Let's Argue: PvP

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notears
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Let's Argue: PvP

You know what? I trust you guys here's one for PvP

Greyhawk
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I never have and never will

I never have and never will understand the entertainment value of beating another player over the head in a virtual world. Sorry. It's been explained to me a million times and I just don't get it.

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Lothic
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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

I never have and never will understand the entertainment value of beating another player over the head in a virtual world. Sorry. It's been explained to me a million times and I just don't get it.

If by "beating another player over the head in a virtual world" you mean ganking, which is loosely defined as the act of cheap-shoting someone who either wasn't expecting it or wasn't prepared for it then I kind-of almost agree with you. Then again if you ever put yourself in a "PvP enabled" situation then it's pretty much up to you that you could be ganked at any moment.

But if you're having a general problem understanding why multiple consenting players would choose to fight each other instead of NPCs then I don't think I can really help you with that.

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I'm with Greyhawk, I don't

I'm with Greyhawk, I don't understand the choice of competition over cooperation.

Especially when that takes the form of harming the (relatively) innocent.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I'm with Greyhawk, I don't understand the choice of competition over cooperation.
Especially when that takes the form of harming the (relatively) innocent.

My point was as long as everyone who's PvPing CONSENTS to the PvP I don't see a problem with it.
Besides in a Comic Book/Superhero setting it seems completely appropriate to at least have the OPTION to PvP.

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I like the [i]idea[\i] of PVP

I like the idea of PVP, but have had so many bad encounters with it over the years in various games I just don't even bother anymore.

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Honestly... I like the idea

Honestly... I like the idea of PvP, and I would like the PvP to be good PvP, (competition is always good) despite my own personal distaste (and lack of skill) for it.

How about if there was a special mission for PvP. Instead of the city war thing in CoH, what if the Villains were trying to steal a thing within a time limit (or to the route/capture of all villains) while the heroes had to defend the thing in various ways, like setting traps, fighting minions, mercs, and plugging security leaks, alongside fighting and arresting all the villains.

As for Villain v Villain PvP... gang war OR steal the thing.

Basically a tab-target and Capefight version of Payday or the bank robberies from GTA5. (Capefight: A battle between members of the "Super-Community" I.E whenever any superhero and super-villain do battle. Also whenever Supervillains battle in-amongst themselves.)

Also, in order to take pressure away from the devs, I would say that people could make their own heists in the Mission Creator. People could vote for the best ones and they would appear in the PvP screen.

You hear the dead, their bones shake and rattle for you to join them. So you will.

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Huh.
Deathrattle wrote:

Honestly... I like the idea of PvP, and I would like the PvP to be good PvP, despite my own personal distaste (and lack of skill) for it.

I'm with Deathrattle.

I'm a dyed in the wool hero, a big team player when I do team, and not much of a PvPer, but Greyhawk and Fireheart are making me feel like an asshole in comparison :P.

I understand the sentiment, but, I mean, IMOH, if it's consenting and I'm not forced to do it, PvP isn't restrained torture or a dogfight where the poor dogs are forced to fight. It's not even real. And you can always, you know, just not do it. Or leave.

I even jump in PvP once in a long while. And if I get a beatdown and someone talks smack, I know that is probably the most ego-boosting thing they have in their day, or if not they're just genuinely a d*#$, both of which are sad--but not a reason for me to get upset.

Cause I can always, you know, just leave.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I'm a dyed in the wool hero, a big team player when I do team, and not much of a PvPer, but Greyhawk and Fireheart are making me feel like an asshole in comparison :P.

Well, I certainly don't mean to suggest that all competition is bad and you're a bad person!

I generally agree that PvP should be allowed, since some people enjoy it. I'll even admit that I've been tempted to try it a few times and main turn-off is the rampant bad sportsmanship. I might volunteer to try my strength and skill against a live opponent, but I won't volunteer to let some low-brow egomaniac shake his metaphorical wang in my face.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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I've spoken my piece

I've spoken my piece previously about how I feel about PvP and their ilk, and after Tannim222's post in the other thread about how it'll be in a phased and completely optional and voluntary environment, I'm okay with it.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

I never have and never will understand the entertainment value of beating another player over the head in a virtual world. Sorry. It's been explained to me a million times and I just don't get it.

I never understood those who whined about wanting to one vs one pvp, in an open map pvp zone :p

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The problem of PvP, to me, is

The problem of PvP, to me, is that the powers might have to work differently in PvP than in PvE. I don;t care what you do in PvP, but I dislike the idea that my toon's PvE design will be affected by a need to make it less broken or under-powered in PvP. Some people used to complain about their toons being VASTLY different in play in PvP as compared to PvE, and I personally don't care. Let them play differently. It's not the end of the world. I dont think mezlock and taunt effects should work the same on players as PvE critters, so yeah, you might have to tweak stuff.

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I suck at PvP, so while I

I suck at PvP, so while I wouldn't begrudge it being in game, and say more power to those who like it, it's not for me and I certainly don't want "PvP balance" to negatively impact my characters and their PvE performance/ability.

Also, as a badge hunter I HATED having to go to PvP zones to get exploration badges. PvP kill badges or rewards or whatever, Fine. I can simply accept that I'll never earn those, but Exploration badges? They're RIGHT THERE! I don't have to DO anything... except get to them without getting ganked a dozen times... so stressful.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

The problem of PvP, to me, is that the powers might have to work differently in PvP than in PvE. I don;t care what you do in PvP, but I dislike the idea that my toon's PvE design will be affected by a need to make it less broken or under-powered in PvP. Some people used to complain about their toons being VASTLY different in play in PvP as compared to PvE, and I personally don't care. Let them play differently. It's not the end of the world. I dont think mezlock and taunt effects should work the same on players as PvE critters, so yeah, you might have to tweak stuff.

I disagree. I hate the idea of having to have multiple builds.

However, I also hated it when RPing with people who would PvP AND RP and then go "Let me switch to a totally different build for this PvP battle brought up by RP, because I feel my whatever/whatever build will lose to your Regen Scrapper" :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I never understood those who whined about wanting to one vs one pvp, in an open map pvp zone :p

If the Arenas never existed then I could almost see people getting legitimately upset having their 1-on-1 duels messed with in the open PvP zones. But since the Arenas were specifically designed for closed/controlled PvP encounters I never had much sympathy for people who whined about having their duels griefed in the open zones.

Considering that most griefers usually liked to gank care-bear badge collectors the idea that they also sometimes annoyed their fellow PvPers was amusing to say the least. ;)

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

Brand X
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
I never understood those who whined about wanting to one vs one pvp, in an open map pvp zone :p
If the Arenas never existed then I could almost see people getting legitimately upset having their 1-on-1 duels messed with in the open PvP zones. But since the Arenas were specifically designed for closed/controlled PvP encounters I never had much sympathy for people who whined about having their duels griefed in the open zones.
Considering that most griefers usually liked to gank care-bear badge collectors the idea that they also sometimes annoyed their fellow PvPers was amusing to say the least. ;)

I just recall an instance where I entered a pvp zone, a fight was going on, I jumped in and then people whined. :p How is anyone supposed to know in an open pvp zone, when people are dueling, if they just entered. Waiting to find out could just get you killed.

