Let's Argue: PvP

292 posts / 0 new
Last post
Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Are you talking about PvP

Are you talking about PvP zones or the arena, cause KR wasn't a PvP zone and it didn't have an arena as far as I remember.

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 16 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Please forgive me, but every

Please forgive me, but every time you say 'KR' I imagine Kings Row and I don't remember any PvP there. Which of these PvP zones is 'KR'? https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/PvP_Zones

{Edit} Scooped a bit.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Impulse King
Offline
Last seen: 6 hours 16 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 18:55
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I feel like im the only hardcore PvPer here...no one to relate to...
Were you hard core PvP back in CoH too? If so, you must have felt somewhat in the minority there too, because you were almost rare as a unicorn :P.
I know they existed and even met a couple, but they couldn't have been more than a tiny percentage of the population.
And by this I mean truly hard core CoH PvPers, not people who just PvP'd occasionally.
Yeah I guess compared to everyone on the server we were a small minority. I know every time I logged into KR there were always a few people which was always enough to have fun with but when it really got packed it truly became an awesome experience.

I remember some of those! 50+ folks in Bloody Bay and everyone having a blast! It tended to focus around the hero/villain bases depending on who had advantage of course. I only found out about them through broadcast announcements in Cap. Now that more folks know of global channels, this should be slightly easier to accomplish in CoT.

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Oh shoot I forgot the name of

Oh shoot I forgot the name of the zone haha. I think I went through KR to get there. I cant pull up the link im at work. but its was a level 25 PVP zone I think.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.
I'd remind them if they're build is bad (some PvE had bad PvE builds, but they could get by or they teamed) or they're just not that good, they can and will lose. :p
While I don't disagree, and folks who stick around will find this out, you won't get folks TO stick around if you unload all of that on them at the start. As I said, the intent is to manage expectations. And to do that well, it has to be in digestible chunks. It's not good for PvP in this game if casuals think they suck horribly when no one has shown them how PvP and PvE differ.
PvP builds, and IO's and such were all well and good, but I'm going to break a forum taboo and say you didn't need them if all you were doing was dueling some casual friends. (For myself, I never worried about such things. Sometimes I'd equip a proc that dropped but that's generally as far as I went.) They simply weren't required to enter PvP. And that's all I want to happen with this. Getting folks to try. They can learn or not after that. Heck let them figure stuff out on their own and they may teach YOU something someday. :)

When one friend would have a crap build and the other wouldn't, it made the one with a crap build not want to pvp.

As was told to me often "I want to lose, so I don't pvp"

Which is also true, gotta be willing to lose, when you pvp. Of course, some just go on and whine whine whine about it or get friends to help them for being beat. :p They know who they are.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Oh shoot I forgot the name of the zone haha. I think I went through KR to get there. I cant pull up the link im at work. but its was a level 25 PVP zone I think.

You are talking about Siren's Call and it doesn't connect to Kings Row, you get to it from Steel Canyon or Sharkhead Isle.
You could get to Warburg from KR but the level limits there were 30-38 (I think, might have been 36).

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Oh shoot I forgot the name of the zone haha. I think I went through KR to get there. I cant pull up the link im at work. but its was a level 25 PVP zone I think.
You are talking about Siren's Call and it doesn't connect to Kings Row, you get to it from Steel Canyon or Sharkhead Isle.
You could get to Warburg from KR but the level limits there were 30-38 (I think, might have been 36).

SIRENS CALL! YESSSS that's the one!

If my memory serves me, I played on the Freedom server with a plant/thorn dom named xXDarkThornXx and a stalker named DarkBlade. My dom was so much fun to PVP with. He had a really good hold and the impale did a great deal of dmg. My stalker was good because I had him IOd enough so that most blasters with perception couldn't see him so id use him to just hang out in the area and not worry about getting ganked.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 18 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
I would enjoy PvP in COT if

I would enjoy PvP in COT if it were appropriate to a story.

In other words, if a character (or party) of ill intent was trying to build a nude bomb and set it off during the mayor's election, another character (party?) could try to stop it.

In scenarios like this it would be voluntary participation, and defeating your opponents in combat is only a portion if the conditions of victory.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 17 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I would enjoy PvP in COT if it were appropriate to a story.
In other words, if a character (or party) of ill intent was trying to build a nude bomb and set it off during the mayor's election, another character (party?) could try to stop it.
In scenarios like this it would be voluntary participation, and defeating your opponents in combat is only a portion if the conditions of victory.

A... nude bomb? o.O

Psycout
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 12 hours ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 09/04/2014 - 12:01
Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I feel like im the only hardcore PvPer here...no one to relate to...
Were you hard core PvP back in CoH too? If so, you must have felt somewhat in the minority there too, because you were almost rare as a unicorn :P.
I know they existed and even met a couple, but they couldn't have been more than a tiny percentage of the population.
And by this I mean truly hard core CoH PvPers, not people who just PvP'd occasionally.

I really miss CoH pvp. I built my characters so well and made specific builds just for pvp. Most of my time was spent in siren's call and we usually had pretty consistent teams going at it. A few of my characters were stacked with level 33 IO builds so that the sets would would work in siren's call. I had pvp'd since the first issue that allowed pvp and enjoyed it a lot. When new updates altered pvp, I would just alter my style and builds. There were times I would go to Warburg and slaughter a whole team by myself trying to transfer the scientists for nukes. Some people just had no idea how to build their characters and play the game. I enjoy making my characters the best they can be and always seek new ways to improve. I also pve'd a lot but it was just too darn easy. Me and best friend pretty much duo'd every tf/sf in the game. We also had plenty of tournaments at the arena and it was so fun to test out our new builds. Pvp was very fun and challenging in CoH and I wish more people were into it. I still occasionally load up Mid's and check out my builds or even create new ones. Damn, I miss CoH/CoV.

Foradain
Foradain's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 27 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/25/2013 - 21:06
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I would enjoy PvP in COT if it were appropriate to a story.
In other words, if a character (or party) of ill intent was trying to build a nude bomb and set it off during the mayor's election, another character (party?) could try to stop it.
In scenarios like this it would be voluntary participation, and defeating your opponents in combat is only a portion if the conditions of victory.

A... nude bomb? o.O

Would you believe a risqué firecracker?

Foradain, Mage of Phoenix Rising.
Foradain's Character Conclave
Avatar courtesy of Satellite Nine.
If you can't see an image I've posted, please let me know!

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 18 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
Foradain wrote:
Foradain wrote:

Would you believe a risqué firecracker?

Times like this require a like button. Nice one, Foradain


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Psycout wrote:
Psycout wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I feel like im the only hardcore PvPer here...no one to relate to...
Were you hard core PvP back in CoH too? If so, you must have felt somewhat in the minority there too, because you were almost rare as a unicorn :P.
I know they existed and even met a couple, but they couldn't have been more than a tiny percentage of the population.
And by this I mean truly hard core CoH PvPers, not people who just PvP'd occasionally.
I really miss CoH pvp. I built my characters so well and made specific builds just for pvp. Most of my time was spent in siren's call and we usually had pretty consistent teams going at it. A few of my characters were stacked with level 33 IO builds so that the sets would would work in siren's call. I had pvp'd since the first issue that allowed pvp and enjoyed it a lot. When new updates altered pvp, I would just alter my style and builds. There were times I would go to Warburg and slaughter a whole team by myself trying to transfer the scientists for nukes. Some people just had no idea how to build their characters and play the game. I enjoy making my characters the best they can be and always seek new ways to improve. I also pve'd a lot but it was just too darn easy. Me and best friend pretty much duo'd every tf/sf in the game. We also had plenty of tournaments at the arena and it was so fun to test out our new builds. Pvp was very fun and challenging in CoH and I wish more people were into it. I still occasionally load up Mid's and check out my builds or even create new ones. Damn, I miss CoH/CoV.

Thats awesome, see, you get it. It wasn't just getting ganked and crying about it. It was working on your build to make yourself stronger and dangerous to other players that wanted to mess with you. The thrill in PVP I could nevet get in PVE. I did farm with friends in PVE to help lowbies level once in a while and it was much more relaxed way to play. That's why im all for both play styles being done right.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Every time someone explains

Every time someone explains how PvP requires a different build from PvE, proceeds to use the glorification of defeating players who don't build for PvP and then explains how those players just don't understand PvP, further exemplifies why PvP will never be popular in this game.
Drawing a hard line between PvP and PvE, regardless of how you do it, is the only way to make it clear to players that they don't operate on the same rules. A simple pop-up that says this is not sufficient as will be evident by any arguments to this post.

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 17 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Psycout wrote:
Empyrean wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I feel like im the only hardcore PvPer here...no one to relate to...
Were you hard core PvP back in CoH too? If so, you must have felt somewhat in the minority there too, because you were almost rare as a unicorn :P.
I know they existed and even met a couple, but they couldn't have been more than a tiny percentage of the population.
And by this I mean truly hard core CoH PvPers, not people who just PvP'd occasionally.
I really miss CoH pvp. I built my characters so well and made specific builds just for pvp. Most of my time was spent in siren's call and we usually had pretty consistent teams going at it. A few of my characters were stacked with level 33 IO builds so that the sets would would work in siren's call. I had pvp'd since the first issue that allowed pvp and enjoyed it a lot. When new updates altered pvp, I would just alter my style and builds. There were times I would go to Warburg and slaughter a whole team by myself trying to transfer the scientists for nukes. Some people just had no idea how to build their characters and play the game. I enjoy making my characters the best they can be and always seek new ways to improve. I also pve'd a lot but it was just too darn easy. Me and best friend pretty much duo'd every tf/sf in the game. We also had plenty of tournaments at the arena and it was so fun to test out our new builds. Pvp was very fun and challenging in CoH and I wish more people were into it. I still occasionally load up Mid's and check out my builds or even create new ones. Damn, I miss CoH/CoV.
Thats awesome, see, you get it. It wasn't just getting ganked and crying about it. It was working on your build to make yourself stronger and dangerous to other players that wanted to mess with you. The thrill in PVP I could nevet get in PVE. I did farm with friends in PVE to help lowbies level once in a while and it was much more relaxed way to play. That's why im all for both play styles being done right.

To be fair, no one is saying it shouldn't be done right. But the vast majority of players (and therefore customers) are PvErs, which is where the most bang for the buck is going to be driven towards in regards to content development.

Additionally, the reason he "gets it" is because he's a PvPer. Of course he's going to have the same, and if not the same then a very similar outlook, as yourself.

Furthermore, where you said it's not about getting ganked and crying about it, he even admitted that he would go into Warburg and slaughter a whole team of PvErs going for nukes. It's exactly that kind of experience that is going to likely drive PvErs into never PvPing. Yes, I know, I get it. Don't go into a PvP zone if you don't want to PvP. But the devs shouldn't put a PvE viable temp power in a PvP zone. And what I mean by 'PvE viable temp power' is that you wouldn't likely ever use a Warburg nuke in a PvP fight, therefore it is more useful for, say, a Hami Nuke Raid in PvE content. Same thing with the Shivan temp power in Bloody Bay, another PvP zone and another PvE viable temp power. Perhaps the devs' intent was to encourage people to PvP. If so, then, ironically, it was more probable that experiences, such as the one mentioned above, in those zones had the opposite effect.

Finally, you may be trying to encourage others into PvPing and also encourage the devs to not shoe-horn a poor PvP system into the game, and by all means do so, but just be mindful of how you go about it.

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Every time someone explains how PvP requires a different build from PvE, proceeds to use the glorification of defeating players who don't build for PvP and then explains how those players just don't understand PvP, further exemplifies why PvP will never be popular in this game.
Drawing a hard line between PvP and PvE, regardless of how you do it, is the only way to make it clear to players that they don't operate on the same rules. A simple pop-up that says this is not sufficient as will be evident by any arguments to this post.

