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How should the PvP phase play? Give your visions here

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Tannim222
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Level brakcets are a range of

Level brakcets are a range of character levels where pvp is made possible. You may have brackets from levels 1-10 for example and 11-18 for the next. These are just examples.

They are there to prevent high level characters from definitively stomping on lower level characters.
It also imparts a range where there is some parity among characters such as the total number of applicable powers, total number of applicable augment sockets, and also allows functional combat through a system we use called the Level Lens which dictates how power effectiveness scales between the level of the attacker and target.

If the concern is being out of the level range of current combat going on and want to either tip scale of engagement in either direction or evrn the engangement - group envite to super-sidekick to the level bracket of the engagement.

Each player can set to auto-accept invites or a quick tap if the agree button and now you are grouped up.

I never said ganking would ever go away. Only that it will be more limited to create fairer engagements within certain bounds.

And if say a level 10 were to stomp 1s repratedly - they wouldn't be improving their rank very much but would be gaining Notoriety - making them more of a target by others. And that is if both characters are the same rank. Things change if there is a rank difference within the level bracket.


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Amerikatt
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My vision is to have PvPers

My vision is to have PvPers stabbing each other with shrimp forks!

*noms on mountains of shrimp*

Just a cat from another star!
Impulse King
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Since you can level up from

Since you can level up from PvP alone, what happens to existing Notoriety when you level up into the next bracket? (Say going from 10 to 11 in the prior example.)

Tannim222
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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

Since you can level up from PvP alone, what happens to existing Notoriety when you level up into the next bracket? (Say going from 10 to 11 in the prior example.)

Notoriety is the "bounty" one has from consistently defeating other players. It stays with the character until the "bounty" is claimed.


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Planet10
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Ok, up to this point there

Edit: Basically ignore this post. I was confused.

Ok, up to this point there have not been clear definitions for the terminology you have been using Tannim.

  • Regular PvE Level == PvP Rank
  • PvP Level Bracket == a range of PvE Levels == a range of PvP Ranks
  • Gaining Notoriety increases your PvP Rank (this means your PvE Level increases)
  • A Level Lens means scaling your powers to your target

You can group up with players outside of your level bracket to sidekick them and I get dropped down to their level bracket?
When I downgrade to their level bracket:
(1) Do I gain/lose Notoriety at my normal rate or new temporary rate?
(2) Do my powers get scaled down to their level or do my powers/slots get rolled back to what they would have been in that bracket?
When I upgrade to their level bracket, do my powers scale up and how am I compensated for not having more slots or powers?

Since level equates to what could possibly be effective in the bracket, how do you keep things even when there is no way to guarantee how a person selects powers and slots enhancements?

What happens when a player reaches PvE Level Cap?
Do they still gain Notoriety?
(A) If so, what is it used for since you can't gain any more levels/ranks?
(B) If not, their motivation to PvP is diminished because there is no reward. The only thing left is to work on badges and achievements.

Tannim222
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Character levels is separate

Character levels is separate from PvP Rank.
PvP level bracket is a range of character levels for combat engagement. Again selarate from rank.
Gaining Notoriety does not increase your tank.
Increasing rank happens as you earn pvp achievements - which includes wins. Rank matters for earning pvp-xp when entering combat with others - too far out of rank and you don't earn much pvp xp, closer to your rank and above earns more .
Getting too many wins - especially against lower ranks earns Notoriiety - which acts as a multiplier of the character's "worth"'when defeated.
Earning rank (unlocking achivements) can yield a bonus currency which can be used to exchange for rewards - such as character xp to level your character.

Side-kicking down does scale powers - removed powers not available at thatt level and reduces improvements to powers (how they are socketed).

Side-kicking up for pvp does not give you more powers or soxkets, and only scales the powers available by level mod. Unless you are sure about the strategy and applition of side-kicking up a lower level for pvp - it is probaly unwise for pvp - it is there because you can still engage with pve content in the pvp phase.

