I ask this due to the nature of aesthetic decoupling: if there is no spoon, so to speak, only an animation skin you put over the mechanism and effect of the power, what will be the names of specific powers? Most powers in the (mostly) comparable superhero games are given an evocative name indicative of their nature and the power set overall, like Radiation: Blaster set in CoX gave you Neutrino Bolt, X-ray Beam and Proton Volley (while DCUO gave some powers names like Einstein Ray, which doesn't have much logical meaning but sounds, y'know, sciencey).
If you can change the skin/animation and FX colours of the power to widely different things with nothing to do with neutrinos, protons or indeed radiation, then what will the individual powers be called?
(I have a couple of follow-up proposals, but they somewhat hinge on this issue).
"TRUST ME."
You raise an interesting point about how "traditional" power names often imply how those powers would/should look. For instance if you had something called "lightning bolt" you'd probably expect that to look like what you might see in a thunderstorm but technically if you had a power generically called "energy blast" then that could include a bunch of different things ranging from a bolt of lightning to a laser beam.
To me I'd be more concerned that the whole "aesthetic decoupling" thing worked well long before I'd worry too much about exactly what the game "called" my powers. Sure I understand that the Devs will have to call the powers something and it would probably be best if they tried to be as generic as possible with that. But in the long run I'd rather have a power that might (unintuitively) be called "lightning bolt" that could look like almost any kind of "energy beam" I wanted than worry too much that my version of the power might not look anything like a lightning bolt at all.
There's only so many generically descriptive words in the language and there's going to be a lot of powers in the game. I'd rather the Devs use at least some specific words (even if they imply mental images that could be radically different to how they appear in the game due to aesthetic decoupling) than to have the whole game devolve into hyper-vague words like power1, power2 and so on.
P.S. I just had the idea that maybe the game could internally label the powers as necessary but maybe the GUIs could allow players to provide "customized" names that could be anything the player wanted for a character. So if you had a character named Captain Amazing you could rename one of his powers "Amazing Blast". I figure if aesthetic decoupling is going to let our powers LOOK like how we want there's really no reason why we shouldn't be able to NAME them what we want as well.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Power names have gone over multiple revisions in order to be evocative to fit within the set, impart a sense of what it does, and yet remain as open to interpretation with the wide range of aesthetics available to the theme of each set. Sometimes in an effort to avoid a label being too generic, we've had to use terms which could be interpreted as restrictive (read does encompass) every possible aesthetic.
This was suggested a long time ago (multiple times in fact) and unfortunately this will not be a possibility. The reasons given were multiple from having to maintain and update an ever growing filter library, possible additional customer support load on reported naming, to even the possibility of breakdown in discussions between players, dev's, and players with dev's. Over time with multiple people renaming powers, there could be an issue of players identifying powers properly including issues of renaming one power the name from a power in another set. In the end, for ease, it was decided it was best that power set names and power names would remain distinctive.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Aw, well that's one of my intended proposals gone - I was going to ask about the possibilty of customizing the name of your toons' power-build, in order to be distinctive and create power sets based around a very specific or rare superpower, unlikely to be implemented any other way (for example, making a set of seemingly very disparate power animations linked by the theme of these: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Strong_Force_Manipulation#Applications, and naming the set Strong Force Manipulation/Mastery, or a customized Vector Power set using powers like these: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Vector_Manipulation#Applications). That was assuming you didn't already plan to include the very obscure stuff - there are 7108 pages on this wiki, after all: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Powers_by_type
"TRUST ME."
Maybe there could be a modular naming convention. For instance, if you have the ranged offense power set, one of your attacks could be a "Bolt" But since you have an "Electric" theme, the power automatically becomes "Lightning Bolt". If you had a fire theme, it would be "Fire Bolt". If you had a plant theme, it would be "Bolt of Thorns", if you had a radiation theme, it would be "Proton Bolt". And you can do the same with "Rays" "Blasts" "Fields" "Hammers" "Sprays", etc., etc. So nothing is actually named by the player, but the powers are at least applicable to the character.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Yeah I could see that being able to rename powers with unique names that other players could potentially see might prove to be problematic. But if you restricted the "power renames" to only be local/client based then most of the problems you cited would disappear.
To be clear this means that for example you could have a power with a hardwired system name "ABC" and the game would refer to that power as "ABC" whenever there was a time the game had to report some kind of information between players. But let's say I wanted to locally rename one of my own powers as something else as far as my own client/GUI goes. In effect this would be a secondary local "text replacement" label that only I would see and would not affect any other player.
With this system of "local renaming" you could actually afford to make most of your system names for the powers very generic (Power134, EnergyBlast01, etc.) and then let the players bother coming up with their own "descriptive" names that better matched their own aesthetic decoupling choices.
