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oh... I see.... well I do know what 4 colour means... it was term used for a certain type of comic that mainly used 4 colours and the mixing of which to create different colours.... the 3 primary colours of red, blue and yellow and green, though I'm not so sure about the last one... but it mostly refers to the story telling style of that era where both heroes and villains weren't depicted so much as actual people but rather saints and monsters respectfully, though I am oversimplifying it a lot.... So it doesn't quite apply... still however after reading the parts about no Russian and stuff like that.... yeah... that kind of stuff shouldn't happen in game... when I think super villain terrorist I was thinking more "load up a dam somewhere with explosives because " demands it!!!" then have the heroes burst in and try to stop me" not "shoot and kill all these people over here who can't possibly stop me just because they come from a country I'm not from".... but I don't think the OP was either.... all he mentioned in the original post was trying to destroy things for a certain cause not killing a bunch of defenseless citizens right off the bat.... then you said something about this being 4 colour and I was saying that no it's not, it's based off more modern super hero comics just like the game it's taking inspiration from.... I did assume you where talking about taking out the option to play a villain which I admit I shouldn't have done.... and I am honestly sorry about that part... also? Didn't know I was necroposting... this was on the first page and usually it's just the 2nd page stuff that's to old to post on....
not my video just one I lke ===> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6-SdIN0hsM
[CENTER][URL=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm][IMG]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/24.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/CENTER]
Its close but I was referring to the actual simplification of the mature elements by making them 'cartoony' for lack of a better word. CoH did this by including a drug trade but instead of heroine, crack or cocaine they used Superadine.
That's an arguable point as art is a interpretive medium....for me 4 color comics portrayed mature elements in simple black and white terms...for you it was the characters were portrayed in black and white terms. The simple fact is...CoT is probably going to portray many of the mature elements in simplistic ways (the elements will be simplistic not the actual stories). So the term fits by that metric... at least to me.
I really don't see how the bold parts here ...
Can be seen the way you see them. I mean indiscriminate acts of violence against the public is pretty clear. And real life terrorist is clear as well. Even when given a chance to amend this later he did not.
As I said, to get the teen rating the game will follow the simplification of mature elements that 4 color comics did. Drugs become Supradine, death means the guy falls over and fades away, you defeat someone with a flamethrower and not cause them horrible scars or kill them.
I don't agree that the game is based off of modern comics...that's what you as a player brings to the game through your interpretations of what happens in the game. What they actually show and explain is of a 4 color style.
No problem, but I do agree, the forums have been fairly quiet lately. I think we are all just waiting for word of the CC being released.
How are we not going to be able to play terrorists? I'm not fond of playing villains anyways, so likely wouldn't effect me, but I thought part of the game plan was to play villains and that means hurting civvies, like the Joker does all the time :p
The same way we didn't in City of Villains.
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[font=Pristina][size=18][b]Hail Beard![/b][/size][/font]
Support [url=http://cityoftitans.com/comment/52149#comment-52149]trap clowns[/url] for CoT!
As I've said before (many times) The rules of a genre describe the universe, but they don't apply equally to everyone in the universe.
So this can easily be a 4 color world even if it includes a lot of elements that might at first seem out of place.
The real question is not "do these things belong in this genre?" but [b]"do they belong in a game with an E rating?"[/b]
And just as seriously, is it even possible to prevent this kind of thing from being there is a world where players will have so much creative input?
Frankly I think the E rating will not stand, without a LOT of policing effort by the devs.
Now let me add that terrorism itself isn't really a problem.
Villains have a lot of different motivations and a lot of them are sympathetic.
and they ALL resort to violence because: That's Really What This Kind Of Game Is About
Superheroes hardly ever fight white collar criminals
[b]The real questions are:
1) Are how extreme can the violence be?
2) What can we do to civilians?
3) Will we see Islamic extremism?
4) Will we even be able to show villains who look like muslims?[/b]
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
[b]Point: Rating[/b]
The target rating is T for Teen, not E. There's a substantial enough difference in topics and content to make this distinction.