First of all, I never glorified beating those who don't build for PVP. My assumptions are gathered by all of the comments that PVE'rs have made about never trying to understand PVP or have any interest on improving their build for PVP. And your assumption that PvP will never be popular in this game is a little unfounded. I think PvP will be very popular but hey maybe you know something we don't. We already know your pitch on PVP was a horrible idea.

I think its obvious that PvE builds don't work in PvP and vice versa so I don't know why you need a billboard at every entrance forewarning people of things they already should know about MMOs.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
They could make it simple.

They could make it simple. When in a PvP zone, all defense power sets, become the same. All ranged powers do the same damage, recharge, accuracy, end cost. Melee the same.

All travels become unlocked when in a PvP zone.

Then, everyone is equal and people can actually say "It's my skill baby!"

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

They could make it simple. When in a PvP zone, all defense power sets, become the same. All ranged powers do the same damage, recharge, accuracy, end cost. Melee the same.
All travels become unlocked when in a PvP zone.
Then, everyone is equal and people can actually say "It's my skill baby!"

This will never work. If all powers are equal, and its just down to player skill, then everyone would have the same powers which would completely limit the fun in the game. PvP would quickly become boring. This is where no one seems to understand. You can create a build that normally would be laughable in PVP by messing around with the power set and customizing it to where a defender could potentially take down a tank on their own (which ive seen happen)

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
PvPers are, to a large extent

PvPers are, to a large extent, their own worst enemies. All they want to do is wait for the devs to make a system that's supposed to be balanced, and find a crack or loophole to exploit so they can dominate and point at the rules and say "I'm not breaking any rules, I'm just smarter/better at this than you, hahaha!" then the devs have to rework the rules to close the loophole and the jerks that were exploiting it get upset. Rinse repeat.

PvPers are LITERALLY hoping the devs will make a mistake so they can gank people as a result of such.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

PvPers are, to a large extent, their own worst enemies. All they want to do is wait for the devs to make a system that's supposed to be balanced, and find a crack or loophole to exploit so they can dominate and point at the rules and say "I'm not breaking any rules, I'm just smarter/better at this than you, hahaha!" then the devs have to rework the rules to close the loophole and the jerks that were exploiting it get upset. Rinse repeat.
PvPers are LITERALLY hoping the devs will make a mistake so they can gank people as a result of such.

The typical generalizing comment of someone who probably went in with a weak PvE build, got ganked, and cried home to mom. Seriously. Did you ever try to improve your PvP build? Probably not.

No matter how many times its explained to you guys that not all PVPers were like that, you still have this sour taste in your mouth about whatever experience you had in PVP. I never even paid attention to the updates the devs made. Its very simple. Its about looking at your stats, and saying ok I need hold resistance so im going to buy the ios that stack this resistance and that give me a bonus to regen why? because it could be better. So I need to find those ios. But also, you take out powers that don't seem to work in PvP and switch them for powers that work better.

So im glad you assume PVP'ers are the worst players you've ever met, maybe you should've tried to understand PvP and you would've had a better experience and maybe even some fun.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

First of all, I never glorified beating those who don't build for PVP.

Never said you did. I do find it funny that you instantly thought I was talking about you. Guilty conscience maybe?

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

And your assumption that PvP will never be popular in this game is a little unfounded. I think PvP will be very popular but hey maybe you know something we don't.

My 'assumption' is based on the evidence of all other MMO's with a half assed separation between PvP and PvE and their resulting PvP population. That might qualify as knowing something you don't but I don't think so.
It's just like my good friend Vaas Montenegro likes to say,

You are hoping for a larger PvP population with the same PvP experience other games have failed to make popular. Sure that PvP type has its devoted fans, but the experience for most is divisive to say the least.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

We already know your pitch on PVP was a horrible idea.

You think it's a horrible idea because you don't understand it. If you did you would see it is a logical extension of things you yourself have claimed to love about CoH's PvP.
Requiring a different mindset in PvP, a different build in PvP, different tactics in PvP and so forth.
The reason why you can't understand it is because you are unable to comprehend that not everyone has the same level of abstract thinking and require a hard shift to change the their perception of things. You just do not have a level of empathetic thinking required to put yourself into others shoes. Before you get all defensive or offended, I am not saying this is a flaw or makes you a bad person. It is just a skill you do not possess, much like how I can't change the oil in my car and have to pay 50 bucks to get it done every six months.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I think its obvious that PvE builds don't work in PvP and vice versa so I don't know why you need a billboard at every entrance forewarning people of things they already should know about MMOs.

Again, not everyone can separate how a character plays in PvE with how it plays in PvP even when they know that they play different. The difference just elude them while they perceive their character in PvE terms

Now let me expound on what you have stated above, PvE builds don't work in PvP, and then pose a question to you.
When you say that a PvE build will not work in PvP this means that if a player wants to be competitive in PvP they either:
A- Take an existing character and change it extensively to make it work in PvP
or
B- Have to build a character from the start with the intention of PvP.

Taking these facts, which you yourself have admitted, into consideration my question is:
What benefit is there to allowing unprepared PvE characters into PvP? How does that make PvP better?

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Benefits for whom? If we are

Benefits for whom? If we are looking at all the possible benefits I could list a few. Maybe a PvE built player wants to just go in and see players fight each other. Or maybe they want to see how good their powers are affecting others. The same reasons one might go into an arena I guess its just more open. In terms of PVP, well the more people in there, the more targets for other players.

But honestly if all you want is to have a sign at the entrance then ill vote for it if it makes you happy and we stop going in circles.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Brand X wrote:
They could make it simple. When in a PvP zone, all defense power sets, become the same. All ranged powers do the same damage, recharge, accuracy, end cost. Melee the same.
All travels become unlocked when in a PvP zone.
Then, everyone is equal and people can actually say "It's my skill baby!"
This will never work. If all powers are equal, and its just down to player skill, then everyone would have the same powers which would completely limit the fun in the game. PvP would quickly become boring. This is where no one seems to understand. You can create a build that normally would be laughable in PVP by messing around with the power set and customizing it to where a defender could potentially take down a tank on their own (which ive seen happen)

The attacks would look different. That's where the fun comes in.

You're attacking other players with the powers your concept calls for, so you don't look like everyone else. Where's the boring in that? You'd also still have Controllers, Defenders, Scrappers and Tankers. It's just the corresponding power would be equal.

So it wouldn't matter if you were a Time or Radiation Defender, you -ACC does the same -ACC as each other. Your tier 2 blast does the same damage.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Radiac wrote:
PvPers are, to a large extent, their own worst enemies. All they want to do is wait for the devs to make a system that's supposed to be balanced, and find a crack or loophole to exploit so they can dominate and point at the rules and say "I'm not breaking any rules, I'm just smarter/better at this than you, hahaha!" then the devs have to rework the rules to close the loophole and the jerks that were exploiting it get upset. Rinse repeat.
PvPers are LITERALLY hoping the devs will make a mistake so they can gank people as a result of such.
The typical generalizing comment of someone who probably went in with a weak PvE build, got ganked, and cried home to mom. Seriously. Did you ever try to improve your PvP build? Probably not.
No matter how many times its explained to you guys that not all PVPers were like that, you still have this sour taste in your mouth about whatever experience you had in PVP. I never even paid attention to the updates the devs made. Its very simple. Its about looking at your stats, and saying ok I need hold resistance so im going to buy the ios that stack this resistance and that give me a bonus to regen why? because it could be better. So I need to find those ios. But also, you take out powers that don't seem to work in PvP and switch them for powers that work better.
So im glad you assume PVP'ers are the worst players you've ever met, maybe you should've tried to understand PvP and you would've had a better experience and maybe even some fun.

Just because it's generalizing, does not make it untrue for the majority of PvPers.

You may not have paid attention, but seeing people going in with common builds and just listening people talk about how they had to re-level a new toon because they got nerfed :p

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Benefits for whom? If we are looking at all the possible benefits I could list a few. Maybe a PvE built player wants to just go in and see players fight each other. Or maybe they want to see how good their powers are affecting others. The same reasons one might go into an arena I guess its just more open. In terms of PVP, well the more people in there, the more targets for other players.

But honestly if all you want is to have a sign at the entrance then ill vote for it if it makes you happy and we stop going in circles.

No a sign is pointless as I have already tried to explain.

You didn't really answer my question.
Your rationalization for PvE builds in PvP, people wanting to see how their powers work and see people fight, could easily be accomplished with a spectator mode.
But the bold part points to a more honest answer as to why you want to allow people with, in your words, PvE builds (that) don't work in PvP. You are just looking for targets. You don't seem to care that other players might be driven away by this mentality. You don't want to make PvP better for everyone, just those who already like PvP.
Even a casual search shows that only 1-8% of the total population in MMO's that present PvP as alternative activity for PvE characters will engage in PvP regularly.
The most common reason people give as to why they don't PvP is they don't enjoy it.
So what was your solution to that? You tell people:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

... everyone who disliked PVP or had bad experiences should give it a shot in CoT. Even if you get ganked at first, keep trying, its loads of fun!

Seriously, doing something you don't enjoy over and over again is not usually going to magically make you like it. My friend needs insulin injections and has been doing it for years and he still hates it.

Instead of just arguing against any complaints about PvP, maybe you think of some ways to make it better for everyone.

It doesn't really matter though because good news, you are going to get exactly what you want. CoT will have the same divisive PvP system that actively repels the average casual PvP player resulting in only a small percentage of the games population engaging in it regularly just like CoH did.

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Well im not good at pulling

Well im not good at pulling quotes but as to your first point, why is it my responsibility to make the game better? I think how PVP was in COH was perfectly fine. The fault was not in the system, it was in the players unwillingness to learn how to play the game. If they don't enjoy it then don't play it. My issue is the people that didn't enjoy it because they went in once, got ganked, and ran out swearing an oath to hate PVP forever and condemning everyone who actually enjoyed PVP. You can browse through peoples opinions and experiences in this thread for proof if you would like.

As to your second comment, a lot of first time PvPers didn't do it "over and over again" as you stated. That is my issue. You don't quit because you hate something or had a bad experience that's one of the basic lessons of life. So as much as you keep telling me it was broken I don't believe it was because I went toe to toe with others in SC and there were fights where I came out the victor, and some where i came out the loser. And even some that were a draw.

And why did a lot of us have fun there? Because we GLADLY put in the time to create a PVP build that would work well enough to last in that kind of environment. Not complained that the game was broken and unfair.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 4 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

t doesn't really matter though because good news, you are going to get exactly what you want. CoT will have the same divisive PvP system that actively repels the average casual PvP player resulting in only a small percentage of the games population engaging in it regularly just like CoH did.

You don't know this. The only thing we've stated about pvp (combat) is that it will be separate phase of the world map and it is elective whether you enter it or not.

We've yet to detail concepts for different elective forms of combat pvp. We've yet to detail systems for pvp world maps to prevent ganking, encourage players to work together, and create a fair playing field at given leveld of play. Or how we can use the pvp phase to create pvp events.

Not to mention all the ways we want to include noncombat based pvp.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

Brainbot wrote:
t doesn't really matter though because good news, you are going to get exactly what you want. CoT will have the same divisive PvP system that actively repels the average casual PvP player resulting in only a small percentage of the games population engaging in it regularly just like CoH did.
You don't know this. The only thing we've stated about pvp (combat) is that it will be separate phase of the world map and it is elective whether you enter it or not.
We've yet to detail concepts for different elective forms of combat pvp. We've yet to detail systems for pvp world maps to prevent ganking, encourage players to work together, and create a fair playing field at given leveld of play. Or how we can use the pvp phase to create pvp events.
Not to mention all the ways we want to include noncombat based pvp.

Good to know. Im assuming however, that to a certain degree, your improvement in PVP is going to rely on the powers you choose and the enhancements. Correct?

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Well im not good at pulling quotes but as to your first point, why is it my responsibility to make the game better?

Is it your responsibility to tell everyone how they feel about PvP is wrong? Even here:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

The fault was not in the system, it was in the players unwillingness to learn how to play the game.