This seems like it could be a workable compromise as well. Bascially every power could have a "base/default" name and a "descriptive adjective" part based on which animation sets you use. As you say this would at least "psudeo-customize" your power names based on the aesthetic decoupling options you choose.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That's an idea. To add to that, though, I would hope that a few alternatives (well, a LOT of alternatives) to the regular power name types would be added, so that rather than Lightning you could instead choose Thunder, Storm, Electricity, Electro, Voltage, etc. Instead of Fire you could choose Flame, Heat, Thermo, Incendiary, Combustion, etc.
And instead of certain power suffixes (INCLUDING those two, Lightning and Fire) you could indeed choose Vector, Frequency, Quantum, Graviton, Pulse, Strong Force, Weak Force, Tachyon, and other terms etc. Using that Superpower Wiki as a resource (because it is awesome) I sincerely hope that as many terms as possible are released as options for your powers' names. And yes, I'd sure as hell be willing to pay for a DLC if it meant I could have "Numerical Probability" and "Renaissance Aptitude" as the names of my first and second sets (http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Accelerated_Probability - http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Hypercompetence) and then set each power accordingly - and that might be tricky for the first one, but probably a lot of Buffs, stackable ones ideally, animated as /thinking, maybe? I hope something like that is possible.
"TRUST ME."
If you're going to go the modular direction, then the "noun" can be anything, and maybe not always the same for different power slots in different sets even. One blaster set might have a "bolt" in the first power slot while another might have something else there For example, just based on how they operate, "bolt" might be synonymous with "ranged, single-target, accuracy-dependent, attack that does modest hit point damage for modest endo cost and has fairly short recharge time".
Then the "adjective" might, I think, be named after the official name of the set you're in. So not Fire bolt, but Burning Bolt, or Burning Blast, if it's not a "bolt" per se, etc. That is, the set's themselves might have names like "Burning Ranged Attacks" and that the powers within them might be named "Burning Blast", "Burning Wave", "Burning Bolt" etc.
R.S.O. of Phoenix Rising
I get what you mean, Radiac. My point here is, and my one wish/request, would be for us to have the option of substituting 'Burning' in your example above for all kinds of different terms that we could choose from a list, like Atomic, Subatomic, Molecular, Nanite, Density, Quantum, Entropic, Vector, Gamma, Carcinogenic, Viral, you name it, in order to represent the huge number of fictional superpower and ability concepts. That's for the overall Power-set name, as it appears on your toons' Info tab.
Would you also want your ice-themed Blaster to be a Cryokinetic, a Glaciokinetic, a Winter Mage, a Thermorefractionist, or a Professor (carrying an ice-beam gun)? Or simple an Ice Blaster? I'd like it if we had the option to specify, and I'd buy an Alternative Power-name if it meant I could have the one I really wanted, to suit the character concept.
"TRUST ME."
Perhaps this is the kind of thing that should be handled via a future player side mod.
-----------------------------------------
I never set anything on fire accidentally!
The Titan Legacy - Defender of the Inner Flame
If the Devs put the "hooks" in to allow client-side modding for power names I'd probably be good with it. We know all sorts of things were moddable in CoH so I suppose this could be as well.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
What would be the point though, if only you can see the changes and all other players see is the default text?
"TRUST ME."
What if you really hated whatever default names the Devs had decided for YOUR powers? There were hundreds of things the CoH client-side mods allowed you to tweek; for instance lots of people hated the sound effects of specific powers that they were able to mod off. Things like that are pretty much the whole reason why "mods" for any game exist the first place. *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
That's why I think giving many multiple choices would be the best way to proceed (as in, using wikis like that one I linked to with its 7108 pages as a resource). I've no idea how the devs for this game will feel about mods, and I don't think relying on modding to get the most out of the game is the best way to attract new players.
"TRUST ME."
You must not be aware of this but client-side modding was a fairly big part of CoH. Many map and sound mods were specifically sanctioned and supported by the Devs of CoH. Costume mods were also fairly well known and used. A number of player created "bug fixes" also relied on the extensive modding system provided by CoH.
I suspose it's always possible that the Devs of CoT will create their new game without all the "hooks" for modding that existed in CoH. But if that's the case it'll be a huge step backwards in the overall capability of the game.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
We hope to support a wide range of player mods, even if they are only client-side. If power names falls into that category (too soon to tell what will and will not be supported for client-side modding), I see no issues with it. As to the point of supporting client-side only mod - some of the player-mods in the old game weren't 'officialy' supported. They were changes players made to certain files in which the server didn't have to authenticate, yet still allowed for the function. This let players change things like costume pieces, weapon models, and sound effects to customize their personal experience. As long as such changes do not affect the game play nor impact the wider player base's experience negatively, I view such changes as 'no harm, no foul.