Additionally, there is the requisite "Player content is not rated, blah, blah" that covers activities by players, but there will also be certain things outlined in the EULA (or whatever we use for this) that would cover certain things that would involve reporting for lude and lascivious actions by the players including names and public conversations (PM's are generally the domain of the individual players except when it turns into harassment).
(This is primarily not in the realm that is not Composition except where it affects the stories that we can tell. Take all other information that I said in the context that I am not involved in making such documents or other statements, but am summarizing points from other discussions.)
[b]Point: Religion[/b]
We will not have any religion depicted in the game except where required by the setting.
There will be a few churches, because this is set in New England; there are churches everywhere in New England, and to not have them would be rather jarring.
There will be crosses and angels and such in the cemetery; to not have them would be rather jarring, since it is an accepted concept and expected for most cemeteries.
As far as including religious concepts in the stories, that's a recipe for disaster. There will inevitably be a mistake according to one branch or another of the associated religion which would cause a major issue, or there would be some religion that would feel slighted for not being included. There are many different ways that incorporating religion could go wrong. The best way for us to avoid the controversy is to not include it except where necessitated by the setting.
(This topic is solely within the purview of Composition, and therefore what I have stated is finite and this position has been set in stone.)
Take from this what you will.
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Conundrum of Furballs
[color=#ff0000]Composition Team, Staff Writer[/color]
[img]http://missingworldsmedia.com/images/favicon.ico[/img]
There is no such thing as a generic or stereotypical Muslim appearance.
+1 (Trillion)
Crowd Control Enthusiast
Ever do a Google image search for Muslim People?
There IS a stereotypical Muslim appearance, whether there should be or not.
And everyone recognizes it when they see it.
Stereotypes are not always accurate but they always exist.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I am an atheist but have looked at many belief systems the world over.
A google search will show muslims that are in the news currently....those coming from the middle east. They are currently the most vocal and visible but they are not remotely the majority of muslims. It is fallacy to assume they are strereotypical muslims.
Those who claim to know what a muslim looks like will often mistake Shia Islam as typical muslims when they make up roughly 10% of the muslim population. The reason why they make this assumption is because almost all of the Shia Islam people are from the middle east. Essentially what they are saying is I can recognize someone who lives in the middle east...not someone who is muslim. The differences between Shia Islam and Muslims are pretty big so lumping them together would be like lumping Mormons with Christians or Orthodox Judaism with Judaism. Whats more...Shia Islam has branches and not all those who observe its practices are those you see on the news.
Here is just a small sample of famous people who are muslims
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Converts_to_Islam.png[/img]
As you can see.... they don't exactly look similar now do they.
Even the misconception of muslim dress is wrong.... not all wear the Kufi or Hijabs.
Even if the assumptions you made were true they only serve to further the ignorance and bigotry on this topic and I don't think that's what you want to do Paladin.
Stereotypical Muslims look like Sikhs. And Zoroastrians. And Hindu. And Buddhists. And Christians, even. (Go look up the Copts.)
They're brown. They're other. And when you're just trying to identify them for purposes of hate and/or destruction, you don't need to go more than skin deep. Humanity has always been its own worst enemy.
But what do they really look like? Joe Schmo. Just another guy trying to do a job, get paid, and go home to their family.
[i]Has anyone seen my mind? It was right here...[/i]
IslandTrevor
I understand what you're trying to say and it's fine
but you clearly don't know what a stereotype is.
I'm not saying the stereotype is accurate, or defending it in any way.
But it exists and it's images that fit the stereotype that are going to offend someone.
The problem with this is that there actually are a lot of Muslims who do fit the stereotype
And a lot of them have been in the news for doing some really bad stuff
Some people will want to use them as villains because it's a realistic depiction of an evil in the modern world
Other people will say that using such images as villains only feeds misunderstanding and anti-islamic hatred. After all millions of Muslims who fit the stereotype have never hurt anyone, and it's a shame to vilify them because of the terrorists.
