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Complex Bosses

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desviper
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Complex Bosses

CoH had the problem with "bosses", AVs, Heroes, Monsters and the like all being simply big bags of HP and all it really took to taken them down was 4-20 PCs hammering on him (Trinity in mind) until he fell. This gets boring really.

CoH added some complexity in certain later arcs: the Cimorian Trial, Imperius Nictus used Soul Drain to come back and resume Big-bag-of-HP status a few times; the Rikti War Zone Trial, Honoree required sheilds be removed until a fair fight could be waged; Snaptooth would start as a Lt., come back as a Boss, and again as his EB Final Form, and many simply had healing powers to maintain their bag-of-HP status.

CoT can go further than this. It's been touched on in CO and other MMOs, but having bosses that are complex really adds to the experience of waging the final battle against this particular foe.

But having such options in the mission creator also makes the experience on both sides of the arc much better. Following are some specific ideas/examples of reasonable complexities to add and maybe how they could be added. Many are motifs common to video game bosses that are commonplace in non-MMO gaming.

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The Healer
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Many final bosses are healed during the fight in an attempt to outlast the protagonist, who presumably has lesser healing capabilities (less the case here). This is usually done with an environmental locus of healing: a charging station, or crystal or moonlight or whatnot that the protagonist must destroy before the boss can be finished off.

This could be easily implemented in CoT and the Mission creator by allowing ambushes of healing NPCs. The charging station could be implemented fairly easily too with a glowie-like object that can only target the Boss to provide healing and maybe other benefits.
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The Shield
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Another nearly ubiquitous boss tactic is shielding the boss until something is done to allow the boss to take damage. Again, the protagonist usually has to destroy something external to the boss before he can be damaged or must simply withstand attacks from the shield until the boss exits it.

Again, this could be easily implemented with NPCs that have some sort of external Unstoppable or maybe a stackable (multi-person stack) power that gives a forcefield or whatnot.
It could also easily be done with an object that does similar.

The more advanced version would be one where PCs are attacked while the Boss is under some sort of shield and must wait until the shield times out.
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The Final Form
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This refers to bosses that come back again and again as a new form within a single battle, similar to Snaptooth.

This would only require another NPC be able to spawn at the exact spot another died, which could be implemented elsewhere.

---------------------------
The Multi-Part Boss
---------------------------
Monstrous bosses in video games may be made of multiple pieces, each that can attack on its own and be targeted on its own. I'd note that the other parts might also be specialized, and this is where Hydro and Lusca fell short of the limbed boss goodness.

This could be more difficult in Mission Creator, since the costume generation would be only one piece, and may be limited to humanoids. On option on humanoids could be to separate parts in the Avatar Builder, since zones on the costume already exist, a system could be implemented to tell the engine "this is a separate entity"

This could make for some awesome giant robots and monsters, and could be coupled with The Shield, where one area of the Boss generates a shield that protects the rest.

Another implementation of this could be in supergiant bosses, Sentinel sized. Where only the head (or fraction of) can be targetting and one must scale a building to be in target range and line of sight (or simply fly)
---------------------------

Another type I'd like to be able to make is an enemy that only uses certain powers when in certain HP levels, high or low, which would be fairly easy.

Seeing bosses of these or greater complexity (while still being intuitive) in City of Titans and especially being able to create complex bosses in player-created arcs would really add to the experience of playing through a story arc, both on mechanical and narrative sides.

Thoughts? Other types missing?

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I agree with this.

I agree with this.

I think that there are other possibilities for this, such as power items, like the power stone or the infinity gauntlet. Meaning instead of targeting the bag of hit points at center mass, you target a part of their body, but this is like your multi-part boss.

I REALLY love the idea of transforming bosses, but maybe that's in large part due to my fan bias towards Dragon Ball. I really felt bosses like Snap tooth were sorely lacking in CoW, I love the idea of being so haggard after fighting a huge boss, only to find out he was only using 20% of his powers?!?! These could be triggered like the running option with bosses in the mission creator, instead of wussing out, the boss would transform, gain an increase in hitpoints and resistance but still retain damage and status effects of the previous round of the fight.

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I've also posted about the

I've also posted about the idea of "power items", I called Custom Temporary Powers. This could be awesome on its own, or coupled with The Shield or The Multi-Part Boss.

I'd just really like to see bosses besides bags of HP. But I'd still love to see GIANT MONSTERS...REALLY BIG GIANT MONSTERS WITH LOTS OF HIT POINTS....*takes breath*

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Hmmm, hate to [GS] Necro this

Hmmm, hate to [GS] Necro this....no I don't. :p

Another one to throw in here bosses that require a special weapon to damage. The formula is generally, block or dodge boss attacks, activate weapon or wait for it to recharge, hit boss with weapon, rinse a repeat 3 or 5 times, VICTORY ACHIEVED.

In CoT maybe, boss is invulnerable to most hits, but it must be distracted so a team member can activate a glowie, firing a weapon or dropping something on the boss, doing damage, until it's defeated.

It's a bit like The Sheild I guess, but it's the last archetype of boss battle I can think of past big-bag-of-HP.

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Or there's the alternate

Or there's the alternate approach of specifying that only a particular portion of the multi-piece Boss can be *effectively* damaged at any one time. Think of it as a sort of rolling Weak Point where you need to keep switching around which PART of the Boss you're attacking.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Or there's the alternate approach of specifying that only a particular portion of the multi-piece Boss can be *effectively* damaged at any one time. Think of it as a sort of rolling Weak Point where you need to keep switching around which PART of the Boss you're attacking.

Yeah I kinda went into that with the Sentinel example: you could target the head, then once it's destroyed, maybe the chest becomes the new target.

I'm wondering how they'd do this in CoT though, especially for UGC.

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I also fully agree to this!

I also fully agree to this! Dragons Dogma dragon boss you have to go through several stages along with the final boss of the game! Some huge monsters are the same, you have to do steps to kill them! I'd love to see these kind of bosses in CoT!

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I think one that was missed

I think one that was missed is the chase boss, or "slippery pig". He isn't particular powerful on his own but he moves quickly meaning you have to run after him more than actually shooting him. Regular slows and binds and holds aren't as effective on this particular boss. And you'll have to pay attention to surrounding mobs to keep from being overwhelmed as you give chase. The Boss could also trigger traps and powers that would slow you down so you'd have to dodge those in order to avoid losing him. However, that is a two way street, a special power or change in environment (blowing up a nearby barrel to knock him off his feet) would slow or stop him temporarily so the player or team could deal some damage.

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See, now that'd be cool!

See, now that'd be cool!

I think of that as an alteration of the Shield, you still have to wait for a certain interval before you can hit him, otherwise he's invulnerable. But a chase boss in CoT would be awesome.

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I can see a chase boss in the

I can see a chase boss in the open world, too. One variant of it could be just your average bag of a zillion hp (I know, that's the opposite of what the OP suggested, but stick with me) but with an irresistable trajectory to the center of town. Imagine something like the colossus from Cloverfield, spawning homicidal man-sized mites that drop off it as it trudges into the center of Titan City with the same kind of invasion mechanic like we see in Rift. It leaves world-changing destruction in its wake and if it makes it into the center of town it will dig in, set up camp and build even tougher defenses. All services and NPCs will be defunct or relocated to the outskirts of town (so people can still do a limited amount of other content) kind of like when your capital city got captured in Warhammer. So during its path across the world, the heroes/villians have only so much time to stop it, all the while running into not just the spawning mites but the indiginous gangs and ne'erdowells that populate the world. It wouldn't have to be a colossus, it could be an alien invasion dreadnaught, or a necromancer animating all the dead in the lands he walks over with an aura of constant AoE death around him, or an enormous radioactive sea cucumber looking for his son Nematode. All with the common element being a slow but steady march of destruction the players have to delay or stop before it gets worse.