There is no way of "keeping things even" which is what most players think "balance" means. For games like this balance actually means the range within bounds of performance. Eaxh level bracket will determine the possible bounds. Yes, higher level players will have an edge even within their brakcet - but not an out-right "i win" scenario. And even within the brakcets - winning over the lower level ranges consistently (if similar ranks) will result in a rank disparity which means less rank improvement by taking on those lower levels - and if the behavior continues - increases the winner's notoriety - making them more of a target.

PvE cap has nothing to do with Notoriety. You can still earn jt - but you shouldn't want to earn high notoriety unless you want to make yourself a target for others.

Ranks can be any amount we want separate from
Pve leves. But even kf there is a "cap" we can "loop" the pvp "xp" gain to use for providin opportunity to earn the "currency" to exchange for other rewards.

And once again - this is only the start - and for open world pvp. There may be other events and modes for pvp created after launch and into the future.


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Planet10
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You need to provide an

You need to provide an extensive explanation of the Rank system then Tannim222. There is so much cross over terminology and mixed examples that it is difficult to make sense of it all.

Please outline the entire framework and provide definitions for the terminology so we can understand what is being discussed.

After I walked through this progression I got confused about the function of Rank and the usage of Level Brackets and how pvp-xp is earned. The only link between PvP & PvE is the maybe possible option to purchase a xp widget with currency. With all of this information scattered over the thread in little snippets it is difficult to see the entire picture that MWM has planned for pvp.

Tannim222 in Post #132 wrote:

Just to clear things up.
Rank reduces over time over consecutive losses.

Tannim222 in Post #136 wrote:

Rank matters for determining who is "worth" your time eliminating or earning "pvp xp" which can be used for obtaining rewards.
Particularly for achievements which may require their own "xp meter" to advance. Or if we provide an alternative method of character advancement.

Tannim222 in Post #142 wrote:

Multiple mmo pvp players in many mmos and devs have stated that pvp should provide some form of reward. I don't think that is ever going away. In a game where can't loot your defeated opponent, having zero reward disincentivizes pvp altogether.
What we can do is keep the barrier of entry low.
Seamless mechanics helps that. Bracketed levels of possible contact does that. Bounty systems does that.
Giving a base reason to engage pvp with its own method of possible advancement (where pve will have one as well) and achievements does that.

Tannim222 in Post #149 wrote:

Ranks is also being used to provide alternative method of advancement. You can literally level up your character through pvp without ever having to pve.
You can enter the pvp phase, never enter a mission, only engage in pvp, and still advance your character.

Tannim222 in Post #162 wrote:

Ranks are not the same as levels. They are meant to be more fluid, and an indicator of your relative success within open-world pvp.
Over time in pvp through earning achievements you earn a (currency) which can be used to exchange for rewards - it can be made possible to allow one of those rewards to be xp to level up a character. Rank can determine how much it little of the (currency) is obtained each time an action is taken toward an achievement.

Tannim222 Post #182 wrote:

Level brackets are a range of character levels where pvp is made possible.
They are there to prevent high level characters from definitively stomping on lower level characters.
It also imparts a range where there is some parity among characters such as the total number of applicable powers, total number of applicable augment sockets, and also allows functional combat through a system we use called the Level Lens which dictates how power effectiveness scales between the level of the attacker and target.

Tannim222 Post #murder wrote:

Character levels is separate from PvP Rank.
PvP level bracket is a range of character levels for combat engagement. Again separate from rank.
Gaining Notoriety does not increase your tank.
Increasing rank happens as you earn pvp achievements - which includes wins. Rank matters for earning pvp-xp when entering combat with others - too far out of rank and you don't earn much pvp xp, closer to your rank and above earns more.

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*continues to poke PvPers

*continues to poke PvPers with her Impervium shrimp fork*

Just a cat from another star!
Tannim222
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Character level: a character

Character level: a character's level.

Experience Points: earned to raise character level.

PvP level brakcets: a range of character levels in which combat is possible in open-world pvp. This is to diminish the possibility of higher level characters gsnking lower level characters and also provide bounds of performance within which fairer cobat engsgements may occur.

PvP XP: (term may change), point system used to guage pvp rank.

