I would prefer something a little less generic that has the same effect. Just make the occasional big event carry added XP, and I think that does it. Alien Invasions, Zombie Apocalypses, Giant Monster Attacks, etc would all fall under this category.

If we are going to get double XP weekends then please give the option to actually get the extra XP. Not all of us wants to level faster.

Events and such are fine since I can choose to not participate in them.

These kind of happenings are meant to mainly draw back existing players. Active Players pull back casual player friends that didnt login for many weeks.
As you might already know: You Gotta be In It (the game), to Win it (get them wanting to spend money on dodad's). If MWM wants to be a success, they will have to offer ingame rewards, rotating certain ones, or limiting them.

Things on the Rewards list might lean towards things that are Team/Raid oriented.. since those casual players probably* are only participating because a friend or two is having them tag along... most likely over the weekend, most likely. ;)

blacke4dawn wrote:

If we are going to get double XP weekends then please give the option to actually get the extra XP. Not all of us wants to level faster.
Events and such are fine since I can choose to not participate in them.

It could always be done similarly to how CO handles double XP weekends. You talk to a specific person who gives you a 4-hour double XP buff. Refresh as desired.

Lothic wrote:

Mendicant wrote:
It could always be done similarly to how CO handles double XP weekends. You talk to a specific person who gives you a 4-hour double XP buff. Refresh as desired.
That's one way to do it. I liked how CoH simply provided a permanent option to switch XP earning on or off as desired. I'm basically hoping CoT will provide the same option so that it could be used at any time.

Agreed. I was so happy when I no longer had to remain in permanent XP debt just to avoid out-leveling content.

A well-designed Auto-Exemplar system makes every mission playable, regardless of level.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Lothic wrote:

Sure but being able to manually control when I earn XP is not just a means to avoid out-leveling content. There are many other advantages that come with having this kind of simplistic yet powerful control. For instance perhaps I want to make absolutely sure a character stays at certain level for PvP purposes. Or perhaps there are RP reasons (like Terwyn mentioned) why you'd want to remain static level-wise. Basically I can't think of a good reason why having such an optional switch would be a BAD idea for the game... can you?

Oh, I agree that an XP On/Off switch is useful! Not suggesting that shouldn't be available, just that it's not the most flexible tool. Although... what might we earn in lieu of XP, if there's a limit on XP earning?

Be Well!
Fireheart

Lothic wrote:

Beyond that I don't see that it would be necessary to get anything else "extra" for choosing to earn XP or not. In most cases the benefit of having the optional switch should be "reward" enough. If you choose (for whatever reason) to turn off your own XP earning there's no mystically entitled requirement that says you must get something else to replace it. *shrugs*

+1

Lothic wrote:

That's one way to do it. I liked how CoH simply provided a permanent option to switch XP earning on or off as desired. I'm basically hoping CoT will provide the same option so that it could be used at any time.

Sure that is a nice option but imho it's almost as equally bad since it's an all or nothing deal, in that if you don't want to level too fast but still level then you'll have to constantly toggle it.

If they make 3 options for it (no XP, normal-rate only and allow "enhanced" rate) then it would more usable imo, and cover my concern. Don't gt me wrong, I would not be against a simple on-off switch in any way but if they are going to implement something like this then why not up the QoL a bit more?

blacke4dawn wrote:

Sure that is a nice option but imho it's almost as equally bad since it's an all or nothing deal, in that if you don't want to level too fast but still level then you'll have to constantly toggle it.

If they make 3 options for it (no XP, normal-rate only and allow "enhanced" rate) then it would more usable imo, and cover my concern. Don't gt me wrong, I would not be against a simple on-off switch in any way but if they are going to implement something like this then why not up the QoL a bit more?

Well I suppose if they wanted to get "extra fancy" with it they could give us a 0 to 100 percent slider that would let you set a percentage of XP you wanted to earn. That way if you wanted to earn "normal default" XP you'd set the slider at 100, if you wanted to say earn at half-speed you'd set it at 50 and if you wanted to stop earning completely you'd set it at 0. Otherwise I didn't really know what you meant by an "enhanced rate" of earning because there's no justification for being able to earn more than the default 100% amount of XP for any situation other than say during a "2x weekend" event.