Can you imagine being a lowbie on the first day of playing the game and you see all the great heroes and villians in such a desperate slugfest across the world? Talk about awe!


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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

I think one that was missed is the chase boss, or "slippery pig".

Like the freaking original Nightstar in the old Maria Jenkins arc where she would freak out at a certain point and run like crazy. That was nuts and made things really tough. You had to come up with a way to manage it--which was fun!

Or, on a smaller scale and to a lesser extent, the Carnival of Shadows Master Illusionists--especially the named ones. The named ones would phase AND run.

Awww, that made me sad. Such good times. Looking forward to the streets of Titan City. I really think it will feel like finding a new home.

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I see some people here may

I see some people here may have missed this update :P

http://cityoftitans.com/content/when-fist-meets-face-momentum

Basically, we have a powerful mechanic for enabling and managing more complex bosses. There are some interesting ideas in here though. But lets also hear how we might leverage Momentum

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Huckleberry wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:

I can see a chase boss in the open world, too. One variant of it could be just your average bag of a zillion hp (I know, that's the opposite of what the OP suggested, but stick with me) but with an irresistable trajectory to the center of town. Imagine something like the colossus from Cloverfield, spawning homicidal man-sized mites that drop off it as it trudges into the center of Titan City with the same kind of invasion mechanic like we see in Rift. It leaves world-changing destruction in its wake and if it makes it into the center of town it will dig in, set up camp and build even tougher defenses. All services and NPCs will be defunct or relocated to the outskirts of town (so people can still do a limited amount of other content) kind of like when your capital city got captured in Warhammer. So during its path across the world, the heroes/villians have only so much time to stop it, all the while running into not just the spawning mites but the indiginous gangs and ne'erdowells that populate the world. It wouldn't have to be a colossus, it could be an alien invasion dreadnaught, or a necromancer animating all the dead in the lands he walks over with an aura of constant AoE death around him, or an enormous radioactive sea cucumber looking for his son Nematode. All with the common element being a slow but steady march of destruction the players have to delay or stop before it gets worse.
Can you imagine being a lowbie on the first day of playing the game and you see all the great heroes and villians in such a desperate slugfest across the world? Talk about awe!

Those ideas are so much better than CoH-style Giant Monsters. There is the concern of taking the whole zone: so maybe limit it to special zones?

hankering to Rikti Invasions in CoH, it was annoying to get bombed and mobbed by attempted equal level Rikti when I'm just trying to get my cape!

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

I see some people here may have missed this update :P
http://cityoftitans.com/content/when-fist-meets-face-momentum
Basically, we have a powerful mechanic for enabling and managing more complex bosses. There are some interesting ideas in here though. But lets also hear how we might leverage Momentum

Huh, I did miss that I think, even has the line "Instead of your big boss fight being against a giant bag of hitpoints ..."!

In Dragonball Z: Xenoverse (not a bad game btw) the Giant Ape fights, while generally pretty poorly done, had the mechanic of having to deplete their stamina before damaging them, a Shield type boss. That'd be an obvious use of Momentum: starting it at 100% and having it refill and need to be depleted before the boss could be damaged.

Another way to use it could be to add Momentum each time a henchman is defeated, making the boss stronger each time a minion is defeated. This gives an interesting combat scenario: do you fight off the annoying dozens of minions that keep interrupting your powers (if that's a thing in CoT) or even mezzing you and make the boss harder, or do you just horde the boss and ignore the minions.

The opposite in a way: as the boss is hit, he gains Momentum, then uses it to summon minions to assist. Maybe a twist where certain damage yields more Momentum gain than others: e.g. punchy shooty damage gains much more than other types. The downside is that punchy shooty characters will have a harder time in this raid/mission/etc. Though a power set augment could add a better damage.

Thanks for the reminder, Shadow :)

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This is why you need a

This is why you need a Controller, to lock-down the (mechanism) so everyone else can pile on the DPS. Can't have 'momentum' if they can't move!

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

This is why you need a Controller, to lock-down the (mechanism) so everyone else can pile on the DPS. Can't have 'momentum' if they can't move!
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They sure can. The momentum mechanic isn't built by movement, it's built by attacking and taking attacks. Actually, it's built by whatever combination of things makes most sense for a particular archetype/build, there'll be a fair amount of refining in playtesting. But if the thing is a tank, I guarantee piling on the DPS will build its meter. If it's an attacker, getting hit will. If you are a healer, we will probably work out a formula to allow for healing to build momentum, and if not, some other formula that keeps things fair. It's a metaphorical momentum, not in the physics sense.

Now I think about it, it might be interesting to make a boss whose momentum meter goes through the roof if it's rendered immobile..*evil chuckle*

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As Shadow Elusive indicated,

As Shadow Elusive indicated, momentum is indeed built by hit and being hit, or more precisely by taking actions. Those actions include buffing, healing, controlling, debuffing (the latter of which are considered attacks).

Shadow's idea of momentum going up when the boss is controlled is something we've considered using. Particularly as a way for allowing the boss to eventualy break the controlls it is under and possibly making it more difficult to control it for a period of time, at the expense of its momentum meter. We do have to be careful though on placing too much importance on momentum for singular encounters. It is a useful mechanic, but not our only one. Nothing says we can't still use a boss' hit points, timed sequences, or other states to trigger a change in the encounter event.


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On a related but still

On a related but still completely different note, I'd like to see some bosses we don't fight. The reason we don't fight them is because they can't fight. For a gang it makes some sense that the leader is usually the toughest guy, but not so much for organized crime syndicates. Or the scientist who creates cybernetically enhanced super animals.

That could make for some interesting two-part encounters. E.g. One group would "fight the boss" (the boss' lackey) while the other group would fight through the base to cut off the boss' escape.

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What if the momentum was

What if the momentum was linked to the ratio of damage output to damage resistance? At 100% momentum the boss would be invulnerable but have no or almost zero attacking ability and at no momentum the boss is vulnerable but incredibly damaging. This could play into a shield type or chase type boss fairly easily. What controls the momentum shifts, would have to be within the players control. IE holds or some temp power ala the grenades from a certain COH raid. A team of blasters might want to keep the boss on the cusp of invulnerability so they don't have to take the bosses full damage output and because they have the damage output to overcome the high level of resistance. While a team of tanks would want it shifted the other direction because they could take the damage but would not have as much to deal out.

Another momentum boss trick would be to have to boss cast a powerful hold if it reached full momentum. So the teams goal would be to hide prior to it casting that hold or prevent it from reaching that level.

I assume in both cases that the players will be able to see the bosses momentum level. Like in COH you could see the health and stamina of the enemies you would be able to see the momentum bar as well. Otherwise things get much more tricky as to how to leverage momentum in fights. It's hard to come up with uses for a momentum bar without having experience with the mechanic in person. To me it seems like the break bars in GW2. Although those are almost always controlled by secondary effects like slow cripple or bleed and usually result (at full) in invulnerability or a particularly devastating attack if allowed to build.

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

What if the momentum was linked to the ratio of damage output to damage resistance? At 100% momentum the boss would be invulnerable but have no or almost zero attacking ability and at no momentum the boss is vulnerable but incredibly damaging. This could play into a shield type or chase type boss fairly easily. What controls the momentum shifts, would have to be within the players control. IE holds or some temp power ala the grenades from a certain COH raid. A team of blasters might want to keep the boss on the cusp of invulnerability so they don't have to take the bosses full damage output and because they have the damage output to overcome the high level of resistance. While a team of tanks would want it shifted the other direction because they could take the damage but would not have as much to deal out.

Gotta ask what a lore explanation for that would be :p An energy shield that absorbs impacts and degrades over time?