PvP Rank: an indicator of successfulness in PvP which is used as a modifier to determine the value of a target for purposes of open-world pvp. Rank can raise through sucess and diminish through failure. Rank loss does not occur as quickly as gain. Taking on ranks closer to and above can also result in earning better "pvp currency".

PvP Achievements: various achievements earned through completing pvp-related challenges. Some may be permanent, others may have their counter reset after a faiure to meet the challenge. These achievements may act as a modifer to earning pvp xp. Achievemrnts can include anything from win streaks to assisting in wins (via buffs and debuffs), and more.

Notoriety: This is earned through successful pvp - the more consecutive wins eanred, the more Notoriety gained. Taking on lower pvp-ranked targets will result in higher gain. Taking on closer to your rank and higher ranked targets will earn less. Notoriety is a bounty earned for defeating the player carryjng Notoriety. It acts as a modifier for pvp xp earned for defeating that target.

There will also be a pvp "currency" which can be saved and exchanged in order to purchase pve rewards including possibly pve xp.

Teaming with others will use the side-kick system (auto-adjust to the character level of engagement).

Side-kick up affects character level and modifies existing powers accordjngly. Side-kick doen restricts powers and reduces improvements to them according to character level.

Teaming will provide bonuses for earning pvp xp, and share the reward for defeating opponents.

The system as a whole is to encourage playing against similar rank. Lower ranks can take on the risk of hihger ranks for the opportunity of higher gains with less notoriety. Higher ranks against lower ranks don't gain much toward their rank improvement, still earn toward their achievements (which over time may yeild a better bonus toward rank xp), but gain more notoriety as a result.


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I like that those who 'take

I like that those who 'take on' lower level opponents in PvP gain more notoriety, thereby making them more attractive targets in return, via bounties.

What does 'take on' mean? Because I can see a bunch of lower level allies or even Alts of your PvP main being used to attack a potential target character to build its notoriety in order to be a fatter lamb for the slaughter.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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*stabs Huckleberry's ankle

*stabs Huckleberry's ankle with her Impervium Shrimp Fork!*

*wonders if Huckleberry is related to Boysenberry*

*removes the fork and scampers away*

Just a cat from another star!
Tannim222
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I like that those who 'take on' lower level opponents in PvP gain more notoriety, thereby making them more attractive targets in return, via bounties.
What does 'take on' mean? Because I can see a bunch of lower level allies or even Alts being used to attack a character to build its notoriety in order to be a fatter lamb for the slaughter.

Sorry, by take on I mean engage in combat. If the lower ranked players are initiating combat - it does not affect the higher ranked player's notoriety for success. Indeed it should follow - who started the fight.

It also affects players who jump into a fight alrwady underway. Say a rank 10 sees two rank 2s in a fight. The10 takes out one of the 2s. He and the other 2 share the reward, the 10 gettting a modified-reduced portion of the reward - but since he initiated the attack vs a lower ranked target - he gets more Notoriety.


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Thank you Tannim, that levels

Thank you Tannim, that levels the playing field. I think those descriptions frame the conversation.

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Amerikatt wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:

*wonders if Huckleberry is related to Boysenberry*

If you find one that tastes like Olallieberry I'll hold them down while you fork them.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Amerikatt wrote:
*wonders if Huckleberry is related to Boysenberry*
If you find one that tastes like Olallieberry I'll hold them down while you fork them.

Mmmmm...Olallieberry....


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One thing I do wonder, is if

One thing I do wonder, is if two players decide to pvp against each other, if effects from other players or buffs will be disabled? If a bunch of people are standing around watching a duel, there is no way of knowing if one of those bystanders is a teammate of one of the duelists and therefore affecting that teammate with aoe team buffs?

Tannim222
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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

One thing I do wonder, is if two players decide to pvp against each other, if effects from other players or buffs will be disabled? If a bunch of people are standing around watching a duel, there is no way of knowing if one of those bystanders is a teammate of one of the duelists and therefore affecting that teammate with aoe team buffs?

If the nearby characters are in the level brackets, they can use powers to affect another battle. The others nearby don't have to be team members affect the course of combat either. That's part of the risk of open world pvp. Going lone wolf is truly dangerous.

