But people don;t care about that stuff when they're benefitting from it, so it probably doesn't matter.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I'm not sure it should that

I'm not sure it should that automatic.

I would rather see that we get both a personal and an account wide bank-storage, and the account one being able to hold IGC that is explicitly deposited into it.

As for "valueless trinkets" for a mission as long they are solely of the category "quest item" then they should be character bound. If they can be used for more than just quests then sure, make them tradeable.

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In CoX, I had a couple of

In CoX, I had a couple of personal SGs that had no other purpose than to transfer items between characters. I do find the account-level storage and IGC in GW2 to be useful. That way, if I need... carrots, for instance, on one character, I'm not required to actually gather the carrots with that character, but All of my characters can contribute carrots to the general good. I'm also not stuck trying to memorize the inventory of multiple characters and trying to remember which one has the carrots.

Let general storage and crafting materials and IGC all be held in common by the account.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I think the best compromise

I think the best compromise between Optimum convenience (all characters share the same inventory) and optimum realism (each character has its own inventory) would be similar to how SWTOR does it with their legacy system.

As you create characters, you can establish a relationship between them. Are they parents, children, siblings, allies, married or enemies? Then, when you establish this relationship you establish some other access rights, like do they share badges? bank inventory? access to lairs? contacts? friends lists? etc.

This way every character can work their own justifications into their own personal balance between convenience and realism.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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5 is about as low as I'll

5 is about as low as I'll accept :p

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4. 1 slot to try out most of

4. 1 slot to try out most of the classes and that one class to motivate the player to buy one more slot. Remember how slow leveling was in COX at the beginning? I expect the same with COT. At first you'll burn through slots quickly so there should be a lot of motivation to buy more slots. Later on it wont matter as much because players will be able to level faster and quickly earn max level bonus slots. Anyway, that's my thoughts. I think 3 is pretty good too.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

One place where the number of toons you actually have affects other things is in storage space. In GW2, I only played two different characters, and only 1 with any real regularity. The other three slots were devoted to mule toons that stored excess stuff for me and opened bags. GW2 had an easy way to transfer stuff across different toons on the same account. You just go to the bank and all of your toons can access the same bank vault storage. Also, ihn GW2, al of your toons use the same supply of IGC at all times. You can log off of one guy and onto another and you always have the same amount of gold, unlike CoX.
What if CoT had a system whereby all of your item storage is entirely account-wide and not in any way enhanced by making more toons? Then you'd just make a new toon if you want to try a new toon, and if you want added storage space, you buy added storage space. Then only the various earned merits, accolades, etc would be toon-specific. So like, if you're on a mission to collect valueless trinkets as part of some mission, your toon has a way to track how many you've got, but it's not in storage space, it uses a "wallet" of it's own. That could be character-specific or account wide too I guess.
There's a disconnect with the lore and the suspension of disbelief there. Why is my villain getting rich as I play my hero, etc. But people don;t care about that stuff when they're benefitting from it, so it probably doesn't matter.

This works well for those people who play fewer characters, but it falls apart for people who play many alts.

If, for example in an individual banking system each character would have 40bank slots, but in a shared system your account gets 100bank slots, its a net gain if you only play 1 or 2 characters, but a net LOSS in storage space if you play 3 or more. This net loss of space of course grows dramatically the more alts you have.

Take Elder Scrolls Online for example. In ESO I have a single shared bank for all my characters (of which there are 8), but the entire thing is filled crafting materials (of which ESO has HUNDREDS OF TYPES) from my main crafter (because I'm not a subscriber and thus don't get to use the Crafting Materials Bag (nor can you buy the Crafting Bag unlock, you MUST subscribe to use it)). This means, essentially, that NONE of my 7 other characters even HAVE a bank. Yes, they can all access the shared bank, but unless they want to store more crafting materials (of a type that I already have, but not exceeding the max stack limit of 200) they can't PUT anything INTO it.

Therefore, IMO, IF CoT has a shared banking system, I would also hope that individual characters also have at least a small amount of per character storage.

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People still fail to see why

People still fail to see why subscription based MMO have gone the way of the dodo and instead every MMO--heck even non-MMOs--going the microtransaction way.

Microtransaction really means looking at the macroeconomy, the big picture of how a game earns revenue from the entire playerbase, not individual players.

First of all, as an MMO, you really really want as many people playing as possible. Even if 90% are freeloaders and pay zip, it's still good for the game to have the perception that many people play it, day in day out.

So the moral here is low or nonexistent entry fee so that people will even try your game; plus some value to entice the players to stick around. One such value is reasonable amount of free character slots, so players can spend some time to explore your game. In short, make players play and want to play your game.

Second, identify the major source of items that people will splurge on from the cash shop. Observing from other games, one such category of money-makers is cosmetics items, including customizing looks of characters, armors, weapons, mounts, etc. One can extrapolate that more characters created means more costumes will be bought.

Once again, this tells us that MMOs should encourage players to attain and to be attached to the characters they made. More characters available mean more attachments. In the long run, this means more costumes bought for all their characters; that is, more revenue for the game.

