It would be nice if certain powersets that utilized the knockback effect had a selectable box on the power screen to select the specific effect. I loved playing my energy blaster and knocking everything around; plus it was crucial for dmg mitigation playing solo. However, since I primarily played melee toons, I know how annoying it can be to have your target knocked across the room. I managed to resist the temptation to chase, but too many scrappers remained locked on their targets and tended to agro other groups. When I played my blasters and PBs w/ kb, I always played with a little bit of guilt in groups as I had no choice but to make the scrappers play chase. Plus knocking the scrappers target away diminishes team dps while the scrapper moves to engage another target or chases the kb'ed target.

Empyrean wrote:

Nyxz wrote:
It would be nice if certain powersets that utilized the knockback effect had a selectable box on the power screen to select the specific effect. I loved playing my energy blaster and knocking everything around; plus it was crucial for dmg mitigation playing solo. However, since I primarily played melee toons, I know how annoying it can be to have your target knocked across the room. I managed to resist the temptation to chase, but too many scrappers remained locked on their targets and tended to agro other groups. When I played my blasters and PBs w/ kb, I always played with a little bit of guilt in groups as I had no choice but to make the scrappers play chase. Plus knocking the scrappers target away diminishes team dps while the scrapper moves to engage another target or chases the kb'ed target.
+1, it would be VERY QOL enhancing to be able to change from knockback solo to knockdown on a team, for example. It'd be a genius feature.

There is an old and very long thread discussing the issues of knockback, and it was something we were aware of being a gameplay issue (really of limited annoyance to melee characters), to which we have several possible ways of addressing. The main thing we are avoiding is additional "check boxes" or menu options just to make particular portions of powers operate in a particular way. Basically, without giving too much away, we're looking into gameplay methods for how or when this switch occurs, keeping in mind that unlike CoH, knock down and knock back are two different effects (CoH knockdown was a matter of low magnitude knock back which isn't the case for us).

Huckleberry wrote:

And lets not forget about knock up. (I'm not talking about getting pregnant either ;-p)
If we had a slow motion knock up effect, then it would be cool if certain abilities could combo with it for some ankle-grabbing, body-swinging madness! Or maybe some called shot head-over-head cartwheel inducing long-ranged blasting.
Oh, the joys of having a suspended ragdoll to play with.

like Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3?

blacke4dawn wrote:

Huckleberry wrote:
And lets not forget about knock up. (I'm not talking about getting pregnant either ;-p)
If we had a slow motion knock up effect, then it would be cool if certain abilities could combo with it for some ankle-grabbing, body-swinging madness! Or maybe some called shot head-over-head cartwheel inducing long-ranged blasting.
Oh, the joys of having a suspended ragdoll to play with.
Even though it would be really cool to have I sure that, at least the ankle-grabbing, would run into the same problems that wrestling moves would in general. That is having a proper animation and grab point based on height and bulk differences.

Since you took it seriously enough to say how it wouldn't work, I suppose I will show you how it could work. The benefit of a knock up or a knock down is that it places a hook at a known location in space. So an ankle would be right were it always would be, no matter the relative sizes of the two participants. Therefore this would not suffer the same problems at all in the least as would grappling and wrestling moves in general you allude to. So I say, go for it. A knocked down opponent should be a good candidate for a pick up and body slam, why not? and a suspended ragdoll would actually be a good candidate for a hammer-throw style grab and swing.

I wouldn't want this to turn into a test of twitch reflexes, however. From what I have gathered, it doesn't seem like this game is intended to be an action-combat style of game like TERA and Blade&Soul, so expecting players to take an action in the split second someone is knocked down or suspended in air would be unrealistic. Instead, I would propose a combination system like so:

Knockdown: Press the action once and you slam the ground, creating a localizes gravity well that knocks down nearby opponents and pulls them close. Press the action a second time immediately afterwards and you pick the downed opponent in front of you up over your head. Press the action a third time and you throw the opponent. If you don't press the third action immediately, you continue to carry the opponent until you do, or until the opponent breaks free. This type of double-triple-click combo wouldn't require twitch reaction style reflexes any more than double-clicking your mouse does. In other words, when you decide to double click your mouse, you treat the double click as a single predetermined action even though you are clicking twice. Likewise with this style of repetitive-click combination, you make up your mind at the first attack that you will be attempting a grab and throw, so you just click twice, a second apart, and the animations take care of themselves. It would be no different than making aftershocks in the earth power tree in DCUO, or celestial or rage combos or hard light constructs if you know DCUO. I imagine a lot of games use combos like that.