You have to be willing to risk loss and be sure of your skills in using your build.

Though...I can inquire about adding ui to target field / player info (as in above the player's head) which indicates if they are grouped or not. I'm uncertain if it is necessarily best to reduce the risk. It is something which warrants research.


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The more I think about it,

The more I think about it, the more it looks like City of Gangbangers. You could almost script in a graffiti option where someone's handle gets written and then XXXX over when they fall. I see some appeal but not as much as I had hoped considering you had a blank slate, studied the issue carefully and an had an opportunity to integrate a wide range of things in the initial design. The dichotomy in philosophy in the approach between PvE and PvP is so great it leaves little wonder why there are so many PvP haters in this genre. I feel bad about putting something down before I have a chance to even try it.... but maybe something better will come of this discussion in future PvP iterations.

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Fire Away wrote:
Fire Away wrote:

The more I think about it, the more it looks like City of Gangbangers. You could almost script in a graffiti option where someone's handle gets written and then XXXX over when they fall. I see some appeal but not as much as I had hoped considering you had a blank slate, studied the issue carefully and an had an opportunity to integrate a wide range of things in the initial design. The dichotomy in philosophy in the approach between PvE and PvP is so great it leaves little wonder why there are so many PvP haters in this genre. I feel bad about putting something down before I have a chance to even try it.... but maybe something better will come of this discussion in future PvP iterations.

Understandable Firaway, open world pvp isn't for everyone.

Here is the thing, however, MMOs have the potential to offer something not always available anywhere else; larger scale battles.

Since the game isnstarting with open-world pvp using the pve maps, the intent is to give pvpers some purpose to pvp (other than the thrill of virtual combat vs another thinking person), reduce the barrier of entry, and provide some safe guards to encourage certain behaviors.

Other types of games are better designed to cover 1v1 and small group battles. MMOs attempt to offers these with varying degrees of success, but none do these better than the games designed for those smaller scale pvp.

As time goes on, we can explore letting players make ugc pvp maps and provide instances events for smaller scale combat. Having open world large scale pvp is planned as well. We will also eventually have noncombat pvp.

As for purely 1v1, dueling in pve will set the duelists in a unique pvp state in the pve phase which will prevent outside interference (from players, still possible with npcs). It is too easy to abuse to use in the pvp phase however.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Here is the thing, however, MMOs have the potential to offer something not always available anywhere else; larger scale battles.
Since the game is starting with open-world pvp using the pve maps, the intent is to give pvpers some purpose to pvp (other than the thrill of virtual combat vs another thinking person), reduce the barrier of entry, and provide some safe guards to encourage certain behaviors.
Other types of games are better designed to cover 1v1 and small group battles. MMOs attempt to offers these with varying degrees of success, but none do these better than the games designed for those smaller scale pvp.
As time goes on, we can explore letting players make ugc pvp maps and provide instances events for smaller scale combat. Having open world large scale pvp is planned as well. We will also eventually have noncombat pvp.

As stated, the reason to PvP at CoT launch is to juice the player base for as much PvP Rank-xp as possible in order to rank up and generate currency to be spent. PvP will be on rails that will have the real possibility to break the user's continuity (flow or 4th wall or whatever you want to call it) when they slam head on into the Level Bracket.

Given the current understanding of the structure for the opposition, everyone not in your League (or Super Team or minimally speaking, your group) will appear as an enemy. It will take a lot of player effort to discover the active Leagues that are operating in the PvP phase so they aren't just running around as juicy targets for the regulars. There is a possibility for vigilante groups to assert dominance in this situation (which could be interesting), but then you might be at the mercy of the person(s) who manage the League.

UGC pvp maps are essentially queued battlegrounds and do not address the issue of open world pvp. It just shields them from the PvP phase.

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Planet10 wrote:
Planet10 wrote:

Given the current understanding of the structure for the opposition, everyone not in your League (or Super Team or minimally speaking, your group) will appear as an enemy. It will take a lot of player effort to discover the active Leagues that are operating in the PvP phase so they aren't just running around as juicy targets for the regulars. There is a possibility for vigilante groups to assert dominance in this situation (which could be interesting), but then you might be at the mercy of the person(s) who manage the League.