But despite all that when you look at this situation with an eye for practicality this optional feature doesn't really need to be more than a simple binary on/off toggle. If an individual player wants to worry about "constantly toggling" it that'd be their prerogative - they could always keybind the option toggle to a key so that they could switch it on/off as constantly as they'd want. Remember CoH didn't even have a manual option switch for this at all for at least the first few years of the game so let's not get too carried away by making this overly complex. If all we get is a simple XP on/off toggle switch in CoT on Launch Day we'll be doing fine.

Assuming the content itself can;t just scale up with level, couldn't you just exemp down the characters if they outlevel it? In other words, if the game can accommodate players of any level doing any content, then turning off XP gain is probably not necessary. Of course, people might still want to level slower due to not wanting to outlevel friends, etc, but then that's not necessary either if you've got sidekicking and exemping. Lastly, even if you wanted to level slower to be able to afford better/more items, you ought to get faster rates of IGC earning at higher levels anyway, so really there's probably no really pressing need for the XP to be turned off, per se, as far as I can see. That is, assuming COT ends up having all the same awesome features like sidekicking and exemping that CoX had. Also, in CoT, gear migth not be level dependant like it was in CoX, so outleveling it might not be a problem.

To clarify, there are players who, for various reasons, don't want to 'have to' deal with higher-level opponents. They want to play for an extended time at the 'street' level, doing all manner of 'street' level content. They don't want to be the hero/villain that has to deal with Malta, or Knives of Artemis, or Portal Corps, or aliens from outer-space, like CoX characters who didn't freeze their levels at a lower point.

The Devs say 'Paths' will allow some control over these matters, but it's easier to simply stop or slow progression, so the character doesn't out-level their own Concept.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Grimfox wrote:

I stand neutral on the topic. It solves the problems outlined and I wont complain about using it. I believe in the KISS methodology and this certainly fits the bill. I think there are better ways through intelligent usage of an exemplar system that would also fix the problems.

An exemplar system would solve some but not all of the problems listed. If a person does not, for whatever reason, wish to level past level 19, then exemplaring is not the solution. Only avoiding gaining XP would solve that particular problem.

Well, you say 'multiple' reasons to shut off X-gain, but I don't really see them. I see RP and RP-related 'forcing' of the game content. IE, for character-concept and no other reason.

I recognize that one could use an XP-toggle to limit a character to a certain 'weight-class' in PvP. I recognize that one could use an XP-toggle to keep from out-leveling a less active partner. But both of these seem to have better solutions in Exemplar and Level-Pact systems. Those would work better _for me_ than the XP-toggle, which I would have to monitor myself.

I definitely don't see what Badges have to do with level. If level limits your ability to collect badges, then that's an issue of fundamental Game Design, not XP-gain.

I'm expecting better game design from CoT, so I don't envision an XP-toggle as a critical feature. However, given that some people want it, for 'reasons', I see no reason not to have it as a feature.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Fireheart wrote:

Well, you say 'multiple' reasons to shut off X-gain, but I don't really see them. I see RP and RP-related 'forcing' of the game content. IE, for character-concept and no other reason.

I recognize that one could use an XP-toggle to limit a character to a certain 'weight-class' in PvP. I recognize that one could use an XP-toggle to keep from out-leveling a less active partner. But both of these seem to have better solutions in Exemplar and Level-Pact systems. Those would work better _for me_ than the XP-toggle, which I would have to monitor myself.

I definitely don't see what Badges have to do with level. If level limits your ability to collect badges, then that's an issue of fundamental Game Design, not XP-gain.

I'm expecting better game design from CoT, so I don't envision an XP-toggle as a critical feature. However, given that some people want it, for 'reasons', I see no reason not to have it as a feature.

Be Well!
Fireheart

You say you "don't really see multiple reasons" to have a XP toggle switch yet you list several of them of without any problem whatsoever. Very curious.

First is the one you seem to "accept" - RP reasons. This obviously falls under the category of the player wants the character to stay at level X for WHATEVER REASON they want. Seems incredibly straightforward to me.

Then of course you mention the fact that some PvPers would want to make absolutely sure their characters stay at certain levels regardless of what the game would do to them auto-level wise. Again pretty simple and useful. You can trust the game to handle something like that but frankly I'd want the "insurance" of having a hard toggle to keep me safe.

Then you added another one I haven't even been mentioning directly in this thread - the one where one player would want to make sure they don't out level a partner. Thanks for adding that one to the conversation.