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It could be something as

It could be something as basic as the boss triggering certain events. For example, if the boss takes too much damage (or is put under too much pressure or in too great danger) they retreat to a position of safety and send out the likes of very dangerous but relatively fragile drones.

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

It could be something as basic as the boss triggering certain events. For example, if the boss takes too much damage (or is put under too much pressure or in too great danger) they retreat to a position of safety and send out the likes of very dangerous but relatively fragile drones.

A variant of something like this could be lets say the boss is in a cave and when no it takes x amount of damage it stomps and causes the stalactites(or stalagmites not sure which I forgot) to fall from the roof and he does like a rush attack which also makes him immune to damage stuns and binding effects and the only way to stop im is to make him crash into one of the stalactites/stalagmites he caused to fall in the first place.

I think a good comparison is fighting Pete in Kingdom Hearts 2. I think. Ideas, ideas, ideas.

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

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Elios Valoryn wrote:
Elios Valoryn wrote:

Darth Fez wrote:
It could be something as basic as the boss triggering certain events. For example, if the boss takes too much damage (or is put under too much pressure or in too great danger) they retreat to a position of safety and send out the likes of very dangerous but relatively fragile drones.
A variant of something like this could be lets say the boss is in a cave and when no it takes x amount of damage it stomps and causes the stalactites(or stalagmites not sure which I forgot) to fall from the roof and he does like a rush attack which also makes him immune to damage stuns and binding effects and the only way to stop im is to make him crash into one of the stalactites/stalagmites he caused to fall in the first place.
I think a good comparison is fighting Pete in Kingdom Hearts 2. I think. Ideas, ideas, ideas.

Stalactites was right ;) They hang titly to the ceiling.

CoH had a similar mechanic where you could trigger an ambush at 25%/50%/75% health.

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Thanks for clarifying lol

Thanks for clarifying lol

As foolish as this seems,

Gotem.

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Shadow Elusive wrote:
Shadow Elusive wrote:

But lets also hear how we might leverage Momentum

Thresholds.

Essentially an IF-THEN conditional in which Momentum will "auto-magically" be expended.

Each character (both PC and NPC) get ONE conditional Threshold that they can set up. The "trigger" for it can be either offensive, defensive or situational (i.e. "other").

To use a familiar City of Heroes example ... Mez.

IF
Mez stack goes above (Value)
THEN
Cosume Momentum to counter Mez ... until Momentum resource is exhausted

This would mean that every time the amount of Mez that gets stacked onto your character exceeds the Threshold (Value), enough Momentum gets "auto-magically" expended to bring that Mez stack below Threshold (Value) so that you don't stay Mezzed.

Or let's take an offensive example ... like Critical Hits.

IF
Critical Hit is scored by you
THEN
Consume (pick your %) of current Momentum to increase the Damage Severity of that Critical Hit

This would mean that every time you make a Critical Hit, some/all (pick your %) of your Momentum gets drained into increasing the Damage output/throughput of that specific attack when it hits.

You could set it up with a simple pull down menu of options and let players do a mix'n'match of what they want their Threshold for automatically burning their Momentum to be. And of course, one of the option combos could be IF None THEN Do Nothing so as to "inactivate" the feature for people who don't want to be making use of it.

The whole point of this exercise though is that this then creates a sort of Behavioral Mechanism that describes how that specific character "performs" When Push Comes To Shove in terms of pre-planned responses, and the requisite Momentum is deducted accordingly when the conditions are met. Think of it as being similar to an "Auto Power" for Momentum usage and you're on your way.


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Oooh, such auto usage of

Oooh, such auto usage of momentum could actually be very useful, and a very nice feature. Though to be safe it should be off by default.

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/em shrug

/em shrug

I have my moments ...


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I offer no explanation for my

I offer no explanation for my ideas. Dev asked for ideas, so I provided an idea. I wouldn't want to pin a writer into some explanation as to why it works that way. That's for the writer. I merely supplied the mechanic.

Another way to use momentum would be a taunt functionality. The specifics are up for some debate but generally the idea is that not attacking the tank, with the taunt based momentum would be bad. My initial thought was to have the tanks damage increase as his team mates were damaged. And hitting the tank would cause the bar to decrease. But that might encourage tanks to avoid damage and allow team mates to take that damage to fill up their momentum bars and sacrifice their team for their own benefit. This type of momentum could have some vicious ramifications in PVP, but while playing solo, in either PVE or PVP, provides almost zero benefit. Of course that is a bit outside the discussion being relevant to a player not an NPC. Then you have to consider the balance of facing two tanks. If you focused on either one the other would gain a lot of momentum and be quite damaging while the other can sit there and take it.

So instead of having a strict taunt mechanic that forcefully redirects the targeted foe to the tank. The foe (PC) would be greatly encouraged to focus on the tank less the tank goes super saiyan and destroys everyone.

Another delightfully cruel use of momentum would be a non-newtonian field. The harder and faster you hit it the stronger and more resistant it becomes, but if you don't hit hard enough all the attacks pass right through like water. It would force attackers to throttle their attack rate (which is so counter intuitive to every MMO boss ever) so that they could simply finish the boss in a meaningful time frame. This would be especially devilish if you had to beat this boss before say a bomb exploded or some other timed task. "No No No your hitting too hard we're going to run out of time!" Evil, truly evil. Imagine running into a boss like that at the end of the TF where the TF fails if you fail the final mission against this boss. You know the first few days will be spent trying to put together a team where the DPS is absurd just to overcome the momentum resistance on that final boss.

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I'd think you'd want to

I'd think you'd want to discourage team building per say.

So, on the non-newtonian fluid, you'd suggest a boss only be susceptible to mid-range damage, not low or high attacks?

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Grimfox wrote:
Grimfox wrote:

Another way to use momentum would be a taunt functionality. The specifics are up for some debate but generally the idea is that not attacking the tank, with the taunt based momentum would be bad. My initial thought was to have the tanks damage increase as his team mates were damaged. And hitting the tank would cause the bar to decrease. But that might encourage tanks to avoid damage and allow team mates to take that damage to fill up their momentum bars and sacrifice their team for their own benefit. This type of momentum could have some vicious ramifications in PVP, but while playing solo, in either PVE or PVP, provides almost zero benefit. Of course that is a bit outside the discussion being relevant to a player not an NPC. Then you have to consider the balance of facing two tanks. If you focused on either one the other would gain a lot of momentum and be quite damaging while the other can sit there and take it.

I think you discounted your own idea too soon. There is definite merit here. But rather than building your tank's damage output, make it a debuff of the taunted target's damage output instead. In other words, the more a target ignores your taunt, the less damage they do. There is very real incentive there on all sides, especially if your tank is an evasion tank that avoids getting hit! O.o

Mechanically there are a few ways this could work... but the only ways I see that would make it work only for the taunted target and not for every opponent your team is facing would be to either
1) make it a channelled ability, applicable to both AoE taunts and targeted taunts, or
2) make it an actual applied debuff effect on the taunted targets that can only be broken when a certain number of attacks (successful or not) or a certain amount of damage (prior to damage reduction) is applied to the taunter. The higher the skill level and the higher the momentum, the more attacks or damage would be required to break it.

From the point of view of the taunted target, we would need to make the taunter readily identifiable. I imagine a red string of fate connecting the two of you would be appropriate here. So at a glance you know who to attack. You could even go so far as to automatically change the taunted's target to the taunter, causeing the taunted to manually change their target back to whomever they are trying to target instead. A willpower save negates the retarget effect.

And in PvP I see this being abused by having a tank run up taunt and then run behind the lines, so there would have to be a maximum range limit, beyond which the taunt effect dispells. So if a tank runs behind the lines the damage reduction on the taunted goes away. Likewise if someone is taunted and then runs from the tank in order to dispell the debuff, the tank still did his or her job by preventing the taunted from damaging the tanks teammates. Seems like this would work.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Counter-proposal.