You are blaming others for not just 'going along' with a system they did not like.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

My issue is the people that didn't enjoy it because they went in once, got ganked, and ran out swearing an oath to hate PVP forever and condemning everyone who actually enjoyed PVP. You can browse through peoples opinions and experiences in this thread for proof if you would like.

Well, if you think a handful of people's posts in a forum is conclusive evidence then you are very misguided.

But lets assume you are right lets look at the actual statements they have made.

Rigel wrote:

I like the idea of PVP, but have had so many bad encounters with it over the years in various games I just don't even bother anymore.

Fireheart wrote:

I generally agree that PvP should be allowed, since some people enjoy it. I'll even admit that I've been tempted to try it a few times and main turn-off is the rampant bad sportsmanship. I might volunteer to try my strength and skill against a live opponent, but I won't volunteer to let some low-brow egomaniac shake his metaphorical wang in my face.

OathboundOne wrote:

Also, as a badge hunter I HATED having to go to PvP zones to get exploration badges. PvP kill badges or rewards or whatever, Fine. I can simply accept that I'll never earn those, but Exploration badges? They're RIGHT THERE! I don't have to DO anything... except get to them without getting ganked a dozen times... so stressful..

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

I'm in that camp. Never had the HO-loaded build you needed to survive, and as a blaster with no mez protection, my time in PvP zones was split between 1) nobody is around, and 2) suddenly dirt nap.

Brand X wrote:

In my experience, those who love open world pvpers are just gankers :p

Those are just some of the people who have expressed complaints about PvP and the bold part implies they didn't just go in once and give up.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

So as much as you keep telling me it was broken I don't believe it was because I went toe to toe with others in SC and there were fights where I came out the victor, and some where i came out the loser. And even some that were a draw.

I am fed up with this. I have been trying to be diplomatic with you and not belittling your 'experience' in PvP but when you say stuff like this it just shows how little you understand.
You called yourself a 'hardcore PvP'r' at one point in this thread.
Buddy, you are a casual.
In CoH the Hardcore went to the test server and had matches in the arena. We played weekly and set up ladder matches, practice matches and an informal commission. We had honor rules to overcome the flaws in the system and we crowned champions. All those FotM builds came from the test server arena because we were the one pushing the system to its limits. We put in effort to make PvP fair/balanced and inclusive. We took the inexperienced in our group under wing and explained tactics, builds, timing and so on. We had a ranking system that matched equally skilled players (actually teams) against one another so we weren't just winning by exploiting inexperience.
If you were serious about PvP you went to the test server.

The only time the 'hardcore' players went into Zone PvP was to get the rewards or, in the case of the less scrupulous ones, to stomp on the inexperienced. Most of us didn't go in there at all because Zone PvP in CoH wasn't about balanced competition it was about taking advantage.

The reason we went to the test server was because it was the only place we could manage the constant re-building of characters to keep up with competitive PvP. It was a frustrating endeavor where we had to load and reload character from the live game every time a new tactic was invented, a new counter was developed or a new update was put on test. Sometimes , if the rules of the matches allowed it, we would even change builds between rounds. We were the ones who argued the loudest and longest for multiple builds on a character because we knew that a PvE build was rarely viable in PvP, let alone competitive and vice versa.

Every time an update went live that hurt competitive PvP we would lose a few players to other games with greener pastures. Every time a new exploit in PvP was discovered by the players and we had to make new rules we lost a few more players due to the frustration of flawed system. We bled players constantly and if it wasn't for the efforts of a few very dedicated members of our core group getting us new players semi-regular we eventually wouldn't have a reason to play.

You may have found the PvP system in CoH fun but you were only seeing a small fraction of what PvP actually was. So when you say this its frustrating.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

And why did a lot of us have fun there? Because we GLADLY put in the time to create a PVP build that would work well enough to last in that kind of environment. Not complained that the game was broken and unfair.

Before you try to imply that I didn't enjoy PvP or wasn't willing to put effort into builds, understand that your experience in PvP is dwarfed by others, like me.

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Well im not good at pulling quotes but as to your first point, why is it my responsibility to make the game better?
Is it your responsibility to tell everyone how they feel about PvP is wrong? Even here:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
The fault was not in the system, it was in the players unwillingness to learn how to play the game.
You are blaming others for not just 'going along' with a system they did not like.
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
My issue is the people that didn't enjoy it because they went in once, got ganked, and ran out swearing an oath to hate PVP forever and condemning everyone who actually enjoyed PVP. You can browse through peoples opinions and experiences in this thread for proof if you would like.
Well, if you think a handful of people's posts in a forum is conclusive evidence then you are very misguided.
But lets assume you are right lets look at the actual statements they have made.
Rigel wrote:
I like the idea of PVP, but have had so many bad encounters with it over the years in various games I just don't even bother anymore.
Fireheart wrote:
I generally agree that PvP should be allowed, since some people enjoy it. I'll even admit that I've been tempted to try it a few times and main turn-off is the rampant bad sportsmanship. I might volunteer to try my strength and skill against a live opponent, but I won't volunteer to let some low-brow egomaniac shake his metaphorical wang in my face.
OathboundOne wrote:
Also, as a badge hunter I HATED having to go to PvP zones to get exploration badges. PvP kill badges or rewards or whatever, Fine. I can simply accept that I'll never earn those, but Exploration badges? They're RIGHT THERE! I don't have to DO anything... except get to them without getting ganked a dozen times... so stressful..
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
I'm in that camp. Never had the HO-loaded build you needed to survive, and as a blaster with no mez protection, my time in PvP zones was split between 1) nobody is around, and 2) suddenly dirt nap.
Brand X wrote:
In my experience, those who love open world pvpers are just gankers :p
Those are just some of the people who have expressed complaints about PvP and the bold part implies they didn't just go in once and give up.
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
So as much as you keep telling me it was broken I don't believe it was because I went toe to toe with others in SC and there were fights where I came out the victor, and some where i came out the loser. And even some that were a draw.
I am fed up with this. I have been trying to be diplomatic with you and not belittling your 'experience' in PvP but when you say stuff like this it just shows how little you understand.
You called yourself a 'hardcore PvP'r' at one point in this thread.
Buddy, you are a casual.
In CoH the Hardcore went to the test server and had matches in the arena. We played weekly and set up ladder matches, practice matches and an informal commission. We had honor rules to overcome the flaws in the system and we crowned champions. All those FotM builds came from the test server arena because we were the one pushing the system to its limits. We put in effort to make PvP fair/balanced and inclusive. We took the inexperienced in our group under wing and explained tactics, builds, timing and so on. We had a ranking system that matched equally skilled players (actually teams) against one another so we weren't just winning by exploiting inexperience.
If you were serious about PvP you went to the test server.
The only time the 'hardcore' players went into Zone PvP was to get the rewards or, in the case of the less scrupulous ones, to stomp on the inexperienced. Most of us didn't go in there at all because Zone PvP in CoH wasn't about balanced competition it was about taking advantage.
The reason we went to the test server was because it was the only place we could manage the constant re-building of characters to keep up with competitive PvP. It was a frustrating endeavor where we had to load and reload character from the live game every time a new tactic was invented, a new counter was developed or a new update was put on test. Sometimes , if the rules of the matches allowed it, we would even change builds between rounds. We were the ones who argued the loudest and longest for multiple builds on a character because we knew that a PvE build was rarely viable in PvP, let alone competitive and vice versa.
Every time an update went live that hurt competitive PvP we would lose a few players to other games with greener pastures. Every time a new exploit in PvP was discovered by the players and we had to make new rules we lost a few more players due to the frustration of flawed system. We bled players constantly and if it wasn't for the efforts of a few very dedicated members of our core group getting us new players semi-regular we eventually wouldn't have a reason to play.
You may have found the PvP system in CoH fun but you were only seeing a small fraction of what PvP actually was. So when you say this its frustrating.
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
And why did a lot of us have fun there? Because we GLADLY put in the time to create a PVP build that would work well enough to last in that kind of environment. Not complained that the game was broken and unfair.
Before you try to imply that I didn't enjoy PvP or wasn't willing to put effort into builds, understand that your experience in PvP is dwarfed by others, like me.

Nothing you said addressed my statement and the whole reason we are having this discussion. Those statements you pulled from others proves my point that they had bad experiences because they got ganked and talked down and gave up. They never attempted to work on their build so that they could last in a pvp zone.

Your argument that PVP is broken has nothing to do with my statement about those players who didn't even attempt to work with what was given. And frankly I don't care about what you did or how much better you were in PvP. I played in PvP zones every day, the literal meaning is Player versus player. And that's what I did. Dissect my comments all you want, you are constantly arguing and trying to pick fights on multiple threads with your complaining and whining. I am bored with talking to you so just don't address me is that cool. cool

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

You don't know this. The only thing we've stated about pvp (combat) is that it will be separate phase of the world map and it is elective whether you enter it or not.

That isn't all you have said about it. You have spoken about how abilities/combat will work the same in PvP as they do in PvE and for those times they don't you can change one without changing the other.

That is a major complaint that I have with MMO games that offer PvP as an alternative activity for PvE character. The fact that the metrics you use to design abilities for PvE are very different in PvP. I maintain that this is actual a big reason why most people who like competitive game play avoid MMO's.
E-Sports games show us it is possible to design characters with vastly different abilities and still maintain balance. They are able to do this because they used a PvP metric to design the abilities.

I'm sorry Tannim, unless you tell me that PvP and PvE abilities will be designed seperately and with their corresponding metric, no amount of team encouragement, anti-ganking protection or PvP events is going to be enough to draw players IMO. The way I see things, it is going to be a niche of a niche that divides those who enjoy PvP and those who don't.

Tannim222
Tannim222's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 4 min ago
Developer11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/16/2013 - 12:47
Brainbot]Tannim222 wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Tannim222 wrote:
You don't know this. The only thing we've stated about pvp (combat) is that it will be separate phase of the world map and it is elective whether you enter it or not.
That isn't all you have said about it. You have spoken about how abilities/combat will work the same in PvP as they do in PvE and for those times they don't you can change one without changing the other.

That is true but can work in favor of easing the barrrier of entry for people used to pve and not pvp.

Brainbot wrote:

That is a major complaint that I have with MMO games that offer PvP as an alternative activity for PvE character. The fact that the metrics you use to design abilities for PvE are very different in PvP. I maintain that this is actual a big reason why most people who like competitive game play avoid MMO's.
E-Sports games show us it is possible to design characters with vastly different abilities and still maintain balance. They are able to do this because they used a PvP metric to design the abilities.
I'm sorry Tannim, unless you tell me that PvP and PvE abilities will be designed seperately and with their corresponding metric, no amount of team encouragement, anti-ganking protection or PvP events is going to be enough to draw players IMO. The way I see things, it is going to be a niche of a niche that divides those who enjoy PvP and those who don't.

I also said we are including pvp metrics as part of pve design. And an example I gave for power mechanics is how we don't have powers which specifically manipulate AI. Power effects affect NPCs the same way they affect PCs.

Of course players will behave differently when their characters are affected, and use different tactics than npcs, that is part of the learning curve of pvp. But at least the functional mechanics operate the same regardless of the target.


I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
Tech Team.
Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I am bored with talking to you so just don't address me is that cool. cool

You do realize that you have initiated every exchange we have had right? Oh well, if you don't want to discuss things anymore then I won't talk to you again.

But you have to do the same thing.

And since you decided to take some swings while exiting I will do the same.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Nothing you said addressed my statement and the whole reason we are having this discussion. Those statements you pulled from others proves my point that they had bad experiences because they got ganked and talked down and gave up. They never attempted to work on their build so that they could last in a pvp zone.

Actually I was specifically responding to your assertion that people wouldn't try a few times. You said it here:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

My issue is the people that didn't enjoy it because they went in once, got ganked, and ran out swearing an oath to hate PVP forever and condemning everyone who actually enjoyed PVP. You can browse through peoples opinions and experiences in this thread for proof if you would like.