Supporting player mods means that no only are such changes allowed, but also could be sanctioned by having a place on the forums for players to post links to download their mods to share them. Some games have provided dev-made tool kits for players. Such support provides yet another avenue of player-to-player interactions, where players can create and share mods, discuss ways to improve mods or may new ones, without having to resort to off-site meetings (though there's nothing wrong with that either) or feeling as though some change done by the devs will invalid their modifications. This happened in the old game from time to time which forced players to re-work their client-side changes from scratch.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Thanks for expanding on this topic and how it'll relate to CoT.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Then it's a personal preference, but if a mod which is purely cosmetic and aesthetic, like the name of your powerset, is client-based only and not visible to other players, I see no point in making it. The whole purpose of it would be show off your concept and stand out among other players... for me, anyway.
"TRUST ME."
That's perfectly fine but your "purpose" for wanting something like this could easily be different than someone else's. *shrugs*
All I can tell you is that there were a fairly large array of mods that existed in CoH and basically all of them did things that were more or less "cosmetic" and "not visible to other players". In fact as a MMO they were only allowed precisely because they could not affect anyone else.
I don't have a specific problem with your "multiple choice" idea other than the Devs would have to come up with a bunch of options (or rely on a third party wiki) and even after they came up with a bunch there would always be something they didn't include that some player out there would want. Letting players use whatever names they wanted (as a local client text replacement) would likely be the most simple compromise we would get for this.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Well I hope that both kinds of players are accounted: ones who don't mind a customization being invisible to anyone else, and ones, like me, who would prefer it was visible. And if the devs wanted to make a DLC or sub revenue stream out of providing for the second kind of player, I think that'd be a fair exchange and I'd be happy to contribute towards it.
There's lots of aspects of player customization content that could be easily accounted for by leaving it out of the main game and letting people mod it if they want... and if they don't mind nobody else seeing it. That would save time, but largely defeat the purpose of customization. What I suggested, if it were viable, wouldn't prevent modders doing anything for themselves but would go some way to making powerset choicees that were both sandbox and as wide and varied and disparate as superpowers in general... and you could actually see it when other people used them. The fact that it likely could never account for every conceivable superpower, *only* most of them, is hardly a case for not trying to achieve it.
"TRUST ME."
Okay, lets be honest here. When would you ever see another's name for his or her attack?
The only time I can think of is when it shows up in your combat log. And then I would rather see "hit by Snoopy's Bolt Attack for 32 damage" than "Hit by Snoopy's I've Got You Now Red Baron attack for 32 damage."
Some sort of descriptor would help me to know what the theme of the player's power is, so if we can have a descriptor it would really help. "Hit by Snoopy's Kinetic Bolt" attack would mean to me that it was an attack that did a single dose of physical damage. Likewise "Fire Bolt", and "Burning Bolt" would mean an attack that did a single dose of Elemental(is this a thing?) aspect damage or applied a damage over time, respectively. Both would have a flame visual style, but would be different mechanically.
When I read my combat log I want to be able to parse it quickly and find what I am looking for. Colorful names would just get in my way and would serve only to confuse.
Besides, imagine a player calling his single-dose fire attack a burning attack even though it did not apply a burning effect. Too many ways this could be abused.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
You're misssing my point: like I said, I was referring to the name of the powerset overrall, as it appears on your character when they are highlighted on a league/supergroup roster or if their info tab is brought up to send a tell or any other number of reasons. Instead of 'Ice Blaster' it would say 'Cryokinetic' etc, plus the different types of rare powers I went through above which could be represented. I did not say I wanted an original name for each individual attack, only a choice of distinctive ones for the entire set - ie replace the ICE in Ice Blaster/Controller with ATOMIC or GAMMA or whatever - thus allowing for differenct powr concepts, which can then match the animations.
The last example you gave, however, sounds like what is going to happen by design, depending on how the devs finally phrase each attack: aesthetic decoupling means that a 'Burning' attack is listed as just that, regardless of the exact animation. So, one Burning attack involves fire, while the next may involve corrosive gas, and the next a swarm of flying piranhas. My original question asked how they planned to address that, ie that the names of the attacks may end up with no relation to the animations. My proposal was a way to deal with that.
"TRUST ME."
I accept your notion that you'd be cool with a system that would A) allow modders to do their thing with their client-only mods AND B) provide some extra scheme that would allow players to share their name customizations with other players. If the game could do both of those things I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that.
Unfortunately [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/109337#comment-109337]Tannim222 has already told us[/url] earlier in this thread that the "customized powers names that other players can see" concept has already been sidelined. At least you can take some consolation in knowing that the Devs apparently did entertain the idea before they decided against it.
I realize that client-side power name substitutions via modding wouldn't quite accomplish what you'd want from all this but at least you'd be able to see the names you'd want to see on your own screens and like Huckleberry said most OTHER people rarely see (care?) what other people's powers/powersets are called regardless. I would respectfully make the case that most of the "impact" of having customized power names would be in the satisfaction of seeing your own power trays labeled the way you want them to be. Frankly (at least for me) I almost couldn't care less if OTHER people could see my customized names or not.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yep I definitely missed your point. Looking at your original post, I never would have gotten it the way you just described it.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Hmm, I'm kinda torn on this.