I'll also explain the badge situation to you (regardless if you actually collected badges in CoH or not). There were a number of "mission badges" in CoH that were tied to specific missions. If you accidentally outleveled those missions you might never get those badges unless you found somebody who still had them that you could tag along for. This was often frankly a pain in the ass and it would have been much easier (and ultimately did become much easier) once the CoH Devs were kind enough to add a manual XP toggle switch. And to be clear this was not a "failure of design" by the CoH Devs - they simply had a different mindset where it came to badge collecting. They for some reason thought it was "technically impossible" to have one character collect all the badges in the game whereas there were at least several dozen of us who proved Matt "Positron" Miller wrong and laughed in his face over it time and time again.

Then of course there's the more vanilla "classic" reason that there are simply folks who want to do every mission/trial available (regardless of badges) more for seeing all the "lore" aspects of the game than anything else.

Look for what it's worth no one is saying that CoT should not have good Flashback, Exemplar and/or Level-Pact systems. But even with those systems in place the CoH Devs realized that ADDING a XP toggle switch was still a positive idea for their game and went ahead and added it. I don't really care if you think it'd be a "lesser" solution for only one or two situations because clearly you are relatively misguided in that assessment. I want a game that gives me as many "tools" to work with as possible - if you choose not to use one of them that's your deal.

Fireheart wrote:

And you ignored the part where I mentioned better solutions to those other reasons.

Myself, I appreciate Tannim's response, laying out the what and the why, as seen from his insider vantage. You and I know nothing, so we have to speculate and argue without evidence.

Be Well!
Fireheart

Your failing is that it's only your "opinion" what's better or worse here. And I actually didn't even "ignore" what you consider to be better - I said I WANT things like Flashback, Exemplar and/or Level-Pacting to be in CoT.

But you only want what you consider to be the ONE BEST system of solution for this. I know enough about CoH/CoT to know that I want multiple tools so that if my OPINION on what works best is different than yours I'll have the OPTION to handle things the way I want. The CoH Devs saw the wisdom of having as many options as possible in this regard by ADDING a XP toggle switch to the game after they already had all those other so-called "better" solutions in place and it's good to see Devs like Tannim ALSO see the wisdom in that.

Fireheart wrote:

Lothic wrote:
Your failing is that it's only your "opinion" what's better or worse here. And I actually didn't even "ignore" what you consider to be better - I said I WANT things like Flashback, Exemplar and/or Level-Pacting to be in CoT.
Perfectly correct. I do try to express these things from my point of view, as my opinion. I try to avoid making any sweeping statements, or implying my suggestion is the only solution to the problem.
My one true objection to the XP-toggle is my sense that the purpose of the game is to go through it, and blocking one's advancement seems like not playing the game. Of course, I recognize that not everyone plays the game the same way. But I still have cognitive dissonance over deliberately not gaining rewards for playing the game.
Be Well!
Fireheart

I get it..

to paraphrase:
"If i'm not Advancing Vertically, doesn't mean i couldn't advance horizontally, or perhaps tangentially."

;)

Plus, neither Flashback, Exemplar, not Level-Pacting systems would provide the one simple function that an XP switch would. Guaranteeing that a character would never go past a certain level.
A flashback system, by its very nature, assumes that the character has passed the given level and wishes to return to it. (Or to a level appropriate for a given section of content)
Likewise, an Exemplar system does not prevent a character from leveling, it simply allows a character to reduce their level to a prior one. (And would this system require a second character to Exemplar to?)
And a Level-Pact, while great for keeping a pair of characters at the same level, is also not intended to prevent a character from surpassing a given level. In fact, gaining XP is kind of the point.

And there is the consideration that, at least in the way that they worked in CoH, characters undergoing Exemplar and Flashback were still more powerful than they actually had been at that level originally.
While Exemplaring, you still had access to all of your powers, even if their effectiveness was reduced. And you had more enhancements slotted for those powers.
While in a Flashback, you only had access to the powers you had at that level, but you still had the extra enhancements.
This might work differently in CoT, but let's not make the mistake of thinking that flashing back or exemplaring is going to make the character identical to how they would have been if they'd never leveled up in the first place.

SpaceMoose wrote:

Heck, I had the XP on/off switch as a keybind in CoH. I think it was Ctrl-X.

Yep I even mentioned this was possible to do [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/106504#comment-106504]earlier in this thread[/url].