But like you said, there was arenas specifically for 1 on 1 dueling, so I always felt their whining was for not and maybe they were just the type that needed an audience, like those RPers who would break the story/lore and RP fight in Pocket D. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I disagree. I hate the idea of having to have multiple builds.
However, I also hated it when RPing with people who would PvP AND RP and then go "Let me switch to a totally different build for this PvP battle brought up by RP, because I feel my whatever/whatever build will lose to your Regen Scrapper" :p

I mean, there are theoretically people that can swap out their powers. Anybody that uses tech equipment is probably the best example I can think of.

Still a bit silly, though.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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Arenas: where nobody went

Arenas: where nobody went after the first month or so.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Arenas: where nobody went after the first month or so.

Oh I won't try to suggest that the CoH Arenas were the "super-cool" hangout spots that everyone loved. But at least they existed and if you were that hyper serious about having uninterrupted PvP dueling sessions then those were the obvious places to do that.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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When I first played COH I

When I first played COH I avoided PVP zones and only did missions and PVE but towards the end of my time playing I was in King's Row every day. I get it that some of you may hate PVP but I feel it is an experience everyone should try.

In PVP you have to get creative with your abilities and create tactics to defeat other heroes based on their abilities which I feel created a whole different aspect of gameplay for me. It was intense going into a zone, and not knowing if there was a stalker standing right next to you getting ready to AS, or if a team of people were about to descend upon you and gank you. It was about always being on your toes, being aware of your surroundings, always having an escape plan, and seeking out revenge.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I get it that some of you may hate PVP but I feel it is an experience everyone should try.

Unfortunately the people who tend to claim they "hate PvP" aren't the people who have -never- tried it. They're usually the people who -have- tried it but got ganked enough times they decided to give up on it. People who have never tried it can't honestly tell you they "hate" it and know that for sure.

It's fine either way - there's no law that says everyone must love PvP. *shrugs*

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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I prefer my competitive

I prefer my competitive engagements to start with a level playing field and I don't think any MMO can really do that.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Unfortunately the people who tend to claim they "hate PvP" aren't the people who have -never- tried it. They're usually the people who -have- tried it but got ganked enough times they decided to give up on it.

I'm in that camp. Never had the HO-loaded build you needed to survive, and as a blaster with no mez protection, my time in PvP zones was split between 1) nobody is around, and 2) suddenly dirt nap.

Once you're mezzed, you're not playing the game any more, just watching helplessly as your character dies. And folks usually had enough of those mez powers that you'd burn through a full tray of purple anti-mez inspirations in a few minutes, especially after their duration was cut from a couple minutes to 30 seconds.

So yeah, most of us had our reasons for not wanting to be cannon fodder and finding our fun elsewhere.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

I prefer my competitive engagements to start with a level playing field and I don't think any MMO can really do that.

Just curious: Is your concern about "a level playing field" related to the idea that every AT/class is fundamentally different so even if you faced a 1-on-1 opponent who was essentially equal to you in all ways except AT/class that you would still consider that "unlevel" or are you referring to the idea that you could never find "reasonable" opponents who are willing to honorably spar with you without some idiot wanting to jump in just to gank you?

I could see if you're questioning a game's fundamental ability to balance AT/classes against each other but if you're just griping because most PvPers prove themselves to be idiots in open PvP zones then at least those factors can be controlled (via PvPing in the Arena for instance).

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Lothic
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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Once you're mezzed, you're not playing the game any more, just watching helplessly as your character dies. And folks usually had enough of those mez powers that you'd burn through a full tray of purple anti-mez inspirations in a few minutes, especially after their duration was cut from a couple minutes to 30 seconds.

Well not that I'm actually trying to get anyone to try PvP again in CoT but if the changes they are planning to make Control powers less "binary" and function more on a "spectrum of effects" actually works then many of the "perma-hold" scenarios that plagued PvP should be mitigated.

I'm honestly skeptical it'll make things vastly better myself but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I get it that some of you may hate PVP but I feel it is an experience everyone should try.
Unfortunately the people who tend to claim they "hate PvP" aren't the people who have -never- tried it. They're usually the people who -have- tried it but got ganked enough times they decided to give up on it. People who have never tried it can't honestly tell you they "hate" it and know that for sure.
It's fine either way - there's no law that says everyone must love PvP. *shrugs*

Exactly.

Besides that, in my experience, the die hard pvpers are usually the fotm builds, who like to kill lone targets with their group or the targets they massively outlevel.

In my experience, those who love open world pvpers are just gankers :p

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TP PC 'Foe' into massive

TP PC 'Foe' into massive damage is such a test of Skill, right?

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

In my experience, those who love open world pvpers are just gankers :p

Fireheart wrote:

TP PC 'Foe' into massive damage is such a test of Skill, right?

Ironically the people I tend to feel sorriest for are the handful of "honorable" PvPers who are out there. These are the folks who only want to fight other "consenting" PvPers in an organized non-ganky way. Surprisingly enough there are a few of those people out there - unfortunately maybe 95% of the rest of them are just opportunistic gankers who only like to sucker-punch people because they're either too afraid and/or unskilled to fight people fairly.

Sadly open world PvP does nothing but encourage the 95% to keep doing what they do to the detriment of everyone else.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Brand X wrote:
In my experience, those who love open world pvpers are just gankers :p
Fireheart wrote:
TP PC 'Foe' into massive damage is such a test of Skill, right?
Ironcially the people I tend to feel sorriest for are the handful of "honorable" PvPers who are out there. These are the folks who only want to fight other "consenting" PvPers in an organized non-ganky way. Surprisingly enough there are a few of those people out there - unfortunately maybe 95% of the rest of them are just opportunitic gankers who only like to sucker-punch people because they're either too afraid and/or unskilled to fight people fairly.
Sadly open world PvP does nothing but encourage the 95% to keep doing what they do to the deteriment of everyone else.

They're afraid to die, is what it is.

When ever I went into an open pvp zone in CoH, I was never afraid to die. It's why after I'd get beat down by a team versus my one, I'd rush right back out and take them all on again. :p

The funny part is, they'd then whine to me how it's dumb for me to come out one vs team (nvm that I didn't have anyone to team with) and then whine if they had no one to fight against int he first place. :p

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Yeah, I mean, you're all

Yeah, I mean, you're all right. PvP is a cluser#$&#. But that's what it is and some people like it.

I'm like BrandX. On the rare occasion I was in the mood, I'd go out solo and die over and over, only occasionally taking down one of the group who were attacking me (but that usually on my toughest solo-built character and even two or three had a bit of work killing me). Or I'd go join a team and, as usual, die as often as I killed. I didn't get upset about "dying" and I didn't care about the crap-talking douches--cause that's just what PvP is. That's why I didn't do it unless I was in the mood.