Sure it would be cool to "rename" ones sets so that they have a more appropriate name in regards to the chosen aesthetics, though considering that we will be able to decide on the level of individual powers it may become hard to name the whole set.
On the other hand identifying which actual set (mechanically speaking) would become harder since the aesthetics will overlap to differing degrees between sets, unless the "original" name is also present in some form. From my experience most people looks at this because they want to know the actual set, not the concept.
Because I didn't describe the idea until Reply #4. My original post asks what the devs plan to do and says I have a couple of ideas.
"TRUST ME."
Yeah, if we chose a set made of very different powers. But my idea would've meant we could link them by some theme and call them a complete set that makes sense, for example having melee attacks with green mist coming off you/the target and calling it TOXIC/CHEMICAL MELEE, or taking very different animations which would have the same conceptual origin, for example taking one of each basic Blaster Power and calling it POWER REPLICATION, taking one of each melee power and calling it ABILITY LEARNING or INSTANT LEARNING (like th abilities that Taskmaster has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taskmaster). You could also have taken paradoxical powers like heat-themed and cold-themed and called it THERMOKINESIS or TEMPERATURE CONTROL, or both telepathic control powers and telekinetic blaster/melee ones. You could have taken wide-ranging abilties that stem from a single power, like the applications here (http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Vector_Manipulation#Applications) and here (http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Physics_Manipulation#Applications), styled one or more of the animations to represent the very different abilties that the power would give you, and then give the power set an appropriate umbrella term for a name, the way you'd describe Superman or Dr Manhattans' 'power set' if you had to give it a single name. That's what I hoped could be done with this, but it's all moot if it's off the table...
Yes, but maybe the second, purely functional word in the powerset name would be the operative one for that, while the first word would be purely aesthetic. So, the ICE would be aesthetic, while SCRAPPER or BRUISER or TANK would be the functional word people would be looking for. Or maybe the name would be subtitled by its role (like FIRE (DPS) or ICE (TANK)). Giving us wide choices for the first, purely aesthetic word would seem like the logical move, given we are getting 'aesthetic decouplement' as described. Otherwise, I can imagine lots of noobs or casual players asking why your 'FIRE BLASTER' throws weaponized boomerangs or snowballs instead of fire.
But remember we don't yet know exactly how the devs will handle all of this.
"TRUST ME."
You present some good points there Gluke, though to throw another potential wrench in there (and because it only "hit" my now).
For this to work "properly" then this naming has to be done unilaterally over all sets (primary, secondary and tertiary) since I do not know of any super that have that kind of "division" among their powers that could be represented by us choosing our primary and secondary sets. Even if there are such supers then they are, afaik, the exceptions and not the rule. Also, if a players wants to draw such a "line" maybe they want to draw it based on certain mechanics, like offensive and defensive, instead of between primary and secondary sets.
I don't see why. There are examples of that, although their rarity or otherwise wouldn't have been a factor here, since anyone would have any option over their toon. If somebody wanted a toon with a 'Physics Mastery/Manipulation' umbrella, like Dr Manhattan, they could have taken it as a Primary just fine, and then taken a Secondary and Tertiary of some other kind since their character would presumably have OTHER talents besides those big superpowers, right? Dr Manhattan is a genius, for example. ;)
They might equally have, as you say, spread their main ability over two or more of their three powersets, or they might have ignored the distinction of Primary, Secondary and Tertiary altogether, and allocated powerslots to their characters' abilities independent of that, either for the sake of their concept and theme or purely for tactical reasons (ie max DPS output, max Heal or whatever). So, your toon based on Dr Doom, say, might have DPS powers with robotic/cybernetic animations from both his Prime and Secondary powersets, then buff-powers with nano-tech animations from Primary and Tertiary, then a self-heal with a self-injection animation from Secondary, and lastly mid-range AOE attacks with lightning and energy bolts from Tertiary, and maybe an immobilize from Tertiary with a cage animation. The animations set to powers would bear no relation to which of the three powersets they came from, instead the distinctions in the characters' abilities - in this case, cybernetic attachments, swarms of nano-bots and energy bolts - would be ascribed to the powers ONLY by tactical thinking and/or by aesthetic theme. So, the three powersets, Primary, Secondary and Tertiary, can be used as a guide and for convenience, or could be ignored or worked-around, if they player chose.
This, to me, would be true sandbox potential of aesthetic decoupling.
That wouldn't have been a problem, as far as I saw it. You could have one single AESTHETIC power and divide the applications of it over the Primary, Secondary and Tertiary sets, or you could have three different aesthetic powers, one for each of the powersets. Or you could mix and match, as in the Doom-expy example above. Plus when you then factor in the Movement powers (depending on how that works) you'd effectively get FOUR different powersets to play around with.