It's possible you're right, but I don't think I agree. Or at least I disagree on what "a lot of player effort" may be in this context. Remember we will still only have one server even if PvP is in it's own phase. (Side question! If the starter area has multiple instances, will the PvP phase NEED to have an equal amount of instances?) You can expect Super Team recruiters to be active and able to answer questions about their own Super Team and/or any Leagues they may be part of. And if they lie, the rest of the zone will call them out on it.

The dominance of various groups will ebb and flow as their membership is available. If any one group is able to dominate consistently, opposition will rise and the issue will self solve. Only talented organizers/leaders can alter this. (Until another talented person takes an interest.)

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Dueling Shrimp Forks ... at

Dueling Shrimp Forks ... at dawn!

*plays opening chords of "Dueling Shrimp Forks"*

Just a cat from another star!
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Hey Tannim, will we have an

Hey Tannim, will we have an option to set Duel Invitations to auto-decline? I remember playing other MMOs with duel mechanics and being spammed by folks who just wanted to fight.

Spurn all ye kindle.

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

Hey Tannim, will we have an option to set Duel Invitations to auto-decline? I remember playing other MMOs with duel mechanics and being spammed by folks who just wanted to fight.

I don't see a reason why we can't provide a toggle option.

Impulse King wrote:

(Side question! If the starter area has multiple instances, will the PvP phase NEED to have an equal amount of instances?)

Each area map can spawn as many instances as needed no matter the phase.


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Amerikatt wrote:
Amerikatt wrote:

*plays opening chords of "Dueling Shrimp Forks"*

*Twang!?*

I'm allergic to shrimp! Take your deadly weapons and go find me a steak-knife!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Amerikatt wrote:
*plays opening chords of "Dueling Shrimp Forks"*
*Twang!?*
I'm allergic to shrimp! Take your deadly weapons and go find me a steak-knife!
Be Well!
Fireheart

*gives a butter knife to Fireheart*

Just a cat from another star!
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Hah! Now I can spread the

Hah! Now I can spread the word about our Lord Butter to all the dinner-rolls!

Be Well!
Fireheart

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*groans*

*groans*

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Well, I guess PvP should play

Well, I guess PvP should play out where I don't have to deal with it. So all the PvPers should be sent to Labrador, or something.

I'm glad that they'll have freedom to roam in their own place and some game mechanics to encourage them to play nice. Also, it's good to have rewards for doing your thing, so that's nice too.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Honestly, PvEers hating on

Honestly, PvEers hating on PvPers is the same as PvPers hating on PvEers. It's not which one you are, it's if you pick a side and choose to hate. PvP or PvE--the same lowest common denominator is the haters.

Fireheart has it right, live and let live. Don't begrudge others living elsewhere doing things that you don't approve of if they aren't harming anyone who doesn't actively choose to participate.

And, again, this is coming from someone who PvPs between 1% and 5% of the time at most.

Ok, let me give an analogy to gain some perspective.

Some people who do martial arts or boxing or MMA or whatever choose to spar or compete. Or hell, even rock climbing or base jumping, any activity that has a significant risk. In these activities, they could face bad, mean people and/or get hurt--perhaps even to the point of needing surgery or (rare, but) being paralyzed or dying. But they know that going in and choose to do it.

Now, if they are mentally incompetent to make decisions or were forced into sparring or competition or base jumping against their will, or they somehow had no sense of the consequences, that would be horrible and their victimizers who forced or deceived them into doing it would deserve "hate" (not that I support hate in any form, just using the term). But, if they are mentally sound and knowingly accept the risks and willingly participate, that is different.

Now some still don't condone or accept such activities even if they don't personally have to participate and even if it's others participating as knowing, consensual participants who are sound of mind and body. This WOULD BE analogous with disproving of PvP that you don't have to ever engage in--except for the fact that you you can't get physically hurt or killed in PvP. All that can happen is not having fun or getting your feelings hurt.

