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Discuss: Highway To The Danger Room

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Lothic
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Pyromantic]Lothic, the part
Pyromantic wrote:

Lothic, the part you just quoted actually says that what level you took the power at has no effect on whether or not you kept set bonuses. It has nothing to do with the level at which you took the power or the level at which you placed the slots.

*sigh* If you placed the powers at BADLY CHOOSEN LEVELS during a respec you'd end up placing the enhancement slots badly which can lead to gimped characters BECAUSE...

Pyromantic wrote:

It has to do with the level of the enhancements themselves.

You may have to re-chose the LEVEL of the enhancements themselves via different enhancement loadouts because of your bad respec choices. Is this whole thing really -that- hard to understand? CAUSE AND EFFECT my friend. I'll just leave it at this: If you managed to do respecs in CoH and didn't suffer any consequences from bad respec planning then more power to you. The rest of us sadly had to worry about the ramifications of bad choices.

So with that settled I'll ask if you recall that the "original topic" that started all this off actually had practically nothing to do with enhancements in any specific way - it was about being able to use a tool like Mids' to prevent you from gimping yourself by making bad choices during badly planned respecs. Hopefully we'll have a tool like that for CoT.

Also for what it's worth I'll just remind the both of us that the CoT powers system is not even going to have things specifically called "enhancements" anyway so congratulations in enabling both of us to waste time "counting the number of angels on the head of a pin" that won't even exist in CoT in the first place.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Re choose the level of

Re choose the level of enhancements? When at level 50 you just slotted max level (50) enhancements. Enhancement level was based purely on character level, not level inwhich you picked a power.

Lothic
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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Re choose the level of enhancements? When at level 50 you just slotted max level (50) enhancements. Enhancement level was based purely on character level, not level inwhich you picked a power.

Most certainly not! The most valuable IOs in the game (and I'm talking worth multiple billions of INF each) were always parts of PvP sets in the level 27-30 range because you could still use them (with their IO set bonuses intact) at level 50 AND when exemplared down to the level ranges for the majority of significant PvP zones. It was essentially the most extreme min/maxing most people ever bothered with.

So while I might agree with you that most of the time people mindlessly used level 50 IO sets when they reached level 50 the most extreme build planning people (i.e. the people who most relied on Mids' which was again the core point I was originally referring to in my earlier post) always had builds that literally used enhancements of ALL DIFFERENT levels to absolutely maximize what they were doing. Again that's why it could ABSOLUTELY MATTER in which order you would select powers and power slots during any respec. For some reason certain people on this thread don't seem to want to understand how all that used to work.

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Lothic, I never said that the

Lothic, I never said that the order in which you pick powers didn't matter in a respec. Nor did I say planning wasn't important in a respec. It would be appreciated if you didn't change what was said in order to argue against it.

Lothic
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Pyromantic wrote:
Pyromantic wrote:

Lothic, I never said that the order in which you pick powers didn't matter in a respec. Nor did I say planning wasn't important in a respec. It would be appreciated if you didn't change what was said in order to argue against it

And I would have appreciated if you had followed along with my original post on this matter where I clearly was much more concerned with the issue of being able to use a build planner in CoT so as to mitigate the chances of gimping oneself during a build/respec than this asinine semi-pointless back-n-forth about enhancements, which I'll again remind you won't even have a bearing on what happens in CoT. If anything I suppose I can only apologize(?) to you that I somehow made you think that mere mention of enhancements in that first post had anything even remotely important to do with OBVIOUS main point of my concerns here. Basically you took the ball and ran to the opposing team's goal with this one...

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Brand X
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Re choose the level of enhancements? When at level 50 you just slotted max level (50) enhancements. Enhancement level was based purely on character level, not level inwhich you picked a power.
Most certainly not! The most valuable IOs in the game (and I'm talking worth multiple billions of INF each) were always parts of PvP sets in the level 27-30 range because you could still use them (with their IO set bonuses intact) at level 50 AND when exemplared down to the level ranges for the majority of significant PvP zones. It was essentially the most extreme min/maxing most people ever bothered with.
So while I might agree with you that most of the time people mindlessly used level 50 IO sets when they reached level 50 the most extreme build planning people (i.e. the people who most relied on Mids' which was again the core point I was originally referring to in my earlier post) always had builds that literally used enhancements of ALL DIFFERENT levels to absolutely maximize what they were doing. Again that's why it could ABSOLUTELY MATTER in which order you would select powers and power slots during any respec. For some reason certain people on this thread don't seem to want to understand how all that used to work.

Oh. Yes. The PvP aspect and not the top PvE DPS aspect. The ability to exempt down and still maintain the bonuses.

The slots still didn't matter though. You got access to all slots, no matter what level exempt down to and the power selection was always a bit limited at the lower levels.