From what I understand of aesthetic decoupling as the devs have explained, this is all still possible - only thing we can't do is rename each powerset appropriately to match their animations, in a way that's visible to other players... I hope at least that however they decide to name or classify powersets, we won't be have conflicting names versus animations.
"TRUST ME."
This is an interesting discussion, but I don't understand why/how anyone would ever see a list of a character's powers, except the Player. In CoH, did we ever know what powersets a character had, unless they explicitly posted it, somewhere? Yeah, we got a generic AT icon, a guess could be made from some character-names, and an experienced player could watch the character in action and get a good read from that. Otherwise? I don't recall any place where Primary/Secondary could be read.
Is there another game where this information is listed somewhere? I've played a few, but can't recall any listings except for class/archetype.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yes - if you right-clicked on another player, selected "info", and hit the "powers" tab you could see exactly what powers they had.
https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/File:UI_Personal_Info_Powers.jpg
Ironically (or maybe the right word is sadly) the only time I think I ever bothered to look up another player's powers like this in CoH was when I was teaming with a group and started to realize that a particular player was playing "weirdly" and/or "ineffectually" and I wanted to see if they had chosen a workable mix of powers for their build.
That said it almost seems like the average player shouldn't even really be able to directly "see" another player's power list like that unless they have some kind of mental/telepathy power that would "explain" why they would be able to get a detailed summary list of somebody else's powers in the first place. Think of it this way: If you just looked at a stranger in real life do you automatically know (just by looking at them) what skills they are good at? *shrugs*
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
In most MMOs in my experience, the information was never hidden, it was visible on the players tab and/or on a league or group roster - but again (the sixth time?) I didn't say a list of every power, I said the name of the Power-set overall, like Ice - Blaster or Fire - Defender. I thought it would be helpful in THIS case owing to practically unique potential of aesthetic decoupling, which means that you might never be able to to tell another players' powerset, since they could all be so different as to be unrecognizable. The potential also to use the decoupling to make custom builds of established but rare and wacky or specialized powers like Vector Mastery etc would save on telling people what your odd powerset is if they could just see what it is by clicking on your tab. You would likely never NEED to do that in City of Heroes, DCUO or CO since you soon come to know what the various powers look like, but in CoT, apparently, any power could look like anything...
Lastly, again, it was a way around the issue of offical dfault power names being at odds with their customized animations, ie your Fire or Lightning Blaster set not having any fire or lightning in them.
I don't know of any other MMOs which have used 'aesthetic decoupling' or the exact equivalent, so I wonder if it would be mildly disorienting for new and casual players to enter the open world and truly have no idea what powers are being used all around them. Would it feel counter-intuitive or just weird for experienced gamers to group on missions and have none of the toons look, sound or play like the traditional archetypes they are? We might see some odd reactions and gaming behaviour patterns arise resulting from this. I'd also bet that this may not come up before launch, but after people start playing, there will be a lot of people asking for it: a way to immediately tell what another players' power set is.
"TRUST ME."
If this is the case, then I believe this capability is already there. As you and others have so far pointed out, the ability to 'inspect' a character sheet will tell you exactly what powers they have. In fact, as you mentioned, because of Aesthetic decoupling, no two people's powers will look the same, so we may not be able to tell one from another until we are more experienced seeing them all in action to be able to determine the telling quirks of each. So, if we want to be able to inspect each other, then I would think we want the terminology to be as common and concise as possible
For example: knowing someone is a Kinetic Burning Hunter means that we know they will have a ranged offense classification with the Kinetic characteristics and a manipulation specification with burning characteristics. Beyond that, everything is aesthetic, so why bother describing it?
Some in this thread have wanted to use descriptive terms for immersion purposes. I love some of the names for powersets and powers that have been put forth. We have some amazingly creative people here. I would really like it, but other than in your personal narrative, it would probably only exist on your own client side for all the reasons set forth.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
Ah, I do remember that, now. And, as has been said, I only ever looked at that if it seemed the character was operating 'ineffectively'. Or, conversely, if they seemed to be operating Very effectively, then I might look to see if there was something I could learn from their choices.
It seems to me that, once Mids Hero Builder came into play, most of that build-tweaking moved to the forums and I never bothered to look at others' powers again. By that point, I could, pretty much, identify powers just from the animations, regardless of power-customization.
That said, with all of the customization options being discussed for CoT, it might well be impossible to identify powers just from the animations and effects. However, I really don't see a purpose in listing character powers anywhere that other players, villains, rivals, and enemies could see it. Perhaps a 'self description' line in a Bio page? Where one might say "Cryokinetic Ranger", but only if one wanted to reveal that information? Because, personally, I Don't want to broadcast my powers to anyone who can click me.
Be Well!