But I wouldn't have rathered that it weren't there, because it satisfied those folks, brought revenue to the game I loved, gave me something unusual to do when bored with my normal routine, and, most importantly--I didn't have to do it if I didn't want to and could stop at any time.

And, evidently, in CoT you'll be able to happily play like it doesn't even exist.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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My readout on pvp in this

My readout on pvp in this game so far has not been very encouraging. While it is possible, my view is it takes a huge commitment from both the players and the developers to make it an overall fun experience. I am not sure either group here has that level of commitment to this one aspect of the game. It simply may not be worth the trouble to have much more than quasi-anarchy. To have great sport, you need some kind of standards for sportsmanship, fairness, and rules of engagement. Much of the player sentiment has been (understandably) quite negative already. So self-fufilling prophecy would suggest there isn't a huge incentive to turn things around in a positive way from the player community at large. And for their part, all the devs have said is that pvp will be optional. While I am all for optional, that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement to adhere or enforce the standards I mentioned above. In this case, "optional" could just as easily mean "We are going to make pvp areas and after we do, we pretty much won't care how players act in them." If that happens, I don't expect much to change in terms of pvp experiences.

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For me, PvP enjoyment was

For me, PvP enjoyment was always a function of confidence.

Once I realized that I could actually defeat another player, I was far more likely to enjoy PvP as the challenge it was meant to be. Like most things in life, PvP in MMOs is able to deliver some pretty high highs, so long as you are okay with being dealt some pretty low lows as well.

I think that's why there is such a strong market for PvP games now, from MOBAs to FPS arenas.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Just curious: Is your concern about "a level playing field"

Well, it's not a concern it's a preference. Not being argumentative, just clarifying.

And as to what I mean by 'level playing field'. Skill and chance is the only thing I want determining the outcome. I don't want which Class, power set, gear or level of the characters involved weighing in at all.

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Well not that I'm actually trying to get anyone to try PvP again in CoT but if the changes they are planning to make Control powers less "binary" and function more on a "spectrum of effects" actually works then many of the "perma-hold" scenarios that plagued PvP should be mitigated.
I'm honestly skeptical it'll make things vastly better myself but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, I'm definitely not going to hold CoH PvP against CoT.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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The picture you guys are

The picture you guys are painting makes PVP sound horrible lol.

I'm gonna try to pitch the good things about it. It wasn't always like you walk in and immediately die over and over. I remember many times just hanging out and talking about dumb things, with heroes and villains alike. Once in a while you get someone trying to kill you, and sometimes those around you help kill them, or sometimes you take them out on your own, then come back to the conversation.

Ganking sucks, and I am guilty of ganking, but the really good PvPers found a way to seek out revenge, i.e stalking you from afar until you were alone, then taking you out with holds and dmg, or tping you into a fire escape where you couldn't really move, or into a tower, and maybe even calling on their friends to gank you back.

The build you had always mattered, you cant go in with the exact build you PvE with because dmg dealing powers that work great in mobs may not work so well to take out a single target. Part of the experience was going in, getting ganked, learning what powers worked great and what didn't, and enhancing your toon until you could at least take out targets on your own.

Once you had a pretty strong PVP build, then the game turned into something else. It was about being smart about what you could and couldn't do, what your weaknesses were, what to avoid, WHO to avoid...

Id say everyone who disliked PVP or had bad experiences should give it a shot in CoT. Even if you get ganked at first, keep trying, its loads of fun!

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

The picture you guys are painting makes PVP sound horrible lol.
I'm gonna try to pitch the good things about it. It wasn't always like you walk in and immediately die over and over. I remember many times just hanging out and talking about dumb things, with heroes and villains alike. Once in a while you get someone trying to kill you, and sometimes those around you help kill them, or sometimes you take them out on your own, then come back to the conversation.
Ganking sucks, and I am guilty of ganking, but the really good PvPers found a way to seek out revenge, i.e stalking you from afar until you were alone, then taking you out with holds and dmg, or tping you into a fire escape where you couldn't really move, or into a tower, and maybe even calling on their friends to gank you back.
The build you had always mattered, you cant go in with the exact build you PvE with because dmg dealing powers that work great in mobs may not work so well to take out a single target. Part of the experience was going in, getting ganked, learning what powers worked great and what didn't, and enhancing your toon until you could at least take out targets on your own.
Once you had a pretty strong PVP build, then the game turned into something else. It was about being smart about what you could and couldn't do, what your weaknesses were, what to avoid, WHO to avoid...
Id say everyone who disliked PVP or had bad experiences should give it a shot in CoT. Even if you get ganked at first, keep trying, its loads of fun!

That was another problem. There's a difference between "Have to change my Dual Pistol/Empathy build" to "I have to change to a completely different character"

Lin Chiao Feng
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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

It wasn't always like you walk in and immediately die over and over.

Oh, no, it wasn't like that. It was you walk in, wander around the eerily desolate landscape, and then, when you least expect it, BAM!

DIY slasher film, starring me as the smart, nice schmuck who always gets offed early.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I remember many times just hanging out and talking about dumb things, with heroes and villains alike. Once in a while you get someone trying to kill you, and sometimes those around you help kill them, or sometimes you take them out on your own, then come back to the conversation.

We had DJ Zero's for that.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

the really good PvPers found a way to seek out revenge, i.e stalking you from afar until you were alone, then taking you out with holds and dmg, or tping you into a fire escape where you couldn't really move, or into a tower, and maybe even calling on their friends to gank you back.

Yeah, I never managed to pull any of that off. Maybe next time I'll keep an enemies list or something.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Part of the experience was going in, getting ganked, learning what powers worked great and what didn't, and enhancing your toon until you could at least take out targets on your own.

Being a casual player, I wasn't willing to put in that kind of time.

Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Id say everyone who disliked PVP or had bad experiences should give it a shot in CoT. Even if you get ganked at first, keep trying, its loads of fun!

He says about a game that hasn't shipped. :P

Don't worry, we'll try it.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Lin Chiao Feng wrote:
Lin Chiao Feng wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
It wasn't always like you walk in and immediately die over and over.
Oh, no, it wasn't like that. It was you walk in, wander around the eerily desolate landscape, and then, when you least expect it, BAM!
DIY slasher film, starring me as the smart, nice schmuck who always gets offed early.
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I remember many times just hanging out and talking about dumb things, with heroes and villains alike. Once in a while you get someone trying to kill you, and sometimes those around you help kill them, or sometimes you take them out on your own, then come back to the conversation.
We had DJ Zero's for that.
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
the really good PvPers found a way to seek out revenge, i.e stalking you from afar until you were alone, then taking you out with holds and dmg, or tping you into a fire escape where you couldn't really move, or into a tower, and maybe even calling on their friends to gank you back.
Yeah, I never managed to pull any of that off. Maybe next time I'll keep an enemies list or something.
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Part of the experience was going in, getting ganked, learning what powers worked great and what didn't, and enhancing your toon until you could at least take out targets on your own.
Being a casual player, I wasn't willing to put in that kind of time.
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Id say everyone who disliked PVP or had bad experiences should give it a shot in CoT. Even if you get ganked at first, keep trying, its loads of fun!
He says about a game that hasn't shipped. :P
Don't worry, we'll try it.