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About slotting, could anyone

About slotting, could anyone help me to really understand the last part of the post ?

Quote:

"Crafted items? Well… those are another story. And I’ll give you two little teasers. First, you’re not going to be carrying around fifty pairs of fairy pants. The things you make come from what you see and do and think of, not from looting the fallen. Second, remember what I said about mixed sets? Those may not exist, but simple sets will. Slot three of the right kind of augment, and you might just get a little bonus. And they don’t decay at all."

Warcabbit refers to the mixed and simple sets. Is that ironic when he says "slot three [...] you might just get a little bonus". I thought it will be 75% bonus with 3 slots. Maybe i didn't understand correctly this simple and mixed system ?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Re choose the level of enhancements? When at level 50 you just slotted max level (50) enhancements. Enhancement level was based purely on character level, not level inwhich you picked a power.
Most certainly not! The most valuable IOs in the game (and I'm talking worth multiple billions of INF each) were always parts of PvP sets in the level 27-30 range because you could still use them (with their IO set bonuses intact) at level 50 AND when exemplared down to the level ranges for the majority of significant PvP zones. It was essentially the most extreme min/maxing most people ever bothered with.
So while I might agree with you that most of the time people mindlessly used level 50 IO sets when they reached level 50 the most extreme build planning people (i.e. the people who most relied on Mids' which was again the core point I was originally referring to in my earlier post) always had builds that literally used enhancements of ALL DIFFERENT levels to absolutely maximize what they were doing. Again that's why it could ABSOLUTELY MATTER in which order you would select powers and power slots during any respec. For some reason certain people on this thread don't seem to want to understand how all that used to work.
Oh. Yes. The PvP aspect and not the top PvE DPS aspect. The ability to exempt down and still maintain the bonuses.
The slots still didn't matter though. You got access to all slots, no matter what level exempt down to and the power selection was always a bit limited at the lower levels.

Wait wait, let me get this straight.

In CoH, when you exemplard down you retained IO set bonuses from enhancements in powers that you lost access to due to the lower level as long as the IO itself had a low enough level to still be considered "valid"?

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

About slotting, could anyone help me to really understand the last part of the post ?
Quote:
"Crafted items? Well… those are another story. And I’ll give you two little teasers. First, you’re not going to be carrying around fifty pairs of fairy pants. The things you make come from what you see and do and think of, not from looting the fallen. Second, remember what I said about mixed sets? Those may not exist, but simple sets will. Slot three of the right kind of augment, and you might just get a little bonus. And they don’t decay at all."
Warcabbit refers to the mixed and simple sets. Is that ironic when he says "slot three [...] you might just get a little bonus". I thought it will be 75% bonus with 3 slots. Maybe i didn't understand correctly this simple and mixed system ?

He means that by slotting the right number of specific augments you'd get an additional bonus (of whatever type) beyond just what those augments would normally grant.

If you've ever played most other MMOs they have Armor Sets where when you're wearing multiple pieces from the same set there's an additional stat bonus that you get on top of the stats from each individual armor piece [example- 3 Piece set bonus: +10 strength].

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

If you've ever played most other MMOs they have Armor Sets where when you're wearing multiple pieces from the same set there's an additional stat bonus that you get on top of the stats from each individual armor piece [example- 3 Piece set bonus: +10 strength].

Oh, thanks Oathboundone ! This is what he meant by "mixed" system ?? i didn't understand that :/ i thought it was a refinement system which allow to put some type of refinements with another... Explanations are not so lucid on this article xD

So, to summarize :

  • - Simple system : put an augment give a basic bonus (ex : +25% damage), put 2 augments give 2 basic bonus (ex : +25% damages, +25% damages), etc
  • - Mixed system : put at least 3 augments from the same type gives more bonus on the basic total bonus (ex : +5% damages if they are only damage augment)

is that right ?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The slots still didn't matter though. You got access to all slots, no matter what level exempt down to

Once again I would question this point because different enhancement sets offered different bonuses depending on the number of individual members of a given set you had slotted in a power. It was actually fairly well known that many of the IO sets didn't actually strictly behave the way they were supposed to and that some bonuses were essentially "buggy" while exemplared. People took advantage of that for their min/maxing.

Let's just say Mids' specifically let you track exactly at which levels you added slots to given powers so the idea that you would carefully plan which levels you picked powers during a respec but then would -not- care about which levels you picked slots seems haphazard at best. To each their own I suppose.

Brand X wrote:

and the power selection was always a bit limited at the lower levels.

But I will grant you the point that there were many more level 50 enhancement set choices than say level 30 sets but since the PvP folks were primarily interested in getting the maximum amount of benefit while exmeplared down to specific sub-50 levels they were obviously willing to live with the limited choices available.

blacke4dawn wrote:

Wait wait, let me get this straight.