Fireheart
I hear your points, and I may have been worried without cause, but theoretical problems of immersion remain which my idea would have ironed out, if it worked. For instance:
It would depend on the other choices besides 'Burning' (if Burning is the animation and Kinetic is the function). The only problem is whether the name of the set, whether it's functional, like Kinetic, or aesthetic, like Burning, MATCHES the animations you've applied, and the idea behind them. If they clashed or contradicted each other, I can tell you this would be one of the most common requests from launchday onwards: a way to make the name of the set better suit the animations.
For example, let's say I had an animation of floating green piranhas swarming at a target and feeding on it, for DPS effect. What power set would that fit into?
Let's say my next power after that had an animation of a grey stormcloud appearing and striking a target with lightning. Then my next power animation after that turned my toon into a golden mecha. And the next one after that let me throw purple goo at a team-mate with splatter effect (for healing). What NAME would you give that power set, or rather which powerset would you choose in order to apply those animations?
If the name and ALL the animations did not clash, there is no problem.
But at this stage, we don't know exactly how the devs will handle this, so we just got to wait and see.
"TRUST ME."
I think you are planning on having a far greater power creation system than MWM is planning on putting into the game.
Here is the table of classification and specification combinations that will be in the game:
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/updated-classification-and-specification-chart
So it won't play much different than CoX did. if you are a Bulwark, for example, you get to pick a Defense power set for your classification (primary) and a melee powerset for your specification (secondary).
It is all described pretty well in the two links provided in this thread:
http://cityoftitans.com/forum/what-powers-are-going-be-please-sticky
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I think you're not getting my point, I know about the power classifications - the piranhas and gold mecha FX I described would be the ANIMATIONS, regardless of function. As has been said, they would be aesthetically detached entirely, if all goes to plan, and you would eventually have toons with flying swords coming out of their eyes (I forget where I first read that, but that's a developers' quote that's been paraphrased a few times). The plan, as I understand it, is to impart as much creativity into the VISUAL power customization as possible.
My point is that that is an awesome plan, but for that to work, some flexibility (actually, a lot of flexibility) would be required with the naming conventions of the different powersets, to avoid contradictions. That seems like a perfectly logical step. It would be counterintuitively frustrating that we got to customize and personalize every aspect of a toon EXCEPT how their power is described in their info/profile/league roster entry/etc. In CoH we even got to name the individual minions of the Mastermind class (which was awesome). So this makes sense to me.
But seems we not going to get something that specific (ie to rename your toon a 'Pyrokinetic' etc) - so once again, I hope at least we get some kind of other non-restrictive naming convention that doesn't clash with the animations. Having no power name at all would be better than having Cap Boomerang classed as simply a Fire Blaster, or Spider-Man as an Ice Controller, if you see what I mean (even GADGET seems the wrong word for both those examples, when it would be technically accurate, given how specific their abilties are).
"TRUST ME."
I think now you're not getting my point. You state that flexibility in naming convention would be needed in order for the flexibility in visual styles to work. My point is that flexibility in naming convention is exactly what would make flexibility in powersets work less well.
In my opinion, we need a good standard naming convention that describes the mechanics, for the very reason that the visuals will be unconventional.
But I also think we can turn this into a win-win rather than just talking past each other.
You state that you would want to customize the name of your powerset in your character profile and league roster. Piece of cake. Just give us a field that we can customize for everyone to see, just like CoX did with our character biographies. But having this field should not replace the standard description either.
Knowing that a Defender is an Empath rather than a Trick Arrow makes all the difference when forming a party. I don't want to have to figure out what the player means by their attempt at creative writing to describe their powerset.
[hr]I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
I get you, yes. That would work... as long as the name of the powerset is still strictly functional and not aesthetic, so the Blaster set you choose during character creation does not actually have ICE or FIRE in the title, only DPS or whatever. And if you also got some official tab slot in the Bio profile and/or elsewhere where you could indeed type your power/ability creatively, that would be a perfect solution, IMO.
"TRUST ME."
I guess I'd have to answer your hypothetical 'random' animation situation by calling it 'Demon Summoning' with a rather broad interpretation of 'demons'. However, the point I would like to make is that there is not intrinsic reason why it would have to be named or categorized in the first place.
One could identify a particular powerset as Ranged-Burning and possibly add an Elemental descriptor, like Cold or Physical. Aesthetic decoupling would allow whatever animations to be laid over that, whether it's fireballs, or summoning a layer of frost, or a cloud of bees.
The thing is, we're speculating in a near vacuum, here, with only the smallest bits of information. That may be because the Devs don't quite know how it's going to work, or they may have a plan for a framework, but figure they'll have to tweak it before it's ready for the rest of us.
It's certainly a good opportunity to say, "I'd like to be able to name my Kamehameha." We could then conclude that such names would only be visible locally, while the server would have generic names for powers, based on their key qualities. Because sending custom names to the server, every time one uses an ability, is a recipe for lag.