That's all I wanted to hear...

:D

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

And as to what I mean by 'level playing field'. Skill and chance is the only thing I want determining the outcome. I don't want which Class, power set, gear or level of the characters involved weighing in at all.

To be able to remove those as factors that influence the outcome then you have to actually remove them completely, that is MWM would have to make it so that when engaging in PvP you get switched to a class and build that is identical for everyone.

There is no way to balance such differing classes and builds so that every PvP encounter has a 50-50 chance outside of player skill.

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Yup, thanks for joining late.

Yup, thanks for joining late. Already said no MMO can deliver on what I prefer.

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blacke4dawn wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:

There is no way to balance such differing classes and builds so that every PvP encounter has a 50-50 chance outside of player skill.

If you've done structured PvP in Guild Wars 2, then you will have come as close to a level playing field as possible in a classed game system. In GW2 structured PvP, every character is the same level and has the same level equipment, so it really does come down to player skill.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
There is no way to balance such differing classes and builds so that every PvP encounter has a 50-50 chance outside of player skill.
If you're done structured PvP in Guild Wars 2, then you will have come as close to a level playing field as possible in a classed game system. In GW2 structured PvP, every character is the same level and has the same level equipment, so it really does come down to player skill.

Perhaps it is the most balanced system currently in use but that is primarily due to the effective abolishment of "roles" among the classes that has enabled them to get that close to such a balance. Considering the strong role-based nature of the classes in CoT there will be no way MWM can reach that level of balance.

Consider also that their "character-power" progression is stat based and not power based and it's even easier to gain such balance. They may normalize the level of the equipment but unless they normalize the actual stats provided it still plays a significant role.

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Normalizing or equalizing

Normalizing or equalizing player's stats is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. A tank should not do the same damage as a defender type. People should be smart enough to find strengths in their own abilities and to find the weaknesses of their opponents and be able to exploit that. I've seen plenty of defenders pwning the best of tanks in CoH and it's because they know what powers work well against certain types and how to debuff to bring a foe down.

PVP should never be an equal playing field. The only thing that should be equal is the level stats like COH did. If you're in a level 25 zone, a level 50 will be brought down to 25 and a level 15 might be bumped up to 25 in terms of their level stats HP and End.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

blacke4dawn wrote:
There is no way to balance such differing classes and builds so that every PvP encounter has a 50-50 chance outside of player skill.
If you're done structured PvP in Guild Wars 2, then you will have come as close to a level playing field as possible in a classed game system. In GW2 structured PvP, every character is the same level and has the same level equipment, so it really does come down to player skill.

And this is one of the reasons I abhor PvP in a MMORPG. It destroys the very foundations of RP in order to satisfy a minority of hardcore players.

On the CoH forums I was one of those who half-seriously and half in jest advocated PvP zones that reduced every character to Level 1 and prohibited all powers except Brawl. PvP can be balanced, but the vast majority of PvP fans don't really want balanced. They want complete, brutal, total domination over another player. PvP fans who actually enjoy balance are few in number.

That's been my experience, anyway. YMMV.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
There is no way to balance such differing classes and builds so that every PvP encounter has a 50-50 chance outside of player skill.
If you're done structured PvP in Guild Wars 2, then you will have come as close to a level playing field as possible in a classed game system. In GW2 structured PvP, every character is the same level and has the same level equipment, so it really does come down to player skill.
And this is one of the reasons I abhor PvP in a MMORPG. It destroys the very foundations of RP in order to satisfy a minority of hardcore players.
On the CoH forums I was one of those who half-seriously and half in jest advocated PvP zones that reduced every character to Level 1 and prohibited all powers except Brawl. PvP can be balanced, but the vast majority of PvP fans don't really want balanced. They want complete, brutal, total domination over another player. PvP fans who actually enjoy balance are few in number.
That's been my experience, anyway. YMMV.

I don't really PvP all that often, and I generally don't like PvPers, but I don't agree with this as much. I will say that, in my experience, most PvPers don't want to crush the other guy, especially if it's to the point where the loser doesn't want to come back. Yeah, sure, in the end they certainly want to win, but what they're really looking for is a good fight/challenge. It's not challenging to completely destroy another player, mostly in that if they are doing the destroying, they aren't being challenged and therefore it isn't as fun. Be it tabletop, RPG, PvE, or even PvP, generally speaking, the most exhilarating content is when it comes down to the line, the next hit is where one shall stand and one shall fall. I enter as exhibit A:

I will say that sometimes, it is pretty awesome to one-shot something. I remember this one 3rd ed. campaign where we were coming up against the final boss, which was a deep dragon who, in human form, was wearing the armor of my previous character (a war priest whom died valiantly in service to Tempus). I, playing a barbarian, naturally charged in with a battle cry on my lips and claymore in my hands. I proceeded to triple-crit on the boss, and insta-killed him. I enjoy a challenge the vast majority of the time, but that. Felt. GLORIOUS.
And now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
blacke4dawn wrote:
There is no way to balance such differing classes and builds so that every PvP encounter has a 50-50 chance outside of player skill.
If you're done structured PvP in Guild Wars 2, then you will have come as close to a level playing field as possible in a classed game system. In GW2 structured PvP, every character is the same level and has the same level equipment, so it really does come down to player skill.
And this is one of the reasons I abhor PvP in a MMORPG. It destroys the very foundations of RP in order to satisfy a minority of hardcore players.
On the CoH forums I was one of those who half-seriously and half in jest advocated PvP zones that reduced every character to Level 1 and prohibited all powers except Brawl. PvP can be balanced, but the vast majority of PvP fans don't really want balanced. They want complete, brutal, total domination over another player. PvP fans who actually enjoy balance are few in number.
That's been my experience, anyway. YMMV.

You must've been ganked pretty bad..

I kid I kid! Hehehehe

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Greyhawk wrote:
Greyhawk wrote:

And this is one of the reasons I abhor PvP in a MMORPG. It destroys the very foundations of RP in order to satisfy a minority of hardcore players.

Players who would be just as happy playing Overwatch or something similar.

Greyhawk wrote:

On the CoH forums I was one of those who half-seriously and half in jest advocated PvP zones that reduced every character to Level 1 and prohibited all powers except Brawl.

We actually had that in Tabula Rasa. In that game, the classes were arranged in a "tree", with forks in the road at levels 5, 15, and 30. You wouldn't level further if you haven't chosen one of the forks. So some folks had the bright idea of rolling new characters, getting them to level 5, then holding boxing contests right there in the initial base. "Friday Night Fights" got so popular, the devs created a boxing ring instance. We had one last bout, devs in attendance, before the big final event and the servers closed.

Greyhawk wrote:

PvP can be balanced, but the vast majority of PvP fans don't really want balanced. They want complete, brutal, total domination over another player. PvP fans who actually enjoy balance are few in number.