In CoH, when you exemplard down you retained IO set bonuses from enhancements in powers that you lost access to due to the lower level as long as the IO itself had a low enough level to still be considered "valid"?

Yes, but it definitely mattered which -type- of enhancement you were talking about here. Again according to the paragonwiki on the matter:

Quote:

The Set Bonuses of Purple (Very Rare) Sets and PvP Sets are immune to the effects of exemplaring. However, the aspects of the power that they buff (e.g., Accuracy or Damage) are affected by exemplaring just like any other enhancement.

Quote:

There are two (currently, maybe more to come) Global PvP Special IOs that are excepted from the under-exemplaring rule. If it's a PvP Special IO, it will never turn off from exemplaring.

Basically only the super-special rare Purple/PvP sets worked like this. That's clearly why they were always among the most valuable trading fodder in the game, especially the ones that were in certain sub-50 level ranges.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I really enjoyed very

I really enjoyed very precisely building, chosing powers, and slotting so that when I exemplar/flashback/PvPed I would be as powerful as possible. It was like a game within a game for me. I hope there is a similar dynamic in CoT.

Though it says a lot for CoH that probably most players didn't know or care about this aspect of the game and played successfully and had plenty of fun anyway.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I really enjoyed very precisely building, chosing powers, and slotting so that when I exemplar/flashback/PvPed I would be as powerful as possible. It was like a game within a game for me. I hope there is a similar dynamic in CoT.

Though it says a lot for CoH that probably most players didn't know or care about this aspect of the game and played successfully and had plenty of fun anyway.

I continue to suspect that at least half (if not more) of the playerbase of CoH never even knew what Mids' was much less used any kind of standalone build planner at all. As you say it was a testament to the game that you could play it either as "casually" or as "seriously" as you wanted to.

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Why I had, I believe it was,

Why I had, I believe it was, level 25 Luck of the Gambler Def/+7.5% Recharge enhancements. I liked keeping the bonus to recharge when exempt down for as many TFs as possible.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Though it says a lot for CoH that probably most players didn't know or care about this aspect of the game and played successfully and had plenty of fun anyway.

That's an excellent point. I was one of those that knew but didn't care, and CoX was still my favourite game. That's part of the reason I'd prefer to see any sort of CoT Mids be player-created and not anything official from MWM. I don't want there to be even a hint of such a tool being required in order to play the game. I'd like to see it as a completely optional app that's there to help those who want it, but which never stands in the way of those who don't, and I think having someone other than MWM develop it would help ensure it remains in that state.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

That's an excellent point. I was one of those that knew but didn't care, and CoX was still my favourite game. That's part of the reason I'd prefer to see any sort of CoT Mids be player-created and not anything official from MWM. I don't want there to be even a hint of such a tool being required in order to play the game. I'd like to see it as a completely optional app that's there to help those who want it, but which never stands in the way of those who don't, and I think having someone other than MWM develop it would help ensure it remains in that state.

I hadn't thought about it that way. I had thought that an official, integrated planner could be nifty, but now that you put it that way I agree--best not.

But I'm gonna need me a CoT MIDS, so one of you with the chops get crackin once the game goes alpha/beta :P.

And while you're at it, throw up a CoT version of Virtueverse!

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Though it says a lot for CoH that probably most players didn't know or care about this aspect of the game and played successfully and had plenty of fun anyway.
That's an excellent point. I was one of those that knew but didn't care, and CoX was still my favourite game. That's part of the reason I'd prefer to see any sort of CoT Mids be player-created and not anything official from MWM. I don't want there to be even a hint of such a tool being required in order to play the game. I'd like to see it as a completely optional app that's there to help those who want it, but which never stands in the way of those who don't, and I think having someone other than MWM develop it would help ensure it remains in that state.

Hmm interesting idea. I understand not wanting to make it mandatory to have to min/max your character but I do believe that as video games have evolved so have the players. It doesn't appear to me that an integrated planner would be bad. As sophisticated as this game is going to be with the various secondary, tertiary and mastery powers as well the augment/refinement system and the multiple builds for PvE/PvP, an integrated planner could go a long way in helping many players truly understand how everything works together. Just my two cents. YMMV.

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I think it's a good point

I think it's a good point that having a planner be integrated into the game may lead to the perception that it's necessary to use. Having the game be completely accessible without the use of a planner is a good goal to have. I certainly knew people that played CoH that wanted nothing to do with Mids.

I was in between myself, in the sense that it depended on the character. While levelling I tended to slot whatever was convenient until the low- to mid-20s, at which point I would frankenslot from an assortment of set IOs I kept in my base. That gave me strong enhancement values and meant I didn't need to bother reslotting every few levels. I tended to fill new slots with odds and ends I had laying around or could pick up cheaply on the market. If however the character got to 50 and it was one I really cared about, I'd invest a significant amount of time into Mids to work out an ideal build.

