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Problems with aesthetic decoupling?

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Brainbot
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Problems with aesthetic decoupling?

If this has been asked before I am sorry. Why is there no search function?

I have been reading about how powers will have the animation divorced from the power itself and something struck me.
Speaking just about the look of combat and not the game play, mechanics or style. When combat is done bad you get combat that looks sluggish or clunky but when its done good the combat is very smooth and cool to watch.

In bad game combat you see a few different things that can go wrong. Jumps in body position like when a character goes from arm outstretched in a punch to reeling back from being punched with no animation between the two. Long reset times where the character always goes to a stance position before it can use another attack. Some animations just not displaying because the speed of combat is quicker than the speed of the animations. To point out a few bad examples, the first mortal kombat, skyrim and any wrestling or MMA game.
In good combat you see each attack flow into the next without a long delay. A punch can lead into any other type of attack or reaction to being attacked without it looking like a movie with frames missing. Some examples would be most street fighter games, arkham asylum, bloodbourne and blade and soul.

In most games a characters animations are based on the ability used. Ryu has his animations and never uses Guile's animations so there is a small amount of variables in animations. It makes it easier to have one animation lead into another.

How is this game going to make the animations flow into one another smoothly without making the combat feel clunky or sluggish? Are we going to be able to pick animations on an individual basis? Or are we going to pick a theme and it will be applied to all actions the character does?

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Search function is at the

Search function is at the very bottom of each page--so easy to miss.

I don't think decoupling will be "absolute". You will have choices, but they will be limited enough for the devs to plan and work on how they fit and flow together.

At least that's my understanding. If I'm wrong someone let me know.

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Interesting question. Since

Interesting question. Since all powers would have to be animated for all character body frames in any case, I wonder if it (aesthetic decoupling) even makes a difference there.

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I recall seeing in one

I recall seeing in one discussion or other that the animations are based on bones, with the character's appearance on top of that. If that's the case, then the animations for all the various body sizes won't matter since it is merely the motions of the bones, which can be whatever size the player makes them to be without changing any of the animated motions. I suppose the devs would have to look at clipping armor if a player chooses particularly short body dimensions in specific spots, but then they may choose not to worry about it, since clipping armor during combat most likely won't be noticed.

Camelot Unchained is doing combat animations in an interesting manner, with an attack animation that is preceded by a "coming out of ready stance" and followed up by a "going back into ready stance". You can see this youtube video describing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiZWQ-pvEPA

I think you will find it addresses the OP post directly, although it is for a completely different game.


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OK...reply to everyone in one

OK...reply to everyone in one post.

Empyrean wrote:

Search function is at the very bottom of each page--so easy to miss.

I don't think decoupling will be "absolute". You will have choices, but they will be limited enough for the devs to plan and work on how they fit and flow together.

At least that's my understanding. If I'm wrong someone let me know.

Heh, missed the search completely. Thanks.
I don't expect decoupling to be absolute either. I was asking the method they will use to make animations flow smoothly and to what extent we will have decoupling. Will every ability be decoupled or do we choose a themed set? Can I take fisty punchy for my first ability and cluby crunchy for my second or do I choose the theme fisty punchy and all my abilities are now fisty punchy.

Radiac wrote:

Interesting question. Since all powers would have to be animated for all character body frames in any case, I wonder if it (aesthetic decoupling) even makes a difference there.

I am talking about the animations for abilities and how they will flow from one to another. I can't see how the character model is important to the question? Could you explain what you mean?

Huckleberry wrote:

Camelot Unchained is doing combat animations in an interesting manner, with an attack animation that is preceded by a "coming out of ready stance" and followed up by a "going back into ready stance". You can see this youtube video describing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiZWQ-pvEPA

I think you will find it addresses the OP post directly, although it is for a completely different game.

Sorry Huck, I spoke about this in the OP. This is how most games do combat animations. It isn't what I am asking.

Let me explain a bit better. Most games use this ready stance as the start and end position of a combat animation. It allows the designers to create animations without having to worry about how a character is standing when the animation starts because its always the same. If you throw a punch you go back to the same position before you throw the same punch again.
Some games get more ambitious and will have different start positions for animations based on the last animations end stance. For example, when you have your character throw a punch with a right hand throwing a second punch will be from the left. The ready stance is only used to show a state of idle. It gets more complicated when more than one ability is used in a row. Going from a punch to a kick for example. Both can be used from the idle stance or they can be used after the other without going to the idle stance in between. This allows designers to create animations that are more exciting visually. It gives the illusion of flowing combos from solitary abilities.