Yep.

Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

I don't really PvP all that often, and I generally don't like PvPers, but I don't agree with this as much. I will say that, in my experience, most PvPers don't want to crush the other guy, especially if it's to the point where the loser doesn't want to come back. Yeah, sure, in the end they certainly want to win, but what they're really looking for is a good fight/challenge. It's not challenging to completely destroy another player, mostly in that if they are doing the destroying, they aren't being challenged and therefore it isn't as fun.

I'll concur with this. But Greyhawk isn't entirely wrong, and you hit on it, too. We do want to be able to dominate in PvP, because it does feel glorious. But ganking someone does not make you feel like you dominated anyone. Its a shallow victory not oft repeated once it is realized how shallow it is.

I can't tell you how many times I've stood by an opponent as he fights PvE in a PvP zone so he knows I'm there. Then I wait for him to heal up and then I try to kill him. He'll respawn and try the same on me. Then he'll respawn again and try it again. Then he'll respawn again and try to gank me when i'm at 50%. Lol. Yeah, the PvPers you want playing your game are the ones who take their competition seriously.

I mean, there is even an unwritten rule in PvP not to pot. A PvP'er who pots gets a bad reputation. Why? you ask, is there such a taboo against taking potions during PvP? Because then it becomes a competition of who can farm the most gold, not who is the better PvPer. That's how seriously PvPers take their view of fairness.

One other interesting thing to note, here. And I have actually found it to be generally true in every game I've played:
The villains/dark side are predominantly much fairer and more generous in PvP than the heroes/light side. Some psychiatrist could have a field day with that one.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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So, the argument is that

So, one argument I see proposed on this thread is that "PvPers" just want FOTM and "total dominance" so that they can "gank" and "crap-talk". And trying to prevent this not only messes up PvE but, presumably, following this logic, messes up PvPers fun too. Let's assume this is true and I'll throw in a couple more stereotypes that PvPers always complain that PvP is imbalanced and "borked" or whatever other word is currently popular to use, and that they just bring a bad element to the game in general.

If you want to call that a"straw man", no problem, that's the straw man that I'm addressing. And all of those things have been said here directly or indirectly.

So, then, from what MWM has said so far, their approach seems perfect. At least last I heard.

They're going to focus on the PvE experience and have a totally separate "phase" of the game that will barely be noticed and very easily totally ignored by the PvE players. One which uses the same powers "balanced" for PvE that everyone else uses. And there will be no special ingame reason, reward, or motivation to PvP at all as far as leveling or resources of any kind go.

So, the PvPers can build their FOTM and gank and crap-talk eachother while the PvEers play blissfully unaware in a game not affected by their PvP at all. And MMORPG PvPers always say PvP is borked no matter how much PvP balancing is done, so why bother anyway? Let them gank and crap-talk and complain like they'd do no matter what anyway.

And if someone who isn't a "PvPer" goes to PvP deliberately (which is the only way they will be able to) with nothing in the game forcing, inducing, or even directing them to, and then complain when they get ganked or crap-talked to, who's fault is that? The Devs because they allowed PvP to exist at all? That makes as much sense as suing McDonalds for burning yourself with hot coffee they served you that you would have complained was not hot if it weren't.

Even if those deplorable PvPers come PvE side and start being annoying, just /ignore them. And anyway, people would complain and criticize and Doomcry just as much about there being no PvP if there weren't PvP at all.

So, I dunno, I think MWM is being kind of genius. Let em pay and do their thing and just /ignore them.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Gonna have to disagree.

Gonna have to disagree. People don't want fair fights and they don't want a challenge. It's why PvPers will often change builds when they feel their build has become gimped with some nerf :p

It's why they'd laugh at the Dual Blade Scrapper who entered a PvP zone :p Because Dual Blades was not a good PvP set. :p

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It's kind of disappointing

It's kind of disappointing that most of you if not all of you portray PVPers as gankers, who like cheap kills, and whine all day about PVP. I myself was a PVPer and while there were some challenges with PVP there were a lot of good memories in PVP as much as there were in PVE.

So much hate, just because we like fighting other players...

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There's a difference between

There's a difference between challenging another player and going at it, and lurking with a team on a rooftop near an entry point, doing a TP foe, and slaughtering someone before they can do a thing. The latter was mostly my experience in pvp zones in CoH. Rarely was there someone looking for a challenge and a fair fight and the times there was, usually someone would happen by and then sneak attack.

(insert pithy comment here)

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

It's kind of disappointing that most of you if not all of you portray PVPers as gankers, who like cheap kills, and whine all day about PVP. I myself was a PVPer and while there were some challenges with PVP there were a lot of good memories in PVP as much as there were in PVE.
So much hate, just because we like fighting other players...

I think it's a psychological thing.

Just like one gets annoyed at all the Red lights they hit on their way somewhere, while not even remembering all the Green lights they sped through; Negative experiences simply carry more weight for most people than positive ones, and you've got to admit that there are plenty enough of those type of PvPers (even if it's still a small minority of the overall PvP crowd) that DO act in negative fashion to have given many people a negative opinion of PvP gaming.

It's also ridiculously hard to improve people's negative opinions once they've developed.

One bad apple spoils the bunch, as they say.

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Dark Ether wrote:
Dark Ether wrote:

There's a difference between challenging another player and going at it, and lurking with a team on a rooftop near an entry point, doing a TP foe, and slaughtering someone before they can do a thing. The latter was mostly my experience in pvp zones in CoH. Rarely was there someone looking for a challenge and a fair fight and the times there was, usually someone would happen by and then sneak attack.

That kind of stuff didn't happen 24/7. I would say 65% there were players that ganked, with a team or by themselves. And that is unfortunate, but that's how some people like to play. Yeah, its frustrating, but instead of leaving (not saying you specifically but people that logged off angry) and writing PVP off as a horrible part of any game, and saying that the people who PVP are basically scum, you should try to roll a build that works in PVP and come back and seek out revenge.

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OathboundOne wrote:
OathboundOne wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
It's kind of disappointing that most of you if not all of you portray PVPers as gankers, who like cheap kills, and whine all day about PVP. I myself was a PVPer and while there were some challenges with PVP there were a lot of good memories in PVP as much as there were in PVE.
So much hate, just because we like fighting other players...
I think it's a psychological thing.
Just like one gets annoyed at all the Red lights they hit on their way somewhere, while not even remembering all the Green lights they sped through; Negative experiences simply carry more weight for most people than positive ones, and you've got to admit that there are plenty enough of those type of PvPers (even if it's still a small minority of the overall PvP crowd) that DO act in negative fashion to have given many people a negative opinion of PvP gaming.
It's also ridiculously hard to improve people's negative opinions once they've developed.
One bad apple spoils the bunch, as they say.

I understand that completely, but it sounds like most of the people who had bad experiences only went in once, and probably with a PvE build that doesn't hold up in PVP. Putting in time in a PVP zone reveals to you what powers work and what powers don't, and encourages you to build up your strengths. It just doesn't sound like they gave it enough of a chance to experience this part of the game and adjust to it to be able to truly enjoy it.