So, if you disprove of Boxing or MMA or any dangerous activity in general that you don't personally participate in, then it MIGHT make sense that you would feel the same about PvP. But, even if that were the case, I personally disagree.

If you don't have to do it and others do it consensually, and ESPECIALLY IF the worst consequence is people not having fun or getting their feelings hurt, then let em do their thing.

Trust me, they'll stop if they don't like it.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Preach it, Empyrean! I don't

Preach it, Empyrean! I don't get the hate either. That would be like me hating someone who eats broccoli just because I find it repugnant. If they're not trying to make me eat it (I'm looking at you, Mom!) then what do I have to complain about?

In the old game, I didn't PvP much, but I loved the PvP zones anyway. Why? Because I found it challenging to try to go in and get my Shivan or nukes without encountering any enemy players. I got a buzz from the added chance of a PvP fight that I would most probably lose. I have to say that, from what I've heard so far about the way PvP will be implemented in CoT, there seems to be little reason I will ever engage in it, but I have no problem with its existence or those who choose to participate, as long as they leave me alone.

In that light, I'd be very appreciative if that toggle could be implemented, Tannim.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Amerikatt
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I do not and will not

I do not and will not begrudge people the opportunity to PvP to their heart's delight.

Although my exposure to PvP has been rare, it has also been chocked full of noxious, self-centered, and pathetic jerks whose only feeling of worth and self-fulfillment has been through ganking (both solo and in gank gangs) other people and then trying to somehow justify their heinous and egregious behavior by stating that that is the nature of PvP or that they are simply "roleplaying".

On the flip side, however, are the decent people who PvP but are willing to set aside the negativity of the immoral minority and actually *help* non-PvPers who are in PvP zones simply because they were trying to get a PvE-centric item. Those decent folk are, likely, in the *majority*, but are overshadowed by the behavior of rancid losers, who do their darnedest to ruin the reps of decent PvPers and, in so doing, also adversely affecting PvP as an alternate gaming resource.

Just a cat from another star!
Cinnder
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I would have been pretty

I would have been pretty disappointed if another player helped me get my Shivan or nukes in the old game instead of attacking me, especially if they were on the other side of the red/blue divide. Just cuz I was there for a PvE goal doesn't mean they had any obligation to ignore the concept behind a PvP zone. Attacking other players in a PvP zone isn't morally reprehensible; it's what the zone is designed and intended for.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Amerikatt
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

I would have been pretty disappointed if another player helped me get my Shivan or nukes in the old game instead of attacking me, especially if they were on the other side of the red/blue divide. Just cuz I was there for a PvE goal doesn't mean they had any obligation to ignore the concept behind a PvP zone. Attacking other players in a PvP zone isn't morally reprehensible; it's what the zone is designed and intended for.

I concur that entering a known PvP area would mean that -- in most likelihood -- a person will be attacked.

It was wrong for the CoH Devs to place badges in PvP zones just so that PvE players will have to enter those areas. BAAAAD DEVS!!!

Overall, though, it was reassuring that PvP players were willing to override the reptilian parts of their brain and express their humanity. It did not hurt them *and* it helped to assuage some of the negative rep which was perpetrated by the rude players.

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Cinnder
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I can understand that some

I can understand that some folks didn't like having PvE goals in the PvP zones, but personally I thought it was a good design decision. It gave me a reason to go in there.

Coming back to Empyrean's point, it's not helpful to insinuate that people doing exactly what a PvP zone is designed for are reptilian or otherwise less than human.

Spurn all ye kindle.

Planet10
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Quote:
Quote:

It was wrong for the CoH Devs to place badges in PvP zones just so that PvE players will have to enter those areas. BAAAAD DEVS!!!

Please leave this type of commentary to the other thread. That is why this thread had to be created in the first place (reference the OP).

Amerikatt
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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:

... it's not helpful to insinuate that people doing exactly what a PvP zone is designed for are reptilian or otherwise less than human.

At no point have I *ever* stated or implied that PvPers are less than human. If you Google "reptilian brain", you will find that I was talking about the limbic system of the brain, which deals with more primitive instincts, such as flight or flight and survival behavior.