I was showing you that people did try it a few times and that many of the disagreements with PvP wasn't about losing as you keep trying to say. Incidentally, not all those I quoted actually disliked PvP in general, just parts of it. This is why your blatant self centered assumption just don't fly with me.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

And frankly I don't care about what you did or how much better you were in PvP. I played in PvP zones every day, the literal meaning is Player versus player.

It's funny that, when you thought you had more experience, you liked to talk about how your experiences in PvP matter so much but now that you find your experience isn't as vast as you thought you don't care what other peoples have seen or done. I always love naked hypocrisy.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

you are constantly arguing and trying to pick fights on multiple threads with your complaining and whining.

As I have already said (and can point directly to the evidence of), you are the one who picks the fights with me.

There, we have both said our parting words and can go our separate ways. I won't respond to you and you won't respond to me.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

That is true but can work in favor of easing the barrrier of entry for people used to pve and not pvp.

It can also reinforce the barrier. People grow attached to their PvE character because of the time spent developing it, and so PvP losses with that invested character could have a greater negative impact than a faceless player character would.

Tannim222 wrote:

I also said we are including pvp metrics as part of pve design.

I know, but this is all a half step to me. I could give examples of abilities/classes in CoH and start explaining why some sets became and stayed the most viable for PvP. I can also give examples and reasons why some abilities/classes wouldn't be viable without major revision. I could, but you probably already know all the examples and reason.
You also know that this type of split focus PvE/PvP design has never had much success in making PvP popular. Popular PvP is found in games that avoid intermingling PvP with PvE altogether.

All I am saying is we should take a page out of the more popular competitive PvP and start small with a big step (if that makes sense).
Big step-Completely cut the ties between PvP and PvE characters interaction.
Small step-Only include a limited selection of abilities that have been specifically designed with PvP (only) balancing metrics.
As time goes on and the inevitable period where PvP undergoes re-balancing has past, more abilities can be added just like most other types of PvP.

What you are doing right now is taking everything the game has and letting it loose in PvP without knowing how it will work. Thats a recipe for disaster IMO.

I should say that regardless of how you do PvP I am probably going to be involved in it. The idea of a fully customized PvP character is just to great a draw for me to resist.

Greyhawk
Greyhawk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 1 day ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/03/2015 - 19:17
This discussion and the

This discussion and the attitudes present within it are exactly why I will never learn to enjoy PvP.

I spent four years in Lineage II without a clan. At one time I had more Red kills than most of the Red players had normal kills. The assumption that people who don't like PvP, "got ganked once and gave up" simply does not apply to me. To be honest, I'm not sure it applies to anyone. In CoH I avoided PvP zones. I'd had enough of that in Lineage II and was more than happy to just chase down NPCs, follow storylines, and hang out building story arcs in the Mission Architect. Most of the assumptions being made here about people like myself who dislike and disparage PvP are simply false. So much so, they are borderline delusional. This discussion demonstrates exactly why PvP and PvE do not belong in the same game. Period.

PvP players make bold, condescending assumptions about players who avoid their preferred style of gameplay. They don't listen to non-PvP players and they don't take them seriously. This attitude of condescension and contempt is why players like myself avoid PvP. It's not that we are unwilling to master the game. We are unwilling to tolerate the arrogance and narcissism of far too many PvP fans, both casual and dedicated.

I am content with the assurances put forth by the staff at MWM that PvP will not interfere with normal gameplay. Very content. The one thing that disturbs me is the attitude that still arises in Tannim222 and Doctor Tyche and other individuals from time to time that somehow the CoT PvP game will magically be "different" and dedicated PvE players who experiment with it will somehow magically come to enjoy it. Let me be perfectly clear: that will never happen!

It is not game mechanics that dissuades us. The thing that destroys any interest the majority of players have in this aberrant and minority playstyle is the arrogance and condescension expressed rabidly and constantly by players who assume they are our betters simply because they prefer beating on one another to beating on lifeless NPCs.

I don't care how well they are designed, game mechanics cannot change player attitudes. While there are certainly some PvP fans who are not condescending, they are few and far between.

Keeping the PvP on a separate shard invisible to me seems like a fine idea. That is just about the only thing in this discussion I agree with.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B000APIPZC?ref_=pe_584750_33951330

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 18 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
I think this forum, by its

I think this forum, by its very nature, and the participants herein are not a representative sample of the potential playerbase. This forum is an echo chamber of just a handful of regularly contributing individuals. So take all the anti-pvp sentiments with a grain of salt.

I would argue that PvP makes up a vast majority of all MMO players. When it comes to MMORPG, however, the balance is not nearly so lopsided and one could argue that there may be more PvE players. But that all depends on the game and the intended audience. PvE oriented games will obviously have more PvE players and so those players, in their resulting echo chamber, extrapolate that the rest of the MMO universe is also PvE. Likewise with some PvP-only players, who wonder why anyone would want to do PvE, because in their respective echo chambers that is the prevailing sentiment.

I think it would be irresponsible for MWM to intentionally ignore a very large potential PvP market.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Empyrean
Empyrean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 29 min 21 sec ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 03/16/2014 - 07:51
Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Keeping the PvP on a separate shard invisible to me seems like a fine idea. That is just about the only thing in this discussion I agree with.

Which is why I think, in the end, CoT is doing exactly the right thing with PvP.

No matter what, those that don't like PvP never have to think about it, and PvP won't affect PvE at all. That alone makes it so that whatever happens with PvP, the PvE game will be blissfully unaffected.

Then, if they happen to make PvP a better experience than in CoH--or even make PvP, dare I say it, popular among the general player base--that's all just icing on the PvE cake.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

This discussion and the attitudes present within it are exactly why I will never learn to enjoy PvP.
I spent four years in Lineage II without a clan. At one time I had more Red kills than most of the Red players had normal kills. The assumption that people who don't like PvP, "got ganked once and gave up" simply does not apply to me. To be honest, I'm not sure it applies to anyone. In CoH I avoided PvP zones. I'd had enough of that in Lineage II and was more than happy to just chase down NPCs, follow storylines, and hang out building story arcs in the Mission Architect. Most of the assumptions being made here about people like myself who dislike and disparage PvP are simply false. So much so, they are borderline delusional. This discussion demonstrates exactly why PvP and PvE do not belong in the same game. Period.
PvP players make bold, condescending assumptions about players who avoid their preferred style of gameplay. They don't listen to non-PvP players and they don't take them seriously. This attitude of condescension and contempt is why players like myself avoid PvP. It's not that we are unwilling to master the game. We are unwilling to tolerate the arrogance and narcissism of far too many PvP fans, both casual and dedicated.
I am content with the assurances put forth by the staff at MWM that PvP will not interfere with normal gameplay. Very content. The one thing that disturbs me is the attitude that still arises in Tannim222 and Doctor Tyche and other individuals from time to time that somehow the CoT PvP game will magically be "different" and dedicated PvE players who experiment with it will somehow magically come to enjoy it. Let me be perfectly clear: that will never happen!
It is not game mechanics that dissuades us. The thing that destroys any interest the majority of players have in this aberrant and minority playstyle is the arrogance and condescension expressed rabidly and constantly by players who assume they are our betters simply because they prefer beating on one another to beating on lifeless NPCs.
I don't care how well they are designed, game mechanics cannot change player attitudes. While there are certainly some PvP fans who are not condescending, they are few and far between.
Keeping the PvP on a separate shard invisible to me seems like a fine idea. That is just about the only thing in this discussion I agree with.

A few notes in response to this:
1. I would be happier if PvP and PVE were two separate, different games, as Greyhawk mentions.
2. I myself dislike PvP largely because I would rather play cooperatively with others and just hang out, make witty remarks on the chat channels, and generally be sociable and have what I call fun rather than enter the great "I'm better than you" debate, alpha male dominance, and trolling behavior that all PvP is based on.
3. I don't think PvPers are arrogant, they're just driven by different motivations than PvE players. I like playing and DMing paper-and-pencil DnD when I have the time. Other gamers I know could not think of a bigger waste of time than that, because DnD isn;t a game designed to have an outcome of "there's a winner and a loser at the end" so they can't "win", so why play? But those same people love playing in competitive Magic the Gathering tournaments with judges and prizes for the winners. Some people want to play a sport or game to prove that "their kung fu is superior" and some, like me, are just happy-go-lucky people who want to unwind and escape from the dull boring real life for a while.
4. I don't think any MMORPG can be really enjoyable to both of those player types in the sense that it would be equally appealing to both of them. I think you're either a PvE game with some PvP you have to throw the PvPers a bone, or you're a FPS game that appeals pretty much only to PvPers.
5. It would be good for the devs not to listen TOO closely to the complaints of PvPers in all cases. Many of those complaints boil down to "I lost, and I keep losing, and it's not my fault, it's the game's fault, and I'm mad." The only way to please that individual is to hand that individual some immortal lock on victory that applies only to his characters and nobody else's such that he and only he can ever win his matches. All PvPers, generally, are driven by the hatred of losing and the desire to win glory for themselves. Deep down, they don't care enough about balance or fairness to ever complain about it. They're just angling for better odds of winning for themselves, while preserving the canard that the game is fair and the opponent has no overt reason to think otherwise. It's like baseball mangers complaining about balls and strikes during a game. They're NOT trying to get the ump to call a more FAIR game, they're trying to get more calls to go THEIR way for their team, even if that means the game is UNFAIR, ultimately.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

5. It would be good for the devs not to listen TOO closely to the complaints of PvPers in all cases. Many of those complaints boil down to "I lost, and I keep losing, and it's not my fault, it's the game's fault, and I'm mad." The only way to please that individual is to hand that individual some immortal lock on victory that applies only to his characters and nobody else's such that he and only he can ever win his matches. All PvPers, generally, are driven by the hatred of losing and the desire to win glory for themselves. Deep down, they don't care enough about balance or fairness to ever complain about it. They're just angling for better odds of winning for themselves, while preserving the canard that the game is fair and the opponent has no overt reason to think otherwise. It's like baseball mangers complaining about balls and strikes during a game. They're NOT trying to get the ump to call a more FAIR game, they're trying to get more calls to go THEIR way for their team, even if that means the game is UNFAIR, ultimately.

This kind of declarative statement as fact is how flame wars start.
You can state your opinion all you want, but when you start telling others that they are liars and that they have evil motives you cross lines of etiquette that will upset people deeply. It is much more likely to be fight words when you make the statement as if it is fact as you do above.

Needless to say I don't agree with the sentiment that people who like PvP are inherently deceptive and their only interest in unfair advantage. Wanting to 'win' does not make someone immoral or selfish, how they 'win' does. Whats more I find it a highly improbability that someone who freely admits they don't engage in any competitive activity, much less PvP, has any significant insight into the motives of those who do like competition.

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 17 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

"their kung fu is superior"

WHOA WHOA WHOA, let's stop the presses, back the truck up, hold the horses, etc!

Was this a Lone Gunmen reference ala The X-Files?

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
I'm not saying that all

I'm not saying that all PvPers are self-serving jerks angling for an advantage, I'm only saying that those individuals do exist, and tend to be as vocal as anyone. It's the old "harass the ump until he gives the squeaky wheel the grease" routine. These people KNOW that what they're asking for is not fairness. They want an advantage in the public guise of fairness so that they will win this game right here and now. Head coaches, managers, etc have been doing this since the invention of sports. Billy Martin used to go ballistic on umpires when they called balls and strikes and safe/out calls against his team, Mugsy McGraw, the iconic manager of the New York (baseball) Giants, upon finally retiring, as his last official act as manager, lodged yet another of his famous complaints about the officiating to the league office.

And as far as "superior kung fu" goes, yes I do remember that X-Files episode, but it was a trope in the kung fu genre long before that. One that the X-Files writers undoubtedly had in mind when they wrote that episode.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Lin Chiao Feng
Lin Chiao Feng's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/02/2013 - 09:27
Playing the refs is as old as

Playing the refs is as old as PvP. I wouldn't be surprised if the original Olympians did it.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
You do realize that Magic is

You do realize that Magic is a PvP game and that You are a PvPer. Are the PvPer attitudes you attribute to others the same that you apply to your opponents?