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I pretty much only went to

I pretty much only went to pvp zones in CoH to get the exploration badges. In SWTOR I really disliked the forced pvp on specifically non-pvp servers

My view of things is that pvp and pve should be kept separate and that it shouldn't be necessary (or desireable for a badge/achievement/loot item) to engage in pvp unless one wants to. Those old farts among us will never have the reflexes to be on par with some of the younger players who are also more used to the kiting and bouncing all over strangeness that seems to be needed for such things.

The last pvp game I played a fair bit was probably Pong. ;)

(insert pithy comment here)

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Gonna have to disagree. People don't want fair fights and they don't want a challenge. It's why PvPers will often change builds when they feel their build has become gimped with some nerf :p
It's why they'd laugh at the Dual Blade Scrapper who entered a PvP zone :p Because Dual Blades was not a good PvP set. :p

Of course a PvPer will change builds when they feel their current builds are underpowered. That has nothing to do with challenge and everything to do with being better than the other guy. That's a no-brainer.
There's no room for RP'ing a gimped build in PvP! PvP is cutthroat.

Don't get me wrong, there will always be exceptions. I know plenty of people who would actually try to be that dual-blader in PvP just to see if they could make it viable. And to shove it down the throats of the Flavor of the Month subscribers if they do.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Just to be clear, I'm not a

Just to be clear, while I'm not a big PvPer (though I do like it for a change once in a while), I don't completely buy into all of the negative stereotypes, and I am arguing in support having PvP in CoT.

I was just trying to say that even if all of the negative things people are saying about PvP were true (I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle as usual), the way MWM and CoT are going to handle PvP in the game should allow it to exist without negatively affecting PvE.

I'd personally prefer there be PvP so a) I can go do it on a wild hare every now and then and b) because they write good build guides :P.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Gonna have to disagree. People don't want fair fights and they don't want a challenge. It's why PvPers will often change builds when they feel their build has become gimped with some nerf :p
It's why they'd laugh at the Dual Blade Scrapper who entered a PvP zone :p Because Dual Blades was not a good PvP set. :p
Of course a PvPer will change builds when they feel their current builds are underpowered. That has nothing to do with challenge and everything to do with being better than the other guy. That's a no-brainer.
There's no room for RP'ing a gimped build in PvP! PvP is cutthroat.
Don't get me wrong, there will always be exceptions. I know plenty of people who would actually try to be that dual-blader in PvP just to see if they could make it viable. And to shove it down the throats of the Flavor of the Month subscribers if they do.

Just goes back to the idea, it's not about fun, since before it would be "Whatever/Whatever is my most favorite build ever! Love my character!" It gets nerfed, "Whatever else/Whatever else is my most favorite build ever! Love my character!"

Or, what I saw often! "Who wants to PvP me!" "I will!" "Just let me check your build...Electric/Thermal?! No thanks!"

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I understand that completely, but it sounds like most of the people who had bad experiences only went in once, and probably with a PvE build that doesn't hold up in PVP. Putting in time in a PVP zone reveals to you what powers work and what powers don't, and encourages you to build up your strengths. It just doesn't sound like they gave it enough of a chance to experience this part of the game and adjust to it to be able to truly enjoy it.

Fair point, but by necessity, I'm a pretty casual player. I didn't have the time required to get good at PVP.

Same reason I very rarely participated in TFs.

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I understand that completely, but it sounds like most of the people who had bad experiences only went in once, and probably with a PvE build that doesn't hold up in PVP. Putting in time in a PVP zone reveals to you what powers work and what powers don't, and encourages you to build up your strengths. It just doesn't sound like they gave it enough of a chance to experience this part of the game and adjust to it to be able to truly enjoy it.

Like Rigel I can accept the point that you have to be willing to put the effort into PvP in order to get good at it.

The problem I think is that PvP in MMOs tend to have a relatively steep "learning curve" and unlike learning how to master PvE content the "opposition" in PvP has this unfortunate tendency to vocally belittle you after it shoves your face in the dirt over and over and over again. Sure I assume some people are willing to put up with that kind of abuse while playing a computer game. But the overwhelming majority just want to play MMOs causally and don't feel like joining a virtual Marine boot camp just to get good at PvP.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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Lothic wrote:
Lothic wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I understand that completely, but it sounds like most of the people who had bad experiences only went in once, and probably with a PvE build that doesn't hold up in PVP. Putting in time in a PVP zone reveals to you what powers work and what powers don't, and encourages you to build up your strengths. It just doesn't sound like they gave it enough of a chance to experience this part of the game and adjust to it to be able to truly enjoy it.
Like Rigel I can accept the point that you have to be willing to put the effort into PvP in order to get good at it.
The problem I think is that PvP in MMOs tend to have a relatively steep "learning curve" and unlike learning how to master PvE content the "opposition" in PvP has this unfortunate tendency to vocally belittle you after it shoves your face in the dirt over and over and over again. Sure I assume some people are willing to put up with that kind of abuse while playing a computer game. But the overwhelming majority just want to play MMOs causally and don't feel like joining a virtual Marine boot camp just to get good at PvP.

That makes sense. But at the same time I feel like the same people that just want to play casually or don't have time to invest in PVP are the ones putting down PVP and PVP players the most.

And I guess that makes me a masochist by your accurate description lol. :D

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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I understand that completely, but it sounds like most of the people who had bad experiences only went in once, and probably with a PvE build that doesn't hold up in PVP. Putting in time in a PVP zone reveals to you what powers work and what powers don't, and encourages you to build up your strengths. It just doesn't sound like they gave it enough of a chance to experience this part of the game and adjust to it to be able to truly enjoy it.
Like Rigel I can accept the point that you have to be willing to put the effort into PvP in order to get good at it.
The problem I think is that PvP in MMOs tend to have a relatively steep "learning curve" and unlike learning how to master PvE content the "opposition" in PvP has this unfortunate tendency to vocally belittle you after it shoves your face in the dirt over and over and over again. Sure I assume some people are willing to put up with that kind of abuse while playing a computer game. But the overwhelming majority just want to play MMOs causally and don't feel like joining a virtual Marine boot camp just to get good at PvP.
That makes sense. But at the same time I feel like the same people that just want to play casually or don't have time to invest in PVP are the ones putting down PVP and PVP players the most.
And I guess that makes me a masochist by your accurate description lol. :D

As someone who did research, I can say, I still never liked the idea of needing a second build to PvP with.

Getting one build in CoH (once the IO sets came out) was hard enough. To do it for two builds? PvP can be fun, but the game is built around PvE.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

PvP can be fun, but the game is built around PvE.

That just about sums up my feelings as well. Has MWM stated that the game will launch with PvP?