Now what I think will be reasonable value for initial and subsequent character slots. Start with 6-8 slots. Maybe a bit higher than industry average. Remember superheroes genre is made for experimentation with alts, so more slots available will entice players to create more characters. So right off the bat, more costumes will be sold for all the characters made. Then for additional character slots, sell them in packages of 3, but not too high price ($10 for 3 seems great value). That way they will create 3 more characters, and that's 3 more sets of costumes sold in a short time frame.

To conclude, you don't have to nickel-and-dime every little detail. Look at the big picture. Microtransaction businesses are really supported by 10% of its customer-base who pay 70% of its revenue. Obviously this means huge population don't contribute much. But that doesn't matter; since it's proportional, the more fish you try to catch, the more whales will also be caught in the process. In short, attain and keep as many people playing your game for a long time, and the revenue will naturally flow in.

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It's not good when it creates

It's not good when it creates a toxic environment, which almost all, if not all, F2P MMOs are.

Best communities I've seen in an MMO was CoH and currently FFXIV. Both were subbed based.

Truth is, the best return for a players money, was the 15 dollars a month sub. The problem with that, was there were players who didn't realize how 50 cents a day, play all day, was really the best math for any game.

Those who won't pay anything, tend to be the toxic, whining players. Micro transactions tend to cost more than the 50 cents a day, to feel like your doing well at the game.

That's the truth of it. It's the same principle when it comes to shopping. People are ****ing retarded. They go to the store that says 50% off, but charges more, than the store that sells the same thing, but at an already reduced cost. People think they're getting the better deal on the micro transaction only because they think "FREE!" F2P is not free, never was.

I've yet to play any F2P MMO that I didn't feel like I needed to spend money on.

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I think it depends where you

I think it depends where you go for the toxic part. A friend of mine played Dungeons and Dragons Online for a while and it was the payers there. Those who could pay for special store only potions (essentially full HP and/or MP potions) got to go on raids, while those who didn't... Didn't. As in the haves wouldn't team with the have nots no matter how well you played.

But that's where paying for power gets you, I guess. Pay to Win will always create a toxic community from one side or the other.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

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This isn't to say you won't

This isn't to say you won't find great people in the filth, just that F2P brings out the toxic ones in numbers.

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and what that has to do with

and what that has to do with this topic?

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Someone was drawing parallels

Someone was drawing parallels between the number of character-slots, the financial model, and community toxicity.

I'm still voting for 10-12 character slots to start.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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If there's a vote I'll vote

If there's a vote I'll vote for as many as I can get :p

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Spitter wrote:
Spitter wrote:

So the moral here is low or nonexistent entry fee so that people will even try your game; plus some value to entice the players to stick around. One such value is reasonable amount of free character slots, so players can spend some time to explore your game. In short, make players play and want to play your game.

The devs have already mentioned that the most likely scenario will be that you have to pay to buy the game up-front in some way. A lot of us are assuming that will amount to a ~$50 download/account creation/game install in some way. The main reason for this is player toxicity. The devs will have the Ban-hammer, and if it costs $50 to make a new account after they ban yours for being a jerk, the jerks will die off to natural selection very quickly.

As for the microtransaction market, again, it all sounds agreeable when you tell people "like 90% of people will freeload just fine while the game is supported by the 10% who do pay" but when you get down to specifics that the whales are expected to buy, you then have to figure out what the whales want and sell it to them, which causes the devs to spend a lot of time making new funny hats they can sell to me when they ought to make more content for everyone to play. Also, whatever you start to sell in the store, people will complain that you're a greedy SOB and that they shouldn't have to pay for that, etc. The lesson to learn there, I think, is not to take such ultimatims seriously when peole threaten to rage quit or not even buy they game unless they get their ____ that they think they deserve for free with purchase. That's a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

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I can't help but imagine that

I can't help but imagine that the devs know people are going to want to try multiple characters, likely from lvl 1 to around 10, to find the one they want to progress further with. I imagine 4 is the minimum they would consider with a max, at least to start out with which is logical, around 8-10. I could be wrong...but if I had to guess it would be 5-6.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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I dont think thats a good

I dont think thats a good lesson to take away at all and the appearance of that attitude will absolutely lose them customers, most importantly including the initial $50 purchases, who may or may not buy more.

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Spitter wrote:
Spitter wrote:

To conclude, you don't have to nickel-and-dime every little detail. Look at the big picture. Microtransaction businesses are really supported by 10% of its customer-base who pay 70% of its revenue. Obviously this means huge population don't contribute much.

I do not want my game to be steered by the whales. Refer to Radiac's comments.
I am fine with paying a monthly sub to keep the servers humming and the rich content bubbling.

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This applies to probably just

This applies to probably just me but...I've been waiting for this game long enough that I'll be happy starting out with just one character slot. I'll obviously want more eventually...but I'll take one. Just get me in that damn game. Like, yesterday.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.

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I'm going to revise my

I'm going to revise my earlier opinion of having 4 slots to start with to instead be ... 1 slot per Archetype.

The game will launch with 5 Archetypes.
Stalwart
Enforcer
Guardian
Ranger
Operator

The Commander Archetype is due for release post launch.

So peg the "free" number of character slots on a new account at 5 to start with and then let people add on from there, either through purchase (Stars) or by playing the game (Level Cap achievement reward).


Verbogeny is one of many pleasurettes afforded a creatific thinkerizer.

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