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Impulse King
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I may not choose to PvP much

I may not choose to PvP much on my own, but info on the PvP aspects of the game still has value to me just as all other game info does. It's easy to anticipate that as a Super Team or League leader I will get questions on all areas of the game. It's natural to want to be able to answer on the basics as best possible. For what I don't know, I will have global channels to fall back on. If someone wants to join a more PvP centric Super Team or League I will tell them which is the best fit and wish them well. That's just a good way to keep a customer happy with the game. And the more customers the game has, the more we ALL win.

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I concur, Impulse King!

I concur, Impulse King!

*stabs at a platter of King Prawns with her Impervium Shrimp Fork*

*stabity stab stab!*

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Fire Away
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My point about PvP "haters"

My point about PvP "haters" was actually about population size more than anything else. IIRC in CoH, PvPers were around 5%. Gosh, I would think you could do almost anything in an MMO and get 5% participation. Some people have already implied in this thread that it may not be worth it for the devs to invest a whole lot into PvP due to its small population. Well, I was kind of hoping given CoT could do "anything" on the PvP side, that they could come up with something out of the gate that would raise that number. I am sorry to say I don't believe this initial offering is it.

I am no gaming genius and I don't have a crystal ball that works either. But, it's not very difficult to see if you (1) take a game with CoT's basic PvE premise (i.e. pug friendly, anything goes in terms of build and play style, you "win" much more than "lose" even when the odds in terms of numbers are drastically against you, etc.) and (2) you introduce a CoT PvP premise (i.e. not for everybody, specialized builds, there is a bounty on your head, the probability that you lose is much greater than you win if you are a novice, you will be ganged up on and beaten into submission, etc.) then the appeal of PvP is going to remain very low. The effect on the average player leaving a CoT PvE environment and entering a PvP environment has got to be shocking at best and devastating brutal at worse. Heck, the devs have gone as a far as purposely blur the lines between "hero" and "villain" in an attempt to condone the resultant behaviors.

The question becomes "Is all of this OK?". Because if it is then we have to be willing to continue to accept a 5% player population and horror stories of mistreatment (which is a great definition of the opposite of fun). The easy way out is to just say "We are going to encourage that segment of the population to act that way and if you don't like it you don't have to participate". The greater challenge would be to find other avenues for players to compete against players that offer a higher probability of enjoyment to more people. I hope the latter eventually becomes a reality.

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In DC Universe Online, there

In DC Universe Online, there were certain PvP events at certain times, and that was generally shown on-screen as "Jewel Heist in 5 minutes" if you were in the Diamond District zone (if I recall properly). In addition, there were glowing Wanted posters outside of the police stations which said something like, "Capture/Defeat X number of new criminals" and it gave the level range (within X of your player).

I don't know the specifics of those game mechanics, but I vaguely recall those things from when I played DCUO.

[See? Even *I* can be helpful when it comes to PvP!]

*stabs a Tiger Prawn with her Impervium Shrimp Fork*

MRRRWWWEEERRREEEK! ["I stab at thee!" *stabity stab stab*]

Just a cat from another star!
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Fireaway, your concerns are

Fireaway, your concerns are noted. I wish we had the development resources to being more to pvp for launch.

There are a couple of things to keep in mind with the current system:

We are designing mechanics to be agnostic between pve and pvp. To that extent, power effects affect npcs the same way they affect pcs. We are including pvp metrics in pve design.

What this means is that builds won't need to be as specialized for pvp of you are looking backwards to CoH for comparison. Players will certainly optimize builds, but since the metrics of performance in pvp are imparted in the pve design, the differences won't be as large.

While certaibly the open world aspect will lend itself to players grouping to attack others, the same is true for grouping as a form of defense. That leads to the massively in the M for MMORPG for pvp.

Your assumption is correct, regarding being defeated for often in pvp compaired to pve. Nothing will change that - it is in part of the nature of pvp. It is a matter of having appropriate expectations. There are those who take losing in a video game personally even if the winner isn't mean spirited about the win. People who don't enjoy pvp due to these aspexts by comparing pvp to pve will never be satisfied with combat-based pvp.