Counter-proposal.

The BIG BAD™ is highly resistant to whatever/whoever hit them LAST.

This means that the "trick" to defeating them is to have a rolling cascade of different types of attacks from different sources so as to "stay ahead" of the rolling cascade of heavy resistances. This makes them almost impossible to solo, but they can be taken down by a DIVERSE team.


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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

Counter-proposal.
The BIG BAD™ is highly resistant to whatever/whoever hit them LAST.
This means that the "trick" to defeating them is to have a rolling cascade of different types of attacks from different sources so as to "stay ahead" of the rolling cascade of heavy resistances. This makes them almost impossible to solo, but they can be taken down by a DIVERSE team.

What about HOMOGENEOUS teams? I see no reason to create a mechanic that limits teaming. One of CoH's greatest successes was inclusive teaming, as opposed to the exclusive teaming prevalent in almost every other MMO.

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You mean cookie cutters?

You mean cookie cutters?

Or do you mean something more along a thematic of "everyone is Radiation" ...?

Such a team would have a harder time of it generating damage throughput, but they wouldn't be up against outright Immunities (which are basically "cheat codes for NPCs").


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Please forgive the GW2

Please forgive the GW2 references below, I just started playing that and have it very much in the forefront of my brain at the present.

That warning said, there are a lot of TF/trial type things in GW2. Dungeons and Fractals, they're called. In almost all cases, the map you're on is an instance and there are objects in that map you can interact with, pick up, put down, use, throw, etc. For example. There's this one where the badguys have trapped this HUGE, Statue of Liberty-sized stone titan using magic seals. You have to defeat the mobs, pick up the magic hammer, then ascend the scaffolding they've put in place around the titan to get to the seals and use the hammer to break them, in the correct order, to free the titan. The hammer get''s hot and does damage to you as you hold it, so you have to drop it once in a while and let it cool off, all while trying to fight off the constant respawns of mobs and not fall off the scaffolding, which is trapped. At one point, you have to hammer the seal for the left arm, then go over to the other side and hit the right arm, then back and forth until both are broken. Just hammering on the left until it greaks doesn't work, because a force field springs up preventing you from hitting either of those seals twice in a row.

In another content thing I did, you're in a pirate cave and you want to get through the cave to the ship to open the lost treasure chest. The front room of that cave system has a gate that you cant destroy or open by force, but there are these pressure plates on the floor, and you have to hold all three of them down at the same time to get he gate to open for you. So you put stones, which are available and can be picked up, on the pressure plates, the gate opens, etc. Then you have to fight your way through the ghost pirates, jump up and down and swim etc until you get to the treasure chest.

I'm not suggesting we have jumping puzzles or anything like that, but just having objects that can be interacted with, picked up, moved around, thrown, set back down again, etc is a thing. You might find a shovel. Digging probably isn't possible just anywhere, but there might be a weird looking area on the floor that you can click on, and when you have the shovel, you can dig THERE to do something.

Sometimes the boss is invulnerable and there's a way to defeat that, on the map, by doing a specific thing with as specific item. This kind of thing is fun, to me. Puzzles and fights that require planning, strategy, reading the wiki, paying attention, teamwork, cooperation, etc.

One last GW2 example. In Prof. Portamatt's lab, which is underwater, you have to destroy either one of two nondescript objects, then acces the RIGHT control panel, and answer a series of questions on the dialog boxes that pop up. This opens a portal to you-don't-know-where. If you go in it, it TPs you to a random part of the map. BUT IF, after you open the portal, you access the set of control panels on the right, it will give you a set of numbers representing nonsensical "calibration settings" of the portal device. It gives you three numbers, and based on those you are supposed to adjust the three controls by increasing the power to the gasnausenfosser, throttling the whatzit, etc. If you do that stuff right, based on the calibrated numbers they give you, THEN go through the portal, it takes you to the treasure chest room. The three variables they give you have three possible number settings each, and based on what they are when it tells them to you, you have to consult a table on the wiki to get the right set of adjustments to make. I don't know how long it took for people to figure out how this all worked, but I don't think they originally told people anything except "There's a treasure chest, this is a puzzle." and the community finally cracked it, or so I assume. And that's not even a boss fight with a huge payoff, it's a pretty random thing out in the middle of nowhere that gives pretty blah treasure. All it uses is objects that can be attacked and dialog boxes that pop up when you click on objects. This is a little more advanced than "just click the glowwie", and pretty fun, if you ask me.

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Those puzzles sound fun.

Those puzzles sound fun. Spatial complexity keeps the team relevant. Requiring a variety of powers isn't bad by itself, just needs lots of playtesting. Temp powers and such might fill the gaps.

The Sewer Trial was my favorite puzzle-battle in CoH. So many happy memories of scraping through, rescues and rezzes, just missing the deadline, and finally exiting the mission with the whole team wielding big guns.

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Nothing at all wrong with

Nothing at all wrong with complexity in the boss fights, I really enjoyed the Incarnate trials with some of the odd mechanics they had. Certainly though you don't want a must have "x" powerset mechanic... if it's required then temp powers are certainly needed. One of CoH's biggest strengths was that almost any combination of random characters could succeed if they played it well... most other games seem to be married to the Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS.

I would save the really complex mechanics for late game stuff though, let new players cut their teeth on simpler fare for the most part. Or, how about a "veteran" difficulty setting? Setting it could enable some more complex mechanics with the encounters for experienced players while turning it off could make it easier for newer players still learning the game; albeit at probably a small XP loss. Something so that instead of simply setting "+4 x 8" for high difficulty you just have things run normally but add new mechanics or abilities to keep things interesting?

I doubt anyone would disagree that mobs like the Circle of Thorns, Malta, Devouring Earth and Knives of Artemis were considerably harder than vanilla mobs like Council. Why were they tougher? Because they had different abilities and mechanics. And Sappers. I really hated Sappers. ;)

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Devouring Earth were supposed

Devouring Earth were supposed to be big bags of HP. Portal villains were supposed to be more complex. Making all the bosses complex would be a mistake.

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CMA wrote:
CMA wrote:

I would save the really complex mechanics for late game stuff though, let new players cut their teeth on simpler fare for the most part. Or, how about a "veteran" difficulty setting? Setting it could enable some more complex mechanics with the encounters for experienced players while turning it off could make it easier for newer players still learning the game; albeit at probably a small XP loss. Something so that instead of simply setting "+4 x 8" for high difficulty you just have things run normally but add new mechanics or abilities to keep things interesting?

While it most likely won't enable more complex behaviour from the boss the challenges system will fill a large part of what you propose since it will make the encounter more "complex" by having additional conditions for additional/higher rewards. One of those challenges could be a more "intelligent" boss, though to my knowledge that possibility has not been mentioned by the devs so far.

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ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:

Devouring Earth were supposed to be big bags of HP. Portal villains were supposed to be more complex. Making all the bosses complex would be a mistake.

You'll have to give an argument why any boss should be a "big bag of HP" with no color or strategy. I am firmly anti bag of HP.

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Not that I'm pro-bag of HP,

Not that I'm pro-bag of HP, but it could be argued that they beat out glass cannon characters. If you're the guy that burns down a group of mobs in 3 moves, you probably don't fare well against the defensive rock monster that survived and started to punch you.

Obviously we can have tanky defensive bosses that have more mechanics than 'a larger than average health pool' for this purpose though.

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Exactly! Honestly, there's

Exactly! Honestly, there's little excuse for dragging the corner to resize a boss and 10x the health and call it a boss, or worse, a giant monster.

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:

Exactly! Honestly, there's little excuse for dragging the corner to resize a boss and 10x the health and call it a boss, or worse, a giant monster.