Conversely, if a player sends out a 'What IS that!?' request, then a customized response like 'Cryokinetic Ranger' or 'Elemental Myrmidon' might be reasonable.
I'm thinking that our choices for power-animations are going to be somewhat limited by 'families', but perhaps not.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yeah, Fireheart, I thought of 'Molecular Transmutation' for that example, because I'm not into magic so much (or the powers of The Quiz: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/quiz/4005-50157/, becuz: Grant Morrison). But the point I was making was that if you made a power with such disparate or seemingly random effects linked by a common theme INTO A NEW, CUSTOM SUPERPOWER (which seems to be the whole point of aesthetic decoupling and thus the goal in the first place) then taking one of the predicted standard powerset name likes Fire, Ice, Storm Summoning or Darkness obviously wouldn't make sense. You'd need something broader and more exotic like Physics Mastery or whatever.
And since there are so many types of exotic superpower, as per that super wiki, and so many characters with very disparate powers, from Superman to Dracula, it seems like a no-brainer. However, I think the last post and conclusion reached was a great solution, so I hope we get that.
Maybe clicking on another player will bring up an info tab like a standard comics' character datafile or profile, with info listed like this: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/DC_Database:Character_Template, in a style of presentation something like this: https://marvelplotpoints.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/cable-watcher.png The profile could be headed by their name and the role/function of their powerset in game terms, DPS, Tank, Healer, etc. Everything listed below that would be customizable aesthetic details together with a tab for statistics and xp, etc (all optional).
"TRUST ME."
Um, and I thought my point was that I didn't want any random pointer-clicker to have access to my information? So, No presentation of powers and functions and abilities.
Besides, if my character is a 'Dream Warrior' who manipulates the stuff of dreams, it would be 'incorrect' to identify her as Mind Control/Storm Summoning, just because that is the limited expression available to us in the game. So, if any and all such 'datafile' information is incorrect, then there's no reason to collect, transmit, or display it.
Such 'datafiles' are for comics fans who don't want to read the whole canon, just to understand the character. Batman might assemble such information (because he's Batman and that's what he does), but any passing hero or villain wouldn't have access to a dossier explaining what another character was capable of. I don't feel that they really belong in the game. POSSIBLY, such things might be assembled out-of-game for display and sharing among players. Possibly, Build-data might be accessible. Possibly an abbreviated character-sheet might exist as a thing that could be Shared/sent to a friend, but I wouldn't want it to exist as 'public' information.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Well you didn't say that, so I didn't think it was your point. But if you recall, I said "all optional" about the character profile tab, so in that event you wouldn't have to worry.
By Jove, that's what I've been saying all along! That was my whole point.
Again, it would be 'optional' in what I suggested, based on Huckelberry's suggestion, above. Many people in CoH didn't bother filling in their character Bio tab, IIRC. I'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with here, as we seem to be on the same page...
"TRUST ME."
What I can sah is Powerset names and the names of powers therein are appicable to the over-all theme of the set. Sometimes this naming convention straddles a line between being something iconic and something with broad implications.
These names will not be changed in anyway that is viewable publically within the power library data itself. Like I mentioned earlier we do want to support player mode, but if such includes client-only mods to renaming powers remains an unknown at thid point. We do plan on having a character biography field where players can add their own descriptions and backgrounds.
Being able to set your personal character info as viewable or not is more of a quality of life feature. We have not discussed this particular typemof setting before. I will add it to my list of player qol requests for us to go over when we get to that stage of development. Keep in mind that not all qol stuff will be implemented. And even those deemed suitable may take time to get to.
[hr]I don't use a nerf bat, I have a magic crowbar!
- Combat Mechanic -
[color=#ff0000]Tech Team. [/color]
Understood, thanks for the clarification, Tannim. Like I said, my only concern was that the naming conventions not be restrictive, given the unrestricted potential of the aesthetic decoupling, and not be contrary to the animations, which would be an easy pit to fall into with most 'conventional' superpower names. Anything that avoids that would be welcome by me.
"TRUST ME."
Thanks Tannim! And Gluke too.
I guess what I was ultimately trying to say is that I did not want to share my character 'stats', so the question of what my powers were, or what they were called, was not an issue, since I didn't want them visible. Marking that data as shared/not shared is a good solution. If I want to 'self describe' I can put it in my Bio-story.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Yes but people in real life aren't grouped into specific character classes ;^p. Heh. While you are technically correct - that is a little too simulationist for my taste. Players will already have an idea of our capabilities just based on our class and spec and I personally have no issue with people seeing what specific powers I selected. I mean, if my Bio/life history is going to be "out there" for all to read....
In any case, it wasn't a huge deal in CoH, don't see it being a huge deal in CoT.
Yes I was probably speaking more philosophically (or as you put it "simulationist") than in practical terms. I realize that other players are at least going to "have a clue" about the type of powers you have based on your public class/spec.