I would hope PvP is relegated to an update, so it can be done well and right without diverting the dev's attention from giving a good experience on launch day for PvE.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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TBH as much as I am rooting

TBH as much as I am rooting for PvP, I don't even think I will be rushing to get in there until I am completely comfortable with CoT. One of the main reasons I was crazy about PvP in CoH was because I had been playing the game for so many years, I wanted to try something different. So ill probably be among you PvE'ers for a while.

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

Brand X wrote:
PvP can be fun, but the game is built around PvE.
That just about sums up my feelings as well. Has MWM stated that the game will launch with PvP?
I would hope PvP is relegated to an update, so it can be done well and right without diverting the dev's attention from giving a good experience on launch day for PvE.

Systems and metrics we use take PvP into account. We can rather easily adjust power values between the two, if needed. And our mechanics affect pcs and npcs in the same manner - that is, we don't have powers that mess with the AI specifically.

If anything, having PvP at launch is good because it gives us data early, and with the systems and metrics taking both pve and pvp into account we avoid "tacking" PvP onto a pve design which never really works.


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Wolfgang8565 wrote:
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

That makes sense. But at the same time I feel like the same people that just want to play casually or don't have time to invest in PVP are the ones putting down PVP and PVP players the most.
And I guess that makes me a masochist by your accurate description lol. :D

I can't speak for all casual players but I don't condemn PVP or PVPers (at least, not collectively. individually is another matter :P) , I just don't personally care if PVP is in the game or not unless it's presence significantly improves attracting and retaining players.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect if the barrier to entry is lowered sufficiently for people like me, the hard core PVPers would find it insufficiently challenging. If PVP is super-hard-core, though, most people I know will happily play the PVE content and never think twice about it.

Besides, there could be "care bear" PVP like races and costume contests (which I find to be a perfectly valid form of creative PVP).

I also had a thought about the repeated comments on PVP balance.
What about leveraging the imbalance?
It seems like it might be fun to have a mode where a fully powered level-capped player could challenge a whole team (or more) of lower-levels. Sort of a PVP AV fight. In a somewhat controlled environment, of course. With all parties willing. Not the sort of ganking scenarios mentioned elsewhere.

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

What about leveraging the imbalance?
It seems like it might be fun to have a mode where a fully powered level-capped player could challenge a whole team (or more) of lower-levels. Sort of a PVP AV fight. In a somewhat controlled environment, of course. With all parties willing. Not the sort of ganking scenarios mentioned elsewhere.

I actually argued for the possibility of this on the old CoH forums.

I would have LOVED to try out my tricked out max-level solo builds against any team of lower level--at least once in a while. And teaming up to beat a high-level heavy would be fun once in a while too. Win, lose, or draw it'd be a hoot.

But... figuring out what a fair matchup is would be a bit of a nightmare. I have no idea how the Devs could even appdroach that.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I actually argued for the possibility of this on the old CoH forums.
I would have LOVED to try out my tricked out max-level solo builds against any team of lower level--at least once in a while. And teaming up to beat a high-level heavy would be fun once in a while too. Win, lose, or draw it'd be a hoot.
But... figuring out what a fair matchup is would be a bit of a nightmare. I have no idea how the Devs could even appdroach that.

Yeah, I thought about that even as I typed it but figured I'd throw it out there, anyway, to see if it sparked any further conversation.

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Rigel wrote:
Rigel wrote:

Empyrean wrote:
I actually argued for the possibility of this on the old CoH forums.
I would have LOVED to try out my tricked out max-level solo builds against any team of lower level--at least once in a while. And teaming up to beat a high-level heavy would be fun once in a while too. Win, lose, or draw it'd be a hoot.
But... figuring out what a fair matchup is would be a bit of a nightmare. I have no idea how the Devs could even appdroach that.
Yeah, I thought about that even as I typed it but figured I'd throw it out there, anyway, to see if it sparked any further conversation.

Maybe just don't even try to be fair? Let max-level characters put out a challenge: "any team of 10, lvl 25 or less" "any duo level 40 or less".

Or team put out challenge: "team of 10 lvl 25 Heroes looking for 'AV' to fight", or "lvl 40 villain duo looking to take down a Do-gooder!"

Then, if it doesn't work out--nobody's fault but mine. Let the players parse out what is fair. They will.

You know, personally, I think this would be the most fun type of PvP I've ever heard of. I mean it'd ALWAYS be crazy, and how could you possibly take it seriouly if you lost? It'd be a hoot & a half.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

You know, personally, I think this would be the most fun type of PvP I've ever heard of. I mean it'd ALWAYS be crazy, and how could you possibly take it seriouly if you lost? It'd be a hoot & a half.

Any PvP scenario is fine as long as it's 100% consensual. As long as everyone WANTS to be involved then there's nothing wrong with it even when the odds are comically unbalanced.

CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012

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How do item and IGC reward

How do item and IGC reward drops work in PvP? If I'm on an outdoor map on a PvP server or whatever, and the combat is mostly player versus player, am I getting less IGC and items than if I played PvE for swag and profit? Should that be the case?

I don't really do PvP so it probably doesn't affect me anyway, but I'm curious.

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I only have 1 request for PvP

I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.

QFT. This is a VERY important point for the Devs to consider as far as MMORPG PvP for fun goes.

On the other hand, outside of sports or games, this is preciously why “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.”― John Steinbeck

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Impulse King wrote:
Impulse King wrote:

I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.

I'd remind them if they're build is bad (some PvE had bad PvE builds, but they could get by or they teamed) or they're just not that good, they can and will lose. :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Impulse King wrote:
I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.
I'd remind them if they're build is bad (some PvE had bad PvE builds, but they could get by or they teamed) or they're just not that good, they can and will lose. :p

That's certainly better than the ubiquitous "Ur bad and u shud feelz bad n killz urself, u filthy casual tryhard" that I hear from PvPers.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Brand X wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.
I'd remind them if they're build is bad (some PvE had bad PvE builds, but they could get by or they teamed) or they're just not that good, they can and will lose. :p
That's certainly better than the ubiquitous "Ur bad and u shud feelz bad n killz urself, u filthy casual tryhard" that I hear from PvPers.

Well, people tend to ignore or just didn't like the fact, that not only were some power combos (whatever/whatever) were better than others at PvP, but also, with IOs introduced, certain IO builds would be better than others.

I remember just in PvE, I might see some people with sets that gave decent +ACC/+DMG but their set bonuses and such were terrible and didn't help. They however, just saw them as "Well, it's more than just SOs, so I must be awesome"

Also saw people who would 6 slot Stamina in the end, because they couldn't figure out how to slot, they hated running out of stamina, and they didn't like the idea of help or the idea of actually having to work at getting sets, but still would complain "running out of Stamina with 6 slotted Staminia" :p

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Impulse King wrote:
I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.
I'd remind them if they're build is bad (some PvE had bad PvE builds, but they could get by or they teamed) or they're just not that good, they can and will lose. :p
That's certainly better than the ubiquitous "Ur bad and u shud feelz bad n killz urself, u filthy casual tryhard" that I hear from PvPers.
Well, people tend to ignore or just didn't like the fact, that not only were some power combos (whatever/whatever) were better than others at PvP, but also, with IOs introduced, certain IO builds would be better than others.
I remember just in PvE, I might see some people with sets that gave decent +ACC/+DMG but their set bonuses and such were terrible and didn't help. They however, just saw them as "Well, it's more than just SOs, so I must be awesome"
Also saw people who would 6 slot Stamina in the end, because they couldn't figure out how to slot, they hated running out of stamina, and they didn't like the idea of help or the idea of actually having to work at getting sets, but still would complain "running out of Stamina with 6 slotted Staminia" :p

Just remember, people: Mids is your friend.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:

Just remember, people: Mids is your friend.