I suspect that I would still find a planner a very nice QoL improvement for CoT, but probably not necessary in the early days. We won't be reaching level cap, we won't have sets, and from what I understand global bonuses come from the slots in your tertiary power sets, so it will probably be a case of a few larger-impact decisions compared to trying to find all the set bonuses out of individual powers with IOs. By the time the options expand I'm sure a planner will be available.

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Something I liked about CoH

Something I liked about CoH is you really didn't need to min/max. Almost anything was viable for a given value of viable. I guess that is to say I had no more troubles than expected.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Though it says a lot for CoH that probably most players didn't know or care about this aspect of the game and played successfully and had plenty of fun anyway.
That's an excellent point. I was one of those that knew but didn't care, and CoX was still my favourite game. That's part of the reason I'd prefer to see any sort of CoT Mids be player-created and not anything official from MWM. I don't want there to be even a hint of such a tool being required in order to play the game. I'd like to see it as a completely optional app that's there to help those who want it, but which never stands in the way of those who don't, and I think having someone other than MWM develop it would help ensure it remains in that state.

Having it created by the devs helps keep the players from constantly having to figure out numbers.

"New update. Turns out we were wrong on how the Accuracy of a power was calculated."

Stuff like that :p

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I have a friend who just

I have a friend who just played CoH for fun. No min/max, no mids. Just make the character cool and have fun. He didn't even use the keyboard much; he activated powers by clicking the power tray buttons with the mouse.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

I have a friend who just played CoH for fun. No min/max, no mids. Just make the character cool and have fun. He didn't even use the keyboard much; he activated powers by clicking the power tray buttons with the mouse.

I just click the power trays too.

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Hyperbolt wrote:
Hyperbolt wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
I have a friend who just played CoH for fun. No min/max, no mids. Just make the character cool and have fun. He didn't even use the keyboard much; he activated powers by clicking the power tray buttons with the mouse.
I just click the power trays too.

Si did i :)

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I was a bit 50/50 when it

I was a bit 50/50 when it came to keyboard and mouse. Numbers 1-5ish I'd use keys, anything else would be a click

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

I have a friend who just played CoH for fun. No min/max, no mids. Just make the character cool and have fun. He didn't even use the keyboard much; he activated powers by clicking the power tray buttons with the mouse.

That pretty much describes precisely how I played. Doesn't mean I didn't like to challenge myself (e.g. by trying to solo an AV with a Blaster), but I didn't like to know the numbers behind the powers. That would take away the magic for me. If CoT is somehow so complex that we have to use a planner, then it won't be the game I'm hoping for.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
I have a friend who just played CoH for fun. No min/max, no mids. Just make the character cool and have fun. He didn't even use the keyboard much; he activated powers by clicking the power tray buttons with the mouse.
That pretty much describes precisely how I played. Doesn't mean I didn't like to challenge myself (e.g. by trying to solo an AV with a Blaster), but I didn't like to know the numbers behind the powers. That would take away the magic for me. If CoT is somehow so complex that we have to use a planner, then it won't be the game I'm hoping for.

If they go the way CoH did then the only ones that really "need" planners are the min-maxers, the rest can just slot what they feel is right or just want to improve. Sure, CoT might initially be a little more complex than what CoH was with having augments and refinements coupled with the power set and global slots but once that sinks in there should be no need for a planner to just be able to play the game without much trouble.

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I think we're in good shape

I think we're in good shape here. As a spiritual successor to CoH I think MWM gets it, and they seem to have all the systems in place that made CoH payable in a very broad range of ways. And on my end, SOMEBODY will build a MIDS equivalent.

Just FYI, I wasn't a hardcore player. I played about 5 hrs per week on average. I didn't PvP much or do any pylon challenges or solo TF's or anything. And I always chose powers based on character concept.

But I did want my heros to be bad ass :). And I enjoyed the puzzle aspect of buildcraft and getting the stuff I needed gave some occasional focus to playtime. CoH was always fun so it was never a grind.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

And I always chose powers based on character concept.

I was too. But as we'll have a character slot at each lvl 50, i think i'll think about the numbers to not waste time :D

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TitansCity wrote:
TitansCity wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
And I always chose powers based on character concept.
I was too. But as we'll have a character slot at each lvl 50, i think i'll think about the numbers to not waste time :D

I'm sure that the free character slot opens when you get one to lvl 50, but I'm also sure that you will be able to pay for a character slot at any time.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I'm sure that the free character slot opens when you get one to lvl 50, but I'm also sure that you will be able to pay for a character slot at any time.

But i'm not sure the monthly subscribtion will bring a character slot each month ^^
Hum no, i'm silly... the monthly paiment give some "stars" and with those sstars we could buy slots... :D You are right ! I don't need numbers , just aesthetics !

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