Ironically while I had what seemed like around 50,000 keybinds in CoH I don't think I ever keybound the XP toggle myself. I used the toggle for a few characters a few times but it wasn't a "constantly tinker with it all the time" kind of thing at least for me. Of course that was just me - ultimately how much I used the XP toggle doesn't really matter because as I've been stressing all along in this thread it was an OPTIONAL feature that (while being optional) uniquely solved multiple related issues that no other specific feature in the game addressed quite the same way.

Could we live without an XP toggle in CoT? Probably. But considering how much nicer it was in CoH AFTER they gave us the toggle I'd be completely amazed if it didn't appear in CoT.

harpospoke wrote:

Wow.....makes me appreciate how hard it must be to develop a game when debates arise over a proposed feature which is completely optional to use.

If the feature is very hard to implement and takes time away from developing other parts of the game, I could see a downside. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be any harm to it.

This is what happens when potential future players have literally YEARS to nitpick the virtual details of a game that has yet to even make it to alpha testing (as far as we know). It's the computer gaming equivalent of arguing [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F]how many angels can dance on the head of a pin[/url]. ;)

But as you imply it also highlights the fact that these are the kinds of never-ending design decisions that the Devs themselves have to address in some fashion which tends to explain why games like this still take years to produce.

If we get some double [something] weekends, I would recommend that they would be giving an option, double XP, or, double [Influence, or what replaces it], or, improved drop of: loot/salvage/recipes/enhancers/whatever... With more options, there will be fewer complaints, except, of course, "Why isn't there a double Everything day/weekend/etc". ...

A reason for remaining at a certain level is lack of resources to improve your Character. Especially if the resources needed are only available in sufficient quantities if you "Farm". There is another biggie, wanting to do content only available at a certain level. Sometimes there will be several different missions that are available, each will, if you gain the XP, will level you past the maximum level to do them, and, you want to do them all... There is another, to have something to do while waiting for your 'Rikti Mother-ship raid' team to assemble, or, to stay at the same level as your friends, who have less time available to play than you do, i.e. single ppl or childless couples vs parents, married or single...

Garrilon wrote:

As for an XP toggle, I think it is a great idea, and I have a suggestion, have it so that instead of just turning off XP gain, it helps in other ways, like the options written just minutes ago in my previous post, 'Cash' , better drops of goodies, selected drops of goodies, special options, earning an alternate costume, etc. ... Maybe implemented by a menu or a 'multi-position switch'... Really depends on how the interface works on the players side...

Well CoH provided for a second [url=http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/The_Players%27_Guide_to_the_Cities/User_Interface/Options_Window#Miscellaneous_Options]optional XP related toggle[/url] (separate from the general XP on/off toggle we've been focusing on) which dealt with what you wanted while being Exemplared. Either you could still earn XP normally while Exemplared or you could choose to get no XP in exchange for double the INF. This then provided you a choice if you were less than level 50 or allowed you to "permanently" earn double the INF while Exemplared if you were already level 50 because obviously level 50 characters no longer needed/earned XP.

I had no problem with this "earn XP or double INF" toggle because it required people to join teams (via Exemplaring) to help out other players. But to be honest I think there's little justification to have any kind of "get this OR that" type of toggle without any other condition. The general XP on/off toggle would not give you the option to get "something else instead of XP" so as what amounts to a self-imposed penalty it's fairly well balanced on its own. The other toggle I just mentioned required you to be Exemplared so you had to give up being solo to get the benefit of double INF. The idea of being able to have something like a "earn XP or double INF" toggle WITHOUT being forced to do anything else is probably too much of a benefit to be allowed - gold farmers would abuse/exploit that far beyond what the Devs would likely tolerate.

Garrilon wrote:

This game is supposed to have a lot of common ground with all sorts of players, to be inclusive, not exclusive... In all it is supposed to be fun. There are, I am sure, places on the internet to argue as much as you want, debate issues, but, please, not here!!

Where else are we supposed to debate/argue the merits of various features for CoT except on the forums for CoT? Would you have asked the Founding Fathers of the United States to debate the contents of the Constitution in Nepal because places like New York and Philadelphia were supposed to be "fun" places with no constructive dissent?

Mendicant wrote:

When, in the course of superhuman events, it becomes necessary....

Very good!

Is it out yet?

To be honest, I'd rather we NOT have 2x XP times in City of Titans. It's just a gimmick to get people to play at specific times.