Personally I see both sides as having a valid point:
You want to depict ninjas you make them Japanese
You want to depict gangsters you make them Italian
You want Nazis you make them German
You want cocaine smugglers their usually hispanic
You want terrorists you make them look like Stereotypical middle eastern Muslims.
The only way to avoid racism entirely is to never allow realistic/human villains.
Hey that's what Dungeons & Dragons does.
Star Wars does it too but they still get accused of racism.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
For me, at least one point in time, a terrorist was pale skinned and ginger haired who calls everyone Paddy with an Irish accent[1]. But if you want a "middle eastern" terrorist, then yes, you could go for the arab dress style.
However, as soon as you do that, does that mean that the ingame American are grossly obese who only seem to care about money, believe that you need a passport to go to another state, and that Europe is a country? I mean, we are playing to stereotypes here right.
But the thing is, terrorist is going to be a "push button" issue here. It can quickly blow up in your face, UNLESS you find a way to lighten it up. Family guy did this by lampooning the Muslim terrorist angle in one of their episodes with a LOT of comedy in the opening segment.
[1] Yes, I am referring to the IRA here.
I wasn't saying we should be playing to stereotypes,
I was saying that this is one particular stereotype that people are going to want to use.
And not without reason
It's a potential problem
relevant to this discussion
and we need to know how the devs mean to handle it.
I doubt there will be many players who would want to play as a stereotypical middle eastern terrorist
Even players who like being villains would probably shy away from that
I'll actually be surprised if anyone wants to play as something like that
BUT Will we see them as bad guys in the game?
even if not in official content they're likely to come up in player made missions.
Will such missions be deleted, by the devs?
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
I know perfectly well what a stereotype is. This isn't a stereotype...its pure 'stick your head in the sand' ignorance. Just because you and whatever limited view you have of 'everyone' want to consider something a stereotype does not mean you are right. The majority of the world does not share the Fox News or Donald Trump view of Muslims that you apparently get your preconceptions from. This is nothing more than presenting a western centered view of the world while minimizing fault with a softer language like 'stereotype' when it is clearly bigotry.
Showing your hand a little here. Muslims are not a race. This is not about 'racism'. Its not about stereotypes. Its egocentric ignorant bigotry... and you are defending it.
If you had used this phrase instead of Muslim I would have had no issue.
Who knows, but widen this up: Will the developers deleted player made content if they find that it crosses some lines: racism/extreme pornography/violence towards minors for example
But that is another topic for another day.
Dear Islandtrevor
You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what I think and where I get my Ideas.
and your assumptions are both unfounded and offensive.
Please note that I never said these stereotypes were accurate.
I did not defended them.
I only asked how the devs will deal with them when they appear in player made content.
And the only source I cited was a Google image search.
Which by the way was only to prove that such a stereotype exists and certainly not suggest that it's accurate or proper.
And by the way it IS racism to assume that anyone who looks middle eastern is a Muslim.
A lot of followers of other faiths and no faith come from that region.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
Yup...I am ...and yup it is. That was the intent.
Please note that just because the small world you live in share an opinion of something does not make it a stereotype. Using soft language like that does not convey the truth of what is really being said.
I did not say anything about this mysterious 'them'. I said you were defending the soft language that absolves this ignorant view. Which you are.
I have no issue with anyone wanting to play a villain who is a Muslim, a Christian or a freaking muppet. I have an issue with lumping what is probably the most diverse group in the world next to the entire human race into a narrow politically motivated view and then waving it off as just another stereotype.
And I said that the reason why those images come up is not because its a stereotype...but because those are currently the most viewed images posted to the internet due to news stories and your extremely open search parameters will only show theses images. Try just typing in 'drug smugglers' and then argue how the stereotype for them is Hispanics. Funny how the majority of those images are white. What does that do to your arguments? How about typing 'ninja' in the search bar for google images? Almost every picture is a cartoon devoid of race... does that mean the stereotype for ninja is a cartoon? The use of google images does not support your claims...it only shows that you don't understand how search engines work.