The best we can do is to lower thr barrier of entry for those who are not used to pvp. That is why we've included pvp metrics, agnsotic combat effects, a specific option to make a pvp build (if one is desired) from the pve build, having brackets of engagement to reduce the range of performance between levels, and the Notoriety system to place a target on those who win too often.

There isn't much else we could do to entice pve players to pvp other than make the mistake of placing specidic rewards only obtainable in the pvp phase. We've seen this attempt in the past and already know it failed to increase the population of those who reguarly pvp in a significant statisitcal measure. For the most part, it created hostility between to the two player types, and earned ite from pve players toward the devs for the attempt.

As such, I don't beleive the attempt here is to purposefully increase the pvp popluation by trying to entice pve players into pvp. Instead it is to make the basis if pvp in an open world playable in as fair if a way possible with all of our mechanics and systems, so that for those who enjoy the massive aspect of an mmo, and enjoy pvp - they will have their place.

Then if they're happy with how the game plays (in other words, the open-world pvp is successful), they will build their own community which has thr potential to grow of its own accord by bringing in fresh players who enjoy pvp.

There aren't many games which offer the possibility of multi-group player combat, that plays well, with a high degree of player customization in appearance of character, character abilitiy appearance, character functionalitu, and a wide range of character mobility. If we are successful in those aspects, players who like all that will come to play the game.

Again, keep in mind, we have to get the basics down for launch. As time goes on, we want to include more for pvp from open world pvp events, instenced pvp combat events, letting players make instenced pvp maps, and plenty of non-combat forms of pvp.


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Impulse King
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I've suggested this before in

I've suggested this before in other threads. Characters new to PvP should be told that "In a FAIR fight, you die half of the time." The intent being to make players aware that death in PvP is far more common than death in PvE. With luck this reduces the tendancy to equate death with being a bad player ( as opposed to new) and the resulting attempts to maintain self image by placing blame everywhere else. Adjusting expectations won't keep EVERYone from making ridiculous excuses, but it should reduce the occurrence.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

I've suggested this before in other threads. Characters new to PvP should be told that "In a FAIR fight, you die half of the time." The intent being to make players aware that death in PvP is far more common than death in PvE. With luck this reduces the tendancy to equate death with being a bad player ( as opposed to new) and the resulting attempts to maintain self image by placing blame everywhere else. Adjusting expectations won't keep EVERYone from making ridiculous excuses, but it should reduce the occurrence.

The problem is the player's perception of "fairness". Players will percieve many things as unfair, from connection rates to servers to "balance issues" with powers / characters / classes / environment. Even when a dev can provide information which indicates a statistical norm for those aspects of design, perception of the player may not accept the hard truth and the person will infuse their analysis based not on the statisitical data, but on their own biases.

Basically, even if a drv could guaranty a 50/50 win / loss ratio, a player may not accept that everytime they lose. Especially when the loss is to another person on the other end of the interwebs.


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Impulse King
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Impulse King wrote:
I've suggested this before in other threads. Characters new to PvP should be told that "In a FAIR fight, you die half of the time." The intent being to make players aware that death in PvP is far more common than death in PvE. With luck this reduces the tendancy to equate death with being a bad player ( as opposed to new) and the resulting attempts to maintain self image by placing blame everywhere else. Adjusting expectations won't keep EVERYone from making ridiculous excuses, but it should reduce the occurrence.
The problem is the player's perception of "fairness". Players will percieve many things as unfair, from connection rates to servers to "balance issues" with powers / characters / classes / environment. Even when a dev can provide information which indicates a statistical norm for those aspects of design, perception of the player may not accept the hard truth and the person will infuse their analysis based not on the statisitical data, but on their own biases.
Basically, even if a drv could guaranty a 50/50 win / loss ratio, a player may not accept that everytime they lose. Especially when the loss is to another person on the other end of the interwebs.

Entirely agreed. I'm only hoping to help with the issue, but it cannot be solved entirely as the human psyche doesn't work that way.

Planet10
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I have another suggestion for

I have another suggestion for the PvP phase in this thread.

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