Do you play fair? Do you play with a base deck so every thing will be fair? Do you simply Pay to Win by dropping loads of money on buying every card you can in order to maximize your deck so you can dominate your inferiors?

You can display those snobbish attitudes against others without resorting to the loud adzhattery that you can be exposed to in zone chat. You can subtly abuse people IRL without being a total adzhat. Doesn't make those individuals feel any less abused.
-
God you must be old if you think that only guys PvP.

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 17 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

And as far as "superior kung fu" goes, yes I do remember that X-Files episode, but it was a trope in the kung fu genre long before that. One that the X-Files writers undoubtedly had in mind when they wrote that episode.

Niiice. I love that episode.

As for the standalone Lone Gunmen tv series... not so much.

/derail_off

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
I play Magic, but not

I play Magic, but not competitively. By that I mean, I know a lot of people who enjoy playing in tournies WAY more than I do. I play primarily to be creative and make combo decks that do stuff you didn't think was possible, and that have rules interactions so obscure, I get to hear myself talk as I explain how and why my combo works while I eventually lose to your more competitive deck anyway. I'm a teacher, I enjoy playing Magic to make me sound smart and knowledgeable by showing off my goofy decks to people. The people I play with, who are my friends, many of whom would only play a MMO if it had good PvP, are the competitive ones I'm describing.

Here's a story for you. My friend Joe was playing against a guy at a tourny once. Joe's deck was a deck that uses Kuldotha Forgemaster to cheat Blightsteel Colossus into play on the end of the opponent's turn, for free, then attacks with the colossus (which generally one-shot kills the opponent) on the next turn. This is a known tourney deck. People know it only has one colossus in it, because you don't want to draw it, you have to use the Forgemaster to pull it out of your deck for you, and if it's in your hand you can't do that. So Joe set's up the combo and at the end of his opponent's turn he goes "So I win, right?" gesturing to his Forgemaster and the rest of the pieces he needs to search for the Colossus, get it out of his deck, and win the next turn. The opponent goes "Oh, yeah, you can do that now, I guess I lose..." and scoops up his cards, conceding the match. Joe then says "I accept your concession of the match" and proceeds to show the kid that he had the bleeping colossus in his hand the whole time, which would mean he could not have comboed out as such, but the tourney rule is that conceding is final and it;s immediately over when they do that. So Joe wins by dirtbagging his opponent into conceding.

Edit: the Magic makers have reduced their Magic playing customers to a set of psychological profiles that explain why different people play magic differently and what motivates them to do so. These are called the three basic psychographics of magic and the company has given them names. Timmy, Johnny, and Spike. Spike is the tournament player, and his motivation is to win, and by winning, to demonstrate that he's the best. I am not a Spike, I am somewhere between a Johnny and a Timmy. One likes comboes, the other likes big impressive overkill plays, and I like both, so I'm something like a 50/50 hybrid of both.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

I play Magic, but not competitively. By that I mean, I know a lot of people who enjoy playing in tournies WAY more than I do. I play primarily to be creative and make combo decks that do stuff you didn't think was possible, and that have rules interactions so obscure, I get to hear myself talk as I explain how and why my combo works while I eventually lose to your more competitive deck anyway. I'm a teacher, I enjoy playing Magic to make me sound smart and knowledgeable by showing off my goofy decks to people. The people I play with, who are my friends, many of whom would only play a MMO if it had good PvP, are the competitive ones I'm describing.
Here's a story for you. My friend Joe was playing against a guy at a tourny once. Joe's deck was a deck that uses Kuldotha Forgemaster to cheat Blightsteel Colossus into play on the end of the opponent's turn, for free, then attacks with the colossus (which generally one-shot kills the opponent) on the next turn. This is a known tourney deck. People know it only has one colossus in it, because you don't want to draw it, you have to use the Forgemaster to pull it out of your deck for you, and if it's in your hand you can't do that. So Joe set's up the combo and at the end of his opponent's turn he goes "So I win, right?" gesturing to his Forgemaster and the rest of the pieces he needs to search for the Colossus, get it out of his deck, and win the next turn. The opponent goes "Oh, yeah, you can do that now, I guess I lose..." and scoops up his cards, conceding the match. Joe then says "I accept your concession of the match" and proceeds to show the kid that he had the bleeping colossus in his hand the whole time, which would mean he could not have comboed out as such, but the tourney rule is that conceding is final and it;s immediately over when they do that. So Joe wins by dirtbagging his opponent into conceding.
Edit: the Magic makers have reduced their Magic playing customers to a set of psychological profiles that explain why different people play magic differently and what motivates them to do so. These are called the three basic psychographics of magic and the company has given them names. Timmy, Johnny, and Spike. Spike is the tournament player, and his motivation is to win, and by winning, to demonstrate that he's the best. I am not a Spike, I am somewhere between a Johnny and a Timmy. One likes comboes, the other likes big impressive overkill plays, and I like both, so I'm something like a 50/50 hybrid of both.

Good tale. Based on your description, I would say that your are in the more casual class of PvPers. Which is where I fell in CoH. First game I ever PvPed in was GW. It was forced and I hated it. PvP in GW was a completely different game from the PvE. I had absolutely no interest in doing it do to the bad taste that was left after having been forced to do so.

In CoH, friends talked me into trying PvP. I went because they were, after all, my friends. I enjoyed it. Loved the thrill of the unknown. The level of engagement was hyper-intense / even mood altering. We were all casual about the entire experience and were always predominately focused on PvE. What I found to be more enjoyable was PvPing with those friends in the arena. No fuss. No muss. Just pure fun.

What I don't understand is why you are so vehemently opposed to PvP. If you enjoy the competitive nature or aspects of Magic, then you already have within you the capacity to enjoy PvP in CoT. You don't have to be a diehard PvPer to enjoy the activity. Are you going to die - absolutely. But you fight and die with your friends. Sometimes you win. If you are PvPing just to win, then you have already lost. When CoT comes out, please at least try the PvP with your friends. You just might find out that you like it.

* * * *

By the by: Most dedicated PvPers are not afflicted with altitis, so they can dedicate all their time and resources into developing their one (or small stable) of PvP character(s). Their is no way a casual PvPer can realistically compete with them on a level playing field. But, .... so what. I'm a altaholic and that is where all my joy (Killjoy reference) goes. If I get beaten by a super juiced up PvP character, have I really lost. If I take my intentionally gimped concept character into PvP and she gets defeated, have I lost. No. If some adzhat dedicated PvPer talks smack for defeating someone outside their fighting class, then they are truly small.

What I would like you to consider is the similarities between yourself and your friends efforts to build decks and the efforts of PvPers to improve their PvP builds. Not all builds are intended to be "spikes".

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
^ well said

^ well said

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

So Joe wins by dirtbagging his opponent into conceding.

Does your friend think he was 'dirtbagging' or does he think he played a poker bluff that got the other guy to fold? I bet he thinks what he did was a clever maneuver, not unlike your goofy decks designed to do something no one expects. I bet even the guy who lost, if he could be honest with himself, is more upset with himself than he ever will be with your friend who tricked him.

Yes there are people who are more interested in winning and are willing to blacken their metaphorical soul to do so. But it is equally true that there are those who view competition, any competition, in part as a co-operative activity. They want both themselves and their opponent to do everything in each of their power to 'win' because the struggle is the true goal. In order to do this things like handicaps, as in golf, were invented by the players themselves to keep people on level playing fields. Rankings were not originally devised as bragging rights, they were a way to match evenly skilled contestants against one another. Most competitors want the pride and glory of winning but even most aggressive ones understand that without a balanced competition the pride is hollow and the glory is shallow.

Bringing it back around, the key to good PvP is understanding how to keep the playing field balanced for any who might participate.

Where you start is with a clear and (as much as possible) unbreakable set of rules.
In most cases the actual rules are less important than making sure that everyone involved fully understands them and that they can't be subverted. Full understanding is the only way to keep people on the same page about the nature of the competition.
This is probably the hardest thing to do because people can understand something without fully understanding it and fully understanding it is important. The rules being unbreakable is self explanatory but no set of rules will ever be infallible. Monitoring participants for rule breaking is an impossibility and so every effort should be made to close gaps as quick as possible.

Next you have to make sure no single person can gain an advantage just by having better tools to start with.
Yes I do mean single player even if the combat is intended to be team based. What I mean by 'tools' is individual abilities, augments, temporary powers and classes.
When you allow these things to overshadow other supposed equal aspects they change the nature of the competition by making either having or countering those abilities, augments, temporary powers and classes a requirement. A good example of this is that in open PvP, stealth attacks of the Stalker made perception boosts much more important than originally intended. If there are too many of these required 'have or counter' things in a game then the competition isn't about tactics or strategy, it is about who has the right tools.
Making sure that abilities rely on skill to succeed and not a 'have or counter' concept is difficult at the best of times, but it is even harder when the abilities, augments, temporary powers and classes were not designed in that manner first and foremost. It goes without saying, but I will anyway, that devs will make mistakes in their design (both in PvE and PvP, but that is beside the point) from time to time and will need to make changes to maintain balance so they should do so in the least disruptive way possible.

Then you need a way to match evenly skilled players against one another.
This is probably the biggest failure that most MMO's have in regards to PvP and most likely leads to the low participation results. You can't just use a characters PvE level as an indicator of their PvP skill because ones ability in PvE does not translate into skill in PvP. You need a proper ranking system that lets the novice learn, the intermediate improve and the advanced compete by facing equal challenges.
Throwing novice players in with the advanced players is like throwing a 5 year old against a professional NBA player. The kid has no chance and won't learn much and the NBA player isn't going to be all that satisfied with beating the kid.
There are lots of ways to implement a ranking system and yes, sadly, they can all be manipulated to some degree. But the trick is to monitor and enforce a fair ranking system to ensure that manipulation is at a minimum. That said, the ranking system should never be the determining factor for what competition can take place. If the players involved want to, they should be able to compete regardless of their rank and those competition should have a handicap system that can be used or not.

Finally you need to be observant of the state of PvP and adjust things to keep it fresh.
Most games do this as a rule of order but sometimes they screw up the reason for it or they try to adjust too much at once.
Keeping things fresh is done by the devs watching for certain tactics or strategies becoming too prevalent and the competitions relying on who can execute those tactics or strategies the best. When that happens it leads to a 'stale' PvP that only the strictest and adherent fans desire with most others moving on after a short period.
As said, these adjustments should be subtle and not outright make that overly common tactic or strategy fail. Instead they should give new paths to countering the tactics and strategies which result in a shift in tactics and strategy overall.

IMO, this is where PvP design should start before any other bells and whistles get added.

There are other things that are not something I consider a requirement of good PvP but they vastly improve it. Things like easy switching of characters and plenty of optional types of PvP being the two that leap to mind the quickest.

It is probably too late to get any significant changes to PvP design in this game now but If this is not where they started with PvP then I hope MWM scraps the system they are developing and delays it until after launch. They could create a system that would draw in more players than it would lose initially if they followed these ideals IMO.

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 16 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
I don't wish to downplay the

I don't wish to downplay the good experiences that some posters have related about PvP. Those experiences sound fun, like playing a game of chess, where one can enter into competition against a superior player and lose with dignity, or win by cleverness. At the end, there's a handshake and a declaration of 'good fight' and possibly one or two teaching moments, by which improvement can be made.

However, that has not been my experience in PvP. My experience in PvP has been the person who realizes that they're losing and TP-Foe's me into the Lava/Trap/NPC Guardian. My experience in PvP has been the stronger character who destroys mine and then spends the next half-hour despising and degrading me. My experience in PvP has been the Gang of PvP'ers who storm into the newbie-hub town, kill all of the Merchants/Bankers/NPCs and then spend hours harassing the youngsters who just want to sell their loot and get back to killing rats. I'm talking level 50s in a level 5 area, demanding that new players accept their challenges and verbal abuse in Broadcast and personal Tells.