There is plenty of excuse. Lower level teams that dont have access to their full power list. On monster island you had an area with a bunch of giant monsters, they werent intended to be a team event, but to be a larger tougher boss.The whole game doesnt need to be made for hardcore players, that market wont support a game.There will be plenty of challenging bosses, they dont all need to be like that.

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I like variety. Let's have a

I like variety. Let's have a bag of HP once in a while. Here and there. Just not most of the time.

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And to be clear: Bosses with

And to be clear: Bosses with more reasonable amounts of HP and stupidly overdone defense or damage reduction so that you're barely scratching them are essentially the same thing as bags of HP, only with more frustration. Don't do this and pretend you're doing something different than bags of HP.

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DariusWolfe wrote:
DariusWolfe wrote:

And to be clear: Bosses with more reasonable amounts of HP and stupidly overdone defense or damage reduction so that you're barely scratching them are essentially the same thing as bags of HP, only with more frustration. Don't do this and pretend you're doing something different than bags of HP.

Yeah, smacking a larger robot isn't more fun than a regular big bot.

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ivanhedgehog wrote:
ivanhedgehog wrote:
desviper wrote:

Exactly! Honestly, there's little excuse for dragging the corner to resize a boss and 10x the health and call it a boss, or worse, a giant monster.

There is plenty of excuse. Lower level teams that dont have access to their full power list. On monster island you had an area with a bunch of giant monsters, they werent intended to be a team event, but to be a larger tougher boss.The whole game doesnt need to be made for hardcore players, that market wont support a game.There will be plenty of challenging bosses, they dont all need to be like that.

Like I said earlier "color or strategy", at least add a bit more flair. E.g., there's a giant rat in Dark Souls 1 in the Depths. It's just that, a bigger rat. Honestly not a 10/10 encounter, but it had an axe lodged in it's left eye, and even that little touch made it more interesting than just a larger rat.

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I'd be on board with having a

I'd be on board with having a variety of dynamics for bosses and upper-tier encounters. Something I notice a lot in WoW is that so many boss fight mechanics can easily be ignored while you just stand there putting out your rotation. Granted, the end-game content with raids and mythic dungeons spice it up a little, those instances aren't very accessible to casual players and require a decent amount of work on the player's side. I think that more complicated (not necessarily difficult) fights allow for stronger engagement, thus making players feel involved with the game.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I like variety. Let's have a bag of HP once in a while. Here and there. Just not most of the time.

This is pretty much where I stand on the issue. Variety is the spice of life... and I like it hot.

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Empyrean wrote:
Empyrean wrote:

I like variety. Let's have a bag of HP once in a while. Here and there. Just not most of the time.

I think my favorite way of handling enemies like this is the Butcher way back in Diablo 1.

In Diablo 1, he was this big sack of angry that had the next best thing to no special moves at all. He was just a dude where you'd open a door, he'd run up to you, and start chopping. What made him so intimidating was that he was hard to kill and hit like a truck, making any fight against him a race against time or a race against a monster to another part of the dungeon, horror movie style.

"Simple brute" mobs can work really well, but they have to be done right to matter.

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the game has to cater to all

the game has to cater to all difficulties. Tougher bosses would reward more xp/inf but nothing important like gear etc would be gated.That way everyone can play the way they wish and we all have fun.No loot drama like only dropping things from 1 difficulty.

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More HP doesn't mean tougher,

More HP doesn't mean tougher, just longer.

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If the only thing that

If the only thing that increases is the HP, or the effective HP through increased defensive stats, then I would agree that that should be avoided at all costs. There needs to be something more to make them unique, that thing that "justified" them becoming a boss.

In the early games I think, due to the low number of powers, that it's reasonable that bosses are more HP based than tactics, but with increases in levels it should shift towards tactics over HP with end game ones being almost only tactics based.

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I hear lots of talk of

I hear lots of talk of tactics, but no mention of tactics to be used.

Please use an example of tactics, that won't come off as work to other players who just want to smash buttons.

What? Like, every 10 seconds, you have to run off the big tile that just vanished and exposed you to melting lava and possibly killed someone, so they now think that tactics is a dumb way for a boss?

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I hear lots of talk of tactics, but no mention of tactics to be used.

Please use an example of tactics, that won't come off as work to other players who just want to smash buttons.

What? Like, every 10 seconds, you have to run off the big tile that just vanished and exposed you to melting lava and possibly killed someone, so they now think that tactics is a dumb way for a boss?

I gave 4 examples in the OP of bosses better than bags of health

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Well, you could take the

Well, you could take the incarnate trials along with Tin Mage and Apex TF's for inspiration. Apex's dropping zones of death, beating down two bosses at once, escaping minions giving a buff to the boss, anything really other than a simple tank & spank.

The Hydra trial is an example of dealing with a boss by using temp powers.

Lord Recluse's tower buffs that had to be dealt with first in the Statesman's (Miss Liberty) TF, or the Vine room earlier in the same TF where you could have one team member stealth to the room and TP the rest leaving lots fewer vines to deal with.

The biggest example of tactics in a fight was IMO the Hamidon raid. It took months to get tactics down to the point that the raid was almost always successful then the whole thing was changed by the Devs and it was more months to again get to the point that raids succeeded more often than they failed. I tanked that raid on Guardian probably 100 or more times before the revamp and it was certainly one of the most challenging things going at that time. According to the Devs we never did discover the method they had envisioned for dealing with Hami, we just found ways to handle it that worked.

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I wish they would come out

I wish they would come out and tell us how it was intended.

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The Healing NPC...just more

The Healing NPC...just more HP to smash, except you have another target to go after instead. No difference really.

Shield to take down...just more HP to smash, except you're not targeting the boss.

Final Form...just more HP to smash, except now there's a new form.

Multiple bosses spawn...just more HP to smash, except it's split into different targets.

Really, your ideas seem to be, MORE HP TO SMASH DOWN, except split the HP into different targets.

How about a Boss that everyone on the team has to use their STUN on at the same time, or the boss doesn't get stunned and maintains high levels of resists/defenses/HP, but when they all use their stun at once, it all drops quickly.

Now, it all goes onto one member of the team either not using their stun or not having one and then the tactic is...SMASH DOWN HP!

Removing tiles from floor. If you don't get out of the lava that just appeared under your feet, you're going to go down QUICK! No use to help on the boss with the rest of your team, so less damage and now it feels like more HP, because there's less people to take him down.

I have the high ground! If you have a member with flight/hover abilities doing damage to the target, they take more damage! Speedster teams cry, but the Flying Angels love the boss!

Boss has high resists, but if you can still lay down 2k DPS in a 10 second window, then his resists take a dive and they keep taking a dive until he dead, as long as you hit the DPS target window (or exceed it).

Seeing as how I'm guessing CoT won't be Tank/DPS/Healer focused, if it's like CoH anyways, maybe a boss that takes a hit to resists/defenses whenever it's taunted. Encouraging the taking of a taunt or the using of one. Not punchvoke, but actual taunt use.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I hear lots of talk of tactics, but no mention of tactics to be used.

Please use an example of tactics, that won't come off as work to other players who just want to smash buttons.

What? Like, every 10 seconds, you have to run off the big tile that just vanished and exposed you to melting lava and possibly killed someone, so they now think that tactics is a dumb way for a boss?

The devs have stated that one of the inspirations for their trial content is Final Fantasy XIV. In fact, when I suggested trial content to them in a thread in the suggestions forum, Tyche swooped in like a badass and proceeded to say that they were already doing that long before I made the request.

Here's a great example of a tactical encounter. There's lots of things you have to keep an eye on, but everything is fairly well telegraphed to the players that are paying attention

I've played this fight before. It's honestly really damn fun because nothing is really difficult to get a grasp of, and if you're kind of a dumb player the other players can pick up the slack for you. It's got everything - adds, DDR, explosive runes, and lots of dodging, but it never feels overwhelming. It's designed such that with a little bit of talking, you can work out all the information you need to win the fight quickly, efficiently, and without dying very often.