Give me a game that I just don't want to stop playing ... ever. Then I'll look forward to logging in every single chance I can get.

I respectfully disagree with Red in the general sense that I like the idea of having events and stuff to prompt people to play the game again. Maybe not Double XP Weekends (I mean, who owns TWO machines running Win XP anymore? :), but other stuff, like Weekly Strike Targets, Alien Invasions, Giant Monsters running amok, zombie uprisings, etc would be good.

I think it goes back to the J.C. Penny experiment. Getting rid of sales and just selling stuff for reasonable prices every day, though it sounds good, doesn't actually prompt anyone to buy something at a specific time, and as such they never buy anything. You need to deliver the message, frequently but not continually, that now is a good time to play the game again. Otherwise people get into a rut, and they're like "I didn't log on yesterday, I'm not logging on today, as there's nothing new or different to do".

If you put a sign in your store that says "Magic Tournament on _date_" people will show up on that day, for that tournament, plus maybe buy other stuff. If you just put up a sign that says "People are free to use our tables to play Magic any time they want" nobody shows up. Ever.

If you want a party atmosphere, you need to throw a party. A party is a specific event that happens at a specific time and place for a specific reason. That means having a reason for a party (the invasion or event in question, i.e. the purpose to which people are making time in their schedule to show up at that time and place you specify), invitations (advertising it so people know it's happening), etc. I think a lot of people log on during these sorts of events not because they care AT ALL about the event itself, but because they expect people in general will be on doing that, and they want to hang out, maybe hook up with some friends and maybe do some other stuff, if there's time.

I don't think it's possible to have a party atmosphere in the game all the time. It might be possible to have a launch party for new content rolling out that lasts several days, like spring break, or to have different groups of people showing up for their own reasons, like self-started Rikti Mothership Raids and Hamidon Raids, but those things were never just "always running" types of things, despite the fact that anyone could try to start one at any time. Somebody had to want to start a Raid, and they had to get enough people together to do it successfully. That required planning on the part of the players, which people aren't always going to do, so you can't expect it or rely on it being a continuous draw. Nothing will be a continuous draw. People aren't drawn to play in a continuous manner. They log on, play, then log off. It happens in chunks. What you need to do is keep giving people new and original reasons to log on again. When there isn't new content helping you do that, I would personally rely on things like Double XP Weekends, Alien Invasions, maybe have a TF or Raid or something that gives better than normal rewards for some period of time, etc. Maybe not as good at drawing people in as new content is, but better than nothing, and better than just raising the XP during normal play time to levels people say they like.

Okay, my understanding of the J.C. Penny thing might be suspect, but I stand by the remainder of my argument. I think in this game, and in MMOs in general, it helps to have periodic prompting to play, with each prompt having some specific hook to try to appeal to people. Even when it doesn't appeal to me, it might appeal to the player base in general enough that there will be more people on playing, and THAT is appealing to me. Even when its something like "Open a new account and get some additional free Stars", I'm not going to open a new account, but if it causes a lot of newbies to start playing, I'll be there doing missions and stuff with them and maybe even make a new character to do the low level content with them.

And to be sure, there will always be people who end up not being able to take advantage of the time window you're carving out for your sale or event, and they'll be mad about it. But you can't please everyone all the time, and the fact that some small percentage of your players missed out shouldn't prevent you from doing such things. Having promotions at times that are bad for the majority of people or even like 40% would be bad, but I think devs are smart enough to time this sort of stuff appropriately enough for good effect.

Also, Segev and I are similar in the sense that were "search and acquire" shoppers. At the risk of sounding sexist, this is not uncommon among men. The women I talk to at work tell me they'll go into a store, spend an hour rummaging around for nothing terribly specific, but maybe end up buying something if it looks like a good bargain to them, then go back again later just in case they missed something. In other words, women enjoy the act of shopping itself in ways men generally do not. I've heard theories of evolution that explain this by arguing that women, for a large part of prehistory, mostly foraged while men mostly hunted, and as we evolved we grew to adapt to those activities. The game show Wheel of Fortune, when it first came out, had a part where the winner would have to spend their monetary winnings on prizes chosen from a sort of showcase of possible prizes. This was intended to make some part of the show similar to shopping, to appeal to women. The idea had come from the producer's wife at the time, according to a thing I saw on TV about it.

Just pick a store that has the lowest prices on Many Items, and don't rely too much on Sale items.. too much! ;D