But I'd still make the point that it seems a little questionable to me that we'd have open default access to the complete individual power list on anyone we just happen to meet in the game. Sure it might be semi-obvious that so-n-so is a "Fire Blaster" but how would/should you automatically be able to know whether that guy is using Blaze or Rain of Fire?
I favor Fireheart's suggestion that we'd get to choose whether we want to allow our powers list to be openly viewable by other players if for no other reason than to maintain a sense of "realism" when it comes to these things. As we've been discussing aesthetic decoupling is already going to be providing a degree of "uncertainity" regardless because when I see you do something I'm not going to be able to automatically associate your animations to specific powers like I could in CoH. So if it's going to be somewhat uncertain from a visual point of view anyway why should I be able to get a detailed list of your powers by default?
Ultimately I wouldn't be monumentally upset if we DON'T get a way to hide our power list from others. But if it's trivial enough to have a simple on/off toogle for this list then I'd see no real harm in having the option.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
I agree - it's nowhere near deal-breaker status for me - I just look at it as a handy way to let everybody else see my build (if they are interested) so I don't have to type it out myself every time. Just a couple clicks and they can see what I can do. If anything it'll hopefully save me the effort of replying to "R U HEALZOR" tells ha ha.
Actually tells like "R U HEALZOR" were the ones that I never responded to on purpose. There are so many "red flags" contained in that paticular classic it's almost hard to know where to begin:
[list]
[*]No team ever NEEDED a dedicated healer in CoH if the team knew what they were doing.
[*]Experienced players would know which ATs/powersets had good heals or not and not have to ask.
[*]People who type in "chatspeak" like that turn out to be silly ass-hats roughly 99.999% of the time.
[*]etc...
[/list]
As to whether there was an option to hide/unhide my powers list I think I would actually vary it up depending on which characters I was playing. Some of my more "heroic" characters would want to be "completely open" about themselves so I could see where their exact powers might be common knowledge. On the other hand I could see some of my more "mysterious" or "villainous" characters want to try to hide their exact natures and thus they'd likely want to keep their exact powers hidden. For me the hide/unhide toggle would effectively become a RP QoL feature.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
All very true - and to be fair - I only remember getting those tells at the very beginning of the game (within the first year or two) and I tended towards playing mostly Defenders and Controllers (and Tanks). Only very rarely did I hear anyone mention "we need a healer" after that - and if I did it was often from someone relatively new to the game.
It was actually MY suggestion! To make the whole Bio profile optional, which is what happened in CoH. I agree that semi-realism would mean we don't know all the powers of any particular stranger, so it should follow in-game, but I always just figured when it came to this that there was some database of superhero profiles your toon could look up on their smartphone or something, if people needed an in-universe explanation. I also reiterate that the aesthetic decoupling will be something new in MMOs, so some people may feel counter-intuitively lost or confused by the plethora of unfamiliar power FX with no explanation and little obvious tactical sense behind them, and so may welcome a function to just look up another players' info to see what their role is. We may get some weirded out gamer reactions to the FX, at least at first. This is going to be an interesting game, in more ways than one.
"TRUST ME."
Obviously it was "optional" whether you chose to write anything in the "bio text" area of your CoH characters but I honestly don't remember it being an optional thing to make your powers list visible or not. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here but I'm pretty sure being able to specifically hide/unhide your individual powers list would be, as far as I'm aware, a new feature for CoT.
You bring up some valid points. As a further clarification to the suggestion about getting a toggle switch to hide/unhide powers I could easily accept the notion that everyone's toggle switch would be defaulted to the "unhidden" setting meaning you'd have to actively choose to hide your list from others. Since a likely majority of players would not bother to actively turn this off the net effect would be that most peoples' power lists would likely remain visible to most other people.
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]
Yes, I meant the optional bio tab was in CoH, not an optional powers tab, IIRC. However, as per the suggestion above (no less theoretical than anything else in this thread, but I am fairly confident it would work), the toons' game-tactical role would be open to view, ie TANK, HEALER, DPS, etc, but all other details would be aesthetic and thus in the character profile tab, entirely optional. So, other players could see if you're a tank or a damage dealer, if they wanted, but nothing else, unless you let them. I think it's fair to let other players know your role in that way, for the sake of gameplay, while leaving anything else up to you.
"TRUST ME."
Given the way the teaming GUI worked in CoH I didn't even really think it would be possible to hide "high-level" things like general class. I'm really only talking about being able to hide the specific individual "powers" sub-tab, not anything else per se.
See following example pic to see how these things looked in CoH:
[img=300x300]https://paragonwiki.com/w/images//1/13/UI_Personal_Info_Powers.jpg[/img]
CoH player from April 25, 2004 to November 30, 2012
[IMG=400x225]https://i.imgur.com/NHUthWM.jpeg[/IMG]