While I can respect that some players will always want a big dumb boss fight that doesn't do anything you need to worry about - and I'm deeply certain that that will happen, even if complex bosses like the one I linked above get added to the game - a big part of what makes a boss "easy to understand" is having the tuning be right and controlling the sorts of input the players receive.

But we're talking about a mission creator, right? And so they basically have to entrust to players to make these complex boss fights fun. The problem with that is there's no way to guarantee it - there will always be played that use User Generated Content as a shortcut, a way to abuse the system for rewards, or are just friggin lazy. When it comes to that sort of thing in an MMO, Sturgeon was a wild-eyed idealist. But as long as we have the tools to make the good fights, those bad ones can largely be ignored.

I'm personally looking forward to the idea of getting a badass arena story going. I like designing fights, and I like doing stories, but the whole "mass of hallways and rooms filled with dudes" thing has never been something I enjoyed putting together, so if we have the chance to make complex boss fights, I'll be damned happy.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I wish they would come out and tell us how it was intended.

I think one of the devs (maybe it was Posi or Babs in one of their AMAs, I can't recall at this point) said it was basically to run around the exterior of the jello and shoot the mitos in the original Hami encounter, working inward.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I wish they would come out and tell us how it was intended.

I think one of the devs (maybe it was Posi or Babs in one of their AMAs, I can't recall at this point) said it was basically to run around the exterior of the jello and shoot the mitos in the original Hami encounter, working inward.

That doesn't solve the "pop" when Hami reached 50% and summoned a yellow mito for every player and pet in the bowl. Having been there for a couple there's no way you're gonna clear that... we tried several times and got wiped in seconds each time. Loose the hold on Hami at that point in the takedown and no more raids until the next server reset.

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Brand X wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The Healing NPC...just more HP to smash, except you have another target to go after instead. No difference really.

Shield to take down...just more HP to smash, except you're not targeting the boss.

Final Form...just more HP to smash, except now there's a new form.

Multiple bosses spawn...just more HP to smash, except it's split into different targets.

Really, your ideas seem to be, MORE HP TO SMASH DOWN, except split the HP into different targets.

How about a Boss that everyone on the team has to use their STUN on at the same time, or the boss doesn't get stunned and maintains high levels of resists/defenses/HP, but when they all use their stun at once, it all drops quickly.

Now, it all goes onto one member of the team either not using their stun or not having one and then the tactic is...SMASH DOWN HP!

Removing tiles from floor. If you don't get out of the lava that just appeared under your feet, you're going to go down QUICK! No use to help on the boss with the rest of your team, so less damage and now it feels like more HP, because there's less people to take him down.

I have the high ground! If you have a member with flight/hover abilities doing damage to the target, they take more damage! Speedster teams cry, but the Flying Angels love the boss!

Boss has high resists, but if you can still lay down 2k DPS in a 10 second window, then his resists take a dive and they keep taking a dive until he dead, as long as you hit the DPS target window (or exceed it).

Seeing as how I'm guessing CoT won't be Tank/DPS/Healer focused, if it's like CoH anyways, maybe a boss that takes a hit to resists/defenses whenever it's taunted. Encouraging the taking of a taunt or the using of one. Not punchvoke, but actual taunt use.

You got me, multiple bags of HP is better than one bag of HP :p

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desviper wrote:
desviper wrote:
Brand X wrote:

The Healing NPC...just more HP to smash, except you have another target to go after instead. No difference really.

Shield to take down...just more HP to smash, except you're not targeting the boss.

Final Form...just more HP to smash, except now there's a new form.

Multiple bosses spawn...just more HP to smash, except it's split into different targets.

Really, your ideas seem to be, MORE HP TO SMASH DOWN, except split the HP into different targets.

How about a Boss that everyone on the team has to use their STUN on at the same time, or the boss doesn't get stunned and maintains high levels of resists/defenses/HP, but when they all use their stun at once, it all drops quickly.

Now, it all goes onto one member of the team either not using their stun or not having one and then the tactic is...SMASH DOWN HP!

Removing tiles from floor. If you don't get out of the lava that just appeared under your feet, you're going to go down QUICK! No use to help on the boss with the rest of your team, so less damage and now it feels like more HP, because there's less people to take him down.

I have the high ground! If you have a member with flight/hover abilities doing damage to the target, they take more damage! Speedster teams cry, but the Flying Angels love the boss!

Boss has high resists, but if you can still lay down 2k DPS in a 10 second window, then his resists take a dive and they keep taking a dive until he dead, as long as you hit the DPS target window (or exceed it).

Seeing as how I'm guessing CoT won't be Tank/DPS/Healer focused, if it's like CoH anyways, maybe a boss that takes a hit to resists/defenses whenever it's taunted. Encouraging the taking of a taunt or the using of one. Not punchvoke, but actual taunt use.

You got me, multiple bags of HP is better than one bag of HP :p

I wasn't trying to be mean, and I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it is what your examples looked like. That one million HP split into multiple targets is better than one target. I guess it gives the feeling of finishing a thing off faster, but either way, you're going through one million HP.

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having to deal 500000000

having to deal 500000000 damage to win isn't the issue, it's slogging away at a regular but bigger boss that's boring as hell

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Don’t forget that we can

Don’t forget that we can leverage our Momentum mechanic for regular encounters to switch up their abilties, Beeak Free from controls, and possibly change behaviors. The higher the rank of the opponent npc, the more we have to work with in terms of possible individual npc mechanics.

And as NPC ranks get higher, the more complex encounters can become.

Now one example here was of another npc healing the other. A statement was made that this was just “more hp” to burn through to win.

I posit that this doesn’t have to be the case. If Badguy A is the objective and he is being healed by Badguy B, then Badguy B doesn’t necessarily have to be defeated to win, and you don’t necessarily have to fight through the extra healing.

What if you had 2 Stlwarts in your team and one with the Living Target Mastery. He goes and tanks Badguy B so he stops healing Badguy A.

Meanwhile the other Stalwart helps the team because he has Battle Leader.

Or maybe you have a commander than can consistently control Badguy B, perhaps even stub a Charm that causes his heal to work for your own team. Suddenly the counter shifts differently.

Two different tactics. Yet both are viable. The encounter is open to multiple possible team configurations to work together toward a win without the devs enforcing one particular method.

And this isn’t to say that there shoudmnt be encounters that are particularly difficult that have different phases when’re different actions are required. There is plenty of room for all sorts of encounters with a myriad of mechanics.


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CMA wrote:
CMA wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I wish they would come out and tell us how it was intended.

I think one of the devs (maybe it was Posi or Babs in one of their AMAs, I can't recall at this point) said it was basically to run around the exterior of the jello and shoot the mitos in the original Hami encounter, working inward.

That doesn't solve the "pop" when Hami reached 50% and summoned a yellow mito for every player and pet in the bowl. Having been there for a couple there's no way you're gonna clear that... we tried several times and got wiped in seconds each time. Loose the hold on Hami at that point in the takedown and no more raids until the next server reset.

Again, my recollection isn't the best, but I believe that how many of the "yellow dawn" was based on those who were in the actual jello geometry, not necessarily the bowl. If you stayed outside the goo itself, and Hami hit those HP thresholds, it wouldn't matter that they happened because nothing would spawn based on the fact that no actual character was in the jello. Or if you had limited melee numbers in the bowl, those limited yellow dawn spawns could be taken care of during the course of the raid. I honestly think the method that was devised by Marut and co. is the better strat because it allowed for more participation by the melee players.

I was a pretty regular Hami raider, original encounter and revamp, and its not impossible to clear a yellow dawn. Mind you, it's not pleasant but it is entirely do-able if you've got the patience.