The trouble is that both get very difficult when you allow for more options in visuals.
In the game you used as an example the abilities are all based on sword and shield animations so there is a single ready stance. How would that sword and shield guy deal with throwing a fireball all of a sudden. What I am saying is different ability types have different ready stances. Shooting a gun will not use the same ready as swinging a sword. If the game allows a player to do both right after one another how do we make a ready stance for both without it looking odd or worse yet dull?
If MWM goes with the ambitious option and treats the end of an animation as the beginning of another then they have a lot of work cut out for them. They will need to animate the beginning of every ability animation from the end of every ability animation. Fire throwing animations that can be mixed with handgun animations which can be mixed with sword animations which can be mixed with a austin powers judo chop. They don't flow into one another naturally so MWM will need to make transition animations for each of those ability animations. Thats a lot of work.

I really expect the combat in this game to be exciting and fast paced with animations that look exciting and fast paced.
Thats why I ask how MWM is going to make the combat flow smoothly and if we choose animations for each power or as a themed set.

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What _I_ notice, in that

What _I_ notice, in that video, is that everything is moving quite slowly. Also, no Capoeira.

As for the OP, I believe the answer is that one's basic animation-form is set by the power-choice, but then, the 'extras', like glows, flames, projectiles, and other sorts of incidental animations are decoupled. Ultimately, the combination of choices in archetype, powerset, animations, effects, colors and whatever else, all contribute to the unique 'look' of each character.

One of the things that I enjoyed about combat in CoH is that I could cue up attacks and move, tactically, at the same time. I could start an attack and choose my Next attack and not have to worry about precisely timing my button-mashing. I could target a foe, activate an attack, switch targets to another foe and cue a second attack and, as long as the fight-geometry didn't interfere, both attacks would go through.

This meant that I spent most of my time thinking about tactics and movement. I thought about the next opponent, or the next Group of opponents, rather than watching each and every attack. The mental 'pacing' of the game was more relaxed.

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There are certainly several

There are certainly several parts of the animation system we will have to resolve, which is part of the iterative process.

One example can is "how many weapon models will a character be allowed carry and use? If more then 1, how will switching between them be resolved within the allotted cast-time frames? Now there are several solutions for these. It is more of a matter of incorporating one or more of them the "right way". These solutions can be applied to solve a large tange of potential issues the OP may be alluding to.

There may be that there are certain limitations for certain animation combinations (and the following is just for an example not a literal limitation we are currently applying): dual wielding weapons while also wanting to carry a shield is probably something that would be very difficult to resolve without letting things look really "messy".

But, in general, there will be themes to apply to an entire set, but also individual power customization. Part of this is that there will need to be multiple animations for the range of possibilities. The good part is, once there are a range of categories of possible animations, it gets easier to add more to the caregory than making more new animations.

This does mean that some people may couple animations into a wonderful ballet of awesomess while others may look more unconventional. This is no different than "look at that awesome costume" and "did they just hit random and then play?"

Basically, once put together it will all work. How well it looks once handed over to players is more of a matter of opinion. This isn't viewed as a problem but considered working as intended.


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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

This does mean that some people may couple animations into a wonderful ballet of awesomess while others may look more unconventional. This is no different than "look at that awesome costume" and "did they just hit random and then play?"
Basically, once put together it will all work. How well it looks once handed over to players is more of a matter of opinion. This isn't viewed as a problem but considered working as intended.

Personally, I really like this answer. Again, like costumes, some will craft the "look" of their combat to be what they want it to be, and some won't care. Some will make their combat flow a thing of beauty, and some may make quite an ugly combat style--perhaps even on purpose to fit their theme!

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Brainbot wrote:
Brainbot wrote:

What I am saying is different ability types have different ready stances. Shooting a gun will not use the same ready as swinging a sword. If the game allows a player to do both right after one another how do we make a ready stance for both without it looking odd or worse yet dull?
If MWM goes with the ambitious option and treats the end of an animation as the beginning of another then they have a lot of work cut out for them. They will need to animate the beginning of every ability animation from the end of every ability animation. Fire throwing animations that can be mixed with handgun animations which can be mixed with sword animations which can be mixed with a austin powers judo chop. They don't flow into one another naturally so MWM will need to make transition animations for each of those ability animations. Thats a lot of work.
I really expect the combat in this game to be exciting and fast paced with animations that look exciting and fast paced.
Thats why I ask how MWM is going to make the combat flow smoothly and if we choose animations for each power or as a themed set.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification, and I understand your concern.


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Tannim222 wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

One example can is "how many weapon models will a character be allowed carry and use? If more then 1, how will switching between them be resolved within the allotted cast-time frames? Now there are several solutions for these. It is more of a matter of incorporating one or more of them the "right way". These solutions can be applied to solve a large tange of potential issues the OP may be alluding to.

Thanks for replying.
Yes but is doing them the 'right way' a universal solution? If it is they woohoo. If not then its a lot of work.