Knock up: Press the action once and you slam into the ground causing the nearby opponents to be tossed into the air. Press the action a second time immediately afterwards and you grab a suspended opponent in front of you and begin spinning it. Press the action a third time and you send your opponent hurtling into his allies or into a wall or over a cliff. If you don't throw your opponent, you will continue to spin it, causing damage to any opponents who come close and you could even move slowly while spinning. Relative sizes are immaterial. The only requirement is that one opponent has a hook defined as the part that will be grabbed in this attack and that your player has a hook defined as the part that grabs the opponent, i.e. your hand; but it could be a mentally created telekinetic construct too, for instance. The opponent's hook could default to always about 4 feet in the air. Or one could even make it so it is tossed into the air a distance that is a function of your character's height. I'm no programmer, but scaling things like that would probably already be in the game code. (otherwise how would it know how big to make shield bubbles, etc.)

So while I agree that grappling and wrestling would be extremely problematic to implement for different size grapplers, making a grab combination off of a knowckdown or knock up seems to avoid those problems nicely.

Tannim222 wrote:

The reasoning is primarily while it is possible to code, such requirements tend not to work very well for players with latency issues.

Off off topic:

This quote put me in mind of something that I know is not in the plans, but that I do feel strongly could give CoH an even brighter future down the road at some point.

As die-hard of a desktop/laptop guy as I am, touch-pads are here to stay and are a very significant part of the market. With all of the "non-twitch", latency-friendly, etc. considerations that are going into CoT's combat design, perhaps it could eventually be adapted to touch-pad control the way some of the older MMORPG's are now retroactively being successfully converted.

I think that's potentially an even more lucrative direction than, say, consoles (which I'm glad is not in the plans)--especially with a game that is not focusing on "action combat" in the twitch sense and with so many sandbox-like elements.

Honestly, it doesn't personally matter to me, I'll be playing on my desktop. But it could open a whole new world of players to enjoy and support the game.

Not for launch, or the first year, or even the 5th year, but maybe eventually?

Just a thought.

Still believe that the easiest and simplest solution to the "Knock Around" issues is a designated keybind toggle. While pressed, Knock does things one way ... and while not pressed Knock does things a different way.

Knock BACK (while pressed) / Knock Back Minimized (while not pressed)
Knock DOWN (while pressed) / Knock Down Minimized (while not pressed)
Knock UP (while pressed) / Knock Up Minimized (while not pressed)
Knock TOWARDS (while pressed) / Knock Towards Minimized (while not pressed)

Just press (or not) the toggle key when activating/selecting the Power to decide which "way" the Knock effect works (full power or minimized). This then puts the PLAYER in control of actively selecting, based on situational factors, when it is a good idea to toss the opponents around, and when it isn't.

Only other thing you'd want is a control option in the Game Settings for whether or not to "invert" the meaning of the Knock Toggle Key ... so that you have to press it to minimize it, or not press it to have it operating at full power. That way, you cater to both "styles" of User Interface and preferences for How The Player Prefers To PLAY.

Grimfox wrote:

I think you are creating an "expected behavior" by putting the KBvsKD in direct control of the player. People get more angry when they feel a player is doing something "incorrectly" vs. when they have no control over it. I feel that Tannim has outlined the best course. Whenever possible it is important to avoid the generation of animosity between players.

/em facepalm

Circular reasoning is circuitously circular.

There is one, and only one, surefire way to prevent animosity between Players. We call it a Single Player Game ... and even then, prevention of animosity between Players [i]is not assured[/i].

Look, as soon as you bring out the "expected behavior" canard as your excuse, you've lost the argument. It all devolves down into "YOU play the way *I* want you to!" in terms of "do what I want, not what you can (usefully do)."

H34l0rz H34l M3!
Tankers TANK!
DPS Delivers Beatdowns!

We call the people who lock themselves into this kind of thinking, and will brook no deviations from it as being Narrow Minded (we also point at them and laugh, but that's another topic).

There is something to be said for "cooperative play" in which what Players can do is mutually beneficial. What makes multiplayer gameplay FUN is when you can get those cooperative aspects working together in harmony such that they are self-reinforcing and appreciated.

Building the game DELIBERATELY in such a way that such an option [b][i]isn't even available[/i][/b] is usually referred to as a [b][url=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bad%20Move]BAD MOVE™[/url][/b].

Now, take another look at what you just said and understand the meaning of what you said as being this ...

Grimfox wrote:

Options BAD! Make gameplay so predictable and inflexible that I won't have to get angry at people who play with me because I can't control what they're doing!

My contention is that such a perspective on the question is fundamentally (and fatally) flawed.

...

Your turn.

Quote:

Grimfox wrote:
Options BAD! Make gameplay so predictable and inflexible that I won't have to get angry at people who play with me because I can't control what they're doing!

I never said this. I don't think this.

I stated my reasoning for agreeing with Tannim that the KB/KD toggle isn't necessary and I outlined why I thought so above. Beyond that I have no further comment.