And people hated using it. Even when I would use it for them, they'd then just say "To much to work towards." Even when I'd give them a decent but much cheaper build. :/

Some people just want to complain I guess.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Just remember, people: Mids is your friend.
And people hated using it. Even when I would use it for them, they'd then just say "To much to work towards." Even when I'd give them a decent but much cheaper build. :/
Some people just want to complain I guess.

^This.

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Talking smack can be fun

Talking smack can be fun sometimes!

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I do not choose to be

I do not choose to be 'smacked', so I refuse to be a target of your 'Fun'.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Impulse King wrote:
I only have 1 request for PvP. Just to help folks manage their expectations remind them upon entering a PvP zone that in a "fair fight", they will lose half of the time. My theory is that PvE players will expect PvE results (i.e. wading through countless minions etc..). This leads to more frustration than needed. Just my 2 inf.
I'd remind them if they're build is bad (some PvE had bad PvE builds, but they could get by or they teamed) or they're just not that good, they can and will lose. :p

While I don't disagree, and folks who stick around will find this out, you won't get folks TO stick around if you unload all of that on them at the start. As I said, the intent is to manage expectations. And to do that well, it has to be in digestible chunks. It's not good for PvP in this game if casuals think they suck horribly when no one has shown them how PvP and PvE differ.

PvP builds, and IO's and such were all well and good, but I'm going to break a forum taboo and say you didn't need them if all you were doing was dueling some casual friends. (For myself, I never worried about such things. Sometimes I'd equip a proc that dropped but that's generally as far as I went.) They simply weren't required to enter PvP. And that's all I want to happen with this. Getting folks to try. They can learn or not after that. Heck let them figure stuff out on their own and they may teach YOU something someday. :)

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

I do not choose to be 'smacked', so I refuse to be a target of your 'Fun'.
Be Well!
Fireheart

Understood.

So as long as there is total choice, no harm done.

I probably 75% soloed, 20% teamed, and maybe 5% PvP'd in CoH. If I was in the mood for something different (and not feeling too thin-skinned at the time), I'd go PvP. But unless I was in that rare frame of mind and mood, PvP didn't exist to me at all.

I think that was part of the beauty of CoH. In PvP as in most other aspects of the game, you could pretty much play your way. They didn't say "no PvP", they said "PvP or totally ignore it, or anything in between, your choice".

I mean, many people here, myself included, consider that the relatively "play however you want" approach was a particular strength of CoH.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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I think that, in four years

I think that, in four years of playing CoH, I only ever actually PvPed once. It was on my Demons Mastermind (Fiendcaller, if anybody remembers him), and a scrapper decided to try me.

... and then proceeded to fly around in circles rather than attack my mastermind, leaving my demons to attack him from range without issue. I really don't know what was going through his head.

Suffice to say, though, calling PvP an infrequent experience for most CoH players is a hilarious understatement.

An infinite number of tries doesn't mean that any one of those tries will succeed. I could flip an infinite number of pennies an infinite number of times and, barring genuine randomness, they will never come up "Waffles".

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I feel like im the only

I feel like im the only hardcore PvPer here...no one to relate to...

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Were you hard core PvP in CoH
Wolfgang8565 wrote:

I feel like im the only hardcore PvPer here...no one to relate to...

Were you hard core PvP back in CoH too? If so, you must have felt somewhat in the minority there too, because you were almost rare as a unicorn :P.

I know they existed and even met a couple, but they couldn't have been more than a tiny percentage of the population.

And by this I mean truly hard core CoH PvPers, not people who just PvP'd occasionally.

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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Irony.

Irony.

It's almost artistic. Bravo Notears, Bravo!

All the talk about not enjoying in PVP in this thread by a lot of people (who will reveal themselves below) who really enjoy fighting, no... "debating," on the forums. Hell the prompt was literally FIGHT! or...here's the shocker PVP!

That's just to prove my next point. It's all about the arena. It's all about the rules. The majority of you may have disliked PVP in COX but here on the forums it's not a problem. In a game like COT I don't believe you are ever going to have a fair PVP encounter when it's toe-to-toe, mano e mano. And that is all about the rock-paper-scissors nature of the classes and powersets. Which are particularly pronounced in COX and will likely be the same in COT. However, when you start scaling things up that's when the fights get more balanced. I don't even think it would happen at the team level, I think you'd need multiple teams against multiple other teams. There's a damn good reason that games like Overwatch and LOL have become so popular. It's because of that team vs team level of balance.

Here's my proposal for the COT arena PVP where powers don't matter. Or only common powers...IE travel powers have effects. The rules don't dictate making kills but scoring points. This sort of non-combat PVP takes a lot more work but generally I think its more enjoyable. It's less about you vs them or your build or luck it's about the game. Imagine something like rocket league but with super heroes. Or think of some party games and insert heroes. You can still have the standard PVP but there should also be fun non-PVE alternatives.

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Lineage II destroyed any hope

Lineage II destroyed any hope of ever convincing me to enjoy PvP in a MMORPG.

In Lineage II PvP encounters were a daily event. I even taught a dozen or so people in my clan the basics of survivability and destruction.

It just became such a boring way to play. People go on and on about "skill" like it really means something. But it's just a numbers game, whoever is better able to stack the numbers wins the encounter.

Forum PvP, on the other hand. Now that's challenging!

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I'm not exactly the biggest

I'm not exactly the biggest PVP'er, but I've engaged in PVP in a number of different games, and I see the fun in it. I only dabbled in it in CoH however, and even then pretty much only in Recluse's Victory. The other PVP zones I visited only to get badges (though I remember farming a temp power in one of the zones a few times). My main issue with CoH PvP was that it was tacked on after the fact - and it showed. The devs are supposedly taking PVP into account as they are designing this game, so hopefully it will be a better experience here. I look forward to trying it out.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

Wolfgang8565 wrote:
I feel like im the only hardcore PvPer here...no one to relate to...
Were you hard core PvP back in CoH too? If so, you must have felt somewhat in the minority there too, because you were almost rare as a unicorn :P.
I know they existed and even met a couple, but they couldn't have been more than a tiny percentage of the population.
And by this I mean truly hard core CoH PvPers, not people who just PvP'd occasionally.

Yeah I guess compared to everyone on the server we were a small minority. I know every time I logged into KR there were always a few people which was always enough to have fun with but when it really got packed it truly became an awesome experience.

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