Tannim222 wrote:

There may be that there are certain limitations for certain animation combinations (and the following is just for an example not a literal limitation we are currently applying): dual wielding weapons while also wanting to carry a shield is probably something that would be very difficult to resolve without letting things look really "messy".

Yeah I get that. I was talking more about the transition from one ability animation to the next than conflicting visuals though.

Tannim222 wrote:

But, in general, there will be themes to apply to an entire set, but also individual power customization. Part of this is that there will need to be multiple animations for the range of possibilities. The good part is, once there are a range of categories of possible animations, it gets easier to add more to the caregory than making more new animations.

So if I was to make a Ranger I could have each ability be a different theme. For example I could throw knives and shoot a gun and a bow and hit baseballs with a bat as each ability?

Tannim222 wrote:

This does mean that some people may couple animations into a wonderful ballet of awesomess while others may look more unconventional. This is no different than "look at that awesome costume" and "did they just hit random and then play?"

Basically, once put together it will all work. How well it looks once handed over to players is more of a matter of opinion. This isn't viewed as a problem but considered working as intended.

Fair enough. I am mostly concerned with the way one animation flows into another and not so much about how awesome they are together. To use your costume example, i don't care style as much as I care if the costume clips a lot.

So I guess what I am saying is I hope 'working as intended' doesn't mean 'everything is designed separate and making them work together is an after thought'.

Do you do the animations Tannim222?

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I believe Tannim is

I believe Tannim is Technology, rather than Art.

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Quote:
Quote:

Thanks for replying.
Yes but is doing them the 'right way' a universal solution? If it is they woohoo. If not then its a lot of work.

I didn't say there is a universal solution, but there are several possible solitions.

Quote:

Yeah I get that. I was talking more about the transition from one ability animation to the next than conflicting visuals though.

As was I. Sometimes those transitions may cause the conflict of the visuals.

Quote:

So if I was to make a Ranger I could have each ability be a different theme. For example I could throw knives and shoot a gun and a bow and hit baseballs with a bat as each ability?

Possibly, but then there may be a limit to the number of different weapon models that can be applied. But you might be able to throw knives, use a wrist mounted bow, and breath fire (just as an example).

Quote:

Fair enough. I am mostly concerned with the way one animation flows into another and not so much about how awesome they are together. To use your costume example, i don't care style as much as I care if the costume clips a lot.

That's you. Somone else may like that clipping or not cared as much, or found a usedul way to leverage the clipping. Not that there will be a ton of clipping issues ;)
But the same mindset applies to a animations. It is possible that there will not be perfect transitioning between every possible combination of moves. And as I said, there will likely be limits as to how many combinations (and certainly poor transitioning may be a factor in locking out certain combinations).

Quote:

Do you do the animations Tannim222?

No I am tech and gameplay. Which involves every aspect of how the game well plays. Specifically I am part of the team helping to design systems for game mechanics and have been involved of every iteration of power design. I understand how animations work, what tools we are using for them, and what the design scope for animations are.

Like everything else, there's a budget. Which isn't just funds, but time and (funds remated) resources. I never meant to imply resolving some of the animation issues that concern you are easy. Which is part of why the number of animations will be limited at launch and will be added to over time between needs for new power sets, npc design, and of course adding to the Avatar Creator.


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So for example, let's say I'm

So for example, let's say I'm a ranger and I have a quick, low damage, short recharge ranged attack. I normally emote that by reaching out with my right hand and blasting it out of that hand's palm, Iron Man style. Now let's say I have a cool looking sword in that hand. If and when I activate my "repulsor blast" attack, how does that end up happening? Do I quickly sheath the sword then blast, causing the power to effectively take more time to come off? Or does the sword just disappear instantly (which looks awful) and then I blast away using the normal amount of time? Or (and this one's my favorite) do I now shoot that repulsor out of the sword, using an animation that was written for the sword?

If the sword is now shooting the repulsor, that would either have to be an animation that the sword auto-replaces the ranged attack animation with by default, or else I had to go back and choose an animation to use for the "shoot repulsor out of sword hand while holding sword" list, which presumably comes with the sword in some way. Also, you COULD set it up such that all of the avatar's animations are, at all times, available or not available based on what "mode" you're in. If you're empty handed, that's one mode, and then every weapon you have will create and be it's own new mode. So when you're walking around in "sword in left hand" mode, your left-hand animations are all deactivated, but those are replaced by the "sword" animations that you got with the sword (and again, either the game knows what to replace with what as a default, or you will have chosen what to use in the power customization controls a priori).