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Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
CMA wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I wish they would come out and tell us how it was intended.

I think one of the devs (maybe it was Posi or Babs in one of their AMAs, I can't recall at this point) said it was basically to run around the exterior of the jello and shoot the mitos in the original Hami encounter, working inward.

That doesn't solve the "pop" when Hami reached 50% and summoned a yellow mito for every player and pet in the bowl. Having been there for a couple there's no way you're gonna clear that... we tried several times and got wiped in seconds each time. Loose the hold on Hami at that point in the takedown and no more raids until the next server reset.

Again, my recollection isn't the best, but I believe that how many of the "yellow dawn" was based on those who were in the actual jello geometry, not necessarily the bowl. If you stayed outside the goo itself, and Hami hit those HP thresholds, it wouldn't matter that they happened because nothing would spawn based on the fact that no actual character was in the jello. Or if you had limited melee numbers in the bowl, those limited yellow dawn spawns could be taken care of during the course of the raid. I honestly think the method that was devised by Marut and co. is the better strat because it allowed for more participation by the melee players.

I was a pretty regular Hami raider, original encounter and revamp, and its not impossible to clear a yellow dawn. Mind you, it's not pleasant but it is entirely do-able if you've got the patience.

Well, in the time I was actively raiding Guardian never cleared one to my knowledge, we did try on at least three occasions I remember.

On the yellow dawn, I remember quite a few yellows spawning outside the jello, right on top of characters who were running or once on a group of griefers who dragged several of the GM's into the raid at the critical point. After that little trick we always assigned a couple tanks on griefer duty to pull GM's away if idiots would drag them in. It's not conclusive but there were usually some that spawned outside so we always assumed it was targeted on everyone in the bowl.

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CMA wrote:
CMA wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
CMA wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I wish they would come out and tell us how it was intended.

I think one of the devs (maybe it was Posi or Babs in one of their AMAs, I can't recall at this point) said it was basically to run around the exterior of the jello and shoot the mitos in the original Hami encounter, working inward.

That doesn't solve the "pop" when Hami reached 50% and summoned a yellow mito for every player and pet in the bowl. Having been there for a couple there's no way you're gonna clear that... we tried several times and got wiped in seconds each time. Loose the hold on Hami at that point in the takedown and no more raids until the next server reset.

Again, my recollection isn't the best, but I believe that how many of the "yellow dawn" was based on those who were in the actual jello geometry, not necessarily the bowl. If you stayed outside the goo itself, and Hami hit those HP thresholds, it wouldn't matter that they happened because nothing would spawn based on the fact that no actual character was in the jello. Or if you had limited melee numbers in the bowl, those limited yellow dawn spawns could be taken care of during the course of the raid. I honestly think the method that was devised by Marut and co. is the better strat because it allowed for more participation by the melee players.

I was a pretty regular Hami raider, original encounter and revamp, and its not impossible to clear a yellow dawn. Mind you, it's not pleasant but it is entirely do-able if you've got the patience.

Well, in the time I was actively raiding Guardian never cleared one to my knowledge, we did try on at least three occasions I remember.

On the yellow dawn, I remember quite a few yellows spawning outside the jello, right on top of characters who were running or once on a group of griefers who dragged several of the GM's into the raid at the critical point. After that little trick we always assigned a couple tanks on griefer duty to pull GM's away if idiots would drag them in. It's not conclusive but there were usually some that spawned outside so we always assumed it was targeted on everyone in the bowl.

I remember a yellow dawn that had 2 nictus crystal in there

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Hella good news out of Tannim

Hella good news out of Tannim :)

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An important element to more

An important element to more interesting boss battles is that if something should be avoided, it needn't be a one-shot kill element. I think it also makes the characters and team feel more powerful if there's the opportunity to recover from a mistake.

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CMA wrote:
CMA wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
CMA wrote:
Cobalt Azurean wrote:
Brand X wrote:

I wish they would come out and tell us how it was intended.

I think one of the devs (maybe it was Posi or Babs in one of their AMAs, I can't recall at this point) said it was basically to run around the exterior of the jello and shoot the mitos in the original Hami encounter, working inward.

That doesn't solve the "pop" when Hami reached 50% and summoned a yellow mito for every player and pet in the bowl. Having been there for a couple there's no way you're gonna clear that... we tried several times and got wiped in seconds each time. Loose the hold on Hami at that point in the takedown and no more raids until the next server reset.

Again, my recollection isn't the best, but I believe that how many of the "yellow dawn" was based on those who were in the actual jello geometry, not necessarily the bowl. If you stayed outside the goo itself, and Hami hit those HP thresholds, it wouldn't matter that they happened because nothing would spawn based on the fact that no actual character was in the jello. Or if you had limited melee numbers in the bowl, those limited yellow dawn spawns could be taken care of during the course of the raid. I honestly think the method that was devised by Marut and co. is the better strat because it allowed for more participation by the melee players.

I was a pretty regular Hami raider, original encounter and revamp, and its not impossible to clear a yellow dawn. Mind you, it's not pleasant but it is entirely do-able if you've got the patience.

Well, in the time I was actively raiding Guardian never cleared one to my knowledge, we did try on at least three occasions I remember.

On the yellow dawn, I remember quite a few yellows spawning outside the jello, right on top of characters who were running or once on a group of griefers who dragged several of the GM's into the raid at the critical point. After that little trick we always assigned a couple tanks on griefer duty to pull GM's away if idiots would drag them in. It's not conclusive but there were usually some that spawned outside so we always assumed it was targeted on everyone in the bowl.

Hm. I may be completely mistaken then. I did some brief internet searches and even Posi can't remember what it was but believes it had to do with the monsters in the zone.
https://twitter.com/ManyThingsDeck/status/938109984646209536

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Darth Fez wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

An important element to more interesting boss battles is that if something should be avoided, it needn't be a one-shot kill element. I think it also makes the characters and team feel more powerful if there's the opportunity to recover from a mistake.

I couldn't agree more. To me it would feel a lot more like the comics or movies if a big enemy attack took you down to almost-dead rather than dead, so you can react with a 'Whoa -- I better not let that happen again!'

Spurn all ye kindle.

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The smartest, toughest Boss

The smartest, toughest Boss is the one the Heroes never see. That's because he's always in Bermuda when the PCs show up.

Be Well!
Fireheart

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Fireheart wrote:
Fireheart wrote:

The smartest, toughest Boss is the one the Heroes never see. That's because he's always in Bermuda when the PCs show up.

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Fireheart

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Cinnder wrote:
Cinnder wrote:
Darth Fez wrote:

An important element to more interesting boss battles is that if something should be avoided, it needn't be a one-shot kill element. I think it also makes the characters and team feel more powerful if there's the opportunity to recover from a mistake.

I couldn't agree more. To me it would feel a lot more like the comics or movies if a big enemy attack took you down to almost-dead rather than dead, so you can react with a 'Whoa -- I better not let that happen again!'

+ 1

FIGHT EVIL! (or go cause trouble so the Heroes have something to do.)

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An idea that I've been

An idea that I've been kicking around for a really long time now is ... how would you handle Kaiju sized Giant Monster battles? You know ... this stuff ...

... except doing it in a City of Titans context (a miracle mile offshore) ...

And if we're dealing with stuff on this kind of scale ...

... then you start having problems ... even if you do something like this ...

... because of the differences in scale with the normal 1:1 human size (or superhuman size, if you prefer).

So how can you work normal sized humans into a Giant Monster battle and NOT have it turn into a big bag of hit points?
Well ...

You run the battle as being a series of "weak points" on the Giant Monster. The PCs are "small" in comparison to the Giant Monster, so they can go in and "do things" which then enable various weaknesses to be exposed ... allowing the PCs to inflict (significant) damage, which is then used to bring the Giant Monster down in stages. Take out enough "weak points" and you'll defeat the Giant Monster.