My experience in PvP has been of middle-low level characters who spend a half-hour begging my middle-high level character to duel with them and, when I finally agree to demonstrate, proceed to tell me it's "Not Fair" for me to use my powers. Then that it's "Not Fair" for me to use my superior tactics. So, I stop playing with sophistication and simply fight him, Bard vs Warrior in a toe-to-toe slugging match, and he starts screaming that I promised not to kill him. All he has to do is Concede, in order to stop the fight, but he doesn't do that, and, when I give up in disgust and go about my business, the PvP system announces that I've 'run away like a cowardly knave'. That was bad enough, but then the little jerk starts foul-mouthing me in Broadcast...

No, I'm sorry, I have zero tolerance for PvP.

And you PvPers who belittle my position and say, 'Just try it, you'll like it, you silly Carebear!' are really not doing your position any favors.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
How is it that you somehow

How is it that you somehow feel belittled by someone simply because that someone has an opinion that differs from your own. Your position is based on your experience. That position is neither inherently right nor wrong. However, it is what is right for you. I would say that I have had similar experiences or observations of PvP in other games. Its one of the primary reasons I don't PvP in them.

Case in point: Just started back in SWTOR a couple months back so I started a new Sith. In the starter area there was someone challenging everyone and cajoling all those that refused. And in all other games I refuse such challenges. Change of perspective forced me to observe an ongoing dual, and it was obvious that something was amiss. Some adzhat lvl 70 was in the starter area challenging then bragging after he defeated lvl 7 characters. One of the defeated realized he was 70, and protested. Adzhat's respone, "It's fair because the game leveled him down." In reality he had all his powers and double the hit points.

So no one is belittling you or your position, but I find myself highly offended that you would accuse me of such.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

No, I'm sorry, I have zero tolerance for PvP.

Sadly, the experiences you had that made you dislike PvP are all too common in games that blend PvE with PvP. It's for those reasons that I can't play GTAV online.
Bad PvP design will always bring in the worst kind of PvP players. The ganking, exploiting, whining, griefing and venomous trash talking jerks who give PvP a bad name are attracted to bad PvP design. You will still find those kind of people in good PvP but they are much less common.

The thing is, even in bad PvP, you can find small groups of players who actively try to make it fun for all involved. The problem is to find them it requires a lot more effort than people who have become jaded by their past experiences want to invest. So as a result it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Someone dislikes PvP and when they give it another chance by jumping into the quickest form of PvP they are most likely to have the same negative experience that they had in the past which just reinforces their dislike of PvP.

Despite what others say, this isn't the fault of the player, it's because the system doesn't safeguard against those initial negative impressions. It's true that if the player who dislikes PvP puts in a lot more effort they could find the 'fun' that other PvP players talk about. But they shouldn't have to put in a lot of effort to find fun.
That effort should be spent having fun.
A player shouldn't have to suffer through a bunch of bad experiences just to get to the good ones. By bad experiences I don't mean losing, I mean things like ganking, exploiting, whining, griefing and venomous trash talking jerks.

By having the systems and safeguards I suggested earlier in the thread I think you can limit those bad experiences which quickly drive jaded or less interested players away. I think those systems and safeguards would actually make more players stick around because finding the 'fun' wouldn't be such an effort.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Responses:

Responses:

1. Joe would himself have described it as dirtbagging. In this case the guy whom he dirtbagged had dirtbagged HIM in a previous tourney, and this was sweet revenge.

2. All I meant to say about PvPers and their complaints about PvP experiences in MMO games is "Take the 'it's not fair' complaints with a grain of salt." because those making them are often VERY salty about having lost fair and square through misplays, bad builds, bad strategy, etc and they look for something else to blame. It's the old saw that only 1% of PvP losses occur due to "I got outplayed" and the other 99% come from "bleeping BS", according to the losers, while 100% of the wins are from "my innate superiority over the opponent".

3. I don't hate PvP or PvPers in the sense that I would be opposed to those people having their brand of fun with each other. I just think both PvE and PvP games would be better at serving their constituent players if MMORPGs didn't try to be PvP games and PvP games didn't try to be RPGs. There's such a thing as serving a niche well and not trying to be all things to all people.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Responses:
1. Joe would himself have described it as dirtbagging. In this case the guy whom he dirtbagged had dirtbagged HIM in a previous tourney, and this was sweet revenge.
2. All I meant to say about PvPers and their complaints about PvP experiences in MMO games is "Take the 'it's not fair' complaints with a grain of salt." because those making them are often VERY salty about having lost fair and square through misplays, bad builds, bad strategy, etc and they look for something else to blame. It's the old saw that only 1% of PvP losses occur due to "I got outplayed" and the other 99% come from "bleeping BS", according to the losers, while 100% of the wins are from "my innate superiority over the opponent".
3. I don't hate PvP or PvPers in the sense that I would be opposed to those people having their brand of fun with each other. I just think both PvE and PvP games would be better at serving their constituent players if MMORPGs didn't try to be PvP games and PvP games didn't try to be RPGs. There's such a thing as serving a niche well and not trying to be all things to all people.

Just curious. Have you participated in the competitive games in GW2? If so, do you like them or are they a drudgery to endure in order to get your dailies? For me it's about 50/50. I prefer the race the most. If CoT had competitive games, would you participate in those?

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
My experience at anything

My experience at anything resembling PvP in GW2 has been limited to racing for golden armor at Southwatch in the warm-ups to the Octovine raid. That and the mushroom kicking contest at Northwatch, a few times, which I am LOUSY at. I have never once delved into world V world combat or PvP of any kind on GW2 and haven't even thought about starting. I'm also in a guild and have never done a single guild activity becuae they demand teamspeak, which I haven't bothered to install out of sheer laziness and lack of any real motivation to do that stuff.

As far as like or dislike of the Auric Basin Octovine pre-events, I think they're fun. Even the mushroom kicking which I'm bad at isn't unpleasant to participate in. But there nobody's really trolling or trying to get under your skin usually. One time a guy raced for armor and ditched the armor after winning all 6 races, just to be a jerk. We still won the meta event anyway.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Fireheart
Fireheart's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 16 min ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/05/2013 - 13:45
Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

Just curious. Have you participated in the competitive games in GW2? If so, do you like them or are they a drudgery to endure in order to get your dailies? For me it's about 50/50. I prefer the race the most. If CoT had competitive games, would you participate in those?

@Radiac I believe Nyxz means the 'Daily Activity' events accessed in Lion's Arch. For me, they're a little bit of a drudgery, but I do try to participate with a positive attitude. What I don't do is volunteer to play, unless I have to, for the Dailies.

'Sanctum Sprint' obstacle race is my favorite, too and I always seem to place okay in the list of winners. Second favorite is the 'Keg Brawl' (Rugby with barrels of Ale) and the aspects of teamwork in it. Most of the time, though, I end up in 'Crab Toss' (smear the queer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(game)#Muckle, with additional hazards) and often, I just run around smashing crates and drinking Southsun Punch, but other times I'll take an interest in carrying the crab for a few seconds. 'Southsun Survival' is my least favorite, a scavenger hunt for weapons with which to kill your fellow players. At least the defeated can continue to play, by ghosting around and putting 'curses' on the ones that are still alive.

Technically, all of these 'games' within the game are competitive and offer ways to disrupt, or outright attack other players, so they count as PvP in my book, however I've never seen or 'heard' anyone make a rude comment to another player. This sort of thing may not be my first choice in gameplay, but I find them acceptable. Well, except for the deliberate kill-fest of 'Survival'.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

All I meant to say about PvPers and their complaints about PvP experiences in MMO games is "Take the 'it's not fair' complaints with a grain of salt." because those making them are often VERY salty about having lost fair and square through misplays, bad builds, bad strategy, etc and they look for something else to blame. It's the old saw that only 1% of PvP losses occur due to "I got outplayed" and the other 99% come from "bleeping BS", according to the losers, while 100% of the wins are from "my innate superiority over the opponent".

I agree the devs should take complaints with a grain of salt.
It's like how a player complains about farming in PvE when often all they really want is for everyone else to play the game their way.
See what I did there? I obviously don't think that most complaints about farming are because of selfish people trying to change how others play anymore than I think most complaints about PvP are because some guy is upset he lost.

It's not the core of the opinion I object to (take complaints with a grain of salt), it's the manner in which you support the opinion. You assign a negative motive to a majority of the people doing the complaining.
All that does is offend people and starts fights that no one can win.

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Well it is disappointing that

Well it is disappointing that some of you had such terrible experiences. I can see why this would affect your overall view and tolerance towards PVP. I guess everyone experiences things differently.

While I played in PVP zones, I never talked down to people who were new to PVP or were at a disadvantage. That would be completely childish and I dont get why people do that. The only time that kind of stuff came up was when a specific player would go after me over and over or get his team to gank me, then I would be forced to seek out some sweet revenge and fight fire with fire. It was never anything horrible, just stupid things like, "nice death noob," much more toned down than the stuff they sent me lol

Either way I am excited to see how PVP is on CoT and hopeful its executed in a way where more people can enjoy their time there.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
On the general subject of how

On the general subject of how PvP could work in CoT, I think there's something MWM could do up front to give everyone the ability to make a well-informed decision when making PvP toons, or when deciding to do PvP with whatever toon they have. What they could do is tell people, publicly, the following information by way of a disclaimer or something:

1. We will continue to tweak the powers, sets, Augments, Refinements, etc over time, as basically all games do, and this may occasionally cause you to want to delete a toon and start over due to the new thing having an effect on the PvP game. We don't apologize for this and we want you understand that we expect to have to do this on a continual basis as time goes on and we get more data on how the game plays. All rules. mechanics, powers, etc are subject to change over time.

2. Balancing the game does not mean making every class/build viable in PvP. Fighting a PvP match with a level 5 toon versus a level 50 toon is probably not fair. All kinds of different scenarios that might happen in PvP are not fair. PvP is often not fair, which is why it's completely optional. Different classes might be able to totally dominate the PvP playing field and others might be almost impossible to win with 1 on 1. That's not abnormal or anything we intend to "fix". It is left entirely to the PvP players to come up with whatever version of fairness they feel they need. We will provide tools to let you know what level, class, etc everyone is, and you can figure it out from there on your own. There's a reason featherweights don't box heavyweights in real life, and there's a reason one class/build might not want to PvP against a different class/build if fairness is a priority.

3. We make no promises that your win/loss record in PvP will always be the result of skill alone. Luck is a thing, not all builds are any good in PvP and not all fights that are possible are fair.

And if it were up to me personally, the sort of "enter at your own risk" PvP zones where people run around stealthed and gank unsuspecting passers by would not exist at all, because there's just too much freedom for griefing/trolling. If they do do that, perhaps we might want to add another disclaimer:

4. Yes, a group of several dedicated griefers can and probably will dominate entire outdoor areas sometimes. If this bothers you, don't PvP.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Huckleberry
Huckleberry's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 18 min ago
Joined: 01/03/2016 - 08:39
@Radiac, that is mostly a

@Radiac, that is mostly a good set of disclaimers to establish a good set of expectations. But I wouldn't do it outright like that. Rather, I would do it with dialogue from NPCs and posted flyers, bulletins and graffiti to take care of it.

I would avoid point number 4, however.
Telling everyone that griefing will occur is tantamount to encouraging griefing. The reason griefing is even called griefing is because it is viewed as less than savory by the general public, and that includes the PvP playing public. To say in the disclaimer that griefing will occur basically creates a socially acceptable excuse for griefers to exist, and flourish.