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Another option would be to

Radiac, building on your thoughts...
Another option would be to animate the repulsor out of your other hand when your dominant hand is otherwise filled. This way it wouldn't matter what was in your hand. Even if you had a two-handed weapon, the animation would be the same because you would just be letting go with one hand and it would be treated as a one-handed weapon at that point until the animation was complete.
An obvious problem with this particular option would be assymetrical builds where someone wanted their blaster to come out of one hand only and designed their aesthetics accordingly with a blaster arm and a normal arm. Of course, if someone had a special blaster arm, why would they obstruct it by carrying a weapon in that hand in the first place?


I like to take your ideas and supersize them. This isn't criticism, it is flattery. I come with nothing but good will and a spirit of team-building. If you take what I write any other way, that is probably just because I wasn't very clear.
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Mr. Drupal wrote:
Tannim222 wrote:

I didn't say there is a universal solution, but there are several possible solitions.

Quote:

Yeah I get that. I was talking more about the transition from one ability animation to the next than conflicting visuals though.

As was I. Sometimes those transitions may cause the conflict of the visuals.

Quote:

So if I was to make a Ranger I could have each ability be a different theme. For example I could throw knives and shoot a gun and a bow and hit baseballs with a bat as each ability?

Possibly, but then there may be a limit to the number of different weapon models that can be applied. But you might be able to throw knives, use a wrist mounted bow, and breath fire (just as an example).

Thanks again for replying.
I think I see what you are saying now. Part of the way you will handle animation transition is by using animation tricks we discussed, ie the 'right way'. Another part is by limiting some animations that can be used in conjunction because they would not be worth the work required to do the 'right way'. I get that and its a good way to do it.

Tannim222 wrote:

That's you. Somone else may like that clipping or not cared as much, or found a usedul way to leverage the clipping. Not that there will be a ton of clipping issues ;)
But the same mindset applies to a animations. It is possible that there will not be perfect transitioning between every possible combination of moves. And as I said, there will likely be limits as to how many combinations (and certainly poor transitioning may be a factor in locking out certain combinations).

My point was that clipping in outfits, or bad transition animation, should not be the expected common result. I'm glad that you say they won't be here.

Tannim222 wrote:

No I am tech and gameplay. Which involves every aspect of how the game well plays. Specifically I am part of the team helping to design systems for game mechanics and have been involved of every iteration of power design. I understand how animations work, what tools we are using for them, and what the design scope for animations are.

Like everything else, there's a budget. Which isn't just funds, but time and (funds remated) resources. I never meant to imply resolving some of the animation issues that concern you are easy. Which is part of why the number of animations will be limited at launch and will be added to over time between needs for new power sets, npc design, and of course adding to the Avatar Creator.

Sorry if I made it seem like I was concerned about these things. I asked out of curiosity. This decoupling thing city of titans will have isn't something I have seen that often and never to the degree you guys are doing it. It seemed like a big task and I wanted to know how you planned to make it happen.

And I asked if you were animation cause I was hoping to ask more questions that got more specific. Things about frame rates, key frames, looping, multiple animations for the same ability, texture animation, particle effects, swapping, model rigging and so on. You might know the answers to those questions but probably won't find talking about it fun.

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I think if you truly want to

I think if you truly want to decouple the aesthetics from the mechanics, then you have to give every weapon you might have in hand at least one "ranged attack" emote and at least one"melee attack" emote. Further, those emotes have to be things that can be sped up or slowed down to accommodate different activation times. Lastly, when you choose to pull out a weapon of any kind, you;re doing so in full knowledge that you a re now using the weapon emotes for your attacks, whatever those are, instead of the usual ones. Now, having an emote for ranged attacks that has the sword in one hand while the other hand delivers the ranged attack is a fine emote for such. Presumably the sword comes with several good emotes for melee as well. On the other hand, a two-handed weapon like a rifle might have a few different ranged attack emotes and only one melee emote, which is "you hit the guy with the butt of the rifle". I could see that.

I think switching from "weapon stowed away" to "weapon equipped" would have to be treated like costume change action or something. I could also see making it work like a toggle power. If you have different weapon options, you could make all of their toggles mutually exclusive. So like, dual wielding short swords would be a handled as it's own thing, totally separate from single-handed sword, sword and shield, pistol, dual pistols, rifle, pistol and sword, pistol and shield, etc.

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Radiac wrote:
Radiac wrote:

On the other hand, a two-handed weapon like a rifle might have a few different ranged attack emotes and only one melee emote, which is "you hit the guy with the butt of the rifle". I could see that.

I'd prefer three: jab with the muzzle or bayonet, a vertical buttstroke (from port arms the butt comes up), and an overhand smash with the butt. Actually, what I'd really prefer is porting the quarter staff melee animations over wholesale for the rifle melee animations. ^_^

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Obviously, more is better.

Obviously, more is better.

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