Simplest thing that I can think of for pulling this off would be to have an array of weak points all over the Giant Monster (think discrete target locations on it, if that will help), of which only a limited number will be accessible/target legal at any given time ... and that they'll "shift" on a somewhat fuzzy time scale (like every 10-20 seconds, so it isn't TOO predictable).

The PC challenge then is to FIND and TARGET these weak points ... then do enough damage to a single weak point to create an EXPOSURE through which damage (higher than 1 per hit) can be delivered to the Giant Monster. The Exposure area will only last until the next "shift" of weak points, meaning that the PCs are going to be obliged to keep moving and keep targeting and exposing new weak points around the Giant Monster in order to deliver damage to it in an "effective" manner. The result is a kind of Staged Penetration through randomized weak points for the PCs to deliver enough damage to the Giant Monster to defeat it.

The important thing with this setup is that teamwork is NOT REQUIRED ... but damn if it won't help make things a LOT easier!

Depending on the Giant Monster's ... posture ... you can wind up with a situation where you're either dealing with groundpounders being limited to an "ankle biter" role of trying to attack the weak points accessible from the ground when dealing with upright walkers ... or if the Giant Monster can be "toppled" or otherwise suffer Knockdown, the groundpounders could potentially have a lot more weak points be accessible from the ground without requiring 3D vertical movement in order to reach them.


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Yay, Red's on my side :p

Yay, Red's on my side :p

I'm more in favor on knockdowns over anklebiters, and that's definitely feasible for CoT.

Alternatively, flight rings ;)

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Redlynne wrote:
Redlynne wrote:

"Big monster!" I love that scene. Hands down, one of my favorite in the MCU.

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Big Monster! So 'kill' its

Big Monster! So 'kill' its pinkie-toe!

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There are games, where bosses

There are games, where bosses use their own minions to heal themselves.
Or create heavy impacts to use as knock-backs and for every hit player it gets bonus shield.
I think sometimes complex bosses are just combinations of simple actions. (Not always of course)

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Ahh a topic I would realy

Ahh a topic I would realy like to spread my thoughts.

Again we take the King of MMO´s, WoW, as an example. Bosses that have boring dps mechanics are.. boring. I always liked the bosses where you have special Teams that have to do stuff in the bossfight. I volunteered everytime to be in such groups. Best examples here are Siegecrafter Blackfuse and the current Boss G´Hun. (There are more, but I dont want to list them all) You had to design groups that do special stuff. A fight on a assembly line, that was actually cool.

Sorry its only a small text today. But theese are my thoughts about making Bosses fun. I could List Wildstar aswell but I can only remember the first Boss of that Matrix-Raid.. it was long time ago. I only now that this Boss was pretty hard. (Compared to WoW you had sprint, double-jump and dash AND you have to use it! Also everyone should have interrupter there, was part of the game. Shouldnt be copied though.)

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Jazzhands wrote:
Jazzhands wrote:

Ahh a topic I would realy like to spread my thoughts.

Again we take the King of MMO´s, WoW, as an example. Bosses that have boring dps mechanics are.. boring. I always liked the bosses where you have special Teams that have to do stuff in the bossfight. I volunteered everytime to be in such groups. Best examples here are Siegecrafter Blackfuse and the current Boss G´Hun. (There are more, but I dont want to list them all) You had to design groups that do special stuff. A fight on a assembly line, that was actually cool.

Sorry its only a small text today. But theese are my thoughts about making Bosses fun. I could List Wildstar aswell but I can only remember the first Boss of that Matrix-Raid.. it was long time ago. I only now that this Boss was pretty hard. (Compared to WoW you had sprint, double-jump and dash AND you have to use it! Also everyone should have interrupter there, was part of the game. Shouldnt be copied though.)

Gute Nacht und gute Schlacht!

The STF and ITF had fun bosses.I am sure that the devs know how to accomplish this.

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WoW’s full of examples of

WoW’s full of examples of complex boss fights. I think one of my favorites was the giant volcano elemental from the fire lands raid. When you attacked him you either targeted his left or right leg, and he moved based on how much damage each leg was taking. You had to control your dps split to steer him around the arena, leading him into environmental objects that would spawn. Been a while since I did it, so excuse me if I have the details wrong, but I believe the main point was that getting him to stomp them was the only way to remove little volcanos that would pop up at regular intervals and start doing arena wide damage to everyone. Too many of them up at one time and the healers would be unable to keep up. But there might have been more to it, I also seem to remember there being a stacked armor buff on him you had to whittle down somehow before you could start doing serious damage. Always struck me as a really cool idea, having to steer the boss as a group, and was really satisfying when you got your group working together well enough to pull it off. I also remember some frustration if the volcanos happened to spawn far apart regularly, making it much harder to keep the number of them down to manageable levels.

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In one of the earlier updates

In one of the earlier updates MWM talked about Momentum. That they will use that on every character. So, a boss might have it as well. Pair it with some other strategies (those you already mentioned sound good) and we get a pretty interesting boss fight.

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Kuraikari wrote:
Kuraikari wrote:

In one of the earlier updates MWM talked about Momentum. That they will use that on every character. So, a boss might have it as well. Pair it with some other strategies (those you already mentioned sound good) and we get a pretty interesting boss fight.

Bosses will have momentum, and I think most will change attack patterns, power usage, and/or "combat phase" based upon momentum level.

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Jazzhands wrote:
Jazzhands wrote:

Ahh a topic I would realy like to spread my thoughts.

Again we take the King of MMO´s, WoW, as an example. Bosses that have boring dps mechanics are.. boring. I always liked the bosses where you have special Teams that have to do stuff in the bossfight. I volunteered everytime to be in such groups. Best examples here are Siegecrafter Blackfuse and the current Boss G´Hun. (There are more, but I dont want to list them all) You had to design groups that do special stuff. A fight on a assembly line, that was actually cool.

I will counter with... G'Huun. I was part of the melee dps that only really beat on the mob that the MT was kiting around (alternating buffs) and the adds. I was never part of the crews that ran the thingy (essentially a hot potato) from one end to the other & dunk it in the trash can. I understand the mechanic, but I never participated because other people had characters that were better suited to run the potato. So, for me, G'Huun was just an alternating buff and boss HP bag beatdown (aka, not terribly exciting).

My point is that a fight like G'Huun can be interesting for a handful of people, but the rest of the raid never experiences that part. It boils down to a standard dps race for them.

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However these end up being

However these end up being done, it should always be clear what's going on and why. There should be unmistakable signs WELL ahead of time that someone off the front line is about to take damage, and doubly so if it is a significant amount of damage. "Floor turns green" by itself is not especially explanatory; maybe that's where everyone is SUPPOSED to stand, after all.

Also, there should always be room for individual improvisation and creativity. Significant amounts of randomness could help prevent so-called "perfect plans," and more importantly forestall the sorts of idiots who try to force such things onto others...

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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CallmeBlue wrote:
CallmeBlue wrote:

However these end up being done, it should always be clear what's going on and why. There should be unmistakable signs WELL ahead of time that someone off the front line is about to take damage, and doubly so if it is a significant amount of damage. "Floor turns green" by itself is not especially explanatory; maybe that's where everyone is SUPPOSED to stand, after all.

Also, there should always be room for individual improvisation and creativity. Significant amounts of randomness could help prevent so-called "perfect plans," and more importantly forestall the sorts of idiots who try to force such things onto others...

Best thing I can think of in regards to that kind of thing is having some raid boss style elements appear on tougher non raid boss enemies so that players can learn those elements in a safer and less punishing environment.

Like it'd be neat in a raid type mission... Dungeon? Whatever if the parts leading up to the boss taught you the boss's mechanics. That way when everyone gets there, even first timers, they'll all be on the same page and know what to do.

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."