Griefers will exist, but so long as they think they are being less than savory, their bragging will be checked and so will their numbers and behavior. As soon as the game developers say that griefers exist and that all players should beware, they will come out of the woodwork like cockroaches with the excuse that "you were warned I would be here, and if it wasn't me it would be another"


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

Nyxz wrote:
Just curious. Have you participated in the competitive games in GW2? If so, do you like them or are they a drudgery to endure in order to get your dailies? For me it's about 50/50. I prefer the race the most. If CoT had competitive games, would you participate in those?
@Radiac I believe Nyxz means the 'Daily Activity' events accessed in Lion's Arch. For me, they're a little bit of a drudgery, but I do try to participate with a positive attitude. What I don't do is volunteer to play, unless I have to, for the Dailies.
'Sanctum Sprint' obstacle race is my favorite, too and I always seem to place okay in the list of winners. Second favorite is the 'Keg Brawl' (Rugby with barrels of Ale) and the aspects of teamwork in it. Most of the time, though, I end up in 'Crab Toss' (smear the queer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(game)#Muckle, with additional hazards) and often, I just run around smashing crates and drinking Southsun Punch, but other times I'll take an interest in carrying the crab for a few seconds. 'Southsun Survival' is my least favorite, a scavenger hunt for weapons with which to kill your fellow players. At least the defeated can continue to play, by ghosting around and putting 'curses' on the ones that are still alive.
Technically, all of these 'games' within the game are competitive and offer ways to disrupt, or outright attack other players, so they count as PvP in my book, however I've never seen or 'heard' anyone make a rude comment to another player. This sort of thing may not be my first choice in gameplay, but I find them acceptable. Well, except for the deliberate kill-fest of 'Survival'.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Yes, those were the one's I was thinking of specifically. And you listed your preferences directly inline with my own. Though some are fun, I've never gone out of my way to do them except when necessary for dailies. Likewise, I have never heard a disparaging word.

As for them being PvP, that's why I was asking Radiac to see if there was any level of competitive play that he might me interested in and where that line may lie. What I'm trying to think about now is what kind of competitive games would be interesting in a super setting.

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

And if it were up to me personally, the sort of "enter at your own risk" PvP zones where people run around stealthed and gank unsuspecting passers by would not exist at all, because there's just too much freedom for griefing/trolling. If they do do that, perhaps we might want to add another disclaimer:.

My preference would be that no one in PvP would be capable of one shotting anyone; including prelaid minefields.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

What they could do is tell people, publicly, the following information by way of a disclaimer or something:

Disclaimers don't work as preventative measure. They are to protect the ones who make the disclaim.

Do you think many people will try PvP after reading a pop-up that ridiculous. The amount of bad in this idea reaches the levels of New Coke, Jar Jar Binks and if Skeletor and Voldemort had a love child.

Seriously, why is it so many people who say they don't like, want or will PvP the ones who become the most vocal about it?

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Just setup PvP to be like

Just setup PvP to be like Blade and Soul :)

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Radiac wrote:
What they could do is tell people, publicly, the following information by way of a disclaimer or something:
Disclaimers don't work as preventative measure. They are to protect the ones who make the disclaim.
Do you think many people will try PvP after reading a pop-up that ridiculous. The amount of bad in this idea reaches the levels of New Coke, Jar Jar Binks and if Skeletor and Voldemort had a love child.
Seriously, why is it so many people who say they don't like, want or will PvP the ones who become the most vocal about it?

It was never my intention to get more people to try PvP by having the disclaimers. The intent was to head off the usual complaints of PvPers before they get started. It was for the devs to have something to point to when PvPers start complaining that the game isn't working as it's "supposed to" because they're losing too often for their own tastes. Also, I'm against putting valuable PvE stuff in PvP zones just to lure more victims into those areas for the PvPers to prey upon, for the record.

But my main point is, let PvP be imbalanced and let the PvPers police who get's to fight whom as they want. If a given class is totally useless in PvP, don't try to PvP with it. Or only PvP that class against other people playing that class, etc. PvPers can organize team and solo PvP matches in such a way that things are as fair or unfair as they agree to, or they can agree to have a slaughterfest free for all in the open areas of the PvP server/shard if they want. In any event, it's not the devs job to make any one persons toon the uber, or even just good enough to compete, or survive for that matter. Enter at your own risk, in other words.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

Brainbot wrote:
Radiac wrote:
What they could do is tell people, publicly, the following information by way of a disclaimer or something:
Disclaimers don't work as preventative measure. They are to protect the ones who make the disclaim.
Do you think many people will try PvP after reading a pop-up that ridiculous. The amount of bad in this idea reaches the levels of New Coke, Jar Jar Binks and if Skeletor and Voldemort had a love child.
Seriously, why is it so many people who say they don't like, want or will PvP the ones who become the most vocal about it?
It was never my intention to get more people to try PvP by having the disclaimers. The intent was to head off the usual complaints of PvPers before they get started. It was for the devs to have something to point to when PvPers start complaining that the game isn't working as it's "supposed to" because they're losing too often for their own tastes. Also, I'm against putting valuable PvE stuff in PvP zones just to lure more victims into those areas for the PvPers to prey upon, for the record.
But my main point is, let PvP be imbalanced and let the PvPers police who get's to fight whom as they want. If a given class is totally useless in PvP, don't try to PvP with it. Or only PvP that class against other people playing that class, etc. PvPers can organize team and solo PvP matches in such a way that things are as fair or unfair as they agree to, or they can agree to have a slaughterfest free for all in the open areas of the PvP server/shard if they want. In any event, it's not the devs job to make any one persons toon the uber, or even just good enough to compete, or survive for that matter. Enter at your own risk, in other words.

Can you put a disclaimer on yourself that you are about to generalizing and bad mouth all pvpers in your comments?

For example:

"when PvPers start complaining that the game isn't working"

and

"just to lure more victims into those areas for the PvPers to prey upon"

These kinds of comments make me think you are, in a way, acting like the PVP'ers you seem to hate...

notears
notears's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/04/2013 - 17:24
okay okay okay... are people

okay okay okay... are people name calling here? That really screws up the formula for let's argues!! Who's name calling here?

notears
notears's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/04/2013 - 17:24
If people start name calling

If people start name calling then I'm going to delete this entire thread I crap you not...

Greyhawk
Greyhawk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 months 1 day ago
11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 01/03/2015 - 19:17
Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

However, that has not been my experience in PvP. My experience in PvP has been the person who realizes that they're losing and TP-Foe's me into the Lava/Trap/NPC Guardian. My experience in PvP has been the stronger character who destroys mine and then spends the next half-hour despising and degrading me. My experience in PvP has been the Gang of PvP'ers who storm into the newbie-hub town, kill all of the Merchants/Bankers/NPCs and then spend hours harassing the youngsters who just want to sell their loot and get back to killing rats. I'm talking level 50s in a level 5 area, demanding that new players accept their challenges and verbal abuse in Broadcast and personal Tells.

Fireheart

In Lineage II I was fond of making new characters to experiment with different approaches to the basic skill trees. There wasn't much to work with, nothing like the diversity and range of CoH, but choices did have to be made and different choices produced different results. (Now, of course, it's much different and everyone winds up almost exactly the same after level 80. Balance you know. They had to balance out the higher levels for the one-on-one battles in their Hero Tournament.)

So I was in the Human starter town one time. I'd made a new mage and was thinking of concentrating on healing, something I had never done up to that point. A level 30 orc (melee class, fast and deadly) showed up on the island, dumped his armor and weapons in the warehouse, and set out with a basic armor set and basic claws to slaughter low-level humans. Six or seven of us ganged up on him, but we couldn't do enough damage. I suspected he had a defense tattoo because physical damage had almost no effect on him. (This was just a couple weeks after tattoos first were introduced and everyone was still figuring them out.) Taking note of his somewhat greater vulnerability to magic damage, I went and retrieved my level 26 Dark Elf mage. She had starter robes and a starter book, that was it. I chased the orc all over the island, forcing my Dark Elf between him and the low-level humans at every opportunity. It turned out he had no jewelry at all, making him very vulnerable to magic even from the underpowered starter book. Two shots and he was down, over and over again.

He called up a couple clan mates, one maxed out magic user and one maxed out warrior. Fortunately, it turned out I knew the island slightly better than they did. Whenever I popped back in after dying, I could get into an ambush position without their noticing on many occasions. Naturally I never defeated the two high level clan mates, but I was able to keep all three of them off-balance enough that they were more focused on locating me than beating up on low level humans.

We had a short chat back and forth as we chased each other around the island. Turned out he wanted to delete his orc because (as I suspected) he'd overdone the physical defense and was constantly dying to Dark Elf mages in open field battles. But on the way out, he thought he'd exercise his sadistic side by beating up on humans. He'd assumed they would be easy prey and he wanted to feel powerful. I sort of ruined his whole day. He spent a lot of time telling me I ought to just leave him alone and go power level my mage. He even offered me a set of robes and a staff from his clan warehouse if I would just go away and leave him alone.

A month or two later, armed with new robes and enchanted dual blades, my Dark Elf was out hunting in The Forest of Mirrors when those two clanmates showed up with a low-thirties orc warrior in tow. As soon as they saw me, the three of them immediately logged off.

I guess it was a bad day to power level, or maybe they just needed lunch.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My author page at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B000APIPZC?ref_=pe_584750_33951330

Lin Chiao Feng
Lin Chiao Feng's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/02/2013 - 09:27
notears wrote:
notears wrote:

okay okay okay... are people name calling here? That really screws up the formula for let's argues!! Who's name calling here?

These things have a formula beyond "forums are slow, here's some bait"?

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Radiac wrote:
Brainbot wrote:
Radiac wrote:
What they could do is tell people, publicly, the following information by way of a disclaimer or something:
Disclaimers don't work as preventative measure. They are to protect the ones who make the disclaim.
Do you think many people will try PvP after reading a pop-up that ridiculous. The amount of bad in this idea reaches the levels of New Coke, Jar Jar Binks and if Skeletor and Voldemort had a love child.
Seriously, why is it so many people who say they don't like, want or will PvP the ones who become the most vocal about it?
It was never my intention to get more people to try PvP by having the disclaimers. The intent was to head off the usual complaints of PvPers before they get started. It was for the devs to have something to point to when PvPers start complaining that the game isn't working as it's "supposed to" because they're losing too often for their own tastes. Also, I'm against putting valuable PvE stuff in PvP zones just to lure more victims into those areas for the PvPers to prey upon, for the record.
But my main point is, let PvP be imbalanced and let the PvPers police who get's to fight whom as they want. If a given class is totally useless in PvP, don't try to PvP with it. Or only PvP that class against other people playing that class, etc. PvPers can organize team and solo PvP matches in such a way that things are as fair or unfair as they agree to, or they can agree to have a slaughterfest free for all in the open areas of the PvP server/shard if they want. In any event, it's not the devs job to make any one persons toon the uber, or even just good enough to compete, or survive for that matter. Enter at your own risk, in other words.
Can you put a disclaimer on yourself that you are about to generalizing and bad mouth all pvpers in your comments?
For example:
"when PvPers start complaining that the game isn't working"
and
"just to lure more victims into those areas for the PvPers to prey upon"
These kinds of comments make me think you are, in a way, acting like the PVP'ers you seem to hate...

I don't think it's "bad mouthing" or an insult of any kind to say that PvPers will eventually complain about the PvP, no matter what it's like. Defining those who will complain as "complainers" is not an inappropriate epithet, it's an accurate description of those people. Those who will complain are, by definition, logically, complainers. I mean there are internet memes devoted to the idea that people who lose at PvP tend to blame everything else for it, at this point. It's a well-known thing.

Also, LOOONG ago the discussion happened on this forum that the practice of putting cool stuff in the PvP areas so as to encourage PvE players to go there and participate in PvP they might have otherwise chosen to completely avoid i.e. laying out "bait" for the "victims" , was pretty much deemed a non-starter for CoT. The devs, correct me if I'm wrong, stated somewhere that they're not going to do that. If you don't like my use of words like "victims" and so forth, I don't care. I think it's an accurate description of the process that had happened in the CoX PvP zones, by design. I think Posi and Emmert (or whomever) knew that they were going to have some people who wanted to lay in wait for less-well-prepared toons to enter a PvP zone and then jump them to get joy out of scoring an easy win, and they needed to have some draw to get the less-well-prepared players to want to go to those zones for that to happen. Voila, the Warburg Nukes and Jellomen were born. And the process of getting those required a lot of moving around the maps so as to expose yourself to attacks from all sides. It was the intended conflict-creator for each zone. It was on purpose that they did it that way. I don't think calling the well-equipped, dedicated PvPers "predators" and the not-so-well-prepared PvEer looking for jellomen "victims" is inaccurate or insulting in any way. I think it's a reasonable description of the interaction those toons had in that game at that time.