And its ignorant to assume every muslim is middle eastern. That is what I am arguing and its a very big distinction. I never assumed you were racist, bigoted or ignorant. I said and will continue to say that 'stereotype' is sugar coating and a mockery of an important issue. Its flat out bigotry... and dangerous bigotry at that. You even having to ask if that level of bigotry will be allowed in player made content is frightening to me.
You don't have to agree with my opinion but I doubt I will respond to anything more you have to say on this topic until you show you understand why I feel the way I do.
I'm really not interested in why you feel the way you do.
I asked the devs a question and you have been unreasonable because for whatever reason, you WANT to take offense where none was intended.
That makes YOU the kind of person I no longer want to converse with
Good Bye
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse/pub/3185/Crusader-Game-Books
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC48O9dPcNVdeyNM4efAvX6w/videos?view_as=subscriber
The way I see it, most of what counts as a "villain" in the comic book/superhero world are already "terrorists", or at least would be by our modern standards. What makes a guy in a metal mask who's threatening entire nations with a giant laser cannon on the moon any different from a guy in a ski mask threatening entire nations with stolen nukes aside from the obvious difference in realism? The Joker, in all of his forms, would definitely be considered a terrorist if he were a real person, and Dr. Doom, being a tyrannical dictator in his own land who commits crimes in other countries in order to further his own goals and ideals, could be compared to people like even Saddam Houssein, of course with some significant differences in ideological details.
My point is, if you want to play as a terrorist, all you have to do is just play a villain without all the over-the-top maniacal laughter and grandiose monologues. I'm pretty sure that whatever villain missions there are wouldn't be out-of-character for a terrorist living in a world where mutants and magic exist anyway.
This is why I strongly feel terrorism should not be in the official game and should probably be restricted in player made content. Its far to complex an issue to be properly addressed without misleading or misrepresentative arguments being presented.
This thread should be locked as the official word from the devs has already been stated and nothing good will come from the thread from here on out.
I agree with the above in terms of the morality of such content, but I meant specifically in terms of political motivation and more realistic style of content. You see this often in certain types of sci-fi, thriller, crime and superhero fiction, so I would like to see it represented here. But the issue has been addressed by mod in this thread, and I've said all I have to myself.
"TRUST ME."
Speak for yourself.
Not from you, certainly, from what I've seen. Since you have nothing to add, then by all means, excuse yourself as far away as possible. Now.
"TRUST ME."
Of course you haven't seen it....you stuck your head in the sand and refused to actually understand the depth of the topic. You misuse terms like morality and don't understand what terrorism is then toss blame at me for not agreeing with your misguided view of things. Now your proving this topic is one that deserves to be locked with yet another hypocritical jab at me.
So.....No, I won't 'excuse myself'. I will continue to offer my thoughts on the topic until it is closed.
This idea that 'most of what counts as a "villain" in the comic book/superhero world are already "terrorists", is flat out wrong. Most of the villains in comics seek personal gain....be it wealth, revenge or power. A terrorist seeks political/religious change. They can share similar tactics but that does not make them the same. Its the motive and goals behind the action that defines them.
A bank robber who threatens hostages to escape is not the same as a terrorist who threatens hostages to get the military to withdraw from their country. A mad bomber who threatens to set off explosives in a church unless he is paid is different than a terrorist who threatens to set off explosives in a church unless laws are changed. The terrorists goals have a greater impact to the whole of society than those of the bank robber or mad bomber.
That is why your terrorist path is a bad idea. People like you simply do not understand the concept at all.
Furthermore you will see situations like the comments that Paladin made that inadvertently (this was not his intent but was still the result) imply that terrorism and Muslims go hand in hand. People who don't understand the topic properly will just as unintentionally spread bigotry. Few players will consider the far reaching ramifications before tackling the subject...let alone be able to properly express the intricate detail with the tools provided. It will just lead to misunderstandings and upset people.
Terrorism is too complex a topic for a teen game.
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