So I make no apologies for calling those who complain complainers, those who prey upon the less-well-prepared predators, and those who go into a situation mostly unprepared for what lies ahead victims. They are, to me, literally accurate terms for those people in those situations.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Fools rush in where angels

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

If you want to set up an ambush, there is no better bait than an apparent carebear on a temp run. Nothing like having a full team in backup close by and in full stealth mode waiting for a ganker to rear their sadistic head(s). Will likely be much harder to pretend to be a carebear in CoT.

Fortunately all exploration badges will be the same in both PvP or PvE phases. Any potential temporary powers earnable in the PvP phase should only be acquirable vis-à-vis actual PvPing.

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

So I make no apologies for calling those who complain complainers, those who prey upon the less-well-prepared predators, and those who go into a situation mostly unprepared for what lies ahead victims. They are, to me, literally accurate terms for those people in those situations.

Your literal and overly broad definitions could be applied to anyone. PvP players, PvE players, people who swallow wrong and start choking... pretty much anyone you can think of. Your original use of those words, despite you current rationalization, was a blatant condemnation of PvP and those who engage in it.

I don't expect you to apologize but it would be nice if you didn't actively try to derail discussions by starting fights. We don't need a fairly accurate rendition of Tom, Bert and Bill.

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 17 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

rendition of Tom, Bert and Bill.

This sounds like a old timey bluegrass song.

/derail

Brainbot
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 3 weeks ago
Joined: 04/25/2016 - 21:30
Yeah it's from the album

Yeah it's from the album 'There and Back Again' released in 1937.

Cobalt Azurean
Cobalt Azurean's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 17 min ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/03/2013 - 16:39
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Yeah it's from the album 'There and Back Again' released in 1937.

Back when Tolkien was busking to pay for his book to get published. Good times, good times.

Radiac
Radiac's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 8 hours ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/19/2013 - 15:12
I just want to re-iterate

I just want to re-iterate that I think it would result in more enjoyable game play experiences for all involved if MWM abandoned PvP as a part of CoT and simply spun it off into a separate, free-standing FPS game all it's own. That way, you could have specific champions that the players all get to pilot, with set powers, symmetric maps so nobody has a geography advantage, power-ups that spawn in different places at different time, etc.

That said, MWM already promised what they promised, so the bed is made, so to speak, and it will have to be slept in as such.

R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
ALL. So basically WE have no

ALL. So basically WE have no place (or right to exist) in the CoT world (PvP or PvE) and should just disappear and cease to exist. Explains why you are repeatedly coming to this thread with the sole intention of starting flamewars.

notears
notears's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/04/2013 - 17:24
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

notears wrote:
okay okay okay... are people name calling here? That really screws up the formula for let's argues!! Who's name calling here?
These things have a formula beyond "forums are slow, here's some bait"?

Yeah, this is meant to be something where we bring up what we want from pvp, and we bring up points either for or against other's opinions on how PVP should be handled. Name calling and insulting other people? Doesn't really help...

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
notears wrote:
okay okay okay... are people name calling here? That really screws up the formula for let's argues!! Who's name calling here?
These things have a formula beyond "forums are slow, here's some bait"?
Yeah, this is meant to be something where we bring up what we want from pvp, and we bring up points either for or against other's opinions on how PVP should be handled. Name calling and insulting other people? Doesn't really help...

^ This.

Lin Chiao Feng
Lin Chiao Feng's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 month 1 week ago
Developerkickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/02/2013 - 09:27
notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Name calling and insulting other people? Doesn't really help...

Doesn't help at all. Issues, not people.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

notears
notears's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/04/2013 - 17:24
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

notears wrote:
Name calling and insulting other people? Doesn't really help...
Doesn't help at all. Issues, not people.

Alright so I've been wondering... are these let's argues really all that helpful for you devs?

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
notears wrote:
Name calling and insulting other people? Doesn't really help...
Doesn't help at all. Issues, not people.
Alright so I've been wondering... are these let's argues really all that helpful for you devs?

Why don't you redirect the discussion to a PvP topic that you want the PvP community to focus on. Such as 1) what kind of open world group events would be feasible, 2) contested missions (bank, kidnapping, etc.) and how should they work, 3) competitive games 4) mission queues to match teams for competitive missions .... etc.

notears
notears's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 4 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 10/04/2013 - 17:24
Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

notears wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
notears wrote:
Name calling and insulting other people? Doesn't really help...
Doesn't help at all. Issues, not people.
Alright so I've been wondering... are these let's argues really all that helpful for you devs?
Why don't you redirect the discussion to a PvP topic that you want the PvP community to focus on. Such as 1) what kind of open world group events would be feasible, 2) contested missions (bank, kidnapping, etc.) and how should they work, 3) competitive games 4) mission queues to match teams for competitive missions .... etc.

I'd rather you direct yourselves... my only real concern is this thread turning into a flame war...

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
notears wrote:
notears wrote:

Nyxz wrote:
notears wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
notears wrote:
Name calling and insulting other people? Doesn't really help...
Doesn't help at all. Issues, not people.
Alright so I've been wondering... are these let's argues really all that helpful for you devs?
Why don't you redirect the discussion to a PvP topic that you want the PvP community to focus on. Such as 1) what kind of open world group events would be feasible, 2) contested missions (bank, kidnapping, etc.) and how should they work, 3) competitive games 4) mission queues to match teams for competitive missions .... etc.
I'd rather you direct yourselves... my only real concern is this thread turning into a flame war...

Noted and agreed. That's why I included the suggestions in the hope that the others who want to contribute CONSTRUCTIVELY to the discussion will pick up on them.

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Just setup PvP to be like Blade and Soul :)

Not all of us have played B&S. In a nutshell, can you describe their system.

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Just setup PvP to be like Blade and Soul :)
Not all of us have played B&S. In a nutshell, can you describe their system.

Hmmm...I don't know how I'd explain it. Arena 1 on 1 or even tag team pvp was just for fun for me, as long as it didn't have bots in it :p Or people who just entered it to get a daily done, so they didn't try to win and hoped the other members of the team would get them a win :p

Open area for the one on one, time limit, so people couldn't do what lots of pvpers in CoH would do. Like run away :p "Running away is legit! Because it can be done! It makes the game so much more fun! YEAH!" No it doesn't :p

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Nyxz wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Just setup PvP to be like Blade and Soul :)
Not all of us have played B&S. In a nutshell, can you describe their system.
Hmmm...I don't know how I'd explain it. Arena 1 on 1 or even tag team pvp was just for fun for me, as long as it didn't have bots in it :p Or people who just entered it to get a daily done, so they didn't try to win and hoped the other members of the team would get them a win :p
Open area for the one on one, time limit, so people couldn't do what lots of pvpers in CoH would do. Like run away :p "Running away is legit! Because it can be done! It makes the game so much more fun! YEAH!" No it doesn't :p

I tried looking it up but couldn't find much. The unique things I noted were the sparring and factions. How do they determine skill level when they match people for arena duels?

Brand X
Brand X's picture
Online
Last seen: 9 min 15 sec ago
kickstarter11th Anniversary Badge
Joined: 11/01/2013 - 00:26
Nyxz wrote:
Nyxz wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Nyxz wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Just setup PvP to be like Blade and Soul :)
Not all of us have played B&S. In a nutshell, can you describe their system.
Hmmm...I don't know how I'd explain it. Arena 1 on 1 or even tag team pvp was just for fun for me, as long as it didn't have bots in it :p Or people who just entered it to get a daily done, so they didn't try to win and hoped the other members of the team would get them a win :p
Open area for the one on one, time limit, so people couldn't do what lots of pvpers in CoH would do. Like run away :p "Running away is legit! Because it can be done! It makes the game so much more fun! YEAH!" No it doesn't :p
I tried looking it up but couldn't find much. The unique things I noted were the sparring and factions. How do they determine skill level when they match people for arena duels?

Oh yes! The open world and how it works!

Basically you flag yourself for it, by putting on a factions outfit, you tag yourself for PvP.

However, there is the main two factions, which you have to pick a side for and cannot wear the other sides outfit at all. When you put on your sides outfit, anyone wearing the other sides outfit can attack you.

The other smaller factions, you can actually switch between easily. Works like the main factions, except you can switch to the other side, just be changing the outfit.

If you get beat to much and tired of respawning, they give you the option to respawn out of the outfit, so then you can't be touched.

PvP was needed in B&S to progress, so not saying it should be done in CoT, however, I do think it would be good idea to have some reasons to pvp besides "Get this pvp IO, which you likely won't get anyways!" :p So, add in some PvE advantages to PvPing!

When it came to the arenas, weapon level didn't matter (it did in open world) and if memory serves, getting more levels meant access to more abilities, but they normalized HP and damage, so you weren't Top Teir Weapons vs Lowest Tier Weapon, when in the areana 1vs1 or Tag Teams.

Nyxz
Nyxz's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 4 days ago
Joined: 10/09/2015 - 03:37
Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Nyxz wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Nyxz wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Just setup PvP to be like Blade and Soul :)
Not all of us have played B&S. In a nutshell, can you describe their system.
Hmmm...I don't know how I'd explain it. Arena 1 on 1 or even tag team pvp was just for fun for me, as long as it didn't have bots in it :p Or people who just entered it to get a daily done, so they didn't try to win and hoped the other members of the team would get them a win :p
Open area for the one on one, time limit, so people couldn't do what lots of pvpers in CoH would do. Like run away :p "Running away is legit! Because it can be done! It makes the game so much more fun! YEAH!" No it doesn't :p
I tried looking it up but couldn't find much. The unique things I noted were the sparring and factions. How do they determine skill level when they match people for arena duels?
Oh yes! The open world and how it works!
Basically you flag yourself for it, by putting on a factions outfit, you tag yourself for PvP.
However, there is the main two factions, which you have to pick a side for and cannot wear the other sides outfit at all. When you put on your sides outfit, anyone wearing the other sides outfit can attack you.
The other smaller factions, you can actually switch between easily. Works like the main factions, except you can switch to the other side, just be changing the outfit.
If you get beat to much and tired of respawning, they give you the option to respawn out of the outfit, so then you can't be touched.
PvP was needed in B&S to progress, so not saying it should be done in CoT, however, I do think it would be good idea to have some reasons to pvp besides "Get this pvp IO, which you likely won't get anyways!" :p So, add in some PvE advantages to PvPing!
When it came to the arenas, weapon level didn't matter (it did in open world) and if memory serves, getting more levels meant access to more abilities, but they normalized HP and damage, so you weren't Top Teir Weapons vs Lowest Tier Weapon, when in the areana 1vs1 or Tag Teams.

Thanks. Now I'm wondering how factions, (in-game faction reps) beyond simply red-vs-blue, can be incorporated into the PvP phase.

Wolfgang8565
Wolfgang8565's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 weeks 5 days ago
Joined: 10/31/2014 - 14:51
Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

Radiac wrote:
So I make no apologies for calling those who complain complainers, those who prey upon the less-well-prepared predators, and those who go into a situation mostly unprepared for what lies ahead victims. They are, to me, literally accurate terms for those people in those situations.
Your literal and overly broad definitions could be applied to anyone. PvP players, PvE players, people who swallow wrong and start choking... pretty much anyone you can think of. Your original use of those words, despite you current rationalization, was a blatant condemnation of PvP and those who engage in it.
I don't expect you to apologize but it would be nice if you didn't actively try to derail discussions by starting fights. We don't need a fairly accurate rendition of Tom, Bert and Bill.

This ^

but alas